Thank you, I appreciate the help and the insight. Looking forward to the future developments of this lovely mod!
[MOD] Tianxia: Silk Road Expansion
- Thread starter LumberKing
- Start date
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Are there any events implemented that have to do with the fall of Tang, five dynasties period and rise of Song?
Like, can I re-enact the historical events during those times?
Like, can I re-enact the historical events during those times?
There is no such railroading, there are no plans to add such railroading, and since that whole series of events was quite complex, involved a lot of people (some of which were born fairly late or died fairly early), and took well over half a century regardless of what you consider the beginning and the end it would be a mess to try to add it.
However, there's a Mandate of Heaven mechanic that can cause interesting times for Chinese Imperial realms-- widespread uprisings (in the form of liberation-style revolts with a few tweaks such as giving successful revolters CBs they can use to expand in China and not requiring that the kingdom had a previous holder for the revolt to be possible in the first place), vassals seeking independence or power (and no longer being blocked from factioning for those things with council seats), the crumbling of central authority (in gameplay terms, the loss of the ability to hand out viceroyalties, no longer being able to block vassal wars without calling for Realm Peace, no longer being able to block external inheritance, and no longer being able to revoke titles), foreign realms becoming more reluctant to send tributes/become tributaries/stay tributaries, and the like -- if the emperor is considered unsuitable (e.g. is a Cannibal, is a known Devil Worshipper, or is an Imbecile), if the realm isn't healthy (e.g. there's widespread Depopulation), or if other bad things have happened (e.g. if wars have been lost recently or if the realm is a tributary), which should occasionally result in dynasties collapsing (particularly since losing land, having direct duke+ non-viceroyalty vassals, and the like makes it look more and more like you've lost the Mandate and things thus can spiral out of control), and if that has happened it is possible that someone else can attempt to re-consolidate and eventually recreate China.
Looking at the historical setup, the pre-IC starts -- currently unsupported, but they'll be supported in the next version -- will have Tang somewhat fractured (e.g. the Three Fanzhen of Hebei (and certain other jiedushi in 769) will be independent), so if they don't re-consolidate their Mandate (starting at Average in both starts) could suffer and they could collapse as a result (particularly if they get a poor ruler). The Iron Century start -- also not yet supported -- is in the middle of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period, and Zhao Kuangyin (Taizu of Song) is alive at the time (he's nine years old) and his father is playable (he's been given a single county), so you could certainly try to establish the historical Song dynasty from that start, though reuniting China as one of the starting pretenders (or Xu Zhigao/Li Bian, who still is a "loyal" subject of Wu at the start) or even one of the stronger non-pretender realms will likely be much easier since they're in a better starting position and (with the exception of Xu Zhigao) don't have lieges that can cause trouble by e.g. revoking any duchies they obtain.
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Zhao take Late Zhou's throne by court coup.That is hard happened in CK2
Well, yes, it won't be possible to take over in exact same fashion (not even if we ignore all the events that led to that point, e.g. Liao conquering Later Jin), given that there's no mechanic for court coups in vanilla and no plans to add such mechanics (it would be weird not to have them in e.g. the ERE as well (which we're not messing with because we don't mess with vanilla except in the form of fixing bugs or improving stuff related to our focus) and they have the potential to be massively unfun for the player even compared to a lot of other stuff like getting randomly killed or losing your throne due to a civil war (and having the player play by other rules is not great (and no, game ruling it is not the answer here))), but it will not be impossible to take over the relevant pretender empire (it is somewhat unlikely that it actually will be a realm named "[Later] Zhou", seeing as no such realm exists in the IC start) -- or go independent and consolidate that way -- and get in a position to create China using other mechanics, even if it certainly won't be easy as your starting position is unenviable.
Seeing as a good number of other historical events can't happen in a similar fashion (not even if we don't care about all the events up to the "main" event happening historically) in CK2 (or Tianxia, or plenty of other mods) due to other mechanics either not existing or being implemented in a way that makes it impossible for what happened historically to happen, I don't really think it is a problem that the historical overthrow of Emperor Gong (who isn't born in the IC start) of Later Zhou (which doesn't exist in the IC start) by Zhao Kuangyin (who might not rise to prominence in a certain timeline, who isn't playable right off the bat in the IC start, and whose father -- to the best of my knowledge -- actually didn't hold any land in the IC start and thus technically shouldn't be playable if we want full accuracy (in this case we're intentionally disregarding accuracy in the name of fun)) can't happen in quite the same fashion.
Zhao Hongyin indeed didn't hold any landed titles, but his father Zhao Jing was a prefect of Yingzhou (営州), Jizhou (蓟州) and Zhuozhou (涿州) at some point. Those prefecture were all under the jurisdiction of Lulong. It is not known exactly when he held these titles, but considering the age of his son it wouldn't be unthinkable to be during Later Tang times. As I'm not aware of any prefects in 936 in Zhuozhou, I decided to make Jing hold this title. So, if you don't want to sacrifice accuracy, you can make Hongyin a courtier at Later Tang (as he was then a military officer there) and add his father in Zhuozhou like I did.
Zhao Jing lived 872-933 according to Wikipedia, so it does not look like he'd be around in any playable start date unless that information is incorrect. He might still get added in the relevant province (or provinces; I'll have to check the map) at some point between dates as it is nice to be able to find interesting past holders if you go looking, but it looks like we have to land his son to make the Zhao family playable, and we'll probably have him a bit further south than Zhuozhou (he's currently holding c_cangzhou in the IC start) so that he remains under Later Tang (or Later Jin, assuming the starting ends with a Jin victory) even if the Sixteen Prefectures are handed over to Liao since that seems preferable (he'd obviously have been under Liao for a while after they invaded Later Jin, but that's quite a while after the start...).
A statement unsourced and not collaborated by the official histories of Song, including 宋史, and Song-era sources like 宋朝事实. As far as Wikipedia goes, it only appears in English one, Chinese and Japanese which have articles on Zhao Jing specifically mention that dates of birth and death are unknown.
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I can't read either Chinese or Japanese, so I can't check that without e.g. Google Translate (which doesn't always perform well with those languages), but I'll take your word for what those articles say.
However, even if Wikipedia's dates are made up that does not automatically make them inherently less accurate than dates made up by someone else (barring Wikipedia's dates contradicting other dates that do exist, of course, but as best I can tell that isn't the case...), so I don't think there's a compelling reason not to go with the former, particularly since we (and very possibly vanilla; vanilla definitely takes liberties with some verifiable dates*, definitely uses some dates with "Wikipedia says X"-style comments**, and definitely have historical characters landed in places they shouldn't be landed without commenting on them being placeholders***, so I wouldn't be surprised) use Wikipedia's dates elsewhere even if they're unsourced (and there's no contradictory information) rather than making something up in those cases.
*See e.g. e_byzantium.txt and greek.txt's comments regarding Michael the Drunkard's death/Basil the Macedonian's ascension to the throne
**See e.g. d_toscana.txt's comments
***See e.g. various jiedushi of Dingnan holding d_qinghai and other titles
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Well, it's up to you. Just saying that instead of completely ahistorical scenario you could have a one historically plausible at least.
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srry for my english, im from south america.
Could there be an emperor authority system in Japan? Something that would make that from positions like Daijo Daijin you can reduce his authority and prevent him from taking actions against you or have so much influence that you can have more influence than the emperor himself or allow an emperor with a lot of authority to rule more effectively.
Could there be an emperor authority system in Japan? Something that would make that from positions like Daijo Daijin you can reduce his authority and prevent him from taking actions against you or have so much influence that you can have more influence than the emperor himself or allow an emperor with a lot of authority to rule more effectively.
The next version will have mechanics for the Regent (Sessho/Kampaku) of the Tenno, for Shoguns, and for the Regent (Shikken) for the Shogun and the Regent or Regents' powers can change over time (and the existence of a Shogun limits the Tenno's power a bit since he'll be a vassal and the Shogun e.g. can take spare counties from him by spending prestige), so there's already some systems for the Tenno (Emperor) gaining or losing power on top of the normal Council Power/Crown Authority laws, and adding another layer on top of that seems excessive and like it would risk breaking the other systems that already are a bit messy due to CK2 not being built to support anything resembling the systems in Japan.
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Development Diary 39: Yet Another Progress Update
Dev Diary 39 - Yet Another Progress Update
It's been a while since the last dev diary, so I figure an update might be a good idea. There will be no screenshots this time, because most things that have been worked on aren't really interesting to look at.
History:
The historical setup for the first four bookmarks is quite far along. The remaining work can be divided into five categories (six, if you count "Delete old placeholders that aren't being used"), aside from polishing/bugfixing towards the end:
- 769/867/936 China. This is currently being worked on, and is rather far along. The area will be mostly free from placeholders, and most of the placeholders that exist will be actual historical people (there are a few exceptions).
- 1066 China (including Liao's tributary subjects). This currently looks like it will be very placeholder-heavy since I've not had any luck finding historical holders, but I'll be checking one more time as I'd rather do it properly if possible even though it would take more time to do that.
- Other characters in China that are worth adding, e.g. assorted Song people with (English) Wikipedia pages and possibly Confucius' descendants (if they're added, they'll probably get a bloodline even though it might die out rather easily (as I don't think they'll be landed anywhere and they thus aren't particularly likely to marry without player involvement)). Assorted Tang and FDaTK people have already been added (and also some Jin and Liao people), while Yuan definitely is something that can be postponed. This should be relatively straightforward.
- Japan. I've currently got a list of about 25 clans that would be relevant to add, though at this point it is a bit hard to say if there's enough information to add all of them, how many characters there would be for any one of those clans, or if there's any other clan worth adding. Once this work is done, a number of counties currently held by the relevant emperor that haven't been re-assigned when the aforementioned characters were added will still have to be re-assigned to other people (mainly the Regent, since the Regent needs to be landed and also should be rather powerful). Since a bunch of things here are rather unclear, this might end up being very little work or quite a lot of work.
- Vietnam. I'll be adding those of the Twelve Warlords that are alive in 936 that aren't already in the history files (and possibly also the others, even though they'd be unplayable) sometime soon. Seeing as that is a dozen characters or less (barring any extras that are deemed necessary), this should be quite simple.
Flavour + misc.:
The currently planned flavour for the next patch is relatively far along. What remains can be divided into three categories (including misc. stuff).
- Japan. There's a bit of localization related to the WotRS to finish up (it has taken a bit longer than expected due to a few things ending up requiring more events than I initially expected), the Shinto MO still needs to get done (as it will borrow heavily from others the main thing that's necessary is new pilgrimages), and there are a few assorted things to add (e.g. a few dozen assorted events not tied to something else (e.g. a society or decision)). I currently expect this to be relatively straightforward, barring writer's block.
- China. There are a few smallish maybes here, one small thing that I am pretty sure will be added, and one big thing that will be added barring any unforeseen problems (you'll hear more about this before release, assuming it works out). While the big thing will be a bit of work even if everything goes well I'd still rate this as mostly straightforward.
- Misc. stuff. There will probably be crusader traits added for our pagans (most likely with placeholder icons) and additional bookmarks for the early starts, and perhaps a couple of minor TODOs that there's time for. The second one is not the same as new start dates; it is merely a way to highlight some interesting characters with a brief description of what was going on in the area at the time (WIP "Interesting Times" (IC China) description found in the spoiler).
It is possible that something else will end up being included in the next version as well if it is decided that that needs to get done as part of it, which obviously would mean more work would be required. Even if the above is everything, it is too soon to say anything much about when you should expect a release, seeing as the exact amount some things might be expected to take is quite vague when it comes to several things, and depending on the issues that are discovered during the bugfixing phase (which, at the very least, will involve a number of long-ish observer games from each of the first four start dates, Validator checking (likely several times), error.log checking (likely several times), and at least one "game" of a few in-game years to try to catch possible blank/misfired events) the actual bugfixing could require some time as well.
With CK3 on the horizon, I would not be surprised if at least some of you are wondering how that will impact the future of Tianxia. Barring something major happening, I'm prepared to say that there will be at least one more full version (the one discussed above) relatively soon (barring significant scope creep or other obligations getting in the way), that there will be hotfixes to this version if strictly necessary (Read: If the game doesn't crash (or prevent you from continuing, e.g. due to a blank event you can't close), there's no random game over, and nothing absolutely critical is horribly broken, don't expect a hotfix), and (assuming a non-zero amount of bugs, which is a pretty safe assumption) there will be at least one patch for that version focused on bugfixing/polishing released reasonably close to release (but not right away; I intend to actually play Tianxia a bit before I bugfix stuff that can wait). Beyond that, there's a lot of unknowns (e.g. whether there will be sufficient interest in Tianxia after CK3 is out to make further development worthwhile and whether there's sufficient interest in working on Tianxia to make it remotely feasible to continue development), so nothing concrete can be said one way or another at this point.
It's been a while since the last dev diary, so I figure an update might be a good idea. There will be no screenshots this time, because most things that have been worked on aren't really interesting to look at.
History:
The historical setup for the first four bookmarks is quite far along. The remaining work can be divided into five categories (six, if you count "Delete old placeholders that aren't being used"), aside from polishing/bugfixing towards the end:
- 769/867/936 China. This is currently being worked on, and is rather far along. The area will be mostly free from placeholders, and most of the placeholders that exist will be actual historical people (there are a few exceptions).
- 1066 China (including Liao's tributary subjects). This currently looks like it will be very placeholder-heavy since I've not had any luck finding historical holders, but I'll be checking one more time as I'd rather do it properly if possible even though it would take more time to do that.
- Other characters in China that are worth adding, e.g. assorted Song people with (English) Wikipedia pages and possibly Confucius' descendants (if they're added, they'll probably get a bloodline even though it might die out rather easily (as I don't think they'll be landed anywhere and they thus aren't particularly likely to marry without player involvement)). Assorted Tang and FDaTK people have already been added (and also some Jin and Liao people), while Yuan definitely is something that can be postponed. This should be relatively straightforward.
- Japan. I've currently got a list of about 25 clans that would be relevant to add, though at this point it is a bit hard to say if there's enough information to add all of them, how many characters there would be for any one of those clans, or if there's any other clan worth adding. Once this work is done, a number of counties currently held by the relevant emperor that haven't been re-assigned when the aforementioned characters were added will still have to be re-assigned to other people (mainly the Regent, since the Regent needs to be landed and also should be rather powerful). Since a bunch of things here are rather unclear, this might end up being very little work or quite a lot of work.
- Vietnam. I'll be adding those of the Twelve Warlords that are alive in 936 that aren't already in the history files (and possibly also the others, even though they'd be unplayable) sometime soon. Seeing as that is a dozen characters or less (barring any extras that are deemed necessary), this should be quite simple.
Flavour + misc.:
The currently planned flavour for the next patch is relatively far along. What remains can be divided into three categories (including misc. stuff).
- Japan. There's a bit of localization related to the WotRS to finish up (it has taken a bit longer than expected due to a few things ending up requiring more events than I initially expected), the Shinto MO still needs to get done (as it will borrow heavily from others the main thing that's necessary is new pilgrimages), and there are a few assorted things to add (e.g. a few dozen assorted events not tied to something else (e.g. a society or decision)). I currently expect this to be relatively straightforward, barring writer's block.
- China. There are a few smallish maybes here, one small thing that I am pretty sure will be added, and one big thing that will be added barring any unforeseen problems (you'll hear more about this before release, assuming it works out). While the big thing will be a bit of work even if everything goes well I'd still rate this as mostly straightforward.
- Misc. stuff. There will probably be crusader traits added for our pagans (most likely with placeholder icons) and additional bookmarks for the early starts, and perhaps a couple of minor TODOs that there's time for. The second one is not the same as new start dates; it is merely a way to highlight some interesting characters with a brief description of what was going on in the area at the time (WIP "Interesting Times" (IC China) description found in the spoiler).
The Middle Kingdom is in turmoil, and has been that way ever since Taizu of Liang overthrew the Tang dynasty nearly three decades ago. Six would-be Emperors of China -- Li Congke of Tang, Liao (Yelu) Deguang of Liao, Shi Jingtang of Jin, Meng Chang of Shu, Yang Pu of Wu, and Liu Yan of Han -- all claim to possess the Mandate of Heaven, but whether one of them, one of their descendants, or someone else will prevail over the others has yet to be determined. Perhaps none of them will prevail and someone else will manage to secure the Dragon Throne, or perhaps the Middle Kingdom will never recover, which no doubt would please at least some of those who have lived in the shadow of the Dragon in the past. Regardless of what the future holds, these are certainly interesting times...
It is possible that something else will end up being included in the next version as well if it is decided that that needs to get done as part of it, which obviously would mean more work would be required. Even if the above is everything, it is too soon to say anything much about when you should expect a release, seeing as the exact amount some things might be expected to take is quite vague when it comes to several things, and depending on the issues that are discovered during the bugfixing phase (which, at the very least, will involve a number of long-ish observer games from each of the first four start dates, Validator checking (likely several times), error.log checking (likely several times), and at least one "game" of a few in-game years to try to catch possible blank/misfired events) the actual bugfixing could require some time as well.
With CK3 on the horizon, I would not be surprised if at least some of you are wondering how that will impact the future of Tianxia. Barring something major happening, I'm prepared to say that there will be at least one more full version (the one discussed above) relatively soon (barring significant scope creep or other obligations getting in the way), that there will be hotfixes to this version if strictly necessary (Read: If the game doesn't crash (or prevent you from continuing, e.g. due to a blank event you can't close), there's no random game over, and nothing absolutely critical is horribly broken, don't expect a hotfix), and (assuming a non-zero amount of bugs, which is a pretty safe assumption) there will be at least one patch for that version focused on bugfixing/polishing released reasonably close to release (but not right away; I intend to actually play Tianxia a bit before I bugfix stuff that can wait). Beyond that, there's a lot of unknowns (e.g. whether there will be sufficient interest in Tianxia after CK3 is out to make further development worthwhile and whether there's sufficient interest in working on Tianxia to make it remotely feasible to continue development), so nothing concrete can be said one way or another at this point.
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Not sure if mentioned already or if it is just me but every time I try to edit ruler the game crashes. I think it might have to do with the portraits.
I don't think we've changed anything that concerns character editing, and I'm not remotely good at portrait modding and rather doubt I could fix issues there, but please answer the following and it is possible I might be able to take a look to see if I can reproduce the issue.
- Do you have any mods enabled that aren't Tianxia or the Tianxia content packs?
- Are you sure you've not enabled any portrait packs you don't have the corresponding DLCs for (check the README)?
- In which way are you trying to edit the ruler (Ruler Designer or barbershop)?
- Which culture does the character have?
- Did you use Shattered/Random World?
I am experiencing an issue with China in my game. The Tang Dynasty died without a heir, and so the unrelated man became the next Emperor, founding the Wei Dynasty.
The problem is that when I tried to buy Grace from the Wei Dynasty, I was shocked to discover that the country was Feudal. The Emperor was Feudal. His vassals were Feudal. Everyone was Feudal. Suddenly, I was unable to perform any Chinese action. I have also noticed that the Chinese Emperor is perpetually leading armies and never breeds. He is lucky to have one kid, if any.
I suggest that you write an Event that forces China to turn back into the Imperial System through the On-Actions. I set the Rule where there are no restrictions on retaining that government if you conquer China. You should also force the Chinese Emperor to marry and produce kids. In RL, each Chinese Emperor had, IIRC, hundreds of kids with his hundreds of concubines. You should script this to occur for the AI. Players can do it on their own. In RL, the only real way to break a Chinese dynasty is to conquer it or kill everyone off. I cannot think of any situation where an Emperor simply died without a heir, simply because there were so many heirs.
The problem is that when I tried to buy Grace from the Wei Dynasty, I was shocked to discover that the country was Feudal. The Emperor was Feudal. His vassals were Feudal. Everyone was Feudal. Suddenly, I was unable to perform any Chinese action. I have also noticed that the Chinese Emperor is perpetually leading armies and never breeds. He is lucky to have one kid, if any.
I suggest that you write an Event that forces China to turn back into the Imperial System through the On-Actions. I set the Rule where there are no restrictions on retaining that government if you conquer China. You should also force the Chinese Emperor to marry and produce kids. In RL, each Chinese Emperor had, IIRC, hundreds of kids with his hundreds of concubines. You should script this to occur for the AI. Players can do it on their own. In RL, the only real way to break a Chinese dynasty is to conquer it or kill everyone off. I cannot think of any situation where an Emperor simply died without a heir, simply because there were so many heirs.
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e_china is set to always be Chinese Imperial if held by someone with an acceptable culture and religion combination, and only the former is covered by the game rule, so your emperor likely decided that he wanted to have a weird religion if you've opted out of the culture restriction. The EoC will usually convert back right away in AI hands as there's a "Hey, you just converted to a non-CI combo; did you mean to do that?" event that'll be triggered when that happens, but it is possible that that won't happen. Also, if his vassals are Feudal, they also likely have a weird culture-religion combo (and that government isn't covered by the game rule for cultures (as it'd interfere with Buddhists in e.g. India if it did)) as the Confucian Bureaucracy government isn't tied to having a Chinese Imperial liege, which suggests your China has strayed rather far from history.
If the emperor does pick up a weird culture/religion and doesn't convert back, they're supposed to lose both Chinese Imperial and the Grace system, as we a) don't want to have to deal with a ton of extra mechanics (e.g. coronations, excommunications, GHWs, and potentially being a rel head) that would come into play with some other religions, b) don't want to operate under the assumption that everyone that ends up holding e_china would be inclined to have a Chinese Imperial government as that could be immersion-breaking (e.g. a pious Catholic ruler going "Concubines are great, and marrying my daughters off to heathens is also great!" just because he gets the title would be rather weird), c) want there to be a relatively straightforward way to escape the system for the player (as not everyone might want to play a Chinese Imperial China), and d) want there to be trade-offs associated with being a Chinese Imperial China and thus the Grace target (e.g. you can't be that and have five holy orders since you'd have to be Catholic for the later) so that it isn't always beneficial to get/keep that government. Therefore, further events to force China to become Chinese Imperial won't be added as they'd be contrary to the above.
Regarding having few children, we've done nothing to reduce the number of children the EoC will have, and in fact cheat a bit in favour of having more children for Chinese and Japanese Imperial rulers. I suspect you simply got unlucky. Also, any date the Tang dynasty is around is still unsupported (which probably doesn't affect fertility, but still...), and vanilla (and therefore the latest public version of Tianxia, as it has close to zero historical Han characters added beyond vanilla) also skips a bunch of children for both Tang and Song emperors (though I don't think hundreds of confirmed children was the norm; Wikipedia only lists about 70 for Huizong of Song, and he's one of the emperors with the most kids), which means they die out more easily than they really should. As for marriages, we'll not force them, not even for the AI, as the EoC tends to marry at a reasonable enough rate and also tends to have a good number of concubines around, which along with the aforementioned cheating in his favour should result in a reasonable amount of children (though possibly not sons, which can result in the end of the dynasty).
Regarding leading armies, we've done nothing to adjust AI willingness to lead armies, so if anything that's a vanilla issue. Also, I don't think it affects fertility in any way other than e.g. seduction getting stuck at "I'm too busy to travel to X; should I really continue with this?".
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There is a specific rule you can enable that guarantees the Chinese Imperial government regardless of culture and religion. I specifically enabled that. As for forcing the Chinese Imperial government, I was referring to computer players and AI management, NOT players.
Furthermore, I consider it both historically inaccurate and immersion breaking that a Christian Chinese Emperor wouldn't, to some degree, be Sinicized. There is no way that China would EVER accept an Emperor that smashes the Imperial Examinations or any other unique features of the government. It wasn't until the twilight of the Qing Dynasty that enough pushing was done to shut that down. I'm saying that all of China wouldn't magically become Western and Feudal because someone managed to take the Dragon Throne. Just as with the Yuans and the Qings, they slowly became Sinicized and blended themselves into Chinese life. Why wouldn't the same happen to a Christian?
I don't mean that the Emperor's religion would change or he would become Confucian, or that a Catholic wouldn't remain loyal to the Pope. Rather, that he would assume the responsibilities of the Emperor, which included mass concubinage. Remember that tribal rulers and Nomads can take concubines even if they are Christian because of cultural norms. The same would go for the Emperor of China. Culture and religion aren't monolithic in CK2 for a reason, nor were they in history.
A. Why not just exclude the worst ones? For example, coronations and being the religious head could be disabled for China under Chinese Imperialism if neccesary. You could write an Event forcing a Temporal Religious Head to give the title to someone else. As for Crusades, why not just make it so they can't join?
B. It's immersion breaking for the Emperor of China to not be Sinicized. Every foreign Chinese dynasty in history adapted to the Chinese culture and way of life to a degree. They did not have to completely compromise themselves to do this, but things did change. A Sinicized Christian would have concubinage and elder reverence, but he certainly wouldn't have ancestor worship. I would imagine that Confucious would be demoted to a great thinker and philosopher and aligned with the Christian faith. There is no way that a Sinicized Christian couldn't find some fingers pointing at God from such a thinker. (For example, Confiucious has an identical Golden Rule to Christendom and both Familial Piety and honor culture, removing the idol aspect, would be adapted for sure.)
C. Yes, the player should have a right to escape it. Choice is good. That said, I firmly believe that there should be severe dangers and consequences for trying to remove everything Chinese from China's government. Realistically, this would not be allowed. Part of ruling China means- surprise surprise -dealing with Chinese customs and tradition.
D. I was referring to Events that force China when managed by the AI to be Chinese Imperial, not the player.
Also, what do you mean by "a chance to convert back"? A Serbian Orthodox Chinese Emperor isn't going to sit on the Dragon Throne and think "Oh man, this plank hat is so cool, I need to instantly forsake my soul, my people, and my God in order to keep it!". Nor is he going to say "I am going to force my Western feudalism on a bureaucratic structure and NOTHING will come up or have a problem with it!". Realistically, he would be Sinicized, keeping his identity but melting it into Chinese culture and mindsets. This is what the Yuans did and this is what the Qings did.
What does the Rule about ensuring the Chinese Imperial Government doesn't disappear based on culture and names mean? Why not create a Rule allowing players to choose whether or not Chinese Imperialism is enforced?
As for Christian coronations, that is an easy one. Either create a Trait and add it to the list of acceptable coronation Traits (for maximum immersion and potential Chinese-themed Christian coronation flavor) or just have an Event to remove the Uncrowned Trait.
Furthermore, I consider it both historically inaccurate and immersion breaking that a Christian Chinese Emperor wouldn't, to some degree, be Sinicized. There is no way that China would EVER accept an Emperor that smashes the Imperial Examinations or any other unique features of the government. It wasn't until the twilight of the Qing Dynasty that enough pushing was done to shut that down. I'm saying that all of China wouldn't magically become Western and Feudal because someone managed to take the Dragon Throne. Just as with the Yuans and the Qings, they slowly became Sinicized and blended themselves into Chinese life. Why wouldn't the same happen to a Christian?
I don't mean that the Emperor's religion would change or he would become Confucian, or that a Catholic wouldn't remain loyal to the Pope. Rather, that he would assume the responsibilities of the Emperor, which included mass concubinage. Remember that tribal rulers and Nomads can take concubines even if they are Christian because of cultural norms. The same would go for the Emperor of China. Culture and religion aren't monolithic in CK2 for a reason, nor were they in history.
A. Why not just exclude the worst ones? For example, coronations and being the religious head could be disabled for China under Chinese Imperialism if neccesary. You could write an Event forcing a Temporal Religious Head to give the title to someone else. As for Crusades, why not just make it so they can't join?
B. It's immersion breaking for the Emperor of China to not be Sinicized. Every foreign Chinese dynasty in history adapted to the Chinese culture and way of life to a degree. They did not have to completely compromise themselves to do this, but things did change. A Sinicized Christian would have concubinage and elder reverence, but he certainly wouldn't have ancestor worship. I would imagine that Confucious would be demoted to a great thinker and philosopher and aligned with the Christian faith. There is no way that a Sinicized Christian couldn't find some fingers pointing at God from such a thinker. (For example, Confiucious has an identical Golden Rule to Christendom and both Familial Piety and honor culture, removing the idol aspect, would be adapted for sure.)
C. Yes, the player should have a right to escape it. Choice is good. That said, I firmly believe that there should be severe dangers and consequences for trying to remove everything Chinese from China's government. Realistically, this would not be allowed. Part of ruling China means- surprise surprise -dealing with Chinese customs and tradition.
D. I was referring to Events that force China when managed by the AI to be Chinese Imperial, not the player.
Also, what do you mean by "a chance to convert back"? A Serbian Orthodox Chinese Emperor isn't going to sit on the Dragon Throne and think "Oh man, this plank hat is so cool, I need to instantly forsake my soul, my people, and my God in order to keep it!". Nor is he going to say "I am going to force my Western feudalism on a bureaucratic structure and NOTHING will come up or have a problem with it!". Realistically, he would be Sinicized, keeping his identity but melting it into Chinese culture and mindsets. This is what the Yuans did and this is what the Qings did.
What does the Rule about ensuring the Chinese Imperial Government doesn't disappear based on culture and names mean? Why not create a Rule allowing players to choose whether or not Chinese Imperialism is enforced?
As for Christian coronations, that is an easy one. Either create a Trait and add it to the list of acceptable coronation Traits (for maximum immersion and potential Chinese-themed Christian coronation flavor) or just have an Event to remove the Uncrowned Trait.
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That reminds me. Where in the code is the Casus Belli to actually invade China and become its Emperor? I couldn't find it, and all the Vanilla rendition ones concerning an Off-Map China were not part of it. Besides bordering China, what must be done to become its Emperor?
There NO game rule that changes which religions are eligible for Chinese Imperial.
Aside from the parts of the Chinese Imperial government script that were copied from vanilla -- which I intentionally didn't copy the culture/religion restrictions from -- I wrote the whole thing, and it is impossible to opt out of the religion restriction as things are set up.
Relevant government definition:
Code:
chinese_imperial_government = {
preferred_holdings = { CASTLE CITY }
allowed_holdings = {
CASTLE
CITY
FORT
HOSPITAL
}
allowed_holdings_culture = { # Will not get the wrong government type penalty for tribes of the same culture
TRIBAL
}
accepts_liege_governments = { # Gets the wrong religion modifier instead
chinese_imperial_government
chinese_vassal_government
}
free_revoke_on_tiers = {
duke
}
free_revoke_on_governments_religion = {
}
frame_suffix = "_chineseimperial"
potential = {
OR = {
primary_title = { has_title_flag = pretender_chinese_empire }
AND = {
OR = {
has_landed_title = e_china
any_liege = {
OR = {
AND = {
dynasty = ROOT
is_chinese_emperor_trigger = yes
}
liege_before_war = {
AND = {
dynasty = ROOT
is_chinese_emperor_trigger = yes
}
}
}
}
liege_before_war = {
AND = {
dynasty = ROOT
is_chinese_emperor_trigger = yes
}
}
}
}
}
has_acceptable_chinese_culture_trigger = yes
has_acceptable_chinese_religion_trigger = yes
is_patrician = no
}
color = { 118 255 163 }
barons_need_dynasty = yes
can_build_tribal = no
ignore_in_vassal_limit_calculation = {
tribal_government
}
capital_move_delay = 200
can_usurp_kingdoms_and_empires = no
can_create_empires = no
can_imprison_without_reason = no
can_revoke_without_reason = no
can_demand_religious_conversion = no
gets_religion_opinion_penalties = no
gives_religion_opinion_penalties = no
vassal_government_opinion_penalties = no
can_grant_kingdoms_and_empires_to_other_government_group = yes
free_retract_vassalage = yes
#marriage_ignore_religion = yes # Willing to marry regardless of religion IF both have this
vassal_limit = 10
max_consorts = 1000 # The EoC needs to be able to accept lots of concubines!
character_modifier = {
monthly_character_piety = 1
}
## Modifiers
court_size_modifier = 1000 # Intentionally higher than vanilla, to account for characters sent with the Grace system
}Relevant scripted_triggers:
Code:
has_acceptable_chinese_religion_trigger = {
OR = {
religion = taoist
religion = buddhist # Otherwise the historical Mongol rulers of China need to have the wrong religion to have access to this stuff
AND = { # Religion is as close as possible to being Taoist
OR = {
# While the unreformed religions won't be cosmopolitan and might be a *bit* more warlike than preferred, we don't want the EoC to lose Chinese Imperial just because he went e.g. Shenist -> Reformed Shenist
religion = chinese_pagan
religion = korean_pagan
religion = viet_pagan
AND = {
has_dlc = "Holy Fury" # Pagan religions would be crusading (and thus non-Chinese) without HF, so HF is required
OR = { # Base religion is good (lacks raiding, is located in/near China, gets stewardship bonus when picking Autonomous)
religion = chinese_pagan_reformed
religion = korean_pagan_reformed
religion = viet_pagan_reformed
religion = ryukyuan_pagan_reformed
}
has_religion_feature = religion_cosmopolitan # An intolerant China isn't very Chinese
OR = { # Meritocracy + Stability (+ one other feature)
AND = {
has_religion_feature = religion_feature_chinese # Meritocracy + Astronomy
has_religion_feature = religion_stable
}
AND = {
has_religion_feature = religion_feature_korean # Meritocracy + Animistic
has_religion_feature = religion_stable
}
# The Thanist religion's unique feature gives access to Eldership (which conflicts with meritocracy) and has Ancestor Veneration (which only works well with a rel head)
AND = {
has_religion_feature = religion_meritocratic
has_religion_feature = religion_stable
}
has_religion_feature = chinese_imperial_package_deal # Meritocracy + Stability
}
NOR = { # Does not have an unsuitable feature - relevant if the "package deal" is chosen or if someone mods in extra Doctrine slots
has_religion_feature = religion_holy_family # Makes shipping off princesses weird
has_religion_feature = religion_harems # Breaks concubinage
has_religion_feature = religion_patriarchal # Incompatible with Meritocracy
#has_religion_feature = religion_equal # Makes less sense with concubinage/shipping off princesses, but regular SoW currenlty doesn't affect those...
has_religion_feature = religion_matriarchal # Makes shipping off princesses weird, makes concubinage weird, makes eunuchs somewhat weird
has_religion_feature = religion_ritual_sacrifice # Not very Chinese, and should make people unwilling to ship off people
has_religion_feature = religion_adventuring # Offensive focus, so not very Chinese
has_religion_feature = religion_seafaring # Looting, so not very Chinese
has_religion_feature = religion_relentless # Offensive focus, so not very Chinese
has_religion_feature = religion_beatification # Eldership conflicts with meritocracy, at least for now
has_religion_feature = religion_feature_ryukyuan_three_mountains
has_religion_feature = religion_feature_ryukyuan_historical
}
has_religion_feature = religion_no_leader # If there is a rel head, the religion is crusading (due to Cosmopolitan being crusading), which isn't very Chinese
}
}
}
}
}
### Culture check for being "Chinese enough"
has_acceptable_chinese_culture_trigger = {
OR = {
culture_group = chinese_group
culture = khitan # Liao
culture = tangut # Xia
culture = jurchen # Jin
culture = mongol # Yuan
culture = kaifeng
culture = japanese
culture = yamato
culture = ryukyuan
culture_group = koreanic
culture = viet
has_game_rule = {
name = chinese_imperial_culture
value = unrestricted
}
}
}Relevant game rule:
Code:
chinese_imperial_culture = {
name = "RULE_CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE"
#dlc = "Jade Dragon"
group = "RULE_GROUP_TIANXIA"
option = {
name = restricted
text = "RULE_CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_RESTRICTED"
desc = "CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_RESTRICTED_DESC"
}
option = {
name = unrestricted
text = "RULE_CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_UNRESTRICTED"
desc = "CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_UNRESTRICTED_DESC"
}
}Relevant localization:
Code:
RULE_CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE;Chinese Imperial culture restriction;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
RULE_CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_RESTRICTED;Restricted;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_RESTRICTED_DESC;Only Chinese, Japanese, Yamato, Ryukyuan, Koreanic, Viet, Jurchen, Tangut, Khitan, Mongol, and Kaifeng rulers can use the Chinese Imperial government.;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
RULE_CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_UNRESTRICTED;Unrestricted;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
CHINESE_IMPERIAL_CULTURE_UNRESTRICTED_DESC;There are no cultural restrictions on the Chinese Imperial government form;;;;;;;;;;;;;xIn short, the game rule you've enabled does what it says it does, not what you think it does.
I don't want to have the AI play by different rules from the player, and the AI is already pretty likely to take advantage of the "Did you really mean to stop being Chinese Imperial just now?" opportunities to switch back to something that allowed it to be Chinese Imperial, so forcing anything further would be excessive and contrary to the "same rules" idea.
The thing is, the circumstances in which someone gets e_china is not always going to be remotely close to the historical circumstances in which it happened, and thus it might not be remotely sensible to create a bureaucratic administration.
For example, if you start as Charlemagne and blob your way east (and keep basically everything you conquer as part of your realm) and eventually create China, you've got a huge realm that -- assuming you're still Christian and haven't e.g. taken the ERE -- is Feudal and changing your whole government just because you decided to add "Emperor of China" to a long list of "Emperor of the HRE, of Arabia, of Persia, of Tibet, ..." isn't necessarily sensible, particularly not if the Chinese part of your realm is rather small (even if you snake your way east you'd likely have more provinces outside China in this situation than you'd have in China). Seeing as it'd be very messy to handle these kinds of scenarios, it's vastly preferable to have straightforward rules like "If you have an acceptable culture [any culture, with the game rule], and an acceptable religion, you get Chinese Imperial if you hold e_china. If you don't, you don't.".
Also, there are other government types that are lost if you change your culture or religion outside a fairly limited set of combinations (e.,g. Monastic Feudal), so it's not an unprecedented restriction, and in vanilla pretender empires lose Chinese Imperial with no opportunity to convert back if the heir has the wrong culture and the holder is an AI (the player gets the choice of "Convert culture or lose Chinese Imperial"...
We'd have to go through every single mechanic that'd come into play with a new (or different) religion and decide how to handle that particular issue, which is a pretty big undertaking and would require having to deal with tons of stuff (e.g. Enatic Clans and Divine Blood) that we currently can file under "This won't ever come up for a Chinese Imperial China, and thus we can safely ignore it" that might force us to rewrite existing script extensively to handle all manner of weird situations that now can come up.
It also wouldn't be remotely straightforward to handle some issues; for example, while I'm unsure about whether thetre's room to mod tthe HF Crusade joining the joining of every other GHW can't be disabled specifically for the holder of e_china (or any other title, or a specific government type, or whatever), so to disable it for China we'd have to disable the normal joining for everyone and then script in a separate decision -- which we'd have to invent the AI logic for from scratch -- to let others join.
Again, circumstances need not be remotely historical. Oh, and the foreign conquerors and various pretenders (e.g. Xia) can get Chinese Imperial if they take China (or hold a pretender empire), seeing as their cultures and religions (as defined in the game files; Kublai Khan is a Mongol Buddhist, for example) give them access to Chinese Imperial even when the strictest settings are used, so we handle historical (and near-historical) situations pretty well as things currently stand.
Said Serbian Orthodox ruler would presumably also have run into problems if he took over e_arabia from the Sunni Abbasids, and in vanilla (and Tianxia) CK2 he'd only have the options of "Convert" or "Remain Feudal", not anything remotely resembling a "Try to keep Iqta without changing myself because that's how the locals do things" option. If it had happened historically, maybe there'd been some unusual solution, but within the context of CK2 that's not an option.
Also, what Yuan did and what Qing did (well after the CK2 era...) isn't necessarily what someone else would do in different circumstances.
Because such a rule would be messier to implement and would require us to handle all of the weird stuff that now can happen, since if we add it we have to support it, and that means a lot more work needs to be done.
That'd still require a bit of extra work that we don't have to do at present, and in case you've not noticed the time between releases is already rather long due to a lot of things needing to be done with rather limited dev resources to throw at it. It'd also involve messing with vanilla -- which we don't do unless we have to -- and would set the precedent that an "easy" change to a mechanic that might interfere with Chinese Imperial -- in the hypothetical situation where we allowed for it to do so -- would be something we'd be prepared to deal with.
In short, we will not add a way for every religion to have Chinese Imperial, and there are currently no plans to add any more religions to the list of permissible religions seeing as there'd be various side issues we'd have to deal with if we did such a thing. If you want to mod it in on your own, you're welcome to do it, but you'll have to deal with all the additional issues on your own as well.
There's no specific CB to take China "just because" in Tianxia, and we have no plans to add one (with the possible exception of adding CBs to grab large parts of China as part of adding historical wars that are ongoing during specific start dates). Much as with any other blob you'll either have to get a claim (usually easier for China, since Imperial Marriages tend to be an option) or chip away at it using CBs that give you less land in one go (e.g. holy wars).
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