• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(5639)

Captain
Sep 4, 2001
407
0
Re: Re: Gripen

Originally posted by Janbalk

Yes it may very well give most value for the money, but will not be able to stand up to Eurofighter or F-22 in a one to one comparison so its lucky you can get more Grippen for the same money:).
In the end it perhaps up to the pilot how he use his tools:)
 

unmerged(90)

Marshall Ombre
Feb 13, 2000
3.550
0
Visit site
The F-22 will probably be a good plane... when it is operational in a few years.
Amongst operationnal airplanes, they are all fairly equal (I could just say the Rafale is the best just to add a bit of natioalism but I don't have a clue)...

Then one thing I know is that saying the F-15 (or anything else) is the best means nothing as all these airplanes have been updates, improved, etc. F-15 are build in the USA, in Israel, in Japan with different systems and the same can be said for many planes.
Then pilot training is about the same in all Western countries, with Israeli pilots said to be the best due to "real operational practice".

A few years ago (end of the 90's), the brand new Mirage 2000-5 were engaged in the Red Flag operations in Nevada and made the F-16 and F-14 look like pieces of scrap. I guess the situation would be different with the latest version of these planes this year.

One thing is sure, they are all nice beasts. :)
 

unmerged(5120)

Quartermaster General
Jul 30, 2001
1.218
0
Visit site
What's the best aircraft depends a lot on doctrine and how applicable that doctrine is.

If you have AWACS available, then a US-type doctrine (long-range engagements) is probably best. In that case, how maneuverable an aircraft is is decidedly secondary to how good are the battle management system, electronics, avionics and missiles. Do you outrange the other guy, can you burn through his jamming, get a lock before him, keep it while he can't, etc... If your missile's still got maneuverability after travelling all those miles to its target and the other guy's has lost you (or can't even reach) you stand a good chance to win regardless of wether your own plane's a good dogfighter or else.

For this kind of work, planes like the F-14D (the one on which the targetting system really works), and AMRAAM-equipped F-15 and F-22 have a real edge, the F-22 really standing above the crowd if the plane to plane datalink I've heard about is really implemented (i.e., it lets one plane's missiles to get targetting data from another plane).

If all this fancy air battlespace management doesn't work that well, however, you'd better be prepared for a good dogfight.

Here the F-22's really very good again. The Sukhoi may be able to perform really fancy maneuvers, but the F-22 can actually fly and keep flying at angles of attack any other plane in the world (except the Harrier, of course) would eventually stall.

Of course, missile performance (in thais case, short-range IR types like the Sidewinder) is very important also. I guess the best short-range missile today must be IAI's Python-4, followed by Matra's R-550 and the AIM-9M. I have no idea where the Russian AA-11 stands.

In simulated engagements between F-22 and Eurofighter, Rafale, Grippen, etc... the kill ratio hovers around 10:1 in favor of the F-22. I guess that nails it.

Apart from this crowd, the best aircraft is usually whichever one has the best pilot (provided the tech levels aren't too dissimilar) - so be careful if you intend to fight the Israelis!

Sidenote: the superlative American training standard has usually been mostly a myth (except in the USN: carrier landings make short work of average pilots) when compared to other Western air forces. CW pecking order in the early 90's was Israelis, USN, French, USAF-RAF, Luftwaffe, Rest of the West+Japan+Russia's best, etc...

Since everybody's stepped training down since then, it's a good question what the standings are today, except I'd guess the Israelis have kept their edge, and the carrier crowd can't afford to train less anyway (so that leaves the handful of French naval aviators in the quite interesting position of being amongst the best pilots in the world while flying some of the worst junk).

It'll also be interesting to see what happens with the RAF when they get real dogfighters again.
 

unmerged(5384)

Captain
Aug 16, 2001
349
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Sire Enaique

Sidenote: the superlative American training standard has usually been mostly a myth (except in the USN: carrier landings make short work of average pilots) when compared to other Western air forces. CW pecking order in the early 90's was Israelis, USN, French, USAF-RAF, Luftwaffe, Rest of the West+Japan+Russia's best, etc...

Curious to know how you arrived at your pecking order. By the early 1990s, the Israelis hadn't fought a real air war for almost 20 years (since 1973). Why would they be ahead of the US? Also, where did you hear this myth about US training standards? Lastly, you put the French pilots ahead of the USAF-RAF and Luftwaffe. Could you substantiate on these? Thanks!
 
Jul 5, 2001
658
0
Visit site
I think our pilots have a training comparabile with the major powers. That due to the tactics developed to intercept the Russians during the cold war.

Actually the manouvers carried out by Viggen pilots chased bu SU-27 during the 80's resulted in russian casulties, they missed to pick it up before they hit the Baltic sea...

As an interceptor built to interccept Russian contructions and not American planes Gripen fits well for a minor European fighter. The long range and extreme capabilities of the F-22 is not so necessery when you have home bases and Russian construction and aviators to fight.

So I say that even if the F-22 is superior to both the Eurofighter and the JA-39 Gripen. Is Gripen a good choice for European minor nations.
 

unmerged(5120)

Quartermaster General
Jul 30, 2001
1.218
0
Visit site
That assessment was mostly based on two sources: the pilot-talk I heard while in the French army (I did my military service as a librarian at the IHEDN, a strategy joint-services college for LTC's and colonels with a starry future. based on their experience of training with other air forces, the air force guys had a very healthy respect for Israeli and USN pilots, and a very healthy respect for USAF planes ), and on Gary Morgan's (then cpt, USAF) design notes for his tactical air combat games. Both assessments concurred so I guess there's a grain of truth there.

I also know an ex-BAe engineer who used to work on military aircraft projects who has basically the same opinion based on his experiences with test pilots from both sides of the pond (though HE ranks the RAF above the USAF:p )

Add in odds and ends grabbed frome here and there (mostly from American sources) and you've got it. Not exactly a fancy survey, but converging opinions from three different pertinent sources.
 

unmerged(469)

Rear Admiral
Nov 19, 2000
1.120
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Chimera


Curious to know how you arrived at your pecking order. By the early 1990s, the Israelis hadn't fought a real air war for almost 20 years (since 1973).
Some occaisional contacts with the Syrians during this time, though.
 

unmerged(5120)

Quartermaster General
Jul 30, 2001
1.218
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Admiral Yi

Some occaisional contacts with the Syrians during this time, though.

what was the kill ratio in 1982? I remember it was quite staggering, but I can't find numbers.

Chimera: before you ask me about the missiles, check that website:
http://www.fas.org/man/index.html
 

unmerged(3115)

Captain
Apr 18, 2001
428
0
Visit site
The harrier is the worlds best fighter IMHO. Not as a role as a air supremacy fighter but as a allround versatile plane.
Certainly earned honours vs the mirages of argentina.

Oh and the f-18 isnt a all weather aircraft so that rules it out of contention IMHO.
 

unmerged(5384)

Captain
Aug 16, 2001
349
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Sire Enaique
That assessment was mostly based on two sources: the pilot-talk I heard while in the French army (I did my military service as a librarian at the IHEDN, a strategy joint-services college for LTC's and colonels with a starry future. based on their experience of training with other air forces, the air force guys had a very healthy respect for Israeli and USN pilots, and a very healthy respect for USAF planes ), and on Gary Morgan's (then cpt, USAF) design notes for his tactical air combat games. Both assessments concurred so I guess there's a grain of truth there.

Add in odds and ends grabbed frome here and there (mostly from American sources) and you've got it. Not exactly a fancy survey, but converging opinions from three different pertinent sources.

OK thanks, although I'm still somewhat surprised that the Israelis come first, and French being placed ahead of USAF/RAF/Luftwaffe. I'd place the USN first, followed by the USAF/RAF, then Luftwaffe, then other Western countries... of course, I have no easily available sources of my own, so perhaps we'll just agree to disagree for now. :)

I'm also curious as to how a pilot's skill is ascertained, and how accurate such procedures are. When major powers hold joint air exercises, they all fly their own aircraft, which are different in terms of performance, and unless there are special simulators/machines which can rate pilots accurately, how do you determine just how good pilots are?
 

unmerged(598)

Lt. General
Dec 27, 2000
1.520
1
Visit site
Originally posted by Belrick
The harrier is the worlds best fighter IMHO. Not as a role as a air supremacy fighter but as a allround versatile plane.
Certainly earned honours vs the mirages of argentina.

Oh and the f-18 isnt a all weather aircraft so that rules it out of contention IMHO.

The harrier is completely outclassed by modern fighters, and completely outclassed by modern attack planes. Neither is it as versatile as either the F15/16/18-SuperHornet in fighter/attack roles.

It doesn't have the speed, range or load capacity to compete. It is however, a marvellous plane in the circumstances it was designed for. No runway, STOL Carriers, and it's VTOL capability negates the need for a carrier in a stretch.
 

unmerged(90)

Marshall Ombre
Feb 13, 2000
3.550
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Chimera


OK thanks, although I'm still somewhat surprised that the Israelis come first, and French being placed ahead of USAF/RAF/Luftwaffe. I'd place the USN first, followed by the USAF/RAF, then Luftwaffe, then other Western countries... of course, I have no easily available sources of my own, so perhaps we'll just agree to disagree for now. :)

Sire and I being both French, we could have the same sources but I find his classification very typical and widely spread. A friend of mine, Mirage pilot who spent 2 years in a RAF squadron (on F-16 I think) as part of an exchange program, had the same views.

I'm also curious as to how a pilot's skill is ascertained, and how accurate such procedures are. When major powers hold joint air exercises, they all fly their own aircraft, which are different in terms of performance, and unless there are special simulators/machines which can rate pilots accurately, how do you determine just how good pilots are?
Just like the sources mentionned put it. Feelings, own experience, "experts" views, etc. As you put it, there is no objective scientific way to rate pilots. You can use hours of flight, combat training, real combat situation to have an idea but all in all, it is just ideas.
 

unmerged(469)

Rear Admiral
Nov 19, 2000
1.120
0
Visit site
Addressing the "myth" of the superiority of US pilot training, my understanding is that US methods are not necessarily superior, but rather the US is blessed with a number of training facilities that enjoy year-round flying weather, permitting more hours in the air.
 

unmerged(5384)

Captain
Aug 16, 2001
349
0
Visit site
Originally posted by yndenwal

Sire and I being both French, we could have the same sources but I find his classification very typical and widely spread. A friend of mine, Mirage pilot who spent 2 years in a RAF squadron (on F-16 I think) as part of an exchange program, had the same views.


And being French might make Sire (and yourself) just that bit less objective in rating your pilots, despite your other sources ;) BTW, don't believe the RAF has any F-16s but I could be wrong.
 

unmerged(90)

Marshall Ombre
Feb 13, 2000
3.550
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Chimera
[B
And being French might make Sire (and yourself) just that bit less objective in rating your pilots,
Sure enough, except that I am not myself rating pilots, just quoting what I have heard. Just like you with US pilots.
However, some sources mentionned by Sire are US.
I personnaly feel not qualified for having an enlightened opinion on the subject. I just feel that if we consider training capabilities, combat training, real combat operations and presence of CV-based pilots, then we shall agree that all of the US-Israeli-French-British pilots must -following this logic- be the top 4 trained crews in the world.

BTW, don't believe the RAF has any F-16s but I could be wrong. [/B]
Yep I was trying to recall on what plane he flew but couldn't. SO I guessed it must have been such a common thing as a F-16. But You're possibly right. What is the standard UK fighter ? Tornado is a fighter-bomber... ?
 

unmerged(5384)

Captain
Aug 16, 2001
349
0
Visit site
Originally posted by yndenwal

we shall agree that all of the US-Israeli-French-British pilots must -following this logic- be the top 4 trained crews in the world.


You forgot the Luftwaffe, or was that deliberate? ;)


Yep I was trying to recall on what plane he flew but couldn't. SO I guessed it must have been such a common thing as a F-16. But You're possibly right. What is the standard UK fighter ? Tornado is a fighter-bomber... ?


Tornados and Harriers I think. Agelastus? Hannibal?
 

unmerged(90)

Marshall Ombre
Feb 13, 2000
3.550
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Chimera
[You forgot the Luftwaffe, or was that deliberate? ;)

It was deliberate. The Luftwaffe has known no real combat mission in the last 55 years (except lately over Kosovo ?), which is why I would put it a bit aside. And when they train on attacking ships, they manage to sink fishermen... :S

Tornados and Harriers I think. Agelastus? Hannibal?
Checked, you're right. The Uk has no F-16. What the hell do they flight as standard fighters ? ?
 

unmerged(2539)

Lord of the Links
Mar 31, 2001
2.985
9
Visit site