Thanks for taking my suggestions into account
Given your portrait work, and espeically how the MedFace pack is, after your tweaking, more appropriate for arabic characters, do you ever intend to tweak the MedFace pack for, well, mediterranean faces?
[MOD] Vanilla Immersion, Events, and Traits - A Modular Flavor and Tweak Mod
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Thanks for taking my suggestions into account
Given your portrait work, and espeically how the MedFace pack is, after your tweaking, more appropriate for arabic characters, do you ever intend to tweak the MedFace pack for, well, mediterranean faces?
Thanks for taking my suggestions into account
Given your portrait work, and espeically how the MedFace pack is, after your tweaking, more appropriate for arabic characters, do you ever intend to tweak the MedFace pack for, well, mediterranean faces?
Not really, I'm fine keeping them as they are, although I have integrated this awesome mod here - though just the improvements to the female faces, I'll get to the male faces for the next version. So at least the Mediteranean portraits look interesting now, and dare I say even more realistic (ignoring the skin tone/what does a real Italian look like debate which I don't feel like getting into unless if it causes the VIET thread to explode with 100s of posts (like the med portrait threads), which is fine, then, becausei t'll attract more attention to VIET
).
Not really, I'm fine keeping them as they are, although I have integrated this awesome mod here - though just the improvements to the female faces, I'll get to the male faces for the next version. So at least the Mediteranean portraits look interesting now, and dare I say even more realistic (ignoring the skin tone/what does a real Italian look like debate which I don't feel like getting into unless if it causes the VIET thread to explode with 100s of posts (like the med portrait threads), which is fine, then, becausei t'll attract more attention to VIET
God, that is loads better! You're a champ if you get the male faces update included in the mod!
I'd like to report a small bug, the decision "hold a sacrifice" for pagans gives a monthly bonus of +0.00 piety, according to the modifier description
Also, how would i go about adding a fertility penalty of -20% to the old age modifier?
I've already added the line fertility = -0.20 to the modifiers in Viet Immersion snd Viet Traits, but it still isn't showing up in-game? Seems logical enough for an old fella to get a bit infertile to me
Also, how would i go about adding a fertility penalty of -20% to the old age modifier?
I've already added the line fertility = -0.20 to the modifiers in Viet Immersion snd Viet Traits, but it still isn't showing up in-game? Seems logical enough for an old fella to get a bit infertile to me
Don't praise me, praise GeorgAfLöfbacka for making it in the first place!
I'd like to report a small bug, the decision "hold a sacrifice" for pagans gives a monthly bonus of +0.00 piety, according to the modifier description
Thanks for reporting that. I've set the bonus to +0.005 piety but apparently that's too small for the game to process, so I'll just change it to 0.01 piety (shouldn't really make much of a difference anyways).
Also, how would i go about adding a fertility penalty of -20% to the old age modifier?
I've already added the line fertility = -0.20 to the modifiers in Viet Immersion snd Viet Traits, but it still isn't showing up in-game? Seems logical enough for an old fella to get a bit infertile to me
Did you change the modifiers in VIET Events as well? It's also there in the same place. (In case you're wondering why I've put all the modifiers into the same file for my convenience so I don't have to mix things up for different modules, if that makes sense)
And yeah I guess I should add in a fertility modifier. Old folks can have kids, sure, but definitely they'll be a bit less... um... active in trying.
Don't praise me, praise GeorgAfLöfbacka for making it in the first place!
Thanks for reporting that. I've set the bonus to +0.005 piety but apparently that's too small for the game to process, so I'll just change it to 0.01 piety (shouldn't really make much of a difference anyways).
Did you change the modifiers in VIET Events as well? It's also there in the same place. (In case you're wondering why I've put all the modifiers into the same file for my convenience so I don't have to mix things up for different modules, if that makes sense)
And yeah I guess I should add in a fertility modifier. Old folks can have kids, sure, but definitely they'll be a bit less... um... active in trying.
Whoops, forgot that module, now the infertility is showing up.
Also, I found out that the PatrumScuta 0.5 1.091 hotfix works with V.I.E.T, pleasant surprise
It's hard to go back to vanilla COA'S after playing Patrum Scuta lol.
Whoops, forgot that module, now the infertility is showing up.
Also, I found out that the PatrumScuta 0.5 1.091 hotfix works with V.I.E.T, pleasant surprise
On PS as a small warning there's a possibility it *might* cause crashes and/or weird bugs - in older versions of PS and VIET (from about a month ago or a little further) some users reported issues when using PS and VIET, but others didn't.
Hopefully you won't come across that, but I thought iI'd just tell you just in case.
I have a number of critiques and questions. Mostly about Traits. Please do not take offense. I am honestly curious. I like most of your changes, but some of them bother me.
I thought early middle ages Christian religious leaders often had their own castles, levied taxes, and maintained military forces. I have read a number of texts in which it was expected that a Bishop would serve his nominal liege in times of war without making exception for Martial duties. What is the rationale that Bishops cannot be Marshals?
Why can Holy Wars only target counties and not duchies? I would have thought Holy Wars could target kingdoms or anything smaller given the nominal objective of reclaiming the Holy Land and rebuilding the Kingdom of Jerusalem.
You said Orthodox Christians can only declare war on Pagans. Did you mean Holy War?
Why can Muslims not declare Holy Wars against eastern branches of Christianity? Historically, Mehmed Osman II justified his drive to conquer Constantinople by stating that being a ghazi was a basic duty equivalent in importance to jihad. He even made it part of his title after succeeding in conquering Constantinople. In this sense, ghazi was an honorific title you gained for fighting on behalf of Islam in order to spread Islam. It was a major factor in the spread of Islam throughout the territory conquered by Mehmed Osman II.
Why does Arbitrary gain +2 Intrigue? I would assume Arbitrary would make someone more Random.
Why does Brave gain -2 Intrigue? What does being Brave have to do with Intrigue? I would assume Brave would make someone more likely to take the Center or Pursue in combat.
Why does Celibate gain +2 Learning? Someone who is Celibate could engage in almost any other activity more often, whether leading to Learning or otherwise.
Why does Content gain +5 Vassal Opinion? If I were a vassal, and my liege was Content, I would be annoyed as it would impede my ability to ascend the ranks of nobility. I would need to work around my liege as I could be certain he or she would never ascend any higher except by luck or circumstance. They would be a barrier to my progression.
Why does Craven gain +1 Diplomacy? I would assume that if you are a coward you are more likely to bend under pressure, whether martial or social. You would probably negotiate very poorly and cave to demands. The same question applies for gaining +1 Intrigue. You would break under pressure and admit to anything or reveal all of your secrets more easily were you Craven.
Why does Duelist gain -1% Defense? Dueling requires both offense and defense in equal measure.
Why does Drunkard gain +3% Damage? A Drunkard would presumably be ineffective and cause further losses or make hasty and irrational decisions.
Why does Envious gain +1% Damage? I would assume someone who is jealous would take greater chances. While this may result in +1% Damage, it would also probably result in an equal chance of something going wrong.
Why does Gardener gain +1 Intrigue? I do not see the rationale.
Why does Gluttonous gain +0.5 Health? If you enjoy eating and eat too much then you are probably in poor physical condition and your Health probably suffers. I would imagine that Gluttonous grants negative Health.
Why would a Hedonist gain +2 Intrigue? Hedonisim is pleasure for the sake of pleasure. I do not see the rationale.
Why does Slothful gain +10% Fertility? If you are lazy, I assume it also applies in bed. I have friends who unfortunately fall into this category. There were running jokes about their ability to reproduce.
Why does Temperate gain -5% Tax? If you are temperate you do not indulge to excess. You are probably better with your money because you do not drink too much, eat too much, smoke too much, etc. You keep your hobbies and vices in check. I would assume Temperate would increase Tax.
Why does Trusting gain +1% Retreat? I do not see the rationale.
Why does Ugly gain +3% Morale Offense? I would assume that inspiring soldiers to charge the enemy requires presence and charisma. If you lack these, in part because you are Ugly, how does this work? I would assume the opposite, that Ugly impairs Morale Offense and Morale Defense.
Tall grants +5 Opposite Sex Opinion. This would generally only work were you male. The same point stands for Powerful Voice. I think it is dangerous to make congenital Traits that are gender dependent.
I thought early middle ages Christian religious leaders often had their own castles, levied taxes, and maintained military forces. I have read a number of texts in which it was expected that a Bishop would serve his nominal liege in times of war without making exception for Martial duties. What is the rationale that Bishops cannot be Marshals?
Why can Holy Wars only target counties and not duchies? I would have thought Holy Wars could target kingdoms or anything smaller given the nominal objective of reclaiming the Holy Land and rebuilding the Kingdom of Jerusalem.
You said Orthodox Christians can only declare war on Pagans. Did you mean Holy War?
Why can Muslims not declare Holy Wars against eastern branches of Christianity? Historically, Mehmed Osman II justified his drive to conquer Constantinople by stating that being a ghazi was a basic duty equivalent in importance to jihad. He even made it part of his title after succeeding in conquering Constantinople. In this sense, ghazi was an honorific title you gained for fighting on behalf of Islam in order to spread Islam. It was a major factor in the spread of Islam throughout the territory conquered by Mehmed Osman II.
Why does Arbitrary gain +2 Intrigue? I would assume Arbitrary would make someone more Random.
Why does Brave gain -2 Intrigue? What does being Brave have to do with Intrigue? I would assume Brave would make someone more likely to take the Center or Pursue in combat.
Why does Celibate gain +2 Learning? Someone who is Celibate could engage in almost any other activity more often, whether leading to Learning or otherwise.
Why does Content gain +5 Vassal Opinion? If I were a vassal, and my liege was Content, I would be annoyed as it would impede my ability to ascend the ranks of nobility. I would need to work around my liege as I could be certain he or she would never ascend any higher except by luck or circumstance. They would be a barrier to my progression.
Why does Craven gain +1 Diplomacy? I would assume that if you are a coward you are more likely to bend under pressure, whether martial or social. You would probably negotiate very poorly and cave to demands. The same question applies for gaining +1 Intrigue. You would break under pressure and admit to anything or reveal all of your secrets more easily were you Craven.
Why does Duelist gain -1% Defense? Dueling requires both offense and defense in equal measure.
Why does Drunkard gain +3% Damage? A Drunkard would presumably be ineffective and cause further losses or make hasty and irrational decisions.
Why does Envious gain +1% Damage? I would assume someone who is jealous would take greater chances. While this may result in +1% Damage, it would also probably result in an equal chance of something going wrong.
Why does Gardener gain +1 Intrigue? I do not see the rationale.
Why does Gluttonous gain +0.5 Health? If you enjoy eating and eat too much then you are probably in poor physical condition and your Health probably suffers. I would imagine that Gluttonous grants negative Health.
Why would a Hedonist gain +2 Intrigue? Hedonisim is pleasure for the sake of pleasure. I do not see the rationale.
Why does Slothful gain +10% Fertility? If you are lazy, I assume it also applies in bed. I have friends who unfortunately fall into this category. There were running jokes about their ability to reproduce.
Why does Temperate gain -5% Tax? If you are temperate you do not indulge to excess. You are probably better with your money because you do not drink too much, eat too much, smoke too much, etc. You keep your hobbies and vices in check. I would assume Temperate would increase Tax.
Why does Trusting gain +1% Retreat? I do not see the rationale.
Why does Ugly gain +3% Morale Offense? I would assume that inspiring soldiers to charge the enemy requires presence and charisma. If you lack these, in part because you are Ugly, how does this work? I would assume the opposite, that Ugly impairs Morale Offense and Morale Defense.
Tall grants +5 Opposite Sex Opinion. This would generally only work were you male. The same point stands for Powerful Voice. I think it is dangerous to make congenital Traits that are gender dependent.
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One trait critique/question I have:
Why do sayyid and mirza give bonuses? Non-muslims really don't care who claims to be a descendant of some heathen warlord...
Why do sayyid and mirza give bonuses? Non-muslims really don't care who claims to be a descendant of some heathen warlord...
That is a lot of Why's! I actually got tired reading it, haha. Your questions/critiques do have a point, though. Also, an added point to jordarkelf's question, Sayyids and Mirzas aren't valued much by Sunnis if I recall correctly (at least in modern times), it's mainly a Shia thing (Mirza is a Persian term meaning prince, and means nought in Arabic and I've never seen it being used in the same context of the game's before).
Not fully as I understand it. Sayyids definitely are respected by Sunnis, all the muslim monarchs claim to be one (Marocco, Jordan, etc..). It's mainly the Salafists of Saudi-Arabia and thus the modern day "terrorist" that no longer cares.
However with sunnis, there should be no requirement for the Caliph to be a Sayyid, that is a point where they differ.
However with sunnis, there should be no requirement for the Caliph to be a Sayyid, that is a point where they differ.
@Panagel: Thank you for the very detailed critique. I'll type up my reasoning for most of them (I don't remember all of them, amusingly enough - some of these date back to when I was using them in my personal mod way back with 1.06) later as I don't have time to respond to them all right now; I really do appreciate it though, as it does make me rethink some of them. I will say now that for some of them the reasons are balance, so that the previously negative traits would have some bonus in contrast to the previously positive traits which now have maluses - note that of course I've tried to make sure these "balance" tweaks are somewhat justifiable, as I will get to when I type up my full arguments later today.
EDIT: By balance I mean that all traits generally have bonuses and maluses. This makes it easier for players to roleplay, so you aren't pidgeonholed into getting the "good" traits because other traits don't have bonuses. I'll explain more so in my detailed response later.
@jordarkelf: I just thought the small prestige bonus was to abstractly represent the prestige gained from declaring you're related to such an important and well-known figure. I also added it because I have OCD about traits that do not give any bonuses or maluses whatsoever, so I added in the small prestige boost as that was the one that made the most sense to me. I dunno, do you maybe have a better suggestion? Because again I really, really hate having traits that don't have immediate, visible bonuses and maluses.
EDIT: By balance I mean that all traits generally have bonuses and maluses. This makes it easier for players to roleplay, so you aren't pidgeonholed into getting the "good" traits because other traits don't have bonuses. I'll explain more so in my detailed response later.
@jordarkelf: I just thought the small prestige bonus was to abstractly represent the prestige gained from declaring you're related to such an important and well-known figure. I also added it because I have OCD about traits that do not give any bonuses or maluses whatsoever, so I added in the small prestige boost as that was the one that made the most sense to me. I dunno, do you maybe have a better suggestion? Because again I really, really hate having traits that don't have immediate, visible bonuses and maluses.
I agree about Mirza. It is a temporal rather than religious title. I do not think being a descendant of a particular ruling dynasty should grant a noble any more or less Prestige, Morale Offense, or Morale Defense than any other noble.
I disagree about Sayyid. It is a religious rather than temporal title. It is highly respected to be descended from the family of the Prophet. The term is Ahl al-Bayt. Every Muslim has an obligation to love the Ahl al-Bayt. The Prestige, Morale Offense, and Morale Defense gains make sense. Though, granted, it may have lost its effect over time as pretty much everyone claims to be Sayyid these days.
The Morale Offense and Morale Defense apply to the soldiers led by the noble with Sayyid, not to their enemies.
I disagree about Sayyid. It is a religious rather than temporal title. It is highly respected to be descended from the family of the Prophet. The term is Ahl al-Bayt. Every Muslim has an obligation to love the Ahl al-Bayt. The Prestige, Morale Offense, and Morale Defense gains make sense. Though, granted, it may have lost its effect over time as pretty much everyone claims to be Sayyid these days.
The Morale Offense and Morale Defense apply to the soldiers led by the noble with Sayyid, not to their enemies.
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Speaking from experience, other than to Morocco's and Jordan's own royal families, it's of not much of importance (I'm currently in Jordan), heck almost everyone and their cousin claims that they're descendants of Muhammad
. With regards to Jordan's Hashemite family, their original claim to legitimacy was that Hashemites have always been the rulers of Hijaz since forever (thus I find it odd that they're extinct ingame) so they should be the rightful rulers of the Arab nation (Sharif Hussein even claimed the Caliphate) and not some Turkish bloke in Istanbul, but Sayyid means nought outside of that, what with them being deposed in Syria and Iraq, and it not considered a legitimising factor in Jordan. Morocco's justification, I'm not too sure... but I think it's got to do with the royal family and the western Caliphate or something. Don't quote me on that.Anyways, I'm speaking from a modern perspective, but seeing as Sunnism doesn't place theological importance to Muhammad's lineage, I doubt it was much different back then (indeed, they say that Muhammad's sons died early as to not cause this sort of thing). But again, this is all from my personal perspective.
Some of your changes, for example:
How does this actually work? For example, if the AI is controlling the relevant characters, then do the laws change automatically at these succession points? On the other hand, if you control the relevant characters, then do you still exercise full control over these law changes? Or, what happens if Henry Plantagenet II never becomes King of England?
How does this actually work? For example, if the AI is controlling the relevant characters, then do the laws change automatically at these succession points? On the other hand, if you control the relevant characters, then do you still exercise full control over these law changes? Or, what happens if Henry Plantagenet II never becomes King of England?
Ahl al-Bayt is of importance to Shiite theology, but in orthodox Sunni terms, it refers to Muhammad and his direct family only.
EDIT: I'd understand a minor increase in prestige maybe, but moral offence and defence not so much.
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Addressing religion, particularly heresy.
The Third Ecumenical Council in 431 affirmed the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Theotokos and condemned Nestorianism as heresy for instead using Christotokos. This led to the Nestorian Schism. Followers of Nestorianism then separated from Othodoxy.
I would also argue that Monophysitism is a heresy of Orthodoxy, not Miaphysitism. The Fourth Ecumenical Council in 451 affirmed dyophysitism and condemned Monophysitism as heresy for rejecting dyophysitism. Miaphysitism was an offshoot of Monophysitism that was more moderate and that did not reject dyophysitism.
The Third Ecumenical Council in 431 affirmed the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Theotokos and condemned Nestorianism as heresy for instead using Christotokos. This led to the Nestorian Schism. Followers of Nestorianism then separated from Othodoxy.
I would also argue that Monophysitism is a heresy of Orthodoxy, not Miaphysitism. The Fourth Ecumenical Council in 451 affirmed dyophysitism and condemned Monophysitism as heresy for rejecting dyophysitism. Miaphysitism was an offshoot of Monophysitism that was more moderate and that did not reject dyophysitism.
Hmm. Currently still not sure what to do with the Mirza/Sayyid thing. Maybe remove the Mirza traits (the current Muslim opinion thing is more than enough) and keep the current Sayyid bonuses, but I'll let you guys argue/rant/comment more if you have anything else that might further change my opinion.
This means if you start at a startdate after William I comes to power but before Henry II (so for instance you start in 1074, or 1104), England will have Gavelkind. If you start before William I (like you start at a start date when Harold Godwinson is in power), then England is Feudal Elective. And so forth. It won't affect what happens afterwards, it's just the situation at the very beginning of the game depending on what the start date is.
Also I'll probably get a detailed response to your other concerns about the traits in a few hours. Don't have time to type them fully right now, but I do want to add another point I forgot to make in my previous post - I think the problem about some of these traits, similarly to cultures, is that they are not 100% well-defined even with the descriptions given in-game, so there's plenty of leeway for interpretation on exactly what they mean (as I've realized when discussing traits with other people in this thread). So ultimately if you don't' like some of my changes feel free to change it in your local copy, as it's not too difficult to do (just add in a few couple words of code and all), and I am more than happy to help show you how if you're unsure - I think it's important that players are able to customize the mods to their liking if they don't necessarily agree with all its changes.
Anyhow thanks all for the good discussion so far. Not only does it raise the post count in this thread (yes, my ego feels great) but I'm quite flattered by the attention and feedback or what not.
EDIT: Also I'll get to what you're talking about the eastern Christians later, just saw that, I'll have to think through that one too for my response (you do raise a good point).
This means if you start at a startdate after William I comes to power but before Henry II (so for instance you start in 1074, or 1104), England will have Gavelkind. If you start before William I (like you start at a start date when Harold Godwinson is in power), then England is Feudal Elective. And so forth. It won't affect what happens afterwards, it's just the situation at the very beginning of the game depending on what the start date is.
Also I'll probably get a detailed response to your other concerns about the traits in a few hours. Don't have time to type them fully right now, but I do want to add another point I forgot to make in my previous post - I think the problem about some of these traits, similarly to cultures, is that they are not 100% well-defined even with the descriptions given in-game, so there's plenty of leeway for interpretation on exactly what they mean (as I've realized when discussing traits with other people in this thread). So ultimately if you don't' like some of my changes feel free to change it in your local copy, as it's not too difficult to do (just add in a few couple words of code and all), and I am more than happy to help show you how if you're unsure - I think it's important that players are able to customize the mods to their liking if they don't necessarily agree with all its changes.
Anyhow thanks all for the good discussion so far. Not only does it raise the post count in this thread (yes, my ego feels great
) but I'm quite flattered by the attention and feedback or what not. EDIT: Also I'll get to what you're talking about the eastern Christians later, just saw that, I'll have to think through that one too for my response (you do raise a good point).
To clarify my own point, if possible, I would leave it so that Muslims cannot declare Holy Wars against Nestorianism. This goes back to early Muslims living in exile in the Kingdom of Aksum when it was following Nestorianism.
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