Monarch Points - The Evil Root of All(?) Problems in EU4???

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

mocoman2001

Major
63 Badges
Dec 6, 2009
788
361
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
Over all i would say eu4 is a big improvement over eu3, but i would also agree monarch points are not ideal. I never had a problem with mp, but i like the mechanics of the eu3 single currency more.

They should defiantly rebalanced monarch points. Make it less rng, or make it ezer to change to a republic and cut back on some of the republic negative events. In eu3 we had a huge stab hit going from monarch to republic or vise versa. In eu3 stability was trivial.

Also make make us spend less adm points, and more military. Im always starving for admin, and looking for ways to throw away military.
 

Thrake

Inveterate Piggy Stabber
21 Badges
Jul 13, 2012
4.389
1.622
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • King Arthur II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I like the randomness of rulers. In history, every country have faced periods of growth and abundance, and times of stagnation. This is modeled perfectly through the game, and player even has the choice to choose on which domain he might want to get a little edge (advisors). It's also true that some kind of points are more needed than others, somthing might be tweaked there. While manpower could be a concern for exemple, it quickly gets much easier later on as mil points have little other use, outside teching.

I like the IDEA of monarch points. It creates a ressource; you say it is better when you can control the primary ressource, but you missed one point I believe. Ressources are important for macromanagement. Some gameplays in strategy games however, are based on micromanagement. You start with X units, and correct positioning, movements, use of abilities,... allows one to do better with less than others. That could be how monarch points could be interesting: should I core? Or should I save up for teching? This is, IMO, the flaw of the system. I feel there is little if any choice. Leaving uncored provinces is a no go. Regardless how many points I have, I MUST core, or else everything goes wrong. So, tech goes after. For every way to spend monarch points, there is an obviously better choice, which will make pick option A rather than B. The only real choice that I make is beetween ideas VS tech. Buildings - I build; it costs little MP, while more money means much bigger army, ie crushing my neighbour and better advisor. Inflation, do my best to avoid it; used MP once so far to lower it. Scorch earth, when I use it, I'll pretty muc loose anyway, only used as an emergency measure; why would I want to spend MP to damage my lands? Given that I might have to do it 2/3 times before ennemy actually moves to this province.
...
If monarch points were to make me think about every last of it, then, it would be an awesome system. Right now, it's just either I've got enough and I spend, either I've not and I'll tech later. It's easy to say, but it hard to implement, I'm aware, but it would really benefit from giving more crucial choices. Perhaps less spend 20 points for a little something, but rather 150 points for something really valuable, and overall give more possible uses for MP. How about attaching a MP cost for diplomatic actions, for exemple? I would think twice before making an offer then, and only make offers I really need. Or give MP maintenance cost for improving relations. If I go to war and raise maintenance of my armies, then perhaps it should drain my mil points,...
 

FrigidSoul

Major
55 Badges
Jun 7, 2009
568
764
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sword of the Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
Over all i would say eu4 is a big improvement over eu3, but i would also agree monarch points are not ideal. I never had a problem with mp, but i like the mechanics of the eu3 single currency more.

They should defiantly rebalanced monarch points. Make it less rng, or make it ezer to change to a republic and cut back on some of the republic negative events. In eu3 we had a huge stab hit going from monarch to republic or vise versa. In eu3 stability was trivial.

Also make make us spend less adm points, and more military. Im always starving for admin, and looking for ways to throw away military.

Heh, I think military points (at least in the mid-late game) are balanced around Forced March. Earlier on, of course, saving mil points for ideas and tech levels is pretty important.
 

unmerged(780209)

Major
1 Badges
Aug 5, 2013
509
4
  • Europa Universalis IV
What really angers me is that without really considering whether this would make things better or worse, Paradox just eliminated the ONE way players had found to get around the terrible problems generated by the flawed design of their MP system: vassal feeding.

Problem, there are too many competing uses for Admin Points + wars are boring as hell + OE causes too many rebellions which are merely tedious to have to crush all the time (not that you can't) + AE caused coalitions don't work right.

Their solution? Nerf AE, eliminate coalitions, and make it impossible to vassal feed over much of the world because you can't get vassals, only protectorates.

Instead of fixing the problem it makes it all worse. In 1.3 AE was at least a limitation, now it's too weak. Coalitions were a broken system but there needed to be SOMETHING to prevent massive expansion. Now that's nerfed too. The only remaining constraint is OE, and if you're willing to never choose any Admin Idea Group you can probably afford to core as much as you need to.

Not that that's any fun.

They seem to think that making direct conquest easier makes things better. And I suppose for some players it does. But, conquest is the most BORING part of this entire game!

What's fun about wars really?

Are they not almost entirely predictable to an experience player? Don't you KNOW going in that you are going to win almost every battle? The few times I've had any problems in a war was because I didn't pay close enough attention to who was allied with whom before I attacked someone.

I mean you can check a ledger and see exactly how much manpower they have, check what military ideas they have, see what their military tech is and thus know in advance what units and tactical advantages you will be facing. Where's the mystery there?

And because the AI never understands terrain you almost always win anyway.

And after a couple of battles don't you spend almost your entire time sitting there watching the siege timer clock go around and around and around. "Ooh! It's up to seven! Only another 8 months of this crap to go!"

Compared with other games that simulate actual combat, it's duller than watching paint dry for the most part. That's not a problem. This is a strategy game, not Total War, but there should be INTERESTING ALTERNATIVES.

And Paradox keeps trying to nerf every possible alternative.

Now even the mods can't keep things straight any more because there's no way around the "Protectorates not Vassals" problem -- except to make every single nation start out with Western Tech -- which is a mod I'm going to try next believe me!
 
Last edited:

ragingrondo12

Field Marshal
93 Badges
Jul 28, 2012
3.048
517
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
I posted this in the giant vassal-feeding thread.

Seems applicable. Its not necesarily the monarchpoints, but the fact thst we end up using them in such imbalances, so my proposal is to change that.

A proposal if I might be so obtrusive to suggest one?

Lets revamp the coring system completely. Several people have suggested to core province via paying a combination of all three types of monarch points, or by reducing overall adm coring cost and time.

Perhaps a good solution would be to combine these two ideas together.

Begin with some type of system; ex 1 ADM = 2 DIP= 2 MIL.

This idea in principle allows for the pure ADM cost of coring to be expressed in terms of other types of monarch points.

Now with a like system, a slider system could be introduced, that only controls the specific ratios monarch points that would be used for coring.
{we already have one for morales, and colonists/missionaries, dont see why this isn't possible}

ex:
at 0% adm coring cost, all cores would be created using a combination of DIP and Mil points.

at 25% adm coring cost, 25% of the coring cost would be paid via adm points, and the rest would be drawn from the other two monarch point groups.

In the 25% example 75% of the coring cost could be would be paid by DIP and MIL monarch points.

Set MIL monarch point slider to 28% and DIP monarch point slider to 47%.

The only caveat would be that the total percentage of the three sliders must be equal to 100% (or 99.9if you want to go 33.3%...).

The base ADM monarch point cost for coring should be 12 per base tax, or the max monthly amount that one could make as a western ruler 6/6/6 with rank 3 advisors.

At a cost of 12 per adm per base tax coring a 14 BT province (such as 134-wein) would theoretically only cost 168 adm instead of 280 adm.

based on the slider settings the point spread used for the coring could end up being something like:

33% ADM -> 55.44 rounded down to 55 *ADM Modifier
40% DIP -> 67.2 rounded down to 67 *DIP modifier
27% MIL -> 45.6 rounded up to 46 *MIL modifier

This makes the effective coring cost 55 adm +134 dip + 92 mil = 281 effective MP

using the same percentages the effective coring cost for coring an 8 BT province (41-Ostpreussen)
be:
Theoretical base cost 96 adm vs 160 adm

33% ADM -> 31.68 rounded up to 32 *ADM Modifier
40% DIP -> 38.4 rounded down to 38 *DIP modifier
27% MIL -> 25.92 rounded up to 26 *MIL modifier

effective base cost 32 adm + 76 dip + 56 mil = effective 164 mp.

Personally I believe that to be fair. as now the coring cost for a province are now perhaps only 40-55% of your overall yearly monarch point gain if having a perfect monarch. If not it could be a year to a year and a halves worth.
This reduces the need to save up massive amounts of MP for coring, and allows it to be pumped into other things such as reduce WE, Culture, inflation, etc.

This allows for more diversification and greater control of your nascent nation-state. It also allows for better control of MP, in case of being landlocked, set sliders to favor DIP points as primary coring cost.

EX-> as ENG/GBR make it so that coring is primarly related to MIL; as isolation for central Europe makes for fantastic defense; pump rest of MP into ADM and DIP ideas to strengthen their actual defenses; as Landlocked PRU, BOH, HAB, FRA, HUN, POL, LIT, RUS.. etc (nearly anywhere HRE/not a colonizer/ trading republic) make primary cost be DIP related.

-> Perhaps also making it so that the necessary MP are subtracted monthly from your MP income, so a sort of static is in place while provinces are being cored…. <- not too sure on this one.

^^ I do admit, perhaps adding a static constant of ^^ -XX to the effective/theoretical mp may be necessary and effective to stop slight overpay.


Overextension should now be 2.5 points per point of Basetax

Wein would give a base overextension of 35, whereas ostpreussen would give an OE of 20.


much better than oe’s of 56 (wein) and 32 (ostpreussen)

This allows for more annexation, which coupled with PI’s AE badboy removal should make it easier to really on the annex -> core method of expansion.

in addition the local overextension caused by a non-cored province should give some type of direct malus on the province itself, such as +RR or - tax and manpower; this malus should last for a year after coring completion to demonstrate how peasant adjustment to new ideas.



Now to address coring time ->

as a minor nation coring time should be lower, representing the more personalized and individualistic involvement of the monarch in the oversight of the project.

EX-> OPM to size < 20 provinces -> effective coring time (ECT) per base tax is four months.
Using Wein and Ostpreussen as examples if a small state were to core them the ECT would be 56 months (wein) and 32 months (ostpreussen) or 4.67 years and 2.67 years to core completely.

A medium sized nation of 21 to <60 provinces ECT would be 6 months per BT.
84 months -> 7 years (wein)
48 months -> 4 years (Ostpreussen)

and so on. This would likely be an effective solution to coring time, provided the ECT never goes above 9 months per core.
{b/c max non modified BT-> 15; 15 BT * 9ECT = 11.25 years; suitable but not crippling, as it makes sense that a more advanced province would take more oversight time to oversee transition. -> not game crippling 20 year core time.

Use the 1.4 feed vassal system, however make vassals use the ECT of their overlords, to reduce the ability to spam vassals. Also make it so that once a nation is vassalized, since it can no longer have any alliances or relations with other countries outside of suzerain and support independence, that it would use its diplomats to fabricate claims on all nearby provinces that it doesn’t currently have a claim or core on, including its suzerains territory.

ECT could also be effected by type of vassal, id imagine an ADM/DIP vassal to be more effective at coring, perhaps taking a month off the ECT, whereas a colonialist/militarist vassal add 1 month ECT.

-> gives players options for staying small to reduce ECT, but at the risk of losing vassals because vassal is larger than suzerain overlord. When combined with the support independence DIP action, could lead to interesting games and decisions. For this vassal ai would need to be coded to be more adept and reactive at determining right time to attempt to break free;
EI:
-> after succession-> regency
-> low manpower (- independence modifier applied for first 50 years, due to small and interesting nations being manpower deprived and not rich enough to completely rely on mercs.)
-> Low Stability and prestige
->after lengthy wars when lord is weak aka-> 5+ years early game, longer later.

—> all this makes the AI behave more like a human player, being more reactive and unpredictable, making for dynamic gameplay.

Also add option to give provinces with vassal claims to vassals when negotiating peace treaties, just as player can annex provinces that he has claims to at reduced cost, the Suzerain should be able to do so for his vassals (split AE and OE for that; {though OE to suzerain should be a temporary modifier (say a year)} with perhaps higher warscore cost to signify the administrative paperwork that would need to be moved through.

Also make it so that vassals can only core if they have adequate MP stored up as directed by overlords sliders; say necessary amount + 50 of each MP * by some AI modifier, due to fact AI is not very good at planning for future out too well.



In all I think that this is modest proposal
and wouldn’t be to hard to implement, provided I had the resources of PI, and a better understanding of coding than I.

~Raging
 

Korsan82

Anadolu beylerbeyi
11 Badges
May 15, 2007
998
126
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
cugel12 what the heck can you do besides going to war in this game? Pathetic colonization? Non existant domestic politics? There is absolutely nothing you can do except war and that part of the game is horribly crippled.
 

unmerged(780209)

Major
1 Badges
Aug 5, 2013
509
4
  • Europa Universalis IV
Raginggrondo12, why wouldn't it just be simpler to give the player (and AI) better ways to increase the number of monarch points? Ruler training. Have a separate system for coring costs versus every other use of admin points.

I think your ideas for a more dynamic AI are good, but might be hard to program.

The kinds of things mod makers have already done in making the MP system more flexible would be easy fixes. The kinds of innovations you suggest would take a major programming effort, because they not only have to redesign major portions of the game system, they also have to test for balance.

Till (probably never) Paradox gets their act together I'm just going to keep playing the beta 1.3, which also means I will probably forgo buying any DLCs -- which is too bad, since I would normally support the developers by buying every major DLC.

1.3 had achieved a really good play balance and then they came in and screwed it all up!
 

Caewil

Colonel
78 Badges
Jun 13, 2010
1.086
376
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
They'll fix it. Paradox actually has a better development rate than many other games because of their failures. It would be better if they could rely more on beta testers but throwing up massive systemic problems does mean they can find out what works and what doesn't faster. The problem is they don't have a unified system of thought defining what their goals are in designing the game. It makes their games more flexible and open to modding, But their anticipation of what will happen if they change one thing doesn't work as well as could be because of the lack of a unified concept of how each element of the system affects other elements.
 

unmerged(780209)

Major
1 Badges
Aug 5, 2013
509
4
  • Europa Universalis IV
cugel12 what the heck can you do besides going to war in this game? Pathetic colonization? Non existant domestic politics? There is absolutely nothing you can do except war and that part of the game is horribly crippled.

Personally, I like to play a trading and colonization game, which means I spend most of my time maximizing my income stream.

This involves micro-managing the economy:

1. Seeing where there are bottlenecks in the flow of my trade income. Check each trade node each month to see who might be spamming light ships in that node and stealing my trade.

2. Do I need to embargo someone? Or build more trade buildings in that node? Or shift around my light ships or build more ships? Do I need to seize more provinces in that node to eliminate someone who's just a trouble-maker and asking for a bruising by stealing my trade?

3. Who's in a coalition against me? What are their attitudes? Are they Outraged or merely Hostile? If hostile, can I manage to get their opinion of me up to positive so that they'll drop out of the coalition? If they're Outraged, can I offer them gifts, improve relations, enemy of enemy, take enough diplomatic steps to get them up to +50 so that they'll drop out?

What's my strategy if I can't do this?

4. What buildings do I need to build in different provinces? Can I build naval buildings to give myself more naval forcelimits and reduce my overhead, or must I build tax buildings, etc.

5. Should I spend the monarch points to train my monarch? My heir? (a mod for this).

Oh, there's a LOT to do besides endless BORING wars in this game. You have to fight eventually because you can't diplo-vassalize anybody outside your religious group, but it doesn't have to be your main focus.

It it was I would have abandoned this game back in September as insufferably BORING!
 

Diavolo1988

First Lieutenant
70 Badges
Nov 26, 2012
220
0
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Impire
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
In real life a government can increase it's administrative powers by hiring more bureaucrats. They can increase diplomacy and trade tech by hiring more diplomats and pay for research in trade. They can improve technology by building universities, and hiring scientists and war engineers and so on.

A bigger, richer country can be as effective (or most likely more effective) as two countries of half the size. In EU4, two countries of half the size will on average generate almost two times the monarch points. This is why vassal feeding is great. They spend monarch points for you. However, in real life it would be more effective just to annex them, and use the resources of the other country to expand your own bureaucracy. That is why monarchs should have skills from 0 to 3. And instead have advisers from skill 1 to 6. Trading in tea would be OP though, so perhaps scale that adviser cost reduction modifier.

BTW, people started wanting this fix almost immediately after EU4 got released. The reason why it's not in is because Paradox want to avoid too much snowballing.

Foul language removed - Seelmeister
 
Last edited by a moderator:

unmerged(780209)

Major
1 Badges
Aug 5, 2013
509
4
  • Europa Universalis IV
They'll fix it. Paradox actually has a better development rate than many other games because of their failures. It would be better if they could rely more on beta testers but throwing up massive systemic problems does mean they can find out what works and what doesn't faster. The problem is they don't have a unified system of thought defining what their goals are in designing the game. It makes their games more flexible and open to modding, But their anticipation of what will happen if they change one thing doesn't work as well as could be because of the lack of a unified concept of how each element of the system affects other elements.

Of course with Paradox you don't have to put up with bugs that crash the game they never bother to fix, critical elements that flat don't work etc. They try and fix stuff much better than most game developers.

But, they have some screwy ideas about what works and doesn't. They keep trying to make the game more straight-forward and more of a simple "conquest and core" game and that's insanely DULL!

From their perspective I suppose that convoluted systems to get around game mechanics problems are not good. Casual gamers will never learn about the complexities of vassal feeding (I never would have thought of it myself).

But, the result is they keep forcing game-play into the most boring and predictable channels!

"We'll reduce AE and eliminate coalitions so that it's now easy to conquer and core, conquer and core, conquer and core. . . . blah, blah, Urrgh" [throws up lunch!]
 

Tibi088

Captain
53 Badges
Apr 30, 2010
338
416
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
Hmmm.... How about if there would be an option that would allow you to hire a state minister or something along those lines if your ruler really sucks (like if his 3 stats together are 6 or lower). This should cost quite a bit of money. His stats would be random but better than the rulers and once you hired him you couldnt send him away till ruler lives or he dies. MP would generate based on him instead of the monarch. And its not ahistorical either - really stupid rulers were rarely allowed to rule in earnest. And the option would be open to the AI too of course.
 

S0ny B1ack

Colonel
26 Badges
Aug 21, 2009
1.146
10
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • King Arthur II
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Dungeonland
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
I generally like the MPs - Pdox said in the dev diaries, they decided for that system because they wanted to somewhat simulate that a country stagnate if it gets a bad monarch... I think that goal is achieved.

What I personally would like to see improved - giving us the choise to use different kind of points for some actions (maybe all 3, maybe somewhere at least 2). Which points you used could offer different side effects.
For example a culture change could be either done with diplo points and take x months with no negative effects, or maybe you would spend military points and it would take a shorter time, but would slightly reduce the manpower in the province in the end.

Firstly it would give the player a choise, and secondly only a really bad ruler (low in all stats) stops you completely, while currently when getting one good stat and if it is the wrong one you still can't do much.
So in my culture change example - currenttly having a 0 1 4 ruler doesn't allow you to play much with culture changes, but if you could pay in military points as well the ruler just became more useful, you can still convert cultures.
 

klinkvon13

Polish Plumber
68 Badges
Feb 16, 2010
549
487
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Read it all. Agree with all except the latest paragraph : I'm fine with the europe-centered approach of a game called Europa Universalis, giving advantage to Europe in a period that historically was a period of european dominance.
I recently replayed CK2 and I actually had more fun, despite the fact that I like plenty of things in EU4.


"Pdox said in the dev diaries, they decided for that system because they wanted to somewhat simulate that a country stagnate if it gets a bad monarch... I think that goal is achieved."

But basically, playing EU4, I'm in the position of the monarch. So my country should stagnate if I'm doing shit. Not on a roll of a dice. At least, the stats of the monarch should make some specific sense.
 

unmerged(780209)

Major
1 Badges
Aug 5, 2013
509
4
  • Europa Universalis IV
In real life a government can increase it's administrative powers by hiring more bureaucrats. They can increase diplomacy and trade tech by hiring more diplomats and pay for research in trade. They can improve technology by building universities, and hiring scientists and war engineers and so on.

This is actually a very good point and worth discussing.

You do all this in EUIV, but it's nerfed. A better system would be to model the results of all this: every time a state modernized in history during this period, they generated winners and losers, and the losers tended to get angry and rebellious.

EX: Modernize the military. The feudal lords see their power decline relative to the monarch and they don't like it. Consequence: Stability loss.

A bigger, richer country can be as effective (or most likely more effective) as two countries of half the size. In EU4, two countries of half the size will on average generate almost two times the monarch points. This is why vassal feeding is great. They spend monarch points for you. However, in real life it would be more effective just to annex them, and use the resources of the other country to expand your own bureaucracy. That is why monarchs should have skills from 0 to 3. And instead have advisers from skill 1 to 6. Trading in tea would be OP as fuck though, so perhaps scale that adviser cost reduction modifier.

As I recall in EUIII advisers could get up to 6 skill level. That should certainly be true in EUIV as well. And they should be cheaper. In fact, I think that the AI should NOT be charged a thing to get advisers.

Have any of you checked AI countries and seen that very often they don't even have a single adviser? I think they do this as a cost savings mechanism. But, it's self defeating.

One thing about this game -- a resource rich environment would favor the AI a lot more.

Two possible game states:

1. Resource poor. Everybody struggles to get money and MP. Result: The player is more adept at increasing both. The AI lags.

2. Resource rich. Everybody has lots of money and MP and the only choices are how you invest both. Result: The player has an advantage because he can utilize his resources better.

But, I think scenario #2 probably favors the AI more than scenario #1 because even though the player still does better, at least the AI has the resources to expand instead of sitting there and having a bunch of under-developed provinces.

Is there any reason for instance, why a rich nation like France doesn't have level 6 tax or trade buildings in every province after 150 years to maximize their income? Is there an intelligent player who wouldn't build manufactories in every home province because they're the most cost effective building?

I don't think Paradox ever seriously considered scenario #2 though because players would complain that "it's too easy!" Even though the AI would probably do better.

Right now the AI simply lags in development because it doesn't know how to generate more resources and simply husbands the ones it has rather than (say) going into debt in order to generate more income in the future by colonizing and developing the colonies.
 

Saintrl

Lt. General
46 Badges
Jul 9, 2013
1.300
52
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Read it all. Agree with all except the latest paragraph : I'm fine with the europe-centered approach of a game called Europa Universalis, giving advantage to Europe in a period that historically was a period of european dominance.
I recently replayed CK2 and I actually had more fun, despite the fact that I like plenty of things in EU4.


"Pdox said in the dev diaries, they decided for that system because they wanted to somewhat simulate that a country stagnate if it gets a bad monarch... I think that goal is achieved."

But basically, playing EU4, I'm in the position of the monarch. So my country should stagnate if I'm doing shit. Not on a roll of a dice. At least, the stats of the monarch should make some specific sense.
Ah yes, but remember all those times that you got an Imbecile Ruler with a regent who would screw you over every time you decided to go to war? Bad rulers are nothing new.
 

TrueCoppa

Captain
24 Badges
Mar 18, 2012
375
1
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
It just needs to be made so that if you're say, a constitutional monarchy, then having an awful monarch shouldn't screw your tech over so bad because monarchs are more like figureheads in a constitutional monarch and it doesn't matter if they're shitty.
 

unmerged(780209)

Major
1 Badges
Aug 5, 2013
509
4
  • Europa Universalis IV
Read it all. Agree with all except the latest paragraph : I'm fine with the europe-centered approach of a game called Europa Universalis, giving advantage to Europe in a period that historically was a period of european dominance.
I recently replayed CK2 and I actually had more fun, despite the fact that I like plenty of things in EU4.


"Pdox said in the dev diaries, they decided for that system because they wanted to somewhat simulate that a country stagnate if it gets a bad monarch... I think that goal is achieved."

But basically, playing EU4, I'm in the position of the monarch. So my country should stagnate if I'm doing shit. Not on a roll of a dice. At least, the stats of the monarch should make some specific sense.

This is just a stupid decision that they seem to be happy with. Perhaps they justify it historically. But, it makes for crappy game-play.

Biggest Reason Why: The AI. The AI can't possibly over-come a bad king.

Second biggest reason: It sucks! It's boring! What are you supposed to do for 30 years until your garbage monarch dies? Sit there?

Screw that! I re-load instantly. If there was some reasonable way to get around it, fine, I'd live with that level 0-0-0 monarch, but there isn't. (Except mods). So, re-load.

I'll bet that casual players routinely reload when they get a lousy monarch instead of abiding by the boredom of being able to do nothing until he dies.
 

Saintrl

Lt. General
46 Badges
Jul 9, 2013
1.300
52
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
This is just a stupid decision that they seem to be happy with. Perhaps they justify it historically. But, it makes for crappy game-play.

Biggest Reason Why: The AI. The AI can't possibly over-come a bad king.

Second biggest reason: It sucks! It's boring! What are you supposed to do for 30 years until your garbage monarch dies? Sit there?

Screw that! I re-load instantly. If there was some reasonable way to get around it, fine, I'd live with that level 0-0-0 monarch, but there isn't. (Except mods). So, re-load.

I'll bet that casual players routinely reload when they get a lousy monarch instead of abiding by the boredom of being able to do nothing until he dies.
Plenty of things you can do with a bad ruler... Of course, bad rulers are more lethal for small countries than large ones because large countries have the money to fund +3 advisors all day long. That reminds me of a certain administrative assistance in the event of a bad ruler...

The AI doesn't seem to mind, after all they already "cheat" a little bit to keep up with the player.

By the way, assigning your ruler as a general makes his lifespan noticeably shorter. There are various techniques you can use to kill your king quickly, you just need to learn how to pull it off.

Of course, there are some historical things that don't make sense in context of the game. But like all paradox games, not everything can be historically replicated perfectly.
 

Kraxis

General
50 Badges
Jan 17, 2011
2.032
9
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Ancient Space
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
I don't think Paradox ever seriously considered scenario #2 though because players would complain that "it's too easy!" Even though the AI would probably do better.
The other way round I think. PI won't do that because the player feels he achieves more when he is poor, regardless of the fact that the AI spends it's resources poorly and thus performs worse than in Case 2. It sounds similar, but in your case it is the player looking in, in my case it is PI looking out. And that is important as it means PI is pro-active and seriously considers what is 'best', rather than reacting to responses (or worse, fears poor response).

However, sometimes I get the feeling that we are all part of a human experiment. Now now, I don't mean lab coats and test tubes, not hard like that. But PI has a history of coming up with interesting new mechanics (or alternatively really strange almost hairbrained ideas), release them into the wild and then observe how the 'animals' react to it. Based on that they then refine it. Sometimes it works well, sometimes less so. Particularly the HoI series have had a feeling of being a testbed at times, and I don't mean that in a negative way mind you. But it has had it's share of poor things (supply mechanics; the black hole in Hamhung: essentially both good and bad in one mechanic).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.