Modding for Greater Germany and Manifest Destiny

[Irioth]

Hiya, I'm a HoI Armageddon experienced gamer who only recently discovered Victoria, and being rather more of a geopolitical management buff than a pure wargamer, I planned to switch enthusiastically, at least for a while (as soon as I get the CDs I ordered from Paradox, since GG is the most crappy e-seller donwloader software that I've ever had the misfortune to waste money on ). While I wait for my games, I've begun to plan some tinkering. Being an alternate history buff, I do not care much about strictly historical play, and I rather prefer to make my preferred alternate history scenarioes the default. I plan to install Victoria 1.04, Revolutions, the most recent hotfix, and Darkrenown's All In One Mod.

Specifically, I'm wondering about how to implement my preferred AH paths as the default development for AI and human player, just as I did in HoI. Everything is good for this goal, force-activating canon events with the F12 console, modding existing events, writing custom events, the less modding work the better, however. I need advice from veteran VIC/REV players about how to implement these changes.

Manifest Destiny: the USA annex Northern Mexico (say anything north of Veracruz, or even Mexico City), in addition to Texas, California, and Arizona-New Mexico, when (if) they win the Mexican-American war.

They also annex English Canada, from Ontario to Vancouver, when (if) they go to war with the UK for Oregon and/or Riel's Rebellion and win. Quebec may be annexed, or better released as a USA satellite.

Additionally, they buy/annex Cuba and the Dominican Republic in the '50s and '60s (historically this almost happened in 1854 for Cuba and 1869 for the Dominican Republic).

German Unification: Grossdeutschland (Greater Germany) unification by Prussia ought to become the default result, in addition to all the minor German states they should also get German Austria, Bohemia, and Moravia. Hungary and Croatia should become independent as German satellites. Lombardy, Venice, Trento, Trieste, and Dalmatia should go to Italy, or Piedmont. This should happen in both the Popular and Conservative unification paths, and also if Austria is defeated by Prussia in 1866. Possibly Hungary keeps Croatia if they are released in the Conservative Empire path, or Croatia goes independent if they are released in the Popular Unifcation path.

The Greater Germany state should always have the option of becoming a Constitutional Monarchy after the unification, regardless of previously going Monarchy in the Conservative Empire path, or Democracy in the Popular Unifcation path.

Germany should always have the option of going to war with Denmark for Schleswig (sp ?) and with France for the Spanish throne and get Alsace-Lorraine if they win, even if unification happens beforehand.

Scandinavia should always form, with Denmark, Norwegia, and Sweden, when Prussia/Germany and Denmark go to war, regardless of whether Denmark loses the war.

Italy should always get early unification, without French help, as soon as Piedmont occupies the other Italian minors, and/or it gets Lombardy-Venice and Trento/Trieste from the collapse of the Hapsburg empire.

if Italy cedes Savoy and Nice to France, and Franco-Prussian war happens, they ought to have the option to ally with Germany/Prussia, and get Nice, Savoy, and Corsica if they win.

Some general questions: in HoI, when a new nation is released by the human player or by an event, it is automatically a puppet/satellite of the releasing state. Is it so in Victoria, too ?

Barring a custom event, I understand that you can always cause a MON to go CM with reforms, but you need a Reactionary revolution (via f12-forced event) to go Monarchy from Democracy. Is there a similar revolution event to go from Democracy to CM ?

I also seem to understand that differently from HoI, in Vic/Rev you cannot f12-force an event if the prerequisites are not met. Is it so ? Can this limitation be bypassed, short of modding the event(s) ?

I understand that by default Victoria code gives a rough 95% ai_chance to the a_option (less, about 85% if there are more than two choices). If you give an explicit ai_chance to the options, is this setup bypassed ?

 

[LordInsane]

Trieste shouldn't go to Italy in such a case. Too German. If it did, Germany would probably end up taking it back as soon as they could.

If released by the player, the new state will be either a satellite or a Dominion (which works like a satellite, only with an automatic full military alliance instead of an automatic defensive military alliance). Unfortunanely, I don't know what decides what the state is released as.
In events, the make satellite/dominion commands, if used when the state targeted doesn't exist, and the nation that has the event hold necessary territory for it to be released, the state will be released, as either a satellite or a dominion, depending on which command was used.

 

[Irioth]

Trieste shouldn't go to Italy in such a case. Too German. If it did, Germany would probably end up taking it back as soon as they could.

As an Italian history buff, I have to disagree most heartily. Trieste is or ought to be an Italian core, its majority population always was Italian, there were a powerful Italian irredentist movement that claimed it, its German population was a tiny minority, German nationalism (as opposed to the dynastic Hapsburg state) had little interest in either Trento, Trieste or Dalmatia, if Austria-Hungary collapses as a result of German unification or a lost war, they should go to Italy (or Piedmont).

If released by the player, the new state will be either a satellite or a Dominion (which works like a satellite, only with an automatic full military alliance instead of an automatic defensive military alliance). Unfortunanely, I don't know what decides what the state is released as.
In events, the make satellite/dominion commands, if used when the state targeted doesn't exist, and the nation that has the event hold necessary territory for it to be released, the state will be released, as either a satellite or a dominion, depending on which command was used.

I see. Nice to know. Then to adjust German unification to my tastes it is necessary an event that annexes Austria to Germany if popular/conservative German unification happens (maybe better separate events for the conservative and popular unification paths) or Austria-Hungary loses the 1866 war (and gives Germany a massive badboy reduction to compensate), then another event that releases Hungary with Transylvania, Croatia (either independent or part of Hungary), and gives Italian provinces to Italy/Piedmont.

 

[LordInsane]

As an Italian history buff, I have to disagree most heartily. Trieste is or ought to be an Italian core, its majority population always was Italian, there were a powerful Italian irredentist movement that claimed it, its German population was a tiny minority, German nationalism (as opposed to the dynastic Hapsburg state) had little interest in either Trento, Trieste or Dalmatia, if Austria-Hungary collapses as a result of German unification or a lost war, they should go to Italy (or Piedmont).

Actually, my mind seemed to have gone AWOL there.
Trieste should be Italian, yes.

German nationalism did have a interest in Trento, though. The German minority was larger back then, and the German nationalist movemement was interested in the area. It helps that the basic linguistical border wasn't that defensible, which is why too much went to Italy after the Great War.
If they had gone for Grossdeutschland, or even Grossösterreich (Germany+the entire Habsburg Empire), then they would have desired it, and attempted to keep it. Given that Italy/Piedmont would get, depending on the year, at least Trieste, a decrease in Habsburg meddling in Italy to keep them disunited, and possibly even Lombardy and Venice, they might even accept. After all, Germany would be very large and powerful...

 

[Irioth]

Actually, my mind seemed to have gone AWOL there.
Trieste should be Italian, yes.

German nationalism did have a interest in Trento, though. The German minority was larger back then, and the German nationalist movemement was interested in the area. It helps that the basic linguistical border wasn't that defensible, which is why too much went to Italy after the Great War.
If they had gone for Grossdeutschland, or even Grossösterreich (Germany+the entire Habsburg Empire), then they would have desired it, and attempted to keep it. Given that Italy/Piedmont would get, depending on the year, at least Trieste, a decrease in Habsburg meddling in Italy to keep them disunited, and possibly even Lombardy and Venice, they might even accept. After all, Germany would be very large and powerful...

True. As it concerns Trento, you may be right, however it depends on how the province is shaped up in VIC. Please notice I don't own the game yet (or better I do but the shitty GG installer refuses to work properly ) so I can't check the map yet, but if Trento is done as in HoI, then it's the mixing up of two very different ethnic areas. The southern Trento proper, which is almost completely Italian, and the Northern South Tirol, which is almost completely German (in Vic's time. Mussolin did encourage Italian immigration, which created a sizable Italian minority). If the game conflates them, then we have a very mixed German-Italian province that could go either way, depending on the current balance of power between the two states. Had they been separate provinces, it is likely that moderate German and Italian nationalists would have found an easy compromise by splitting Trento proper to Italy, and South Tirol to Germany.

After all, German and Italian (and Hungarian) nationalism would have a powerful common interest in dismantling the Hapsburg empire and divvying its spoils. As such, a compromise would likely be found, but honestly I cannot tell whether it's better to give unified Trento (if it's such in VIC) province to Greater Germany or Italy in the German unification events. Surely, if it goes to Germany, Italians would have to be mollified with Trieste and Dalmatia. It's a strong strategic interest for Greater Germany to have powerful Italian and Hungary allies that do not have too many irredentist claims against it, and be somewhat less fragile from nationalist minorities than historic A-H was. This way, the Triple Alliance would be much more stronger and likely to stay together in a war with France, Russia, or both.

True Greater Germany would not be completely nationally compact itself, as it would include Czech and Polish minorities in Bohemia-Moravia and Pozen (and Alsace-Lorraine if war with France happens), but no way I can see Germany giving up *those*, they are far too precious economically and strategically. Prussian boot would clamp down those restless minorities *very hard*. They might be willing to set up a Polish rump puppet state instead of outright annexation if they can ever wrest Poland proper from Russia, like they would do with the Baltic States, Finland, Belarus, and Ukraine, but Bohemia-Moravia-Silesia, Danzig and Pozen-Wartheland are going to stay with Greater Germany, if it's anything but thoroughly vanquished.

Likewise, Greater Hungary would keep and clamp down hard Transylvania with its Romanian minority, and Croatia if they can get it at all. Now, this is an issue I cannot decide myself completely and need advice. What's the best fate of Croatia in the Hapsburg empire dismantling from German unification ? Should they go independent, or be kept in Greater Hungary ? Tentatively, I suggest they should go independent (err, German satellite) in the popular unification path, and be incorporated in Greater Hungary in the conservative empire and three Hurrahs paths. Also, I've no clear idea where Slovenia should end up, whether to Greater Germany, Italy, or independent Croatia. Not independent, if I can. I loathe micro-nation-states.

Whether the Greater Hungary ally-satellite of Greater Germany would be willing to mess in Balkan expansionism like Hapsburg empire did... Well, if they did get Croatia they would likely willing to get Bosnia. Them having Croatia and Bosnia would likely cause friction and maybe wars with an independent Serbia, and tension with a Panslavist Russia. But anyway, if Greater Germany forms, and triggers the formation of somewhat-Greater Italy and Hungary, I foresee the very likely development of the Germany-Hungary-Italy and France-Russia alliances. UK and "Manifest Destiny" Greater USA (if it ever takes interest in European issues) are the wild cards here.

Suggestions ? Any comments on the other issues I've raised ?

 

[LordInsane]

True. As it concerns Trento, you may be right, however it depends on how the province is shaped up in VIC. Please notice I don't own the game yet (or better I do but the shitty GG installer refuses to work properly ) so I can't check the map yet, but if Trento is done as in HoI, then it's the mixing up of two very different ethnic areas. The southern Trento proper, which is almost completely Italian, and the Northern South Tirol, which is almost completely German (in Vic's time. Mussolin did encourage Italian immigration, which created a sizable Italian minority). If the game conflates them, then we have a very mixed German-Italian province that could go either way, depending on the current balance of power between the two states. Had they been separate provinces, it is likely that moderate German and Italian nationalists would have found an easy compromise by splitting Trento proper to Italy, and South Tirol to Germany.

Yes, the problem is, as I said, that that border isn't very defensible (well, for being in the Alps, in any case), which was why that compromise wasn't as easy as it would look at first glance. Austria (that is, in revolt.txt, as opposed to what they start with) does hold a core on Trento, by the way.
It's up to you to decide, though.

As for the other issues...
Croatia as a German satellite/dominion in Democratic Unification, but Croatia as a part of Hungary in the other parts sounds right.
Slovenia might go to Germany. It did, in fact, have a sizable German minority (practically all of East and Central Europe had German minority sprinkled about, it seems), and as opposed to Überwald (ahem, Transylvania), they weren't on the other side of many, many non-Germans. It might go to to Italy, though. I think Croatia wouldn't be that likely, though...

 

[Irioth]

Yes, the problem is, as I said, that that border isn't very defensible (well, for being in the Alps, in any case), which was why that compromise wasn't as easy as it would look at first glance. Austria (that is, in revolt.txt, as opposed to what they start with) does hold a core on Trento, by the way.
It's up to you to decide, though.

I see. Then it's a matter of blance of power, and in a combined Greater German/Italian unification, Germany is way overwhelming and would likely keep Trento. Or maybe set up an event in the unification chain, by which Germany chooses whether to keep Trento or hand it over to Italy.

On second thoughts, I've realized that a Greater German unification would necessarily trigger Italian unification as well. The dismantling of the Hapsburg empire, which was the main force keeping Italy forcibly divided, the return of Lombardy, Venice, and Trieste, would cause a massive upsurge of Italian nationalism that would sweep away the Italian minors like matchsticks, like it happened in 1859-60. So the event chain would include one that returns Lombardy, Venice, and Trieste to Piedmont, and triggers Italian unification.

It is possible that a clerical undemocratic France might intervene to keep the Rome province (not the rest of the Papal States, though) in the Pope's hands, but that's all.

It is also overwhelmingly likely that an Italy which unifies so would enter full alliance with Greater Germany, as would Hungary (and Croatia if it exists at all), and build a modified early Triple Alliance. One that would be far less prone that falling apart, as Italy and Hungary would have less conflicting nationalistic claims, and Italian unification would have happened at Germany's behest, not France's.

As for the other issues...
Croatia as a German satellite/dominion in Democratic Unification, but Croatia as a part of Hungary in the other parts sounds right.
Slovenia might go to Germany. It did, in fact, have a sizable German minority (practically all of East and Central Europe had German minority sprinkled about, it seems), and as opposed to Überwald (ahem, Transylvania), they weren't on the other side of many, many non-Germans. It might go to to Italy, though. I think Croatia wouldn't be that likely, though...

Yes. Good ideas. Thanks. Then another issue is the fate of Dalmatia. It could be handed over to Italy, or to Croatia/Hungary (another of those pesky areas with mixed nationalities). Personally, I'd reckon Italy somewhat more likely (it would be a good compensation for Trento). Maybe, just like for Trento, set up an event in the unification chain, by which Germany chooses whether to hand Dalmatia over to Italy, or to Croatia/Hungary.

Another issue yet is whether France and/or Russia would choose to intervene in the Greater Germany/Hungary/Italy unification chain. A France/Russia vs. Germany/Hungary/Italy would be an early WWI all over again (albeit one that the Central Powers are rather more likely to win, as UK would surely stay neutral). I suppose Russia could be mollified by being given Austrian Poland and Galicia, and promises about support for Russian remilitarization of the Black Sea. France could be (temporarily) mollified by sacrificing Luxembourg and Savoy/Nice, and secret promises about partition of Belgium (secret since UK would never stand idle for it), but I think in an handful of years France would still go to war to re-establish dominant position in Europe (esp. if Napoleon III is in power). Even more so since Germany is likely to claim back Luxembourg in time. So Franco-German war would still happen, but with Italy as an ally of Germany. If France loses, it hands over Alsace-Lorraine, Nice-Savoy, and Luxembourg, and allows Italy to annex Rome. If Germany/Italy lose, hmm, maybe demilitarization, humiliation, and heavy reparations. I doubt UK would allow France to stand unchallenged in Europe by totally reversing the unifications.

 

[LordInsane]

Yes. Good ideas. Thanks. Then another issue is the fate of Dalmatia. It could be handed over to Italy, or to Croatia/Hungary (another of those pesky areas with mixed nationalities). Personally, I'd reckon Italy somewhat more likely (it would be a good compensation for Trento). Maybe, just like for Trento, set up an event in the unification chain, by which Germany chooses whether to hand Dalmatia over to Italy, or to Croatia/Hungary.

Another issue yet is whether France and/or Russia would choose to intervene in the Greater Germany/Hungary/Italy unification chain. A France/Russia vs. Germany/Hungary/Italy would be an early WWI all over again (albeit one that the Central Powers are rather more likely to win, as UK would surely stay neutral). I suppose Russia could be mollified by being given Austrian Poland and Galicia, and promises about support for Russian remilitarization of the Black Sea. France could be (temporarily) mollified by sacrificing Luxembourg and Savoy/Nice, and secret promises about partition of Belgium (secret since UK would never stand idle for it), but I think in an handful of years France would still go to war to re-establish dominant position in Europe (esp. if Napoleon III is in power). Even more so since Germany is likely to claim back Luxembourg in time. So Franco-German war would still happen, but with Italy as an ally of Germany. If France loses, it hands over Alsace-Lorraine, Nice-Savoy, and Luxembourg, and allows Italy to annex Rome. If Germany/Italy lose, hmm, maybe demilitarization, humiliation, and heavy reparations. I doubt UK would allow France to stand unchallenged in Europe by totally reversing the unifications.

The Germany-decides idea for Trento and Dalmatia sounds like a good compromise, which only leaves the problem of deciding which state they are more likely to go to...
Italy probably wouldn't accept handing over Savoy/Nice to France just to appease France, and keep them from attacking Germany, I'd say, and the UK might intervene, if they can find a casus belli to motivate the public. The Balance of Power in Europe is, after all, hurt even more then with the OTL unifications, since there'd be a super-strong block of nations dominating Central Europe, as opposed to one strong nation allied to a decaying strongish empire and an unreliable nation with claims against portions of said decaying empire.
Also, Corsica: If France losses to the Germano-Italo-Hungarian Alliance, it is not that unlikely to be handed over. They speak something that is closer to an Italian dialect then a French dialect, it used to count as a part of Italy, just as Sardinia used to, and other things, enough for there to be a core on it.

 

[Irioth]

The Germany-decides idea for Trento and Dalmatia sounds like a good compromise, which only leaves the problem of deciding which state they are more likely to go to...

Hmm, I'd say Trento is rather more likely to go to Germany and Dalmatia to Italy.

Italy probably wouldn't accept handing over Savoy/Nice to France just to appease France, and keep them from attacking Germany, I'd say,

Yes, but let's not forget that if Italy forms from this event chain, it becomes an ally of Germany from the start, not an ally of France as in OTL, so they would hand over those territories to avoid being attacked, themselves At least until they and the rest of the Central Powers had not yet some years of organizing their new states under their belt.

Some years after the unifications, it's another matter entirely. A 1870-like Franco-German-Italian war is definitely possible and likely.

and the UK might intervene, if they can find a casus belli to motivate the public. The Balance of Power in Europe is, after all, hurt even more then with the OTL unifications, since there'd be a super-strong block of nations dominating Central Europe, as opposed to one strong nation allied to a decaying strongish empire and an unreliable nation with claims against portions of said decaying empire.

Well, it's theoretically possible. But I'd reckon that the casus belli is flimsly and therefore the likelihood of the UK goes to war on this is low (say 1-5%). For two reasons: the British only really care if the Balance of Power is completely overthrown (say a single power dominates the continent from Normandy to Moscow), not if it's simply radically readjusted. France and Russia remain as a very strong power block to balance the Central Powers. Moreover, the balance of power in Europe is only a secondary concern to them, after the security of the Empire. For most of the Victorian Age, until Germany builds enough of a fleet in 1900-1910 to threaten British dominance of the sea, France and Russia are the main threats to the British Empire, not the Central Powers. Historically, the British were sympathetic to Italian and German unifications.

Also, Corsica: If France losses to the Germano-Italo-Hungarian Alliance, it is not that unlikely to be handed over. They speak something that is closer to an Italian dialect then a French dialect, it used to count as a part of Italy, just as Sardinia used to, and other things, enough for there to be a core on it.

A very good point, that I'd overlooked. Alsace-Lorraine and Luxembourg to Germany, Nice, Savoy, and Corsica to Italy.

 

[unmerged(92769)]

I think that USA Manifest Destinty should give it claims on every province in Canada, Alaska (Add event for early buy, if Russians refuse, add War event), Mexico, and Carribean. I also think that during the Civil War, Quebec should revolt (along with rest of Canada) and in the South, The Carribeans (if taken early) should revolt ( think of CSA event for "Annextation of Carribeans" and if Cuba gains independence Spain intervenes, or if Carribeans didnt get taken then Mexico should declare war on CSA. Also later in the game if USA becomes a huge giant, South America should declare war and join the Allies and USA the Axis. (Massive revolts in Pro-england Canada and +5 infantry divisons from Pro-German New York/ South.) and if CSA gets independence then a Turtledove-style Great War.

 

[Irioth]

I think that USA Manifest Destinty should give it claims on every province in Canada, Alaska (Add event for early buy, if Russians refuse, add War event), Mexico, and Carribean.

Yes I trhink the list is right. However, does the US get Quebec, too, or does it becomes a US dominion/satellite while Yankees gobble English Canada ? Also do they get all of Mexico or just the northern slice down to Mexico City ? And what does it exactly mean the Carribeans ? I would include Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Bahames, Jamaica. I'm rather more dubious about Haiti. That place was an economic hellhole since the rebellion of the slaves and teeming with impoverished blacks, why they would ever want it ? And when they would get the Caribbeans, too ?

Also does Northern Mexico get annexed in 1848-49 (the USA get more of an appetite at Gudalupe Hidalgo), or later in the Second Mexican-American war over Pancho Villa in 1912-16 ?

I also think that during the Civil War, Quebec should revolt (along with rest of Canada)

Should they get Canada before the Civil War (say in a war over Oregon), or later (say in a war over Riel's Rebellion) or even more late (up to 1896) ?

I can see Quebecois rebellin if they were annexed, but why English Canada ? Culturally they were very akin, after the initial shock of being wrested from the UK was over, they would be quickly assimilated, esp. since immigration would flood former Canada, too. And immigrants would be loyal to the Stars and Stripes, not Queen Vicky.

and in the South, The Carribeans (if taken early) should revolt ( think of CSA event for "Annextation of Carribeans" and if Cuba gains independence Spain intervenes, or if Carribeans didnt get taken then Mexico should declare war on CSA.

Well, if Caribbeans get taken before ACW, they might join CSA, sure, since they would have similar economies and culture to the South.

Also later in the game if USA becomes a huge giant, South America should declare war and join the Allies and USA the Axis.

I can see super-USA joining the Grossdeutschland-Italy-Hungary Triple Alliance, sure, esp. if the UK joins France and Russia, instead of staying neutral or siding with the CPs.

But why South America should ever do such a stupid thing ? They would just give an overly-imperialistic uber-USA the perfect excuse to rally under the flag again, crush them like bugs, and have another merry go round at annexation and/or puppeting. No coalition of South American states has a snowball's chance in Hell of resisting a USA that stretches from Alaska to Mexico City or Yucatan, plus Caribbeans. At most, this might tie up most of the USA army for years as they pacify South America.

 

[unmerged(92769)]

1. USA should get claims to ALL of the Carribeans. (remember Monroe Doctine? Think of it as "Annex all of America".) Also, Mexico should be annexed early on (all north of Mexico City) and USA should be given chances to declare war on Mexico, say "Mexican Agents Rally Sonorans to Revolt". This would be later, before the Second Mexican War, or if the player dosent choose this event, then during the Second Mexican War.

2. ALL of Canada would be annexed, and later USA will get a event to free Quebec (if refused huge revolts until Quebec founded, then event turns Quebec into US dominion) English Canada, of course, early in the game would not be so anti-USA. But even in real-life, English Canadians seem to have the same pride in Canada and love for the Mother Country that the Quebecois do. Of course immigrants would decrease Nationalism, but the same revolts would come. Also, if Quebec becomes a vassal, the "Quebec revolts" event during the Civil War should be Quebec declaring war on USA.

3. Yes, the would join.

4. You must look at it this way, South America having no chance of repelling the evil uber USA giant just about to destroy them, then poof! WWI happens and the Entente vs Central powers, both side equal. Then the Brazilians get event "Alliance against USA?" and SA all ally together (also ally with the Entente) and USA protests "USA intrest Threatened in SA" Brazil then gets a choice "Back down or Fight like men". Then SA would get a chance when USA gets a event "Conquered see Chance" (massive revolts) and SA gets "Patriotism against Tyrants" (manpower bonus and divisons added). Would you declare war on a nation that would kill you sooner or later when you had atleast a small chance of winning?


Edit 1: The USA would take all the crap holes in the Carribeans for many reasons. CSA would take Haiti to shovel out the free negros (zee event!) USA would do it in intrest of Monroe Destiny or the Manifest Destiny or the American Dream, whatever you want to call it in the up and coming new mod. Americans would have seen conquering the Carribeans as a way to free the people from sh** and poverty.

 

[unmerged(36449)]

As an Italian history buff, I have to disagree most heartily. Trieste is or ought to be an Italian core, its majority population always was Italian, there were a powerful Italian irredentist movement that claimed it, its German population was a tiny minority, German nationalism (as opposed to the dynastic Hapsburg state) had little interest in either Trento, Trieste or Dalmatia, if Austria-Hungary collapses as a result of German unification or a lost war, they should go to Italy (or Piedmont).



I see. Nice to know. Then to adjust German unification to my tastes it is necessary an event that annexes Austria to Germany if popular/conservative German unification happens (maybe better separate events for the conservative and popular unification paths) or Austria-Hungary loses the 1866 war (and gives Germany a massive badboy reduction to compensate), then another event that releases Hungary with Transylvania, Croatia (either independent or part of Hungary), and gives Italian provinces to Italy/Piedmont.

That would really depend upon the "flavor" of German nationalism...

One group didn't much care as they were more consumed by just getting the job done. And the other wanted to retain all or as much of the former territory of the first reich, and seeing as the HRE had claims to large portions of Istria... they would most definitely want to keep it. Same goes for Trento-aka Sudtirol.

That being said even the first group would have taken Sud-Tirol and Trieste if they could have gotten it without having to take Croatia and Hungary as both factions were looking to put together a second reich with as close to the borders of the first one as was practical to do.

Plus having a port that was not on the North Sea or Baltic has an appeal all it's own to business interests that would make their presence known in any set of negotiations that had that in play. The net result is that they would only give it up under pressure or a last resort, the populations of the area were inconsequential to their worldview.

 

[Irioth]

That would really depend upon the "flavor" of German nationalism...

One group didn't much care as they were more consumed by just getting the job done. And the other wanted to retain all or as much of the former territory of the first reich, and seeing as the HRE had claims to large portions of Istria... they would most definitely want to keep it. Same goes for Trento-aka Sudtirol.

Hmm, given that Greater German unification really requires some political savy and compromises to pull off in the first place, I'd reckon that reclaiming ALL of the old HRE possessions (i.e. Belgium, Netherlands, Northern Italy) and/or ALL of the Hapsburg Empire possession (including Croatia, Hungary, Istria, Transylvania, Galicia) goes in the field of the really unreasonable, unless time travelers show up and deliver you the blueprints for nuclear weapons or you suddenly develop the ability to shoot fireballs from your arse or somesuch... Grossdeutschland is the most that can be accomplished in the constraints of XIX century geopolitics.

The extremists may dream as long as they want, but they are not going to succeed. Only the pragmatists have a reasonable chance of success.

That being said even the first group would have taken Sud-Tirol and Trieste if they could have gotten it without having to take Croatia and Hungary as both factions were looking to put together a second reich with as close to the borders of the first one as was practical to do.

South Tirol they are going to take, but to take Trieste would require to go through Northern Italy, Croatia and Hungary as you point out, this would throw the ethnic balance of the new Reich way off balance, and would only reproduce the internecine strife that was the bane of HRE, old German Confederation and late Hapsburg empire. Not worth the effort.

Plus, even the reborn Reich is going to need some friends in Europe, Hungary and Italy are easy to win out if you give them the lands that are not really German to being with, why to make all of your neighbors your sworn enemies, since some of them will hate you anyway (i.e. France) ?

Plus having a port that was not on the North Sea or Baltic has an appeal all it's own to business interests that would make their presence known in any set of negotiations that had that in play. The net result is that they would only give it up under pressure or a last resort, the populations of the area were inconsequential to their worldview.

The need to have some friendly neighbors does qualify as pressure. If that port is going to belong to reliable allies, not having it in your borders is not so big a loss.