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Harley1994

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I've done some touch ups of the map files to fix a number of errors and missing information and would like to offer them to you if you like the results.

The trees file was very blurry leading to issues such as cluttered mapspace in Europe and trees going off the edges of the coasts in some places.

The colour map files both lacked data for the added land and lead to inconsistencies in the way that the eastern part of the map was rendered compared the vanilla portion. So I filled in the colourmap file to fix this.

I also completely redid the colourmap_water so that the general lighting of the map is more pleasant on the eyes and makes details more distinguishable. I also added coastal highlighting to add a bit of a punch to the coastal areas and extended this to the newly added map area, and the major rivers in China and South East Asia.

The normal heightmap had a big line down where the eastern map connected to the vanilla map, leading to a lighting and texturing issue. Fixed.

None of these are game breaking, although I found the trees issue to make it quite difficult to focus on the terrain map in some places.

Here are some previews of the differences I've done.
Original
OG Map1.jpg

New
New Map1.jpg


Original
OG Map2.jpg


New
New Map2.jpg


Original
OG Map3.jpg


New
New Map3.jpg


Original
OG Map4.jpg


New
New Map4.jpg
 

Silversweeeper

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[Lots of map stuff]

At a glance, things look better, and we'd definitely be interested in looking at the files so that we can check things in more detail. The main factors deciding whether we'd be interested in using them as an official part of the mod are probably going to be how well various things on the vanilla parts of the map match vanilla -- I suspect that the trees might differ a bit (though perhaps to a tolerable extent), since I know that the dimensions for that file are... weird, and I can't really tell if there are differences caused by the other files at a glance (particularly since I've not launched CK2 without Tianxia enabled since November) -- and whether your conditions for us using your work are something we can agree to; we'd definitely be willing to list you as a contributor (unless you don't want us to), but aside from that I can't say what our position would be.
 

Harley1994

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I'm fine with you using the files, named as a contributor or not. I haven't messed with any of the resolutions and I used the vanilla trees map file as a base for Europe because as I stated earlier, I'm not sure what happened with the trees file in the mod, but it looks like there was some kind of resize algorithm or compression artifacts resulting in single pixels becoming 3 or 4 pixels blurred together side by side. I did some clean up of Asia's trees but most of the changes are to Europe.
 

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Here's the files.

I edited trees.bmp, world_normal_height.bmp, colormap.dds and colormap_water.dds
 

Attachments

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Last edited:

Silversweeeper

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ck2_17.png


As in vanilla, some starts might not be particularly enviable, and some characters might have done some bad things before the game starts...
 

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By the way what's Baegsan? Korean doesn't have final voiced stops. If it's 白山, then it should be Baeksan.
 

Silversweeeper

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By the way what's Baegsan? Korean doesn't have final voiced stops. If it's 白山, then it should be Baeksan.

I'll have to check if there's a reason for it to be the way it currently is, since I didn't add the localization in question, but it is quite possible that it is something that should be changed.
 

Silversweeeper

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ck2_18.png


A small QoL addition that hopefully will be part of the 6.0.1 bugfix patch, inspired by (and currently reusing some script and graphics from; we'll of course credit it if we use the relevant script and/or graphics on release) the "Fake Mapmodes" mod.

- Chinese yellow: China.

- Slightly different shades of yellow (exact colour not final): Chinese tributaries.

- Red: Non-owned non-tributary provinces China considers rightfully Chinese (part of the China region or de jure China AND with at castle or city holding).

- Blue: Other provinces belonging to a realm close enough to use the Grace interactions that China wants provinces from.

- Green: Provinces belonging to realms that China doesn't want provinces from that's close enough to use the Grace interactions (either inside China's normal diplo range or with at least one province along the Silk Road).

- Grey: Wastelands and provinces that don't belong to realms that can interact with China (excluding any provinces that are desired by China, in the unlikely event that there are any of those outside China's diplo range).
 

Harley1994

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I really enjoy using stuff like VIET events mod and was wondering if there are going to (or already are (Haven't played in Asia yet) be events in the same nature but tailored to Asia.
 

Silversweeeper

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I really enjoy using stuff like VIET events mod and was wondering if there are going to (or already are (Haven't played in Asia yet) be events in the same nature but tailored to Asia.

I don't think I've ever played with VIET -- the only mods I've used extensively beyond Tianxia are Geheimnisnacht and my personal "Fix everything I don't like in vanilla that I can fix and add more stuff" mods -- unless I did it way back in 2012 or 2013, so my familiarity with what any particular mod adds is rather limited.

We also haven't gotten around to adding a ton of flavour yet (though there are a few event chains and some decisions in some places, as well as a bunch of artefacts, some of which exist from the start), as we've had to devote a lot of time and energy towards things that affect playability considerably more (e.g. the map and the historical setup). However, I can say a few things about the flavour we'll add:

- As a general rule, we'll not change anything in vanilla unless it concerns our part of the map (e.g. the Silk Road, the Mongols, and basically everything concerning offmap China in JD (which we actually haven't changed that much outside of what was necessary to make it work well with China on the map)), we're fixing a bug (I've found a few -- and have bug reported them -- while going through vanilla files in order to update other things), we're adding Grace penalties (which is the thing that has caused the most file changes), or we're enabling/disabling something specific that we really want/don't want someone/some group to have access to (e.g. we've ensured that the Diwali festival won't be celebrated by Buddhists in China/Japan/Korea under normal circumstances, since it is more of an Indian thing).

- As in vanilla, our flavour will attempt to strike a balance between historical accuracy, fun (which of course is subjective), balance, and other factors. History (and possibly mythology, for some stuff) will be a source of inspiration, but we might also add things that are less historical (e.g. references to other games, movies, or books) from time to time.

- As in vanilla, supernatural (e.g. becoming immortal) and plain weird stuff (e.g. Secret Bears) will be locked behind the appropriate game rules, unless something weird is standard lunatic stuff (e.g. Glitterhoof being appointed to the council).

- While history isn't balanced and the game itself thus won't be entirely fair to everyone (e.g. China normally starts out very strong, Tamna not so much), we will make a reasonable attempt to not make specific events/decisions/etc. unreasonably over- or underpowered (e.g. we won't make the Samurai retinue twice as powerful as the Knight retinue just because we think katanas just are better than European swords (note: That's not a serious claim)).

- To the extent that I can ensure it (note: I don't have the final say about what we do, so I could be overruled on something), any events/decisions/etc. that attempt to railroad things according to history (e.g. Charlie's story) that we end up adding will be possible to disable with a game rule, with the exception of stuff that just nudges history in the right direction (e.g. crusade weights).

- While we won't be able to add the same amount of flavour for every religion or region at the same time (at least not without it slowing down future releases significantly), while some areas almost certainly will get less in the end (because some areas might be easier to create something for (e.g. it is easier to look up interesting historical events that could serve as inspiration in China than it is in Hokkaido) or might have gotten some flavour from vanilla (e.g. JD adding some stuff that we could reuse for on-map China)), and while some stuff might have to end up locked behind a DLC (e.g. a lot of the things being done for China is tied to the Grace system, which reuses a lot of script from JD, so it has been locked to JD), we intend to give everyone some flavour at some point, with the bare minimum being vanilla's bare minimum and with a reasonable attempt being made to go beyond that.

- While we will be adding more flavour than we currently have added, quality is an important consideration. We will not add stuff just to add stuff.
 

Silversweeeper

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teaser.png


Something a bit unusual is going on here...
 

Guthix

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Has it been asked yet what types of great works will exist at game start?

Also, what types have you guys considered constructable for eastern faiths and cultures?
 

Silversweeeper

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Has it been asked yet what types of great works will exist at game start?

Also, what types have you guys considered constructable for eastern faiths and cultures?

We've not given it a lot of thought yet, as it hasn't been a priority so far; Great Works dropped while we still were working on map stuff, and some other things are quite high on our priority list at the moment (e.g. more supported start dates).

I'd say it is rather unlikely that we'll add culture-specific ones, as vanilla only have a handful of those (pyramids (Coptic/Egyptian), horse statues (Horse), and amphitheatres (Roman/Greek/Italian)) and they thus are the exception rather than the rule, though some Great Works might have a religion + culture restriction (e.g. Japonic Buddhists might be permitted to use some Shinto stuff, and "Chinese enough" cultures and religions might get some shared stuff).

When it comes to religions, we'll probably let most of our pagans have access to the same stuff that vanilla pagans get (though we might perhaps have some of them construct Great Temples with different graphics, e.g. using the Buddhist one) and we'll probably add something unique (or semi-unique; it might just be a Grand Temple with a different name, since everyone except the Mazdans, the Taoists, and the Jain get one of those in vanilla) for the Taoist and Shinto religions.

When it comes to unique Great Works that are pre-built (in some starts), we'll see what we come up with. Vanilla has ten unique Great Works, so we'd probably have about five of them if the global average is supposed to be the same. I'd say that Borobudur and Angkor Wat are two rather likely candidates.

The Great Wall of China almost certain won't be added, for a number of reasons; it isn't possible to restrict movement with a Great Work, it would result in a massive increase in Great Work build cost for anyone controlling it, the wall wasn't extremely relevant during the era (the Tang, Song, and Yuan didn't really bother to even maintain it, the Liao and Jin built separate walls further north, and the Ming show up after the last start date), and figuring out something that will work better for China (which probably will get at least one unique Great Work, as it consists of more than a quarter of the provinces we've added) shouldn't be too difficult.
 

Guthix

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Thanks! Something I was really hoping to see was Nestorian and Islamic Chinese cultured characters have the ability to create stylized Cathedrals and Great Mosques like those that still exist today:
10274653036_50216c66a1_b.jpg

Chinese-style_minaret_of_the_Great_Mosque.jpg

Really makes me wish I could art good so I could help you guys make it happen.
 
Development Diary 27: Small Religion Changes and Additions

Silversweeeper

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Development Diary 27 - Small religion changes and additions

There have been a number of small changes and additions related to religions that have been made since you got 6.0.0.

Religion conversion decisions:

ck2_24.png


As in the case of the Dharmic religions, some other religions in the Far East are considered to be related closely enough to one another that it isn't particularly noteworthy to convert between them. For the small cost of 500 prestige, the following conversions will be possible if you're feudal/an MR and don't have the Zealous trait (and you have a DLC that will let you play the religion you're converting to):

- If part of the Chinese culture group, you have the option to freely convert between Buddhist, Taoist, unreformed Shenist (if there has been no Shenist reformation), and HF-Reformed Shenist that's "Chinese enough".

- If part of the Koreanic culture group, you have the option to freely convert between Buddhist, Taoist, unreformed Muist (if there has been no Muist reformation), and HF-Reformed Muist that's "Chinese enough".

- If your culture is Viet, you have the option to freely convert between Buddhist, Taoist, unreformed Thanist (if there has been no Thanist reformation), and HF-Reformed Thanist that's "Chinese enough".

Additionally, there are the previously revealed conversion options from Tengri to Taoist or Buddhist for Jurchen culture rulers and the already existing conversion options between Shinto and Buddhist for Japonic characters. Unlike vanilla's Dharmic conversions, the AI will actually use the conversion decisions from time to time.


Religion spread along the Silk Road:

ck2_23.png


As previously teased, provinces along the Silk Road will now sometimes flip to a different religion. There are a number of safeguards in place to try to keep too strange religion spread from happening -- for example, a holy site won't convert from a religion that considers it holy to a religion that doesn't, and unreformed pagan religions will not convert reformed pagan or organized religion provinces in areas that they don't have a historical reason to be present in -- but it can still sometimes lead to religions spreading to somewhat unusual places, which in theory could result in those religions getting a significant foothold somewhere if local rulers convert or if there is a religious revolt that goes well.


Holy sites:

A number of the religions in the Far East have had their holy sites adjusted:

- The Muist holy sites are now Haeseong, Lyongcheon, Jeju, Tsushima and Liaoyang. The change to Liaoyang shouldn't affect the reformation difficulty significantly.

- The Ryukyuan holy sites are now Nanzan, Hyuga, Kumano, Jeju, and Hangzhou. This already difficult reformation has become more difficult, as one of the holy sites now is under the control of China (or Wuyue in 936, which still isn't a pushover), but Ryukyu is of course supposed to be a challenging start, and we might give them something nice if they manage to pull it off (and the reformation picks work well with the nice thing).

- The Taoist and Shenist religions now have the same holy sites, which are Chengdu, Bianjing, Haeseong, Fuzhou, and Dai La. This change makes the Shenist reformation actually require a little more work than "Farm piety and build temples" even if you start as China, but it shouldn't be too difficult. It also means that Taoist MA might be a bit lower, meaning they'll be hovering around 50 % instead of the previous 60-70 %.

- The Sanamahi holy sites are now Kyaitong, Pegu, Angkor, Laksmanavati, and Lhasa. Since Tibet is a reasonably attractive expansion path (in the starts where it isn't united) for someone starting in Burma, it felt like a good idea to move a holy site to Lhasa.

- The Thanist holy sites are now Dai La, Guangzhou, Dali, Angkor, and Vijaya. This change makes the reformation a bit harder, as the Dali holy site is desired by China and the Guangzhou holy site normally is controlled by China (or Han, in 936), but the previous holy sites felt like they were much too close together.

- The Kaharingan holy sites are now Tondo, Donggala, Banjar, Kuching, and Kendal. This change puts two holy sites in Borneo itself, which makes it slightly easier to reform.

- The Melanesian holy sites are now Tondo, Donggala, Bali, Palembang, and Lamuri. This change makes it slightly easier for the southern Melanesians to reform, as there no longer is a holy site in Taipei, but since Palembang is the capital of Srivijaya it isn't particularly easy to secure that holy site, though the Kendal holy site moving to Bali should make up for it to some extent.

Shinto, Ainu, and non-Taoist vanilla holy sites are the same as in 6.0.0.


Barring any unforeseen issues, all of the above should be in the 6.0.1 bugfix patch, which you probably will be getting no later than the middle of September.
 

Keizer Harm

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- If part of the Koreanic culture group, you have the option to freely convert to a HF-Reformed Muist that's "Chinese enough".
- If your culture is Viet, you have the option to freely convert to a HF-Reformed Thanist that's "Chinese enough".
Why "Chinese enough"? Why not "Koreanic enough" or "Viet enough"? I'm not sure why I need China's approval to convert to my ancestor's religion :) Imho, I think any version of the reformed religion should do.
 

Silversweeeper

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Why "Chinese enough"? Why not "Koreanic enough" or "Viet enough"? I'm not sure why I need China's approval to convert to my ancestor's religion :) Imho, I think any version of the reformed religion should do.

We've currently not defined what "Korean enough" or "Viet enough" means (and neither Korea nor Vietnam is something we consider current priorities, so it is possible that we won't get around to it anytime soon), but "Chinese enough" is defined and is a better placeholder than leaving it entirely open (since you could reform e.g. Dogmatic-Enatic Clans-Divine Blood-Temporal Muist or Proselytizing-Bloodthirsty Gods-Daring-Hierocratic Thanist and thus have a religion that isn't even remotely similar to Buddhist or Taoist) or blocking it entirely.
 

Keizer Harm

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We've currently not defined what "Korean enough" or "Viet enough" means (and neither Korea nor Vietnam is something we consider current priorities, so it is possible that we won't get around to it anytime soon), but "Chinese enough" is defined and is a better placeholder than leaving it entirely open (since you could reform e.g. Dogmatic-Enatic Clans-Divine Blood-Temporal Muist or Proselytizing-Bloodthirsty Gods-Daring-Hierocratic Thanist and thus have a religion that isn't even remotely similar to Buddhist or Taoist) or blocking it entirely.
I personally do not agree with that. Look at it from a Viet character's perspective: sure, the head honcho may have decided that women are the superior gender, but they still worship the same old Kinh Dương Vương, share the same rituals, go to the same church, originate from the same cultural heritage. From a Viet perspective, only a few details have changed, the entire opus of mythology and oral tradition is still largely intact. That, plus the fact that the reformer is going to be a mighty important guy in Viet culture anyway (since he did conquer a lot of traditionally Viet territory in order to gain all the holy sites), should serve to make any Vietnamese person consider reformed Thanism a very valid religious option.
 

Silversweeeper

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I personally do not agree with that. Look at it from a Viet character's perspective: sure, the head honcho may have decided that women are the superior gender, but they still worship the same old Kinh Dương Vương, share the same rituals, go to the same church, originate from the same cultural heritage. From a Viet perspective, only a few details have changed, the entire opus of mythology and oral tradition is still largely intact. That, plus the fact that the reformer is going to be a mighty important guy in Viet culture anyway (since he did conquer a lot of traditionally Viet territory in order to gain all the holy sites), should serve to make any Vietnamese person consider reformed Thanism a very valid religious option.

Well, there are a few reasons I don't really feel a "Viet characters can convert to/from any Reformed Thanist" approach (or the equivalent, for other religions/cultures) would be good:

- A "Chinese enough" (or "Viet enough" subset of it; that unfortunately doesn't cover the unique Thanist Doctrine, as Ancestor Veneration (which is part of the unique Doctrine) doesn't work with Autonomous) Thanist reformation plus Viet culture is compatible with Chinese Imperial (which is and will remain Chinese) and Confucian Bureaucracy (which is inspired by China; it might be possible to give conditional access to Confucian Bureaucracy with some reformations that include Ancestor Veneration/the unique Thanist Doctrine (and possibly a few other picks that aren't "Chinese enough"), even if the requisite religious head wouldn't work well with Chinese Imperial (and I'd rather not rework everything related to that government to work with weird reformations)), as is the case for Buddhist/Taoist plus Viet culture. This means that the conversion decisions as currently implemented will result in Chinese Imperial/Confucian Bureaucracy realms that aren't homogenous when it comes to the religion, while a decision (or several) permitting it in the general case would result in (parts of) those realms swapping to governments that don't play nice with other religions and that might implement religious revokation, might demand conversion, and so on, which is the opposite of what the current decisions are intended to achieve.

- Chinese Imperial and Confucian Bureaucracy come with some trade-offs in exchange for the benefits they give you, with two of those trade-offs being a lack of holy wars and GHWs. Making it trivial (which 500 prestige likely is for anyone that's big enough to have reformed) to swap between a religion that does have access to those thing and one that doesn't would make it trivial to get the best of both worlds; for example, you would then be able to take part in a GHW (and possibly come away with territorial gains), flip to Taoist/Buddhist during the cooldown for 500 prestige to benefit from Grace stuff (if you rule China) or other benefits from Chinese Imperial/Confucian Bureaucracy, and then flip back for the next GHW. It is of course possible to convert to a crusading (or whatever; maybe you want to spend a few years raiding instead of sitting around waiting for Tributes...) faith from Taoist/Buddhist using other methods, and we're not going to disable those methods (or the ones to convert back), but I don't think making it easier is a good idea.

- There is also no vanilla precedent for a "[Cultures] convert to [related (reformed) pagan religion]" decision, and the various pagan faiths tend to play by mostly the same rules (there are a few exceptions, like some of the pagans (the Thanists are one of them) having access to Primogeniture before reformation), so a non-conditional (or much less conditional) decision for that for some or all of our religions would be rather noticeable difference from vanilla's overall treatment, and since we have a general "Don't mess with vanilla (unless strictly necessary)!" policy adding similar decisions for vanilla's pagans wouldn't be on the table (at least not as an official part of Tianxia).


You are of course free to disagree, and we're not going to mind a submod (public or not) that changes these decisions (and likely not one that changes other things, either; I can't say where we stand on everything when it comes to public submods, but I can definitely say that the conversion decisions I wrote are something that we don't really care what you do with).