Modded Resources file

[unmerged(12283)]

Originally posted by State Machine
Yeah, but it is a bit big and not perfectly organized. The relevant tabs are:

* province.csv - the raw input from the game file.
* atlas - the geographical input to the html FAQ
* econ 1936 - the "major powers" are sorted and totals accumulated. But, the minors are in there at the end, but totals are not accumulated. I did that directly in the html files for 1.02 since there weren't many changes.
* econ 1936 (2) - the original minor power html creation source. But, it is not updated for 1.02.

Here is the link (it is about 1.3MB) --> xls file

Edit: When I have time, I plan to do 1939 and 1941 scenarios. I will then clean up the tabs.

thanks! got it....

now where did i leave my life...

 

[Aetius]

Tin

I started looking in to the tin part.
Tin is usually collected by dredges along rivers or mined from ancient river beds. Tungsten and Thanthalium (sp?) are usually found together with Tin (at least the mined ore)

UK		1.3
British Empire		11.2
Malaya		27.8
French Empire		1.1
Dutch E. Indies/Guyana		18
Greater Germany#		0.1
Japanese Empire@		1.4
China		5.7
Latin America		18

The numbers add up to 84.2% leaving 15.8% for the rest.

Uk production is from the Cornish tin mines.
British Empire (outside of Malaya) I suspect mostly consists of deposits in Burma, Africa and Australia (haven't checked them for proportions)
Malaya is eastern Malaya (HoI Ipoh and Kuala Lumpur)
Franch Empire haven't checked
The Dutch East Indies's deposits are in SE Sumatra off Bangka island.
Germany haven't checked
Japanese haven't checked
China's deposits are in Yunan
In Latin America I think the major producers were Brazil and Bolivia, with the lionshare being Bolivian.
1.3+27.8+18+5.7+18=58% of world wide production accounted for (approximately)

Thailand had signinficant production in the Malaya border areas. So they are the likely biggest part of 15.8% difference.

The following are as yet unknown
British Empire 11.2
French Empire 1.1
Greater Germany# 0.1
Japanese Empire@ 1.4

Note:
I have read that Malaya accounted for approx. 50% of global production at this time so I am a bit dubious about the Sturmvogel numbers.

 

[unmerged(12283)]

Re: Tin

Originally posted by Aetius
I started looking in to the tin part.
Tin is usually collected by dredges along rivers or mined from ancient river beds. Tungsten and Thanthalium (sp?) are usually found together with Tin (at least the mined ore)

Note:
I have read that Malaya accounted for approx. 50% of global production at this time so I am a bit dubious about the Sturmvogel numbers.

Looking into it abit and checked against the number in the usgs...

commodity - usprod / world prod

iron - 18.9 M / 74.4 M
Manganese - 89 k / 1.8 M
Copper - 534 k / 1.5 M
Lead - 308 k /1.38 M
Zinc - 382 k / 1.21 M
Tin - nodata / 137 k
tungsten - no data

Us started secondary(scrap) production of tin in 1939 with 15k....The first primary production is showing in like 43 with 4 k or something...

I think we're on the right track with these as you can see the US ramp up production on alot of them as the war starts. Which is somewhat disconcerting if you think of it....normally it takes time to develop a mine and start production - in the us, it appears the presence of minerals were known, but not exploited - and in a short period of time, some outputs were doubled or more. The us production of iron in 1935 was 18.9 M t, with another 19.2 M t from scrap. In 1941, this was upped to 50 Mt/ 50.1 Mt, while the world production went from 74.4 Mt to 110 Mt....how does the game model that?

 

[Aetius]

Re: Re: Tin

Originally posted by Sharpei_Diem
I think we're on the right track with these as you can see the US ramp up production on alot of them as the war starts. Which is somewhat disconcerting if you think of it....normally it takes time to develop a mine and start production - in the us, it appears the presence of minerals were known, but not exploited - and in a short period of time, some outputs were doubled or more. The us production of iron in 1935 was 18.9 M t, with another 19.2 M t from scrap. In 1941, this was upped to 50 Mt/ 50.1 Mt, while the world production went from 74.4 Mt to 110 Mt....how does the game model that?

It can't model production increases of resources. Well you could but you have to do it the opposite way, i.e. by decreasing consumption. I put together a lot alternate techs, especially industrial, that sort of modeled improvements of industrial processes like continuous casting furnances, viscuosity breakers, advances in industrial catalysts and so on, by reducing oil or supply consumption.
The best thing is to set a particular value, e.g. the average value between 1936-1941 or like, which is easier said than done since you need to have the global values between these years to be able to work out the averages. So in the US case the Iron production went from 25% of world production to 45% so the US can be given 35% of world production, which as I said should be "normalised" by the global IC production, so if global IC is 3000 the US should have 1050 Iron (well not any longer if you include the other metals but you understand the heuristics I hope)

Re Tin.
I know the Soviet Union had substantial deposits close to Novosibirsk and in Kyrgyzistan. I suppose the "recycled" resources could be ignored since that would make all major metal importers metal producers as well, thus destroying much of the point of the resources. On the other hand having the recycled resources in would allow continued production, so it might be a good idea from a realism point of view. But it doesn't make collecting data much easier...

 

[unmerged(12283)]

Re: Re: Re: Tin

Originally posted by Aetius
It can't model production increases of resources. Well you could but you have to do it the opposite way, i.e. by decreasing consumption. I put together a lot alternate techs, especially industrial, that sort of modeled improvements of industrial processes like continuous casting furnances, viscuosity breakers, advances in industrial catalysts and so on, by reducing oil or supply consumption.
The best thing is to set a particular value, e.g. the average value between 1936-1941 or like, which is easier said than done since you need to have the global values between these years to be able to work out the averages. So in the US case the Iron production went from 25% of world production to 45% so the US can be given 35% of world production, which as I said should be "normalised" by the global IC production, so if global IC is 3000 the US should have 1050 Iron (well not any longer if you include the other metals but you understand the heuristics I hope)

Re Tin.
I know the Soviet Union had substantial deposits close to Novosibirsk and in Kyrgyzistan. I suppose the "recycled" resources could be ignored since that would make all major metal importers metal producers as well, thus destroying much of the point of the resources. On the other hand having the recycled resources in would allow continued production, so it might be a good idea from a realism point of view. But it doesn't make collecting data much easier...

You weren't kidding about getting those numbers....It's been a pain trying to get anything reasonable for the time frame, yet alone something good...I thought i had a brainstorm, and decided to check out the local library; details of which i won't get into here, but in sumation, it wasn't the positive experience I was hoping for. I'm going to try to swing by a university near by when its libraries open up again and hopefully find something concrete.

On another matter though I took all those values and got them into an xls file. I added formulas to determine and automate optimum ic calculations (as well as %s and surplus resources) so it's easy to change the values and see the ramifications....let me know if you want it....

 

[Aetius]

Finding values

Originally posted by Sharpei_Diem
You weren't kidding about getting those numbers....It's been a pain trying to get anything reasonable for the time frame, yet alone something good...I thought i had a brainstorm, and decided to check out the local library; details of which i won't get into here, but in sumation, it wasn't the positive experience I was hoping for. I'm going to try to swing by a university near by when its libraries open up again and hopefully find something concrete.

Now what I did originally was try and find the numbers, which is very difficult.
What I did in the end as a second method was to get comparison numbers, e.g. Thai rubber production as proportion of Malay production. Then you set the production as a proportion of the No. 1 Production area, which is not tricky to find.
Example (not real numbers) The US Oil production was the no. 1 oil producer (at 60% of global ) so all numbers were given as proportion of the US production. Then you normalize the values according to global IC. So if global IC is 1000 the US should get 600 allocated (this is easier with the other resources)
Then you put these in a table and so perhaps you give Venezuela at 20% of US and so on. The numbers add up to 900. Then you start adding the areas with uncertain values to fill out the remaining 100. Usually this isn't particularly difficult since the upper limit of the "unsure" areas is usually less than the production of known areas. For example if you know that the four major oil producers in South America were, ordered by production volume: Venezuela, Mexico, Colombia and Argentina. Bolivian production cannot be larger then the Argentine production. Colombian production must be smaller than Mexican and larger than Argentine. Usually this results in quite decent numbers.


For numbers try finding old Encylopedia Britannica entries or the League of Nations economic survey, I think there was one done in the 1930's. At least I remember seeing a lot of references to it when trying to find info on the Balkans. It should be possible to find.
Otherwise I suggest looking for the organisations dealing with these metals, there is usually some cartel in each industry.

 

[Generalisimo]

That could be countered by giving no real reason to invade in the first place. If you look at alot of the territory in the game, there's simply no reason to hold it. an example, the desert in north africa. Yes it's nice if it's my colour, but holding it gains me absolutely nothing. So, in the game(and IRL), countries should avoid taking places with no real value.

To illustrate what occurs now(why's are listed in order of importance to my war effort):

if i'm playing italy, almost immediately i send troops to seize albania: why? coal, iron, oil, IC boost

After consolidation of ethiopia/albania I quickly send troops to greece: why? IC, iron, coal

then, Venezuala: oil, IC, coal, iron

after that, as far as natural resources go, i'm set and i start looking for high IC provinces/countries to supply my future war effort in europe.

there should be 4 reasons to invade/protect a province country:
Victory points, IC, resources, strategic position(supply line, choke hold, port etc). Right now the minors are swimming in IC/resources and so unhistorical events occur because they are to the player's advantage. The island of santo domingo/haiti gives 10 + IC, coal and iron. In comparison, this one caribbean island has the same resource/industrial capabilities as most industrialized provinces. If it wasn't worth VP(which it shouldnt be), had 1-2 IC, little iron/coal...I wouldn't be troubled to take it.

The other side that will hopefully be corrected is to make the majors concerned if a country takes a province that is high in one of those 4 areas. An italian invasion of venezuala, should at the very least provoke severe international concern, if not outright war..

anyways, just my thoughts....

well, so, what i see is that the problem is not Venezuela having a lot of resources, is that the AI doesn't react against a warmongering player.
If you are Argentina and invade Venezuela for their resources, all the allies will declare war against GERMANY!!!!
THAT'S THE PROBLEM, not the resources in Venezuela or Albania.
The AI must be tweaked to react against the warmongering players, so, this things will not repeat in every game.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Aetius
Well you have 2 choices
You could bump up all the majors. You set the "bottom" level at the current minor level and then increase the Majors. It would require some adjustment of R&D costs to prevent ahistoric fast development. But it would make everyone playable.

Or you cut the minors down to size. Each minor needs 1IC at least for consumer goods. Most minors didn't have 15 000 men under arms and could probably not support them anyway even if they wanted to. So the bottom level is clearly 1 IC. The resources should then be set accordingly. I would start with singling out the 1 IC's first. Haiti, Dominican Republic, Bhutan, Nepal suggest themselves immediately, but I don't know much about the rest. Then I would get the minor countries that fought wars during or close to the game time, e.g. Bolivia, Paraguay, Ecuador, Peru, Thailand and Ethiopia apart from the really obvious ones in Europe. These have to be given ICs at a level that will allow them to fight these wars. The rest of the minors should be compared to these minors to get roughly the right numbers.
Now what is really important is that the "sum" of these minors should then be compared to the majors. Obviously if the sum of the minors is around the level the USSR, the numbers are way too high, maybe they should be the level of France but I honestly don't know.

Well i do not know if you consider Brazil and Argentina minors or not, but be carefull with them, cutting down their resources could leave to a total fantasy thing.
Brazil, is huge and have a lot of resources and men to form a great army.
Argentina, have modernized their military industry just before the war with German equipment, and bought the service of a lot of german scientist to develop new weapons. This services, of course stopped when the war began to hit Germany. Also, Argentina discused a lot of times to enter in the axis side, but lack of determination stoped that decision, so if you cut Argentina a lot, this will not be posible.

maybe i am talking nonsense because you don't consider them minors, but who knows....

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
Well i do not know if you consider Brazil and Argentina minors or not, but be carefull with them, cutting down their resources could leave to a total fantasy thing.
Brazil, is huge and have a lot of resources and men to form a great army.
Argentina, have modernized their military industry just before the war with German equipment, and bought the service of a lot of german scientist to develop new weapons. This services, of course stopped when the war began to hit Germany. Also, Argentina discused a lot of times to enter in the axis side, but lack of determination stoped that decision, so if you cut Argentina a lot, this will not be posible.

maybe i am talking nonsense because you don't consider them minors, but who knows....

I know the Argentines were quite high tech (they produced a turbojet fighter shortly after the war). Main problem is the small minors like Cuba and Guatemala. If you have any information on steel in Brazil and Argentina (or any other "minor") I would be interested..