Monastaries, Abbeys, Monks and Nuns

[Me_]

It doesn't bode well that Paradox is now neglecting critical aspects of the core gameplay in favour of money-grubbing. I can understand it from a buisness perspective, but Paradox has got three DLC's worth of money out of us, can we now see something thrown back into the core gameplay?

Like the factions, retinues, ambitions or autocephaly and pentarchy? I suppose we could.

Which brings up the second point: It was blatantly glossed over in the first place. A game called Crusader Kings that simply glosses over the role the church played during this period.

Well, it's Crusader Kings, not bishops. Besides arguing that some features should be free is just silly. You already paid for the work their did. How could they possibly be compelled to provide further content without being rewarded for more work? By what right or authority? Public opinion? They are free to ignore it if they so desire, they are not politicians or charity.

I'm quite certain most of the complainers would not bat an eylid if they made an expansion pack rather than DLC. It's all in the name - the old system was no fairer than the current one. Expansion packs only expanded core gameplay in exchange for cold hard cash.

 

[Illanair]

Republics and Muslims, not related in the slightest to European feudal lords. The Church, absolutely integral. Paying for DLC for that would be the same as buying BF3 and being forced to pay to drive the tanks.

Are we reading the same history books? I could swear both were integral to European history - particular the christian crusades - which IS the theme of the game, not feudal lord simulator 2012.

 

[DominusNovus]

It doesn't bode well that Paradox is now neglecting critical aspects of the core gameplay in favour of money-grubbing. I can understand it from a buisness perspective, but Paradox has got three DLC's worth of money out of us, can we now see something thrown back into the core gameplay?

All the mechanics in the game have been enabled for free, you just have to pay if you want to play as them. They massively expanded the mechanics for the eastern churches, for republics, for muslims, and even the eastern empire, and technically, all that was included in just the patches.

 

[unmerged(149861)]

Like the factions, retinues, ambitions or autocephaly and pentarchy? I suppose we could.



Well, it's Crusader Kings, not bishops. Besides arguing that some features should be free is just silly. You already paid for the work their did. How could they possibly be compelled to provide further content without being rewarded for more work? By what right or authority? Public opinion? They are free to ignore it if they so desire, they are not politicians or charity.

I'm quite certain most of the complainers would not bat an eylid if they made an expansion pack rather than DLC. It's all in the name - the old system was no fairer than the current one. Expansion packs only expanded core gameplay in exchange for cold hard cash.

All of which were not in the base game at start, and one of which you need to pay to get access too.

And are you saying that you're content with the Pope being a randomly generated nobody most of the time?

Are we reading the same history books? I could swear both were integral to European history - particular the christian crusades - which IS the theme of the game, not feudal lord simulator 2012.

Erm, the game was basicly marketed as feudal lord simulator. That's why it's not called Jihad Sultan.

All the mechanics in the game have been enabled for free, you just have to pay if you want to play as them. They massively expanded the mechanics for the eastern churches, for republics, for muslims, and even the eastern empire, and technically, all that was included in just the patches.

Still nothing about the papacy though, and that's core gameplay no matter how you try to distort it.

 

[Illanair]

Erm, the game was basicly marketed as feudal lord simulator. That's why it's not called Jihad Sultan.

No - It's called

Crusader
Kings

See what I did there?

 

[unmerged(149861)]

No - It's called

Crusader
Kings

See what I did there?

Straight from the PI page on CK 2

Europe is in turmoil. The lands are fragmented into petty fiefs, the emperor struggles with the Pope, and the Holy Father declares that all those who go to liberate the Holy Land will be freed of their sins. Now is the time for greatness.

Increase your lands and fill your coffers, appoint vassals, battle traitors, introduce laws while interacting with hundreds of nobles, and create the most powerful dynasty of medieval Europe.
A beleaguered king will always have friends to support him. But beware, as your rule and realm may find trouble when a loyal vassal becomes a bitter rival. Stand ready, increase your prestige, and listen to the world whisper your name in awe.
Do you have what it takes to become a Crusader King?

As well as this

■Take on the role of a Christian noble and carry them through the ages from Count to Emperor via the line of succession

Sorry, don't see anything there about playing Muslims. While it's a nice (and very fun!) addition to the game, the bolded part is still missing after 4 DLCs!

 

[Illanair]

It's funny how you keep mentioning Muslims specifically as if they don't exist - The crusades (which were predominantly against other faiths - hence the title HOLY wars) were a big part of the feudal lord. :mellow:

 

[unmerged(149861)]

It's funny how you keep mentioning Muslims specifically as if they don't exist - The crusades (which were predominantly against other faiths - hence the title HOLY wars) were a big part of the feudal lord. :mellow:

I don't deny that, it's just that the whole reason for crusades in the first place (ie, the Catholic Church) is basicly just a placeholder.

 

[Illanair]

I don't deny that, it's just that the whole reason for crusades in the first place (ie, the Catholic Church) is basicly just a placeholder.

... which is why we are discussing adding to the religious faction of the game in the first place? hehe

 

[Slaxl]

This thread has completely lost it's track. Whether or not you wish to pay for more features than the base game you already enjoy is not the subject of this thread. This thread is about how great it would be if existing mechanics were expanded and fleshed out to increase our enjoyment of the game. If you don't want it, I don't give a flying fig, so take your complaints elsewhere. If you do want it then let's get back to discussing the implementation of said extra features.

 

[DominusNovus]

Sorry, don't see anything there about playing Muslims. While it's a nice (and very fun!) addition to the game, the bolded part is still missing after 4 DLCs!

The Pope does indeed call for crusades and does indeed award those who fight in them, as represented through the piety contributions as well a the Crusader trait characters can gain. You can certainly say that the Crusades need improvement, and I would agree wholeheartedly; I don't think they should just be super-Holy Wars, but should have more logic and dynamism to them and be the result of an actual cause (besides 'oh, Jerusalem still isn't ruled by Christians, just like it hasn't been for the past 4 centuries'). However, the fact is that they are represented in the game.

You could certainly say that the Papal mechanics in the game need improvement, and I would agree wholeheartedly. However, they are present. The Pope does do all sorts of Pope-y type things.

The problem is that you could also make the same arguments for the feudal aspect of the game. There's plenty of intricacies in feudal society that are not presently represented in the game (cadet branches being one of the most popularly requested, as well as having multiple sovereigns), but the basics are still there.

And, when Paradox does release a 'Church' DLC that enables us to play as bishops and, hopefully, abbots/abbesses (to bring this back to the thread topic), they'll almost certainly flesh out the basic mechanics of those roles within a patch, for free.

 

[DominusNovus]

This thread has completely lost it's track. Whether or not you wish to pay for more features than the base game you already enjoy is not the subject of this thread. This thread is about how great it would be if existing mechanics were expanded and fleshed out to increase our enjoyment of the game. If you don't want it, I don't give a flying fig, so take your complaints elsewhere. If you do want it then let's get back to discussing the implementation of said extra features.

Speaking of which, a thought occurs to me: If they implement abbeys, P'dox will almost certainly have to include enatic succession into the game, to ensure that the abbeys are always ruled by women.

 

[Slaxl]

Speaking of which, a thought occurs to me: If they implement abbeys, P'dox will almost certainly have to include enatic succession into the game, to ensure that the abbeys are always ruled by women.

Always? Sure there are Abbesses who ruled Abbeys, but were there not also Abbots? Are there examples of institutions where it was solely enatic?

 

[NI_Mcknight]

Like the factions, retinues, ambitions or autocephaly and pentarchy? I suppose we could.



Well, it's Crusader Kings, not bishops. Besides arguing that some features should be free is just silly. You already paid for the work their did. How could they possibly be compelled to provide further content without being rewarded for more work? By what right or authority? Public opinion? They are free to ignore it if they so desire, they are not politicians or charity.

I'm quite certain most of the complainers would not bat an eylid if they made an expansion pack rather than DLC. It's all in the name - the old system was no fairer than the current one. Expansion packs only expanded core gameplay in exchange for cold hard cash.

You are a foolish fanboy.

 

[Illanair]

You are a foolish fanboy.

And you are foolish - plain and simple.

Tip: Next time try to come back with some actual arguments.

 

[Slaxl]

This is very annoying. They released a great game we all loved. They could have left it there, but they chose to keep working and add more stuff and make it even better. Instead of saying "great work", you're saying "shoulda done this from the start!". You can call me a fanboy if you like but I would disagree, it's a simple fact of life. A film is released to critical acclaim and then they release a sequel you also have to pay to see, you don't say "shoulda had that in it from the start!". No, you acccept they put extra work into adding into the already interesting base they developed.

Can I suggest, to anyone who wishes to argue with me, that you go find a DLC angst thread and add your thoughts there? So we can continue talking about how nice it would be to have abbeys and monasteries, and all manner of general Christendom features represented in greater detail?

Whether they're playable or not doesn't really matter to me, though it would be nice to be able to have a greater influence over the religious world and help push your man through to being Pope without the whole anti-pope thing. So seeing that whole side of the game fleshed out would be great.

 

[DominusNovus]

Always? Sure there are Abbesses who ruled Abbeys, but were there not also Abbots? Are there examples of institutions where it was solely enatic?

Forgive me, I was using 'abbey' in contrast to 'monastery' when I meant to use 'convent.' Anyway, I was simply referring to the fact that the nuns should be lead by an Abbess.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Stuff with monasteries would go hand-in-hand with a Celtic world DLC, in my opinion. Granted, Ireland wasn't just dominated by monasteries, not to mention that monastic life in Ireland and elsewhere was much more complex historically than the game will ever be able to portray, but I suppose it would be a good DLC - say, SI or LoR-sized - to throw in monasteries and give some flavor to the Celtic realms.

 

[Slaxl]

Stuff with monasteries would go hand-in-hand with a Celtic world DLC, in my opinion. Granted, Ireland wasn't just dominated by monasteries, not to mention that monastic life in Ireland and elsewhere was much more complex historically than the game will ever be able to portray, but I suppose it would be a good DLC - say, SI or LoR-sized - to throw in monasteries and give some flavor to the Celtic realms.

You're right, I've been thinking of monasteries from a purely western european latin point of view, but there is more to it than that. Quite how all the subtle differences can be utilised in game I don't know. Perhaps like how certain mercenaries are only open to certain peoples, and monastic orders could be represented like holy orders you could have different types for different regions? I still think, if done right, it could all be done in a Catholicism DLC though.

 

[Illanair]

Cease your discussions - I shall have my small convent run by balding monks, growing questionable herbs and spices whatever it takes. :wub: