Monarch Points - The Evil Root of All(?) Problems in EU4???

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knul

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... Therefore, why not improve governments and help to mitigate the monarch problem with one fix?...
Nice suggestions! It always irks me a bit to see governments in games like MoO2, the CiV series or EU series only granting some economic bonusses. I like to have governments change the way you control your nation, and your suggestions would do so.

I especially like your suggestion for Constitutional Monarchy, turning it into a republic/monarchy hybrid.
 

Jomini

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One of the big problems that monarch points creates for EUIV is that there is no tension between spending now and spending later with returns. Sure maybe you should keep a reserve handy for some tactical flexibility, but pretty much the amount of MP you generate is static for the whole game. A whopping 2 MP per category can realistically be bought and buildings don't do much that reduces future MP spending. The resource used for troops - gold - cannot really be used for monarch points. So you don't have to choose to sink resources now for more resources later - you just dump them all whenever you feel like it.

This also means a lot of your economy is pathway independent. In the past you could become strong just by investing early in economy and then riding that edge out later ... but if you did that, you risked being overrun by people who took the military option first. Now - with precious few exceptions (e.g. taking Plutocracy), what you need for a military cannot be sacrificed for economic growth, what you need for economic growth cannot be sacrificed for short term military or diplomatic sprees.

Just about everything in EUIV is something you can weight and evaluate in just one timeframe - you have no compounding for MP so you can easily say "yep choice A is the least painful here, no questions asked".
 
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ARASHI

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I think a lot of people are not realising how much EUIV deviates from a real strategy game due to the implementation of MP system. Most of the arguments we've seen so far are things like "I like RNG, RNG is good, it forces you to adapt a different strategy when you rolled a bad ruler". The concept is great, I agree that approach has its own merits, however PDS did not execute it right.

As it stands now there's not much thinking and strategic decisions involved by randomizing resource generation. Players get tunnel-visioned into what is their next move by the system. People who make those arguments are confused between the system effectively cornering them into a certain decision versus the players making their own calls and judgments. It's apparent that the MP system takes away a large chunk of strategic gameplay as many others have pointed out.

Some viewers seem to jump straight into the impression that I am trying to get the MP system removed. And that's not true as I have stated clearly in the OP and it is too fundamental to be removed from EUIV. Some people might want to see it gone in EUV but the majority is simply asking for changes and tweaks that can may be somehow inject some strategic gameplay back into the game. It's a strategy game after all.
 

KiLaNova

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Game is too dependent on Adm points for most important things like Coring, Stability, Idea groups.

I suggest, allow dip/mil to unlock idea groups as well, maybe at different levels to balance it out. That means adm tech unlocks adm ideas/ dip tech dip ideas etc.

Spread out coring costs among dip and mil too. Surely you need troops and diplomats to secure the loyalty of a conquered province as well.

Allow us to depose rulers (cost points and stab hit maybe?)

Let us change from monarchy to republic etc. something like westernization mechanic perhaps?

Let some unique buildings give +1 adm/dip/mil points.
 

Hsark

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Allow us to depose rulers (cost points and stab hit maybe?)

Let us change from monarchy to republic etc. something like westernization mechanic perhaps?

You're touching on something interesting here. Rather than forbidding you outright to do something, give it a high, but reasonable cost. Example: Lets say we have a regency council. You can still declare war, however with the following options/costs (examples):

- pay 250 Dip Power (representing the regency council diplomatically outmaneuvering nobles to get the war they wish), or

- pay 250 Mil power (the council forces the nobles to agree), or

- pay two stab (go to war without official support), etc...

And then, even more interestingly, you could tie new events to these choices. Lets say you pick the mil power option, then there's a chance a great general will take power (event with some mtth), giving a new monarch (same or different dynasty) with high mil score. And you could then make new event chains building on that, etc. Suddenly you've got your dynamic history! Maybe these regency council choices can even vary depending on govt form, tech levels, religion or something else.

I think the monarch point system has immense potential, but it needs to be tweaked and worked on extensively.

The resource used for troops - gold - cannot really be used for monarch points.

Advisors?
 
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KiLaNova

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You're touching on something interesting here. Rather than forbidding you outright to do something, give it a high, but reasonable cost. Example: Lets say we have a regency council. You can still declare war, however with the following options/costs (examples):

- pay 250 Dip Power (representing the regency council diplomatically outmaneuvering nobles to get the war they wish), or

- pay 250 Mil power (the council forces the nobles to agree), or

- pay two stab (go to war without official support), etc...

And then, even more interestingly, you could tie new events to these choices. Lets say you pick the mil power option, then there's a chance a great general will take power (event with some mtth), giving a new monarch (same or different dynasty) with high mil score. And you could then make new event chains building on that, etc. Suddenly you've got your dynamic history! Maybe these regency council choices can even vary depending on govt form, tech levels, religion or something else.

I think the monarch point system has immense potential, but it needs to be tweaked and worked on extensively.



Advisors?

Yup, give more choice(@ reasonable cost) not limit them. Wholeheartedly agree. I like your suggestion of new events to tie in with these choices, makes your choices actually have consequenses. Good suggestion.
 

spinoza013

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Perhaps you should be able to buy MP with either gold or unused MP in another area. perhaps have conversion rate modifiers based on tech etc.
 

spinoza013

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Perhaps you should be able to buy MP with either gold or unused MP in another area. perhaps have conversion rate modifiers based on tech etc.

I realise that in effect you're buying MP buy hiring advisors.
 

Jomini

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You're touching on something interesting here. Rather than forbidding you outright to do something, give it a high, but reasonable cost. Example: Lets say we have a regency council. You can still declare war, however with the following options/costs (examples):

- pay 250 Dip Power (representing the regency council diplomatically outmaneuvering nobles to get the war they wish), or

- pay 250 Mil power (the council forces the nobles to agree), or

- pay two stab (go to war without official support), etc...

And then, even more interestingly, you could tie new events to these choices. Lets say you pick the mil power option, then there's a chance a great general will take power (event with some mtth), giving a new monarch (same or different dynasty) with high mil score. And you could then make new event chains building on that, etc. Suddenly you've got your dynamic history! Maybe these regency council choices can even vary depending on govt form, tech levels, religion or something else.

I think the monarch point system has immense potential, but it needs to be tweaked and worked on extensively.



Advisors?
That was the sentence before your quote:
"A whopping 2 MP per category can realistically be bought and buildings don't do much that reduces future MP spending."

Realistically any empire can afford to have lvl 1 advisers and the amount of gold those run is close to negligible. However, as you get larger, it becomes easier to run lvl 2 and lvl3. Eventually even lvl 3's are just factored out and gold doesn't matter so much. Because everything is so independent, there are few tradeoffs. Going great guns for military tech doesn't impact your trade at all - if you have the MMP and the DMP you can do both simultaneously. If you don't have either, you are screwed with either. In real strategy, expenditures in one area come at the cost of expenditures in another; and typically manpower and cash are you must fungible resources - and also are the resources least likely to be in abundance.

Typically strategy has a very strong temporal component that is missing in EUIV. Sure you can surge all the airborne troops for a quick punch, but if you use all your heavy airlift for moving in frontline troops, then you have limited logistical tails and you have to forego things like heavy mechanization. So there is a tension - more troops now vs using the airlift to move in engineers and logistical support so you can bring in heavier troops later.

Previous incarnations of EU had this with the slider system (where every move in one direction involved shortchanging the other direction), gold doing double duty as troop purchase and research (so advancing in one area came at the cost of not advancing the others), and the result was a richer strategy space for economic and military decisions. You could opt to try to tech up trade & production ... but risk falling behind in military. You could forego trade & naval - but that crimped your income and could run into troubles with anyone with a good naval tech thrashing you, poaching colonies, and having the advantage of interior lines. You could try military first - hoping for a quick lead from short term gains. Now, it is all pretty much meh. Your military just advances at whatever rate you can support (there are just a few minor tradeoffs - particularly with which idea slots to fill with what when) - it really doesn't matter what you do for Adm tech or how many relationships you juggle. Even if you get a short term technological advantage - well again it doesn't matter you are pretty hard capped at 100% OExt (my most recent game lost 45 legitimacy for being at 101 OExt for 3 months).

You'd think this might make your choice of targets and methods for weakening targets a much more strategic choice, but unfortunately you tend to be railroaded. For any given amount of MP you want to devote to some goal (like crippling Spain), there is almost always a single optimal bit of damage to inflict. Further once you've made that call, your inability to sacrifice different resources means that you often end up ignoring the ebb and flow of history as when an enemy ebbs, you kinda have to ignore them because you are sitting on 100% OExt or (pre 1.4 or beta as I understand it) AE is threatening to spiral out of control.

EUIV plays like a very slow tactical game, it really doesn't play like a strategy game because there are so few meaningful tradeoffs.
 

JvK1791

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I find that I often lag behind in tech. This is the case even when I am playing as a great power. In fact, I think that I have more difficulty keeping up with technology advancements when playing as a large nation, since there are obviously more areas that you need to spend MP on. There are more provinces to core or change culture in and more buildings to construct, all of which, when combined, drain a lot of my MP. This doesn't include the cost of ideas. I try to hire decent advisers to compensate for my poor monarchs, but my treasury then becomes stagnate, which affects province improvements and military spending. I suppose these are all the trade offs and one can't expect to have it all. I am not trying to be overly critical of MP, because I believe they are interesting and I love how your ruler plays an active role in your nation, but I also think that the OP has a valid argument. There has to be some way to make MP more flexible, so if I have a surplus of MIL or DIP, I can exchange it for the MP that I need. Now, I am sure that this would cause a whole different set of balance issues, but I think all of this is important to discuss, even if this type of thread has been posted before.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I think a lot of people are not realising how much EUIV deviates from a real strategy game due to the implementation of MP system. Most of the arguments we've seen so far are things like "I like RNG, RNG is good, it forces you to adapt a different strategy when you rolled a bad ruler".

Those aren't arguments, they're hollow assertions that fail basic logic. When you don't have any viable choice difference from an aspect of gameplay, there is no strategy. You don't "adapt" to a 1/1/1, you just play like you would otherwise, only more behind, because of the limitations of the MP system.

MP inflexibility, along with rebels and non-separate peace war score, ranks as among the most flawed aspects of gameplay from a design perspective (assuming that the ability to add a protectorate while said nation is at war isn't intended). Right now, the most fundamental and usually most rate-limiting aspect of economy is tied almost 100% (not quite) to chance, with minimal ability for the player to influence it in any meaningful capacity. There is no tradeoff with MP supply, no investment to make, no situations where your decisions regarding your critical resource income matter in terms of how much you get.

You just get more or you get less, at random. That is the fundamental opposite of strategy, and the ludicrous assertion that you can somehow strategize your way out of a 1/1/1 in the current implementation in a way you couldn't do much better with a 5/5/5 is asinine at best, and insults the intelligence of people reading it at worst.
 

brifbates

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One thing I'd like to see is the tech costs adjusted to be lower but with much higher ahead of time penalties to keep tech from getting too far from the planned advancement, you could also tag on some per province gold cost or something. As the game currently stands , particularly in non-western nations, using mp for anything other than tech and ideas is idiocy. This leads to the stupidity of vassal-feeding and any other workaround/exploits people can find to avoid spending points. Instead of making judgments about whether you're better off giving the vassal a province, the answer is always "yes because admin points". Buildings never get built for the same reason, cultures don't get adjusted, and so on because too much of the budget goes into techs unless you can survive lagging multiple levels behind (aka diplo tech). Military isn't such a big deal due to limited applications for the points beyond tech anyway but this is a huge problem for admin points.
 

Geroshabu

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MP is basically the reason why I still play EU3 instead of EU4; it's poorly executed and illogical. The illogical aspects of it is what pisses me of the most actually, e.g. spending MIL to get good leaders and good military infrastructure puts me behind in military tech, investing in good infrastructure gets me behind in administrative techs etc.

I would like to see them merge all MP into one, call it bureaucracy points or something. Then you can make the monthly gain be dependent on government type, tech group and ideas, with bonuses given by advisers and a combination of monarch stats. After that, create percentage based discounts on buildings, coring and such dependent on your monarchs stats and advisers.

Example: You are western tech group, which gives you 10 points a month. Your government type is administrative monarchy, which gives a bonus of say +5 points a month.
Furthermore, your monarch is 6 Mil, 7 Admin, 3 Dip; as one way of doing this, say all stats combined/2 is your bonus points for monarchs, so you get a further 8 points. You also have a lvl 1 adviser that gives you another 1 bonus points.
We can also say you have an administrative idea giving you +2 points bonus. (ideas could give you discounts or bonus points depending on idea group)

In total, you now have 26 points a month to spend. Buildings still cost points to use, and are separated by category, but they all use only one type of points. Now the monarch stats come in to play - each point would give you say, 5% discount, in a given category. So building an armory with your current stats would give you a 30% discount in points required, meaning 7 points instead of 10. Administrative stats would make building a temple 35% cheaper in points, etc etc.
Ideas could also give you discounts in certain categories, so investing in military ideas would decrease the costs of military techs and buildings, but your other techs and buildings are more costly than they would be if you invested in other ideas. Some ideas like administration could give you bonus points instead, which would make them useful across the board, but less useful for specific areas.
As you get more ideas and better government types, you get more points, so cost of buildings increase in scale - e.g. a regimental camp could cost about 100 points as base cost. This also makes it rewarding for certain playstyles. Say you invested in Mil tech and ideas and got an extra 10% discount on Mil buildings - with the current monarch you'd get 40% discount, making it cost only 60 points instead. At the same time, your investments in a strong army have made it more costly investing in Dip-type buildings and actions since you hardly get any discounts, making you weaker in that field.

Can throw in other modifiers via events, or make bad monarch stats add % to cost instead, or whatever tweaks necessary. Anything that rewards the player for their investments in an area, rather than making them technologically weak (or vice-versa, tech making you weak in buildings) for investing in it, needs to be implemented.
 

Imgran

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I think the MP mechanics were an improvement, personally.

I agree but that doesn't mean they can't be improved yet again. the system in EUIII was downright arcane and the monarch points were a huge improvement.

if I could do something to improve it, I'd allow the ability to train your heir somewhat. Give you some control over things without eliminating the risk of bad kings and dynastic failure.
 

JvK1791

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MP is basically the reason why I still play EU3 instead of EU4; it's poorly executed and illogical. The illogical aspects of it is what pisses me of the most actually, e.g. spending MIL to get good leaders and good military infrastructure puts me behind in military tech, investing in good infrastructure gets me behind in administrative techs etc.

I would like to see them merge all MP into one, call it bureaucracy points or something. Then you can make the monthly gain be dependent on government type, tech group and ideas, with bonuses given by advisers and a combination of monarch stats. After that, create percentage based discounts on buildings, coring and such dependent on your monarchs stats and advisers.

Example: You are western tech group, which gives you 10 points a month. Your government type is administrative monarchy, which gives a bonus of say +5 points a month.
Furthermore, your monarch is 6 Mil, 7 Admin, 3 Dip; as one way of doing this, say all stats combined/2 is your bonus points for monarchs, so you get a further 8 points. You also have a lvl 1 adviser that gives you another 1 bonus points.
We can also say you have an administrative idea giving you +2 points bonus. (ideas could give you discounts or bonus points depending on idea group)

In total, you now have 26 points a month to spend. Buildings still cost points to use, and are separated by category, but they all use only one type of points. Now the monarch stats come in to play - each point would give you say, 5% discount, in a given category. So building an armory with your current stats would give you a 30% discount in points required, meaning 7 points instead of 10. Administrative stats would make building a temple 35% cheaper in points, etc etc.
Ideas could also give you discounts in certain categories, so investing in military ideas would decrease the costs of military techs and buildings, but your other techs and buildings are more costly than they would be if you invested in other ideas. Some ideas like administration could give you bonus points instead, which would make them useful across the board, but less useful for specific areas.
As you get more ideas and better government types, you get more points, so cost of buildings increase in scale - e.g. a regimental camp could cost about 100 points as base cost. This also makes it rewarding for certain playstyles. Say you invested in Mil tech and ideas and got an extra 10% discount on Mil buildings - with the current monarch you'd get 40% discount, making it cost only 60 points instead. At the same time, your investments in a strong army have made it more costly investing in Dip-type buildings and actions since you hardly get any discounts, making you weaker in that field.

Can throw in other modifiers via events, or make bad monarch stats add % to cost instead, or whatever tweaks necessary. Anything that rewards the player for their investments in an area, rather than making them technologically weak (or vice-versa, tech making you weak in buildings) for investing in it, needs to be implemented.

I like the idea of merging all MP into one pool.
 
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Imgran

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I don't. I like the current system in a lot of ways, I think it sets up a nice approachable midpoint where you can wind up paying for not managing resources, without making things needlessly confusing and arcane like it was in EUIII (I like to play my on my veins when it comes to my finances and could never get the hang of the budget system in that game). divorcing the financial system from the technological system and redoing the diplomatic system the way they did is a good step. I would actually reimplement the Infamy system from EUIII now that agressive expansion is less of an issue, it seems that that check on player aggression is now in order again, especially with the nerf on both AE and diplo vassalization.

That said I would like a little more control over who your king is, within limits and allowing for some reasonable chaos of course. The current system plus heirs and rulers being able to gain or lose skill based on decisions a la CKII would be my ideal centerpoint.
 
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