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PeterCorless

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What I would prefer to see for Modernization (call it that, not "Westernization") is as follows:

1. You research different technology branches independently to improve them. So if Japan just wants guns and large standing armies (Mil), and otherwise remains xenophobic (no Diplo reform) and archaic (no Admin reform), so be it. However, there is a consequence to independent development.

2. To balance out point #1, you should try to keep your Mil, Adm and Diplo advancements aligned based on internal and external societal modifiers if you get out of whack. If you have a far higher-reformed military than admin, for example, national revolt risk can go up, since you have a lot of dangerous weapons, but no corresponding advances in the rule of law to deal with them. If you have a higher military than diplo, then you can get negative relations modifiers with neighbors and a hit to your trade power, since you don't seem to be able to make fair trade deals without threatening to kill all your neighbor's merchants. This would help balance out the war-mongering. If your Admin gets really far ahead of Diplo and Military, your nation could start becoming far too bureaucratic (increasing inflation, lowering discipline). And if it gets too far ahead in Diplo, it could mean that there's a loss of cultural identity (lower missionary strength, lowered army morale). Something like that. Ideally, you want to be advancing everything around the same rate, and mechanics should support that.

3. Your investment slowly decrements your malus to tech up, +5% step improvements per decade, for instance. You can reform one tech, two, or all three at a time. Each additional track you are reforming simultaneously increases instability to the process. This process would commensurately gradually lower your cap of storable MPs. Each +5% malus burned away getting you closer and closer to modernization. Rather than these huge lurching movements to Modernize in a discreet period of time, you instead naturally adopt technology over time.

4. You should be able to make trade deals with more advanced nations to help speed up your Modernization. Alliances, Protectorates, Vassals, Client States, etc., should help you with the process. Of course, political rivals or enemies could potentially block your trade to slow it down (ex: embargoes, naval blockades during war).

5. Cap the tech malus at 100% at worst, rather than the +250% now. That would require even the most aggressively-modernizing ROTW nations 200 years (10 years per +5%) to totally Modernize. I'm still trying to understand why Sub-Saharan nations have only a +60% malus whereas North and South America are, crazily, +250%. Why would a 16th Century warrior from, say, the Niger Delta be that much more technologically advanced than a Cherokee?

6. Allow nations that "modernize" to various levels to switch their unit types to a culture which they border or otherwise identify with. Maybe an Andean free state could eventually have Red Coats, especially if they had been helped in modernization by Great Britain.

7. Require an idea group to be finished per tech tree to undertake Modernization in that tech tree. For instance, until you complete an Admin idea group, you can't modernize your administration tech. Until you finish a Military idea group, you can't reform your army. Until you finish a Diplo idea group, you can't reform your navy. This would push back anyone from even starting to fully modernize until they get at least three idea groups completed, which shouldn't happen until around 1550-1600. However, some nations might want to partially modernize their nation before that, dealing with whatever malus is associated with such an imbalanced modernization.

A system like this, to my mind, gives players choices and varying strategies ("Do I want to start rushing modernization, or wait until all three idea groups are unlocked and keep the process balanced?" "Do I want to asymmetrically develop my nation for a tactical advantage, or keep everything even?"), makes technology adoption more of a gradual, natural process than the current "revolutionary" path, and generally seems to fit history better.

What are your thoughts and suggestions to improve this idea?
 
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Sarmatian

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It would have been better if we consolidated it all in place. I started this thread on westernization a few days ago, unfortunately, it already fell to the third page. Westernization is a big aspect of the game and it really should be improved.

It may appear rude, but I believe my suggestion is better. I don't really mind whose is it, as long as it improves westernization. I don't think we should be too bothered about whether it's Modernization or Westernization. We should be talking about game mechanic, not get bogged down in needless political correctness, even if I personally agree that Modernization would be a better term.

There are several problems here, in my opinion:

1) Independent research of technology branches - you research to improve your research? It's a bit nonsensical.
2) Even if it would work how would you balance it? Everyone from the same tech group would westernize at approximately the same point in time.
3) In the end, everyone would westernize.


EDIT: Maybe you should post in my thread, to try to have a better discussion. Or do you want me to post my suggestion here? It might be better if you posted as my thread has been read more by now, but I don't mind either way. I think we should create one thread in the end and stick to it.
 
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PeterCorless

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I like your ideas on establishing some sort of index on the "need to Westernize" — when you feel threatened, when you have more in common with a technologically-advanced neighbor than your backwards relatives, etc. However, I still feel it vital to allow Westernization to proceed on individual tech branches. Japan went gonzo for firearms, for example, and made 300,000 copies within a decade from a pair of Portuquese-provided arquebuses, but really didn't care much else for what the Portuguese had to offer. They certainly did not adopt other aspects of European culture until the late 19th Century.

The word "research" may be used loosely. Unfortunately, unlike Vicky 2, there is no real "research" point system in the game. Basically you are investing in bringing down the malus for your tech research, until you are on par with other "modern" nations. Note that you may still be far behind in tech level. The cost to bring this malus down, to my mind, could be "paid" with both money (a research "investment tax" if you will) as well as Monarch points (based on a periodic drain; I don't think you should be able to "rush" or just "click to ding!").

The problem is, though, that there are no "fractional" MPs, and having to invest even 1 MP per month is too much for this to be worth any sort of ROI. It makes me think the cost might be better done quarterly or annually.

The "entry criteria" for Westernizing may also be based on, say, having an "enlightened ruler) (4+ in a technology realm). So a 4/4/4 could start Westernizing all three tech trees, but a 4/4/2 could only start modernizing his admin and diplo — he wouldn't get the finer points of military modernization. So, if your ruler died, and you hadn't modernized yet, you could get stuck until you got another enlightened ruler in that area.

I don't feel like it should be some sort of radical, revolutionary process. That's not what we're talking about in the 15th-19th Century. What we're talking about is gradually adopting the scientific revolution, mercantilism, and other institutions of nation states.

For now, thank you for trying to get all our ideas together, yet for now, I'd like to keep these threads as independent takes on how to improve this aspect of the game. I welcome discussion and debate on the ideas, and maybe we can cobble the best ideas of both into a synthesis proposal.
 
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PeterCorless

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I definitely agree that the "fall behind to get ahead" illogic be done away with. I kind of like the idea that you need to develop a certain technology set to Westernize. Maybe a special idea group that is discarded once you Westernize.

Definitely Westernization should be the exception, not the rule. Not everyone did it. There should be a cost, and it should take time.
 
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moorsonthecoast

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Axe99 has something to add:

Axe99 said:
At the moment, with the rate of westernisation, it sometimes feels we might as well be playing on a random map with randomly generated empires, rather than a historical GSG. Still a very fun game, but the current westernisation thing is the second-silliest part of the game to me (first silliest is that trade only moves in one direction). I'd prefer if PDS wanted to make a 'balanced' world conquest game, that they did away with history altogether and made a fantasy-style game, rather than move EU in that direction.

Also - what is westernisation anyways? Originally, it meant you got the same units as western powers, now it just means cheaper teching - so you have the odd situation where we've somehow automatically given developing nations the intellectual/economic infrastructure of a western nation (the stuff you need to develop things with), but they're not allowed to convert this into western-style units, ever. It's a really, really odd mechanic, and comfortably the most historically implausible mechanic in the game at the moment. How many nations effectively westernised historically? As far as I recall, the only one that could be argued to have done it was Peter the Great's Russia.

Some thoughts (not all consistent with each other, just brainstorming) on ways to deal with the whole 'different types of nations' issues:

- Different idea groups for western/chinese/muslim nations.
- Different military unit options based on idea groups, rather than being 'European/Muslim', what-have-you.
- Idea groups having prerequisites and more granularity.
- Having the potential to access specific 'western' idea groups, if certain conditions are met - that way, you could have historically plausible developments of certain things, but not the whole 'just sit still for eight years and you're there'.
- Have the prerequisite for any kind of westernisation to be as close to 'advanced' as possible - the idea that you need to be under-developed to have a chance to develop is crazy. A nation that wants to westernise should need to burn its MP on tech, rather than avoid teching. This way, bordering a western nation (even a trade company) gets you the 'neighbour bonus', which is all the help non-western countries should get.
- A more nuanced model for MP cost for techs. Current model is pretty rough'n'ready.
 
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Sarmatian

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If we allow westernization of individual tech branches, the problem is
Something like that. Ideally, you want to be advancing everything around the same rate, and mechanics should support that.

If the mechanics support advancing at the same pace in all tech groups and penalize specialization, then there's little point in allowing advancement at a separate pace. If the penalties aren't so severe, everyone would westernize in military first and proceed to conquer the world.

Having it connected to ruler skill is too much luck based, in a game where too much is left to RNG already. Furthermore, it would make non western republics OP and we'd see players making effort to switch to republic from day 1 as a non western country.

Before starting the brainstorm, I've set up some guidelines:

1) westernization should be more interesting and involve the player making some decisions

In my opinion, your proposal works well in this regard

2) It should be hard but achievable

It doesn't work well in relation to this. For most countries westernization would be a slow, steady process over a long period of time, with little risk if done properly

3) Not everyone should be able to westernize in every game

It doesn't work well here, either. Since it isn't connected to any external factors, all countries, even those isolated would be able to westernize at the same pace as those having contact with westerners, and at roughly a same point in time. We'd have entire Indian tech group spontaneously westernized, then entire Chinese and so on. This is also important to devs, since they won't allow westernization off trade companies.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to advance in separate areas. As I've mentioned in another thread, at first I thought doing away with tech groups and having some sort of bad "non-western" modifiers. Those modifiers would be different for different nations. If some nations were good at military organization, they wouldn't have any penalties to military, but they could have penalties in tax efficiency. Other countries would have good trade efficiency but less efficient military. Some would manpower penalties, some would have discipline penalties, some really isolated countries would have a tech malus and so on. You'd remove those modifiers by a series of reform. The problem is that it would be really complicated and those with no military penalties would easily dominate and, of course, players would always move to eliminate military penalties first just about every time.

I don't think Paradox is ready to completely remodel westernization, as it functions in pretty much the same way in both EUIII and EUIV. That's why I argued for only a slightly more complex system, which is elastic and dynamic.
 
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