Monarch Points - The Evil Root of All(?) Problems in EU4???

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Tracker4502

Second Lieutenant
40 Badges
Feb 20, 2013
132
15
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities in Motion
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Magicka
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
I don't have a problem with Monarch Points in theory; kingdoms and empires were only as effective as those in charge of them, after all. The problem in EU4 is that the player has no control over who rules their kingdom when a monarchy is in place, when historically this was not the case. In theory yes, the line of kings and queens was hereditary and thus largely set in stone, but that didn't stop those who coveted the throne from trying to come up with clever ways to get around genetics. Assassination of the ruler, civil war for the throne, pretenders with fabricated claims upon thrones, claims of the ruler being insane, ruler is / is claimed to be a heretic or heathen, and even peaceful transfers of the throne all have a precedent in history. I'm not saying that monarchies should have the versatility of republics; the entire point of republics is that the best man for the job is elected. And yes, sometimes you should have a king or queen who is completed ill-suited for running your empire, as the hereditary line regardless of skill is a flaw of the monarchy system. The key is to give the player some way to mitigate or fix the issue of having a bad ruler. While a more robust diplomacy and intrigue system would allow us to hopefully do all of the examples I listed before, that would require a large amount of coding and design before implemented. So thus, the fix to this issue should utilize mechanics that are already in-game while giving the player control over their destiny.

We already have the ability to change governments. However, right now such a massive change upon a country usually has little effect upon how a country and its rulers operate. Thus, an easy way to make government forms matter as well as help control the effectiveness of the ruler is to assign each government special rules. Historically and in practice a country under a constitutional monarchy was much different than one with a despotic monarchy, but the mechanics of the game don't reflect this very well. Therefore, why not improve governments and help to mitigate the monarch problem with one fix?

(I'll preface this by saying that while I'm knowledgeable about history, I'm by no means an expert. If I say something that is incorrect, feel free to correct me.)

Lets me illustrate an example with feudal monarchies. Feudal monarchies involved the lord giving land to his vassals, who in turn promised military support to the lord. In addition, the lord could come to his vassals for guidance on any matter of importance by convening a council. So here we have a system of government where a ruler relies heavily upon his vassals for both power and guidance. This could be represented in the game like so:

Feudal Monarchy: +10% Manpower Modifier, -25% Advisor Costs, Each monarch stat capped at 4

So while you may have a 6/6/6 king, the system of government hinders him from exercising full control over his kingdom as the government explicitly gives his vassals the exclusive right to run certain aspects of the country. Thus, while your 6/6/6 king may now be less effective, advisor costs are lowered as your vassals are obligated to provide you with guidance. So feudal monarchies are great for poor and average rulers as the diffuse power structure allows you to compensate with better advisors, but this diffuse power structure would hinder the very best kings and queens. Now changing one's government form is something you have to constantly consider instead of doing once and then never again.

A few other potential examples of governments:

Despotic Monarchy: -10% Cost to Unjustified Demands, -10% Coring Cost
This form of government has no direct effect upon your monarch point income. The nation is strictly as effective as the ruler is.

Administrative Monarchy: +5% National Tax Income, +5% Tariff Income, +1 Base Admin Point Income, -2 Base Diplomatic and Military Point Income
Your government is a sprawling bureaucracy, and thus while administrative tasks are much easier the paperwork surrounding other tasks is intolerable.

Absolute Monarchy: -10% Coring Cost, +1 increase to base Monarch Point income, +100% Advisor Costs
The king or queen is the supreme ruler of the realm, and other people have a difficult time influencing policy. This government form increases your base supply of MP income, but makes it cost prohibitive to try to hire a multitude of skilled advisors.

Constitutional Monarchy: -1% Prestige Decay, +1 Yearly Legitimacy, Monarch stats halved rounded down
This one might take some explaining. In addition to the listed effect, you would also have an election for prime minister every 4 years (like a republic). The candidates would be 3/1/1 instead of 4/1/1 though, and candidates could not run for reelection. You would have no republican tradition, and would continue to function as a monarchy with legitimacy in every other way. Thus, your total MP income would be Base Income + Half of King (Rounded down) + Prime Minister. This would lead to a more stable income of MP over the long term while also allowing you to tweak your MP income as the need arises.

Enlightened Despotism: +15% Manpower Regeneration, +150% Building Build Time, No MP cost to build buildings
Enlightened despotism focused on the ruler ruling through social contract rather than divine right, and he / she was expected to improve the lives of the people throughout his / her rule. This is reflected by the fact that the MP cost for buildings has been removed, so it heavily encourages you to invest in your infrastructure. However, with such massive infrastructure expansions the bureaucracy has a hard time keeping its deadlines and thus build times are massively increased. (Also done so that the lack of MP cost doesn't make it too easy to build every building in every province instantly.)

In order to make this solution work, legitimacy couldn't 'reset' upon ruler death (though it could still drop to a lower legitimacy if a weak claimant ruler inherits the throne). This way, changing governments is powerful, but if you do it too often you'll never see your legitimacy above 50 again. In addition, your monarch's actual MP value is always displayed regardless of the effective value due to the government form (so you know what you're missing out on).

As I said before, the main issue with MP is that such a fundamental aspect of the system is completely beyond the player's control. With a solution like this though, you could tailor the government to your current monarch in order to have some control over your MP income. No monarch should have complete control over their MP income as that is what republics do, but they should still be able to exercise some control in order to make the game more interesting.
 
Last edited:

EUnderhill

Happy Feet!
26 Badges
Mar 27, 2002
5.043
1.630
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
EUIV is not a board game. It just seems to think so sometimes (but not in others where it is infinitely more complex than a board game ever could be, so it is pretty evidently not)
If you got a game for the computer called "Monopoly" or "Risk" you would expect it to feel something like a board game. No reason for "Europa Universalis" to be any different.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Jomini

General
6 Badges
Mar 28, 2004
2.105
2.233
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
I'm a game designer and I like the idea behind the monarch points. They force you to make decisions. A game without decisions is boring.
The problem is, that they're not well balanced. DIP feels okay, because the tech is not important. MIL doesn't really have any big sinks besides the very good ideas. ADM is so critical for stability and coring that you can't really take more than one ADM idea, especially early on.

That's odd, because EUIV doesn't really create a lot of strategic decisions. What exactly do you have in mind?

For me I see something like my mid-range goals are to:
reach the next level of Adm tech
grab two religious ideas
core my conquests (say Kaffa and Kerch)
maintain non-negative stab

Okay so I have a limited number of Adm points, so how does the decision process go? Well, all but invariably it is better to core first (OExt hammers you over 100 and you have finite time to get it down); you get a bunch of negative modifiers for OExt and for the price of Kaffa and Azov, you really can only get one stab level. Adm ideas tend to open more Adm buildings (useless if I'm in an Adm crunch), provide more money via production (also generally useless), and open new idea slots - good, but the slot will be there later - and it takes a long time to get the return on the tech. Taking the ideas is nice and all, but ultimately religious idea progress decreases revolt risk, lowers stab cost, and reduces AE - nice but not so critical after the big nerf of AE and AE reduction. Stability is an instant decrease in rebels, increase in cash flow, and prevents a number of really nasty events. Pretty much it is always: coring >> stab > adm ideas > adm tech > inflation reduction/buildings/etc.

What is missing from that analysis? Well pretty much any information about the strategic situation. I don't say which country I am (Crimea?, OE?, Trebizond?), but it doesn't really matter all that much - national ideas only tinker around the margin and coring is just about always paramount. I don't say what my empire looks like. Sure low stab hits a multi-ethnic pluralistic empire harder than a rock solid Greek/Orthodox Trebizond - but such a small empire also tends to gain the least from adm tech and ideas. Buildings can change position a bit - particularly when you are small they have a much higher percentage impact, but generally they are bottom of the barrel priorities. What is missing? I dunno, how about say the mention of War or Peace? Well again, uncored lands spawn nasty big revolts, stability helps out on many fronts, adm tech is worthless, and only a few adm ideas are worth pursuing. Peace is pretty much the same - coring drops the rebel count, stab ups just about everything you want in peace, and adm ideas/tech have about the same relative utility.

Does my choice on how to spend my Adm points really change the calculus on how to spend my Dip points? Nope. Dip has extremely little crossover with Adm (reduced WE affects core costs) but everything you spend Dip on doesn't care much what you do with your Adm points, peace costs, dip tech, dip ideas, and culture change (still wildly cost ineffective) all are mostly independent of Adm choices (particularly once you decide which ideas to use). Mil is even more isolated.


So exactly what decisions are you actually making? The game railroads you really hard into coring first and you don't get to decide much to focus on Dip vs Adm. Even if you get a crappy Adm king with godlike Dip - exactly which decisions are out there for you? Stop taking territory and try to retool your game to be a marriage broker? Don't get new ideas? These really are trivial decisions and a game with high Adm is pretty much just a faster unfolding of a low Adm game.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

praguepride

First Lieutenant
116 Badges
Jan 24, 2006
285
152
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • Majesty 2
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Victoria 2
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Darkest Hour
  • Ancient Space
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
I enjoy the randomness of the monarchs as it forces me to change my strategy and goals as opposed to telling the computer exactly what to do. If you want total control, play total war. This is a game that will tell you "no, you can't do that" time and time again and the successful player will view that as an obstacle or an opportunity, not a flaw in the game design.

When I get a crappy ruler I realize that this is not going to be a generation of growth and expansion and so I have to be very frugal with my spending of ADM points. This is when I look for the easy vassal wins and think very critically about whether to lose X resource or Y because my resource generation is going to be slim. I look at slimming down my army and hiring better advisors to keep progress going. On the flipside when I get that fabled 6/6/6/ it's hog heaven and I can push borders, buildings, and technology to my hearts content with my bounty of MP.

Note that because it is random, the 6/6/6 years are more appreciated because of the 0/0/0/ years. If I could manipulate the game to always give me MP where I needed it then it wouldn't be much of a challenge. I like the game throwing wrenchs in my grand design. I like being forced to try strategies outside of my comfort zone.

I like MP system.
 

Jomini

General
6 Badges
Mar 28, 2004
2.105
2.233
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
I enjoy the randomness of the monarchs as it forces me to change my strategy and goals as opposed to telling the computer exactly what to do. If you want total control, play total war. This is a game that will tell you "no, you can't do that" time and time again and the successful player will view that as an obstacle or an opportunity, not a flaw in the game design.

When I get a crappy ruler I realize that this is not going to be a generation of growth and expansion and so I have to be very frugal with my spending of ADM points. This is when I look for the easy vassal wins and think very critically about whether to lose X resource or Y because my resource generation is going to be slim. I look at slimming down my army and hiring better advisors to keep progress going. On the flipside when I get that fabled 6/6/6/ it's hog heaven and I can push borders, buildings, and technology to my hearts content with my bounty of MP.

Note that because it is random, the 6/6/6 years are more appreciated because of the 0/0/0/ years. If I could manipulate the game to always give me MP where I needed it then it wouldn't be much of a challenge. I like the game throwing wrenchs in my grand design. I like being forced to try strategies outside of my comfort zone.

I like MP system.

So when you get a crappy ruler you look for vassal wins and you have to space out what you spend, so what? That is not an actual strategic choice. In virtually every circumstance the most cost efficient decision is the exact same for situations when you have a crappy ruler as when you have a god-like one. For instance, I fight Austria as France and I win. I can either: take Naples as a vassal or take the Austrian Netherlands (assuming you cannot release a good vassal out this bit of land). Which is more ADM efficient? Take Naples. It doesn't matter if I have a 0 king with a 1 adviser or a 6 with a 3, Naples is always the most efficient use of my ADM. But aren't there times when I want the Netherlands more? No, not from cost efficiency standpoint. The Dutch provinces give you more direct tax and more direct manpower, and don't take up a diplo-relationship slot ... but when you look at the cost of the provinces in Dip, that is a lot of years over the limit for Naples (it is up to 50 Dip per province, and you might be able to manage something like 25 for a big block of territory). Regardless of being rich or poor, your "choice" is always the same if you are playing by the numbers.

So what does a crappy monarch do? If you are playing optimally, it pretty much just means you make mostly the same choices - just slower. Get better advisers? Oh sure, whatever. By late game you will be running all 3's if they give them to you and in the early game, you simply can't do jack there (e.g. an early Ottoman player get get rid of his entire army ... and be able to afford exactly one level 3 adviser more). Heck, most of the time advisers are just another random crap shoot where you have to hope they come in levels that are useful or rarely you need a specific type (e.g. diplomat, statesman, navigator, or theologian).

There really aren't strategic decisions here. The game saying "no you can't do that" needs to be followed with "so change your strategy to X instead". It doesn't do that. In virtually every circumstance, the optimal course is the same, just slower now.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

brifbates

Field Marshal
93 Badges
Mar 4, 2004
10.889
2.841
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
So when you get a crappy ruler you look for vassal wins and you have to space out what you spend, so what? That is not an actual strategic choice. In virtually every circumstance the most cost efficient decision is the exact same for situations when you have a crappy ruler as when you have a god-like one.

This is true. However, the best strategic decision is not always the most cost efficient choice. You even give a perfect example of this...if you are swimming in adm points you absolutely take the Austrian Netherlands instead of vassalizing Naples because in the short, medium, and long term that choice makes you far stronger and your primary foe much weaker.
 

Jomini

General
6 Badges
Mar 28, 2004
2.105
2.233
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
This is true. However, the best strategic decision is not always the most cost efficient choice. You even give a perfect example of this...if you are swimming in adm points you absolutely take the Austrian Netherlands instead of vassalizing Naples because in the short, medium, and long term that choice makes you far stronger and your primary foe much weaker.

No it doesn't. In the short term you have expended OExt - so you can't say go beat up Spain and take provinces if they get in a peasant's war until the cores finish. Likewise, you have added a new source for rebels so you need to expect to spend some resources (e.g. keeping an army handy, not letting you WE climb into the stratosphere, etc.) which again makes you weaker. The tax and manpower are nice, but you can get those a lot of other places (e.g. invade Savoy or someone else when Austria is weak).

In the medium term, you can always just go fight Austria again. So you stockpile the AMP, you then have your vassal closer to integration (as that takes longer) and you can now return to Austria with a nice vassal attached.

In the long term, you might even be able to do something like, say, release the Netherlands and then annex them later. Given the likelihood of revolts, the Austrian Netherlands can be a great albatross to hang around Austria's neck.

The only time it is stronger to take the Netherlands is if you cannot spend the Adm on other territory or anything else more useful. That is pretty rare. The fact is, if you have the AMP, you can just return to Austria in five years, or you can punch out Savoy or maybe even invade England. The only time you end up really needing to burn the AMP is when you have a goal that cannot be accomplished any other way (e.g. Breaking Spain takes some doing as they don't have a lot of releasable nations) or when you've tapped out your Dip options - which takes a pretty good long time.

In any event, in a game theoretic context (in which I am talking) the most cost effective option is identical to the best strategic outcome. If weakening Austria is the best course of action it is because it is cheaper to fight a weak Austria later than to fight a more powerful one. If that is your actual metric then again it is the same exact thing - you don't have a strategic choice - you have a list of things that hurt Austria and you buy whichever of them you can afford as fast as possible. Having good or bad monarchs doesn't change the strategic calculus. I mean seriously if this were such a huge strategic interplay, then we'd have post after post about how crappy monarchies are because Republics have so many more options or post after post about how crappy the strategic choices are for Republics. We don't, because you aren't actually making a strategic tradeoff - you are just following a list and optimizing your point spend. There is nowhere that the monarchs actually change your strategy in the vast majority of games. I mean heck, half the AARs I read only mention the monarch stats when they are exceptionally good or bad, and then only in passing. I cannot recall a single AAR I've read where someone has said "well I was going to take path X, but swapped to Y in light of a crappy monarch".
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Sir-Rogers

Captain
91 Badges
Jun 19, 2012
306
110
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
You're talking about how it's unfair and out of your control.

Life is a dice roll.

There's no god that comes down to serve you freshly baked bred and warm milk to your bed. You have to get up and make what you can of the day. Sometimes it's a good day, sometimes it's a bad day.

The point system is a big improvement from EU3, and I love it, as do many other people. I wouldn't want to have a game that I can turn on, and calculate everything ahead without any interference whatsoever.
 

Merrivale

Colonel
52 Badges
Oct 9, 2003
800
2.391
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
My $0.02:

Points need to have slightly more flow to them, as others have said. Older monarchs should be a risk for losing them due to old age, a warmonger that never goes to war should be at risk for losing them, etc. And of course positive gains should be able to flow from some actions. But it does need to be very limited: MP serve two very important purposes: they model the notion of a truly awful monarch dragging a nation down (Henry VI) or a great one allowing a nation rise (Peter the Great) and they serve as a limit on the player's ability to snowball. I would say each monarch should be able to gain or lose 2 points in their lifetime, across ratings, to keep those abilities. If you allow the player too much leeway then the game loses it's ability to force "bad times" on them.

The bigger problems are two-fold: not enough to do in peace/internal management for while you're waiting for points to accumulate and the points are unbalanced (there's a reason there a ton of strategies devoted to ADM point hoarding, i.e. using vassal mechanics). Coring needs to change to allow DIP and MIL points to be used in some way, my preference remains for both a higher points requirement and additional burdens (a diplomat for DIP points, army for MIL) and potential hazards if you aren't doing it the right way. Talk about strategic choice: you've just conquered three provinces, how are you going to core them? Use all ADM points for fewer overall or tie up a diplomat in one using DIP points or tie up an army in another using MIL. Are you going to risk damaging your new acquisition by using force to core (MIL points)? And here is where the RNG comes in with MP points in general: your strategy probably really will revolve around what type of monarch you have, but you won't be crippled by a poor ADM monarch.
 

EUnderhill

Happy Feet!
26 Badges
Mar 27, 2002
5.043
1.630
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • For The Glory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
Because that board game had Monarch Points?

No, Europa Universalis is based on the *computer game* Svea Rike III

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svea_Rike_III
Monarchs with ADM, DIP and MIL, stability ranging from -3 to +3 (or possibly lower, it had been nearly 20 years) same time frame (1492-1792, give or take a little with expansions).
 

Saintrl

Lt. General
46 Badges
Jul 9, 2013
1.300
52
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Heheheh I like the challenge of having a crappy ruler. It makes me let the rebels to win so I can re-roll a better ruler for free at no long-term cost as well as getting a free god general. Woohoo.

Playing in Ironman, I've realized that even if I lose half my country to the Ottomans, roll a shit ruler, and have a godly heir die and be replaced with an 0/0/0 imbecile, there's always a way out. Why in the situation described above it was a simple matter of going bankrupt from having to pay the Ottomans over 400 gold in the peace deal where I lost half my country. As a result peasants overran my country giving me a 4/3/6 ruler (vast improvement), a huge coalition formed targeting the Ottomans, and within 50 years my acceptable 4/3/4 heir was enjoying an alliance with the released Byzantine Empire as I got my cores back from the Ottomans in a peace deal after a Coalition war. Things like this make the game more exciting ja? It'd be boring if I could have a god king and god advisors giving me all the perfect boosts I need to be way ahead in tech level and superior to my neighbors.

If you wanna play a game where you control everything, then play with console controls and cheat because otherwise you're never going to have a perfect "everything your way" playthrough.


For everything else:
Leave the inherent problems with the game to the devs, let the players suffer deal with the results.
 
Last edited:

DrCelt

(not actually a doctor)
44 Badges
Jan 23, 2013
114
50
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Dungeonland
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Surviving Mars
  • Prison Architect
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
I agree absolutely. Monarch points are random, which ruins the point of a strategy game; ( a game which requires strategy. - strategy games do not contain 75% luck.) I think that the impact of advisors should be far greater and the impact of monarchs be far lower, if you keep the monarch point system at all.

However, anyone with half a braincell will know paradox will never do this, despite it being the right thing to do, for the plain reason that it is expensive to redesign the entire game and replace monarch points, as the entire game has been built upon them. Paradox would have to redesign the entire game to fix this stupid problem, and to do that would require a large sum of money. Where do they get that? Well, unfortunately it couldn't be made a DLC without breaking the game, so it would have to be an update, done for free, to keep in line with the business model of "everyone can play multiplayer with eachother." If it's an update, how do they sell it? They don't. I expect, if paradox has any sense that monarch points will no longer exist in EU5, but do not expect to see them in EU4, as paradox, a company, is quite entitled to place revenue over customer satisfaction.
 

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
Monarch points are there to stay. PEriod, too late to change it. For EU 5 dunno what will be used for tech, but for this one, it´s MP.

What the game can and should invest in are in more stuff to do at Peace that, well, don´t use said points.
 

AndreasPhokas

Alpha Nerd
74 Badges
Aug 12, 2012
1.440
638
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I do think an option to tutor your heir for 1 point(as in just one point in a category) in ADM/MIL/DIP would be nice. The AI can have something that autoraises its lowest DIP/ADM/MIL to help it out as out.

That way you have alittle effect on your heirs. In my current Brittany game most of my rulers have been 3/2/2 3/3/1 or 0/2/1. Its really made it hard to keep up with everyone. Even being able to put 1 point in a trait would be nice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.