vnth

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Not sure that's something we'll consider, as it'll complicate gameplay if you end up playing as a female ruler or get a female heir.
powerful women, such as princesses, did often get to remarry. so if we hypothetically make a widowed trait or something, it wouldnt be too immersion breaking to assign it to only landless and non-heir women. it is, i feel, quite immersion breaking, however, to see consorts and even empresses remarrying, which would be absolutely beyond the pale.

The regular bishopric succession isn't moddable and isn't supposed to be playable, so I doubt it can be used. It might be possible to do something with custom elective laws, but we'd then have to invent it from scratch, we'd have to figure out how it should be applied and under which circumstances it should be possible to get out of it (as it neither should be trivial nor impossible), and we'd have to figure out how to keep it from causing a game over on a frequent basis and how to keep it from making realms ludicrously stable because there's no way for vassals to consolidate power.
I tried to create an elective government before. the problem is that the succession system ignored all of the dynastic mechanics. the family of the previous ruler became the courtiers of the new one and got assigned either subpar marriages or no marriage at all. i wonder if there's a way to fix this. maybe if we count counties as private estates that are inheritable, and duchies and above as elective government posts. that way, if a family no longer control a government post, they still have their county to fall back on. not sure what this means for claims though.

as for the realm being too stable, id say that would be more accurate since the main problem facing most bureaucratic rulers wasnt so much constant regional instability but rather having one employee getting too powerful. to offset realm stability, maybe severely reduce the number of vassal limit and the set the number of holding to 1, forcing the emperor to consolidate the realm. as a vassal, the key thing in elective succession is to get along with the other people. if you play the game well enough, the chance of social mobility is actually even higher than in feudal succession.
 

Aerotinge

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Whoa! Shaolin Kung Fu. Just make sure you having their hair shaved bald.
And how about making Wu Tang Clan as Taoist Holy Orders like Shaolin? It's kinda fictional but it's somehow based on historical martial arts in Qing Dynasty(17 C.)
(And I want my black son join them:cool:)
 

Silversweeeper

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powerful women, such as princesses, did often get to remarry. so if we hypothetically make a widowed trait or something, it wouldnt be too immersion breaking to assign it to only landless and non-heir women. it is, i feel, quite immersion breaking, however, to see consorts and even empresses remarrying, which would be absolutely beyond the pale.

Landless non-heir women could still be quite high in the line of succession if you've mainly had daughters or your sons have been dying/getting disinherited for whatever reason, which means it easily could become a problem if something happens to the remaining people in front of them. It would also mean that strange marriage choices (lowborns, random foreigners that ended up in someone's court, etc.) would become more popular, which doesn't seem like a good thing, and it would make it harder to set up alliances, which seems like it could be a big problem. Gameplay likely needs to win out over realism.

I tried to create an elective government before. the problem is that the succession system ignored all of the dynastic mechanics. the family of the previous ruler became the courtiers of the new one and got assigned either subpar marriages or no marriage at all. i wonder if there's a way to fix this. maybe if we count counties as private estates that are inheritable, and duchies and above as elective government posts. that way, if a family no longer control a government post, they still have their county to fall back on. not sure what this means for claims though

Given that the marriage system is unmoddable, issues with the marriage system are a big problem.

As for treating counties as inheritable and other titles as not, that's essentially the current viceroyalty system, which is used by default in Chinese Imperial realms if you've got CM. Sure, some kind of election would change things a bit as the liege wouldn't get as much of a say, but considering horrendous vassalgore isn't likely to be something we want to have as the default state the natural restrictions that'd impose on new candidates would result in the candidates probably being roughly the same people that'd be likely viceroys. At that point it doesn't feel like it changes things particularly much.

as for the realm being too stable, id say that would be more accurate since the main problem facing most bureaucratic rulers wasnt so much constant regional instability but rather having one employee getting too powerful. to offset realm stability, maybe severely reduce the number of vassal limit and the set the number of holding to 1, forcing the emperor to consolidate the realm. as a vassal, the key thing in elective succession is to get along with the other people. if you play the game well enough, the chance of social mobility is actually even higher than in feudal succession.

I'm aware that internal stability should be the normal state of affairs for Chinese Imperial realms, but if it is too difficult for vassals to consolidate power or too easy for the liege to fix the problem if it happens (which it likely would be if it wasn't possible to consolidate power past succession; arranging for the death of a vassal isn't necessarily difficult, particularly not when China's income is high enough that bribes probably are a non-issue) then the issue of vassals consolidating would likely be negligible and it consequently likely wouldn't be particularly interesting to play as a vassal unless you could overthrow your liege (or get independence) within a generation.

I doubt we'll nerf the vassal limit for Chinese Imperial, particularly as that could cause unavoidable problems if it is impossible to consolidate (say if you turn Chinese Imperial after getting a huge realm and already have a ton of king-tier vassals; tyrannical revokation is forbidden for Chiense Imperial, and you can't place a king under a king), and having random parts of the realm go independent because you're above the vassal limit on succession seems quite unfitting. It also seems self-contradictory if vassals consolidating are what you should fear as Chinese Imperial and you're forced to consolidate vassals earlier than you normally would be, might mean the historical setup is unfeasible because it might result in too many vassals, and might cause other issues.

As for nerfing the demesne limit for Chinese Imperial, that also causes problems. It would mean you'd immediately get weaker if you swap to Chinese Imperial (which seems strange) as you would have to get rid of your excess counties, it would likely not always work (stacking Stewardship bonuses would presumably still work), it wouldn't give deposed dynasties or rulers any real shot at getting back as they'd not have any kind of real powerbase (historically people usually didn't make a comeback, but for gameplay reasons that probably needs to be possible), and it could probably result in other issues.
 

vnth

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Landless non-heir women could still be quite high in the line of succession if you've mainly had daughters or your sons have been dying/getting disinherited for whatever reason, which means it easily could become a problem if something happens to the remaining people in front of them. It would also mean that strange marriage choices (lowborns, random foreigners that ended up in someone's court, etc.) would become more popular, which doesn't seem like a good thing, and it would make it harder to set up alliances, which seems like it could be a big problem. Gameplay likely needs to win out over realism.
the heir issue i feel had already been more than compensated for by polygamy. unlike muslim wives, concubines can be practically abandoned at will, making it even easier to have more heirs. and since strictly speaking, confucianism doesnt allow left handed marriage, marriage between paternal cousins, or even people of the same surname, having female heirs is already way too lenient. at the very least, widow chastity should be included for the imperial harem.
As for treating counties as inheritable and other titles as not, that's essentially the current viceroyalty system, which is used by default in Chinese Imperial realms if you've got CM. Sure, some kind of election would change things a bit as the liege wouldn't get as much of a say, but considering horrendous vassalgore isn't likely to be something we want to have as the default state the natural restrictions that'd impose on new candidates would result in the candidates probably being roughly the same people that'd be likely viceroys. At that point it doesn't feel like it changes things particularly much.
there could be election pluses and minuses similar to hre election. candidates holding too much lands or not talented enough should be penalized. conversely, people with high learning and good traits should have an advantage. or you could just bribe everyone.
I'm aware that internal stability should be the normal state of affairs for Chinese Imperial realms, but if it is too difficult for vassals to consolidate power or too easy for the liege to fix the problem if it happens (which it likely would be if it wasn't possible to consolidate power past succession; arranging for the death of a vassal isn't necessarily difficult, particularly not when China's income is high enough that bribes probably are a non-issue) then the issue of vassals consolidating would likely be negligible and it consequently likely wouldn't be particularly interesting to play as a vassal unless you could overthrow your liege (or get independence) within a generation.
this is simply an issue of coming up with a way to make powerful vassals more threatening, so that things are difficult for you even when the realm is stable. with things as they are, cleaning up after vassals as chinese imperial isnt that hard either. in fact, with free duchy revocation and vassal retraction, it is extremely easy to the point of being pure busywork.

with bureaucratic governments, the other edge of stability is the severity of justice. if a vassal committed a crime, they shouldnt get an opinion mallus. the liege should be out to get them. vassals should be constantly scheme against each other and especially their boss, trying to reveal real and imagined crimes, or defaming them for not being virtuous enough. theres already the fabricating proof of treason plot in the vanilla. there could be more of such plots, and these could replace the whole claim mechanic.
I doubt we'll nerf the vassal limit for Chinese Imperial, particularly as that could cause unavoidable problems if it is impossible to consolidate (say if you turn Chinese Imperial after getting a huge realm and already have a ton of king-tier vassals; tyrannical revokation is forbidden for Chiense Imperial, and you can't place a king under a king), and having random parts of the realm go independent because you're above the vassal limit on succession seems quite unfitting. It also seems self-contradictory if vassals consolidating are what you should fear as Chinese Imperial and you're forced to consolidate vassals earlier than you normally would be, might mean the historical setup is unfeasible because it might result in too many vassals, and might cause other issues.
this could possibly be dealt with with free kingdom revocation. it might certainly be frustrating, but im not sure if it's unfitting. failing to consolidate an extremely large realm was exactly what happened to kublai khan. certainly, one cannot expect the realm to expand extremely fast and at the same time is extremely stable. historical setup and gameplay disparity has always been in the game. historical monarchs could hold more than 2 duchies.
As for nerfing the demesne limit for Chinese Imperial, that also causes problems. It would mean you'd immediately get weaker if you swap to Chinese Imperial (which seems strange) as you would have to get rid of your excess counties, it would likely not always work (stacking Stewardship bonuses would presumably still work), it wouldn't give deposed dynasties or rulers any real shot at getting back as they'd not have any kind of real powerbase (historically people usually didn't make a comeback, but for gameplay reasons that probably needs to be possible), and it could probably result in other issues.
this is nothing more than what all chinese monarchs had to deal with, whether to put faith in the bureaucracy or in their own family. it was not for nothing that powerful princely fiefdoms were created all the time. if presumably some members of a former imperial dynasty still hold at least 1 county, then the most feasible path to regaining the throne is basically the same as with everyone else: by participating in the bureaucracy and monopolize power as an official, ala xu zhigao. without the regional warfare of western europe, having 5 instead of 1 counties probably wont help much anyway.
 

Silversweeeper

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the heir issue i feel had already been more than compensated for by polygamy. unlike muslim wives, concubines can be practically abandoned at will, making it even easier to have more heirs. and since strictly speaking, confucianism doesnt allow left handed marriage, marriage between paternal cousins, or even people of the same surname, having female heirs is already way too lenient. at the very least, widow chastity should be included for the imperial harem.

It's easier to get heirs with polygamy/concubinage, sure, but unless you're Chinese Imperial (or Japanese Imperial) -- which are governments that cheat when it comes to the pregnancy mechanics (using cheats we won't give to everyone because of performance reasons) -- you still have to contend with the fact that childbirth outside of events (e.g. Seduction focus tumbling) stops (or drops off to a massive extent, at the very least) at about nine living children (or eight plus twins/nine plus pregnancies that were ongoing), which means that unless you somehow get your children killed (which you can't do with plots (due to the inability to target your own children) or tyrannical imprisonment + execution (due to the relevant government types forbidding imprisonment without a reason)) you very well could be in a situation where you primarily have daughters and where your sons can't inherit (e.g. due to joining a holy order or being eunuchs).

As for left-handed marriages, marriages between paternal cousins, or marriages between people with the same surname, the only one of those possible to block is paternal cousins (at the cost of also blocking maternal cousins) due to marriages being hardcoded, so there's not much we can do there.

Regarding female heirs, I believe every Taoist ruler (and Shenist, and most Buddhists too) starts out with Agnatic, so they won't be overly common. Blocking Agnatic-Cognatic entirely seems excessive (particularly when some bureaucratic realms got inherited by women historically, however rare), as the AI probably won't switch to it overly frequently. Cognatic is of course generally disallowed (unless you get Full SoW, belong to very specific cultures or religions, or use Full Gender Equality).

As for chastity for former members of the imperial harem, given that we can't prevent the emperor from abducting someone into it it doesn't seem very fun for the player if anyone so abducted is unable to be married off if they get the abducted person back. For harem members that have been shipped off to China as part of the Grace system it might make more sense, but it seems a bit excessive, would probably not block concubinage (at least not for the player), and might not be fun for someone that wants to marry a former concubine for roleplay reasons (e.g. because they're the concubine's lover).

there could be election pluses and minuses similar to hre election. candidates holding too much lands or not talented enough should be penalized. conversely, people with high learning and good traits should have an advantage. or you could just bribe everyone.

There are of course factors that could be considered if such a system was implemented, but it would be something that would have to be implemented basically from scratch (which means copy-pasting isn't really going to be an option) and that's not straightforward to implement due to the size of any such logic (vanilla's candidate_score blocks are over 3k for all succession laws), and we'd also have to consider a number of secondary issues (e.g. under what circumstances it should be possible to get out of the system, what happens if you incorporate a hereditary Confucian Bureaucracy realm into your realm, what happens if you have vassals that don't have the Confucian Bureaucracy government type (some hypothetical subjects, such as the Pope and the Tenno, definitely shouldn't use this succession type if they somehow end up under China)). At the very least, this isn't something we'll do anytime soon, considering we've got plenty of things to work on already.

this is simply an issue of coming up with a way to make powerful vassals more threatening, so that things are difficult for you even when the realm is stable. with things as they are, cleaning up after vassals as chinese imperial isnt that hard either. in fact, with free duchy revocation and vassal retraction, it is extremely easy to the point of being pure busywork.

Since Chinese Imperial already is fairly easy, I don't think that making it easier is the right way to go, and it isn't straightforward to make vassals more troublesome, particularly not when we don't want to mess with vanilla's stuff unless we have to and when we also don't really want to create a separate system for just Chinese Imperial realms (or some other subset). Again, I don't really see us attempting anything like this anytime soon.

with bureaucratic governments, the other edge of stability is the severity of justice. if a vassal committed a crime, they shouldnt get an opinion mallus. the liege should be out to get them. vassals should be constantly scheme against each other and especially their boss, trying to reveal real and imagined crimes, or defaming them for not being virtuous enough. theres already the fabricating proof of treason plot in the vanilla. there could be more of such plots, and these could replace the whole claim mechanic.

There's no plot to fabricate proof of treason; there's an Intrigue focus action, and a) the AI is not terribly bright when it comes to using that focus and b) the focus can be blocked for the AI with a game rule (making it bad to rely on) due to its poor use of it and it is DLC-locked, which means we can't expect everyone to have access to it (and thus that we shouldn't base Chinese vassal gameplay around the assumption that everyone plays with WoL and AI Intrigue allowed) and also means that we can't really copy-paste the mechanic without DLC-locking it. Also, just adding extra scheming in Chinese Imperial/etc. realms while not letting anyone else scheme seems quite odd, and runs into the aforementioned "Don't mess with vanilla" and "Don't create separate systems" issues.

Having more plots would also not necessarily result in a less stable realm, considering a plot is a valid imprisonment reason and that strong scheming vassals thus can be dealt with fairly easily (and if they rebel and get crushed you can revoke an additional title off of them), considering it means some strong vassals might be dealt with by others that plot, and considering that the AI might become less prone to picking more dangerous plot as a result because it easily could get distracted; a "Fabricate evidence" plot available against a lot of targets might be picked over "Fabricate a claim on your liege's primary" or "Murder someone you stand to inherit from" plot.

Also, as already mentioned, reworking core mechanics is neither straightforward nor easy, so making vassals of Chinese Imperial realms scheme more, use special plots, and the like seems like it would be rather messy and seems well beyond the scope of anything we're likely to consider anytime soon given how much we're already planning to do as part of the next release and probably a good number of releases after it. Replacing the ability to fabricate claims would also likely be messy as that would mean you'd be unable to get a county back from a vassal without wiping out every conceivable heir unless you had intermarried for a claim, that vassals would have very limited opportunities for expanding if things are starting to break down enough that they can fight internally, and so on, so it seems preferable to keep the ability to fabricate claims.

this could possibly be dealt with with free kingdom revocation. it might certainly be frustrating, but im not sure if it's unfitting. failing to consolidate an extremely large realm was exactly what happened to kublai khan. certainly, one cannot expect the realm to expand extremely fast and at the same time is extremely stable. historical setup and gameplay disparity has always been in the game. historical monarchs could hold more than 2 duchies.

Free kingdom revokation on top of all of the other liege-favoured stuff going into Chinese Imperial would make it a nightmare to play as a vassal and would make it even easier (assuming you either prevent the council from voting on revokation or ensure that they vote your way) for the liege to revoke all higher titles from foreigners, heathens, anyone trying to start a faction, claimants, and anyone consolidating even slightly. I really doubt we'll add it.

As for the fittingness of parts of the realm defecting and Kublai Khan, I think it is rather different to lose control of faraway nomadic/tribal areas (that probably will be considered held by tributaries in the game) and having a random vassal in China itself defect despite the realm doing well just because they happened to be Ambitious/Greedy and their liege was above the vassal limit.

this is nothing more than what all chinese monarchs had to deal with, whether to put faith in the bureaucracy or in their own family. it was not for nothing that powerful princely fiefdoms were created all the time. if presumably some members of a former imperial dynasty still hold at least 1 county, then the most feasible path to regaining the throne is basically the same as with everyone else: by participating in the bureaucracy and monopolize power as an official, ala xu zhigao. without the regional warfare of western europe, having 5 instead of 1 counties probably wont help much anyway.

Having five counties rather than one is not an insignificant difference when it comes to reliable levies and taxes (both of which can be useful when it comes to handling factions), and extra counties mean that you'd not be facing a game over if you lost the throne and lost a single rebellion (say because your new liege wanted to revoke a duchy), which otherwise would be a concern as you can't just revoke a few counties to have a powerbase after losing your throne (as Confucian Bureacracy forbids tyrannical revokation).


TL;DR:

- Realism/historical accuracy isn't necessarily better than interesting/fun gameplay.

- We'll not mess with vanilla unless we have to and we'll likely not create separate systems.

- New mechanics aren't trivial to implement, and even if something is feasible it might still not be something we want to do.

- Even if we add special mechanics for bureaucratic realms it is unlikely there will be major changes anytime soon.
 

Silversweeeper

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We've got a bit of a translation/research issue that help would be appreciated with, since Google Translate isn't doing so great when it comes to Chinese and we don't have anyone active on the team that reads Chinese.

In short, there are articles for some jiedushi (and possibly also other relevant administrative divisions) on the Chinese version of Wikipedia that don't exist (or that are considerably less extensive) in English, several of which contain lists of rulers and dates (e.g. Hunan https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/湖南都团练守捉观察处置使) that would be quite helpful when it comes to adding historical rulers. Unfortunately, Google Translate does a rather poor job of translating even just the namelists (e.g. the Hunan article linked above ends up with "names" like "Questions about Dugu" and "Li still uncle", and based on the fact that some names end up being translated differently if you look at a linked page I'm not fully convinced it manages to translate the plausible-looking names correctly), and it is also very difficult to locate relevant articles when you don't understand what they're saying and the translation often is atrocious (if you want an example of just how bad it can be, run the Chinese version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingnan_West_Circuit through Google Translate).


In order to make use of the information we'd therefore need a) help locating relevant articles (sorry, and b) help translating the relevant bits of those articles into something like this (the information below is just a mock-up, so there's no need to comment on it being incorrect):

Lingnan [link to untranslated page; we might want to check other pages it links to (particularly to see if two people with the same name in different places are the same person) or have questions about something on the page]

Any important information from the main part of the article (e.g. "Independent between 860 and 870")

Rulers [please include all of those listed, not just those during playable dates]:

Li Keyong 769-770

Shi Jingtang 770-779

Qian Liu (during the reign of Xingzong)

...



We're interested in this for any administrative division that'd be large enough to be represented as a county or larger in CK2 (excluding the empires (or kingdoms during the FDaTK period) themselves; we know about the rulers of those already), with the current priority being as follows:

- Tang between 765-ish (as a living ruler that lost a title just before 769 might be an acceptable placeholder if there's no known ruler) and the end of the dynasty. It is somewhat interesting to have information about earlier rulers if the list also contains something from the relevant period, but lists that only contain rulers before 765-ish are not particularly interesting for us.

- Various FDaTK realms in 936-ish (as above we might consider someone that ruled at roughly the right time a valid placeholder). Information from other FDaTK dates is somewhat interesting, but as they'd not be playable we're less interested in them.

- Song between its founding and 1067. It is not a problem to include later rulers, but we're currently less interested in them. Lists only containing rulers before 1066 are less relevant than those that include someone in 1066.

- Liao/Xia between their founding and 1067. It is not a problem to include later rulers, but we're currently less interested in them. Lists only containing rulers before 1066 are less relevant than those that include someone in 1066.

- Nanzhao/Da Changhe/Da Tianxing/Da Yining/Dali. Information after 1067 is less important at the moment, but we'll need it eventually.

- Song between 1067 and its fall.

- Liao/Xia/Jin between 1067 (or 1115-ish, for Jin) and their fall.

- Yuan and pre-Yuan Mongol territory in China.


If you are posting any translated information, please put it inside spoiler brackets. Lists of rulers take up a lot of space.


Also, while that'd be a separate thing beyond the scope of Tianxia, I would assume that Wikipedia wouldn't mind if you created English translations of the Chinese articles (or even just the information I've asked for here) as actual pages, so that might be something to look into as well if you're helping with the above...
 

Aerotinge

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Ziqing Jiedushi, aka Ziqing Pinglu Jiedushi
Founding:
Hou Xiyi, a royalist general murders his rebelous liege, Xu Guidao(?-757) during Anshi Rebellion. He was granted both Pinglu and Ziqing Jiedushi after end of the Rebellion.
Separatism of Li:
In 765, an army faction lauch coup, supporting Li Huaiyu as their general. The government admit posthumously and give him name "Li Zhengji".
Li Na, son of Li Zhengji, ask the government for succeeding titles of his father. And go rebelous war(781-784, ended white peace) on being refused. The Li family controls the title till 819.
After Li Shidao was defeated and executed by the government army. The government took back Ziqing Jiedushi until the rebellion of Huang Chao breaking out.
Code:
Holder                Since                           End                   Liege           Holder lifespan                   Misc
###                                                                       Tang       
Hou Xiyi           758(granted)                   765(abdict = yes)                   720-781
Li Zhengji           765(install by faction demand)   781(death illness)                   732-781                           Goryeo origin
###781.1.1                                                               liege = 0
Li Na               781(inherited)                   792(death natual)                   759-792                           son of Zhengji
Li Shigu            792(inherited)                   806(death illness)                   ?-806   cruel                    son of Na
Li Shidao           806(inherited)                   819(executed)                       ?-819                           younger bro of Shigu
###819.1.1                                                               Tang
Xue Ping           819                               825                                   757-836
Kang Zhimu           825                               831                               
Wang Chengyuan       831                               833                                   801-834                        younger bro of Wang Chengzhong of Chengde Jiedushi
Yan Xiufu           833                               834                               
Wang Yanwei        835                               836
Chen Junshang       836                               839#
Wei Chang           839                               840
Wu Hanzhen           841                               842
Li Pin               843                               844
Cui Li               845                               846                                                                   Jiedushi of the Tianping Army(846-847)
Zheng Guang           847                               849                                   ?-857                            maternal uncle of Emperor Xuanzong(217716)
Zheng Juan           849?                           850
Sun Fan               850                               852
Wei Bo               852                               855#
Li Zhuo               855                               858
Linghu Xu           858                               859
Wei Ao               859                               861                                   cynical
Feng Ao               861                               862
Cui Zhirou           863                               865
Li Sui               865?                           870?                           
Yu Juan               870                               872
Song Wei           873                               878
Zeng Yuanyu           878                               878
Yang Sun           878                               879                                   stubborn
An Shiru           879                               882
Wang Jingwu           882                               889                                   ?-889.10.27, pround
###889.1.1                                                               under Zhu Wen, the Xuanwu Jiedushi, and later Emperor Taizu of Later Liang
Wang Shifan           889                               891                                   874-908.7.10, just, executed by Zhu Wen
###891.1.1                                                               Tang
Wang Shifan           891                               905
###905(Dawn of FDaTK)                                                           Later Liang(actually established in 907)
Li Zhen               905                               905                                   ?-923, executed by Emperor Zhuangzong(261133) of Later Tang
Wang Chongshi       905                               906
Han Jian           906                               912?                               855-912.8.15?
He Delun           910                               913                                   ?-916                            Datong Jiedushi(915)
Zhang Wanjin       913                               914                               
Yuan Xiangxian       914                               914                                                                   Jiedushi of the Tianping Army(910-913)
He Delun           914                               915
Yuan Xiang           916                               917                                   860?-924.7.11,greedy , nephew of Emperor Taizu of Later Liang
Zhao Gu               918                               918
Zhu Gui               918                               918
###918.1.1 holder = 0
###923                                                           Later Tang
Dai Siyuan           923                               924                                   ?-935                           Jiedushi of the Tianping Army(921-923)
Fu Xi               924                               926
Huo Yanwei           926                               928                                   872-928, one_eyed               Jiedushi of the Tianping Army(917-921)(926)
Wang Jianli           928                               930                                   ?-941, wroth, buddist           Jiedushi of the Tianping Army (934-936) (936-937)
Wang Yanqiu           930                               932                                   873-932                           Jiedushi of the Tianping Army(929-930)
Fang Zhiwen           932                               936                                   ?-936, brave, greedy           Jiedushi of the Tianping Army(930-932)
Wang Jianli           936                               940
###940.1.1                                                               Later Jin
Yang Guangyuan       940                               944                                   ?-944, cruel
###944.1.1 holder = 0 (Title forfeit)
###947.1.1 created
Yang Chengxin       947                               947                                   921-964, giant, gregarious       son of Guangyuan
###947                                                                   Later Han
Liu Zhu               947                               950                                   ?-950, cruel, arbitrary
Fu Yanqing           950                               952                                   898-975                           Jiedushi of the Tianping Army(952-954)
###951                                                                   Later Zhou
Wang Jun            953                               953                                   902-953
Chang Si           953                               954
Li Hongyi           954                               958                                909-967
An Shenqi           958                               959                                   896-959, temperate
Liu Xigu           960                               960                                   903-976
Guo Chong           960                               965                                908-965
Zhang Quancao       969                               971
Zhao Yanjin           975                               977

Oops...bbcode is terrible for typesetting...I'd better upload .txt file.
EDIT: fix some liege mistake between 905-923, it should be Later Liang not Later Tang. And there may be more wrong lieges in era of FDaTK.
EDIT^2: It comes up to my mind that there's a HIP sub-mod called "五代通志(Comprehensive Records of Five Dynasties? Sorry can't remember it right now)"
How about asking him/her for experiences and tips about this "chronology project"?
 

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AuxOlives

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Hi guys,

1. You can find information on Baidu Baike https://baike.baidu.com and I strongly advise you to use Baidu Fanyi https://fanyi.baidu.com instead of Google Translate. Another great tool to get Pinyin and distinguish traditional from simplified Chinese is MDBG https://www.mdbg.net

Add a line break to each punctuation in the text to be translated in Baidu Fanyi, it will become easier to understand the generated translation:
唐高宗、武后时期,为了加强防御力量和改变临时征调的困难,这类屯戍军设置愈多,并逐渐制度化,形成有固定驻地和较大兵力的军、镇、守捉,各自置使。

To be replaced with:

唐高宗、
武后时期,
为了加强防御力量和改变临时征调的困难,
这类屯戍军设置愈多,
并逐渐制度化,
形成有固定驻地和较大兵力的军、
镇、
守捉,
各自置使。

2. Here are some materials about Jiedu’s military governorship

3. I've ask few friends and besides Jiedu, it seems that it is pretty hard to find governors of 道 (Tang / Liao),路 (Bei Song / Nan Song / Jin) and 行中书省 (Yuan) on internet, it seems that the only way to get these information would be through libraries... I'll keep you updated if I find any information.

4. For any Chinese speaker, here is a list of districts to look for:
1、唐朝

太宗十道(关内,河北,河东,河南,淮南,剑南,江南,岭南,陇右,山南),玄宗道(都畿,京畿,江南《黔中,江南西,江南东》,京畿《山南西,山南东》)

天宝十节度使(范阳,平卢,河东,朔方,河西,安西,北庭,陇右,剑南,岭南五府经略使)

都督府

2、辽朝

五道(上京,东京,西京,南京,中京)

3、宋朝(北宋)

二十四路(成都府,福建,广南东,广南西,河北东,河北西,河东,淮南东,淮南西,江南东,江南西,京东东,京东西,荆湖北,荆湖南,京畿,京西北,京西南,夔州,两浙,利州,秦凤,永兴军,梓州)

4、宋朝(南宋)

十七路(成都府,福建,广南东,广南西,淮南东,淮南西,江南东,江南,荆湖北,荆湖南,京西南,夔州,两浙东,两浙西,利州东,利州西,潼川府)

5、金朝

十九路(北京,大名府,东京,凤翔,鄜延,河北东,河北西,河东北,河东南,京兆府,临洮,南京,庆原,山东东,山东西,上京,咸平,西京,中都)

6、元朝

十一行中书省(甘肃,湖广,河南江北,江西,江浙,辽阳,岭北,陕西,四川,云南,征东)

征东行省,征缅行省,交趾行省,占城行省,宣政院

Good luck!
 

Warial

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路 (Bei Song /
If a quick reference is what you are looking for then wiki has lists of 安抚使 for Northern Song Like this one. Unfortunately, it lacks dates so it won't be much of an use without consulting at least 宋史 and 资治通鉴长编.
 

Silversweeeper

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While it is possible that we'll revert this change (or that we'll make other changes) depending on certain factors, it is likely that Japan no longer will be just one large kingdom in the next version, which should make consolidation as a vassal a bit easier.

ck2_3.png


While the vassal setup still is extremely WIP (it has barely been touched outside of fixing obvious issues caused by k_japan not having a holder in 1066), this is how the 1066 setup currently looks (other start dates haven't been touched at this point).

ck2_4.png


The combined Fujiwara holdings ("Fujiwara" + Tokai + Sanin) only contain about two thirds of the realm's levies in the current setup, down from somewhere around 90 %. Speaking for the Tenno, Fujiwara Yorimichi has let it be known that this merely is a setback and that the Tenno of course intends to cooperate fully with further Fujiwara consolidation.
 

Keizer Harm

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I agree with the new de jure setup, though not so much with the "X and Y" naming convention. I personally would prefer a pars pro toto.
 

Silversweeeper

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I agree with the new de jure setup, though not so much with the "X and Y" naming convention. I personally would prefer a pars pro toto.

It is quite possible that the names will change once we decide which setup we want to commit to; I'm not entirely sold on "X and Y" or "X-Y" names either, but at the moment that's convenient for development purposes.
 

Wixelt

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What's the reasoning behind the boundaries of the de-jure kingdoms in Honshu?
 

Silversweeeper

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What's the reasoning behind the boundaries of the de-jure kingdoms in Honshu?

The breakup as a whole is a combination of:

- The Gokishichido borders. It is a historical administrative breakup, but it isn't ideal to use as-is; for one thing, a number of kingdoms would be too small.

- The regions of Japan. Not an administrative breakup, and would also result in some very small kingdoms.

- Gameplay considerations. Too small kingdoms makes it too easy to become a king, too large kingdoms makes it too easy to take land using kingdom-tier CBs.

- Balance. The current kingdoms have a similar number of counties; one has 13, three have 17, and one has 21.

- Other smaller considerations (e.g. the duchy setup and "looking good").


Specifically, the breakup is:

- Kyushu (13). Contains the Kyushu region (minus Okinawa; that's of course the Kingdom of Ryukyu) and also corresponds to the Saikaido region.

- San'yodo and San'indo (17). This also roughly corresponds with the Chugoku region, plus a small part of the Kansai region.

- Kinai and Nankaido (17). This contains the entirety of Shikoku and the majority of the Kansai region.

- Chubu and Owari (21). This is the Chubu region (more or less) plus the duchy of Owari (in the Kansai region).

- Tohoku and Kanto (17). Exactly what it says on the tin.
 
Development Diary 36: Regents and Shoguns

Silversweeeper

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Development diary 36 - Regents and Shoguns

It is time to let a couple of cats out of the proverbial bag, since some things have progressed far enough that I'm reasonably confident that they'll be part of the next version. One of these features has been hinted at a little for a while, while the other hasn't really been hinted at.

ck2_5.png

While there has been an Emperor (Tenno) of Japan since at least December 5, 539 (the start of Emperor Kinmei), and possibly for over a thousand years before that date (even if those rulers aren't historically verifiable), the de facto ruler of Japan has at times not been the de jure ruler. For most of the time between 858 and 1867 (the Meiji Restoration) the Sessho/Kampaku (Regent) exercised quite a bit of power over the Tenno and the realm, with the position being held by the Fujiwara clan or its cadet branches (treated as separate dynasties in CK2).

ck2_7.png


Following the Genpei War (1180-1185), things of course got a bit more complicated than just "The Regent rules for the Tenno", since the Kamakura Shogunate was created as a result of that war and the Regent's power waned since the Tenno's power waned as the Shogun handled most non-ceremonial affairs of state. As if that wasn't enough, the Hojo clan became the de facto rulers of the Shogunate through their position as Shikken (Regent) from 1199, and even that office eventually became subordinate to the Tokuso. There was also the brief Kenmu Restoration (1333-1336) and the regent-less (for the Shogun) Ashikaga Shogunate (and the Tokugawa Shogunate, but that's after CK2), but I'll spare you the details there and end this brief historical overview.


Previously, the closest we've gotten to modelling this mess of figureheads and regents was giving Fujiwara Yorimichi the title of k_japan as a viceroyalty in 1066 and effectively calling it a day. As you might have noticed, the moment he dies the Tenno keeps k_japan for himself because even the AI is smart enough to know that handing it back out is a terrible idea, meaning that the regency isn't really a factor for long and that the Tenno quickly becomes the real power in Japan. This is of course rather ahistorical, and it is something that (barring unforeseen developments) should be represented better in the next version.


Becoming the Regent:

As mentioned above, there was historically a Regent during nearly all possible start dates (we'll hopefully support a few more than Stamford Bridge in the next version), but if there isn't a Regent (who has the Regent trait) there are a few different options for attempting to become the Regent, available to Shinto or Japonic Buddhist vassals of the Tenno that aren't part of his dynasty.

- You can ask nicely. This costs 1000 prestige or 500 prestige plus a Regency bloodline (the Fujiuwara bloodline shown previously is the non-generic version of it) and can only be attempted every five years. It is somewhat unlikely that this will be accepted, but it is possible that the Tenno will agree if he has certain traits (e.g. Imbecile, Content, or Slothful). He'll not dislike you for asking or consider it treasonous, so there's no real downside aside from the prestige cost.

- You can start a faction for it and issue an ultimatum, potentially having to fight a war for it. People with a Regency bloodline will generally find it easier to get support for this. Thanks to how the faction system works there can only be one of these factions at a time, and they dissolve automatically on the leader's death. You get a Regency bloodline if you win the faction war or if the ultimatum is accepted.

Additionally, if the Tenno has a regency but no Regent exists all Shinto or Japonic Buddhist vassals of the Tenno that aren't part of his dynasty, don't have an NAP with the Tenno, and that either a) are on the council, b) are one of the seven most powerful vassals in the realm, or c) are part of a Regency bloodline can start a plot to make themselves the Regent on a permanent basis. This is of course a plot and can result in imprisonment if the Tenno can get approval for that action.

Should there already be a Regent, other Shinto or Japonic Buddhist vassals that aren't part of the Tenno's dynasty (unless the Regent also is part of this dynasty somehow) can go to war with the Regent for the purpose of taking over the Regency. This costs 500 prestige. If you lose the war, the Regent imprisons you and also makes you his vassal if your tier is lower than his. White peace is impossible (no matter what the screenshot says).

ck2_10.png


Should the Regent have a regency (and thus not be the actual regent) or be a baron or courtier other Shinto or Japonic Buddhist vassals that aren't part of the Tenno's dynasty can plot to replace them. The Regent can also freely usurp the actual regent position from a baron or courtier if they previously were incapacitated.


Ending the Permanent Regency:

It seems fairly reasonable to assume that you'll not want to always have a Regent if you're playing as the Tenno, and it is normally possible to escape from it in two different ways.

- You can ask nicely. This costs 2000 prestige if your regent has a Regency bloodline and 1000 prestige otherwise and can only be attempted every five years. If your regent (the position holder, not the person with the trait) is a baron or courtier this will automatically be accepted; otherwise they get a choice. Generally this will be refused, but you could get lucky based on their traits.

- You can issue an ultimatum. This requires 2000 prestige if your regent has a Regency bloodline and 1000 prestige otherwise and cannot be attempted if you've got an NAP with the Regent. If the Regent leads the Regency Loyalists faction (he can't be schemed out of it, isn't forced out of it by having a council position (this is also true for his dynasty members), and will normally be part of it; he and his dynasty members join it instantly when someone becomes the Regent, including when you start the campaign) you have to fight everyone in this faction if he refuses, otherwise you only have to fight the Regent.

ck2_9.png



Effects of being the Regent:

The Regent has several nice things going for them:

- The Tenno's council members cannot vote to revoke titles from, imprison, banish, or execute the Regent or the Regent's dynasty unless the Regent proposes it, they're part of the dynasty in question, or they're a rival of the Regent. This is the case even if they've got the Loyalist stance.

ck2_8.png


- The Regent can transfer a lower tier vassal from the Tenno to the Regent. It costs 500 prestige to transfer a count and 1000 prestige to transfer a duke. This can be done every ten years. The Tenno cannot refuse this.

- The Regent can take a title (that isn't k_chrysanthemum_throne, c_yamashiro, or the capital (which generally will be Yamashiro)) from the Tenno. This costs 500 prestige for a county, 1000 prestige for a duchy, and 2500 prestige for a kingdom. The Tenno cannot refuse this but will get a weak pressed claim, and this can only be done once every ten years.

- The Regent can (if the holder of k_chrysanthemum_throne is male) replace the Tenno's spouse (demoting the existing one to a concubine) with a female dynasty member of his if the current spouse isn't from his dynasty, isn't pregnant, isn't the mother of the current heir, isn't the lover of the Tenno, and isn't already a dynasty member of the Regent's dynasty. This costs 500 prestige, can only be done every ten years, and there are some fairly strict requirements on the new spouse (she must be fairly young, not have a lover (unless the lover is the Tenno) or previous spouse, not have negative congenital traits, and so on). As this creates an NAP this is of course a good way to at least temporarily prevent the Tenno from trying to end the Permanent Regency.

If there is a Shogun all of the previous benefits except for the first one are deactivated for the Tenno's Regent. It is conceivable that the last one will remain a Regent feature (in which case the Shogun will lose it), since the Fujiwaras kept intermarrying with the Imperial Family historically, but we'll see.


Effects of having a Regent:

In addition to having to consider the things above there are a couple of more consequences:

- You cannot act against the Regent, as in a normal regency.

- Your council must approve of everything you want to do, regardless of what the council laws are, as in a normal regency.

- You cannot block vassal wars with a law while there is a Permanent Regency in place (save through Enforce Realm Peace). If you get a Permanent Regency and have restricted vassal wars the law will immediately change to permit both internal and external wars.

- The "Proclaim Shogunate" faction becomes available.

Some normal limits of having a regent (e.g. not being able to command troops) are also in place, but a number of things (e.g. being able to send your relatives into hiding) aren't blocked unless you'd have a regency for other reasons (e.g. being a prisoner or Incapable) or you recently (during the last ten years) failed to win a war to end the Permanent Regency.


The "Proclaim Shogunate" faction and the Shogunate in general:

If there is a Permanent Regency it is possible for vassals to seek to create a Shogunate if the Tenno holds an emperor title (which normally is the case if there isn't already a Shogun). The Proclaim Shogunate faction can be started by vassals that are Shinto or Japonic Buddhists, that are not part of the Tenno's dynasty (they should support the Tenno) or the Regent's dynasty (they should support the Regent), and that either a) are king tier, b) are duke tier, have a Shogunate bloodline, and have 1000 prestige, or c) have 5000 prestige, and the faction ceases to exist if the leader dies.

ck2_11.png


It is impossible for the Regent, the Regent's dynasty members, and the Tenno's dynasty members to join this faction, and being a councillor doesn't disqualify you (since the Tenno's council has little power due to not being able to oppose the Regent). Joining this faction makes you unable to be part of the Regency Loyalists faction unless you leave the Proclaim Shogunate Faction, since you're seeking to make the Regent less powerful.

If the faction issues an ultimatum that is accepted or successfully wins a faction war all non-baron vassals of the Tenno that aren't part of the Tenno's dynasty or the Regent's dynasty become vassals of the new Shogun (if the Regent holds one or more kingdoms they're forfeit, with the Regent getting strong inheritable claims), who usurps the empire title, and the Tenno loses all held kingdoms other than k_chrysanthemum_throne (getting strong inheritable claims). The new Shogun instantly implements Late Feudal administration, Controlled Realm Inheritance (should already be in place), Unrestricted Vassal Wars (should already be in place), Primogeniture (should already be in place), and No Viceroyalties and gets the Japanese Feudal government if he had the Confucian Bureaucracy government. The Shogun also gets a bloodline for it, if not already part of a Shogunate bloodline.

The Shogun takes the ability to take titles, take vassals, and override marriages for the Tenno from the Regent, with the same costs and effects. These abilities are only available if the Shogun doesn't have a Regent.


Regents for the Shogun and ending the Shogunate:

As mentioned previously, the Kamakura Shogunate quickly ended up de facto ruled by a Regent, which will be possible in Tianxia as well (it will, however, stop there; the Shogun's Regent won't be subordinate to someone as that'd be messy to implement). This operates almost exactly as the Permanent Regency for the Tenno, with the further restriction that the Tenno can't become the Regent for the Shogun (that'd be quite confusing, after all) or join the Shogun's Regent's Regency Loyalists faction, including how you can become the Regent, what the Regent can do, and how the Regency can be ended. It is possible for any emperor tier Shinto or Japonic Buddhist (unless Chinese Imperial; that takes precedence) to get a Permanent Regency, so if you somehow become the Shinto Emperor of Britannia you'll have to deal with this possibility.

Since the Tenno might want to regain his throne from the Shogun (or some vassals might want to get him back in power) there is also an "End Shogunate" faction, available if the Tenno is a subject of this particular empire. The Shogun's dynasty and the Shogun's Regent's dynasty (if not also the Tenno's dynasty) can't join, and joining makes you unable to be part of the Regency Loyalists faction. The Tenno cannot be blocked from this faction with a councillor position or through scheming.

If this faction achieves its objective the Tenno regains the empire and implements Imperial Administration, Primogeniture, Unrestricted Vassal Wars, Controlled Realm Inheritance, and Duchy Viceroyalties. Any ongoing Permanent Regency for both the Tenno and the ex-Shogun instantly ends, and all non-baron vassals of the ex-Shogun are transferred to the Tenno. Additionally, all kingdoms held by the ex-Shogun that aren't his new primary title are destroyed (with the ex-Shogun getting strong inheritable claims), which means that the ex-Shogun will find it somewhat hard to re-consolidate and attempt to create a new Shogunate.


As has been the case in the past it is quite likely that there won't be overly frequent dev diaries moving forward due to the majority of the work being done in the near future probably will be dedicated to updating/improving the history files, which is rather boring to look at or write about unless something major has been done.
 
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Wixelt

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Can you usurp the Tenno's Empire by normal means?

k_CT is the religious head title for Shinto, right?​
 

Silversweeeper

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Can you usurp the Tenno's Empire by normal means?

Yes. I don't think we'll restrict it overly much (various other odd usurpations can happen, after all), though we might implement special handling of some foreseeable weird situations (e.g. if you press the Tenno's brother's claim on either e_japan (or e_whatever, if something odd has happened) or k_chrysanthemum_throne he probably should get both because they're not supposed to be separated in that particular manner).

k_CT is the religious head title for Shinto, right?

Yes. However, as the Shinto religion doesn't have GHWs, excommunications, or the like it isn't terribly impressive to be the rel head.
 

Silversweeeper

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Cant wait for the next version:)

It is unfortunately going to be a while before it is ready. Just looking at rulers there's something like a third of all [769/867/936/1066]-[County] ruler combos are still to be done, and there are other things than county histories that ideally should be included in the next version that still aren't done.