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Silversweeeper

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Is there a close up map of Japan's provinces?

Ryukyu (de jure Pacific Rim):
ck2_1.png

ck2_2.png


Japan proper (de jure Japan):
ck2_3.png

ck2_4.png

ck2_5.png

ck2_6.png

ck2_7.png


Ainu/Hokkaido (part of Manchuria):
ck2_8.png

The northern part of the Kurils (also part of Kur/Chupka) and Kamchatka (currently a wasteland due to causing issues) aren't shown above, but they're also part of k_ainu.
 
Last edited:

Guthix

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What cultures will be able to adopt Chinese Imperial?

Also Imperial Tibet looks like a terrifying blob that could rival Byzantium.
 

Silversweeeper

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What cultures will be able to adopt Chinese Imperial?

Also Imperial Tibet looks like a terrifying blob that could rival Byzantium.

All cultures in the Chinese group (Han, Yue, Bai, Nakhi, Min, Yi, Qiang, Tujia, and She), as well as the Khitan, Jurchen, Mongol, Kaifeng (which currently seems entirely unused and thus might be a leftover that's getting removed) cultures, the Mon Khmer group (Khmer, Mon, Viet, and Cham), the Tai Kadai group (Thai, Lao, and Shan), the Tibetan group (Bodpa, Tangut, Zhangzhuang, Sumpa, and Bamar), Japanese culture if you're not the Tenno (irrelevant at the moment, as Shinto rulers are not eligible), the Tenno is part of your dynasty, or the Tenno is part of your realm), Ryukyuan, Koreanic group (Korean and Jeju), and Taiwanese are currently eligible, but that list might change down the line.

Religion-wise, the restrictions currently are more-or-less according to this. Things might change there as well, though, as we start fleshing out China and related things.

As mentioned in the dev diary linked above, Jade Dragon will remain a requirement for adopting Chinese Imperial except for in a few special cases (becoming China and having the proper religion, or forming Yuan/Jin and thus being a pretender), as the decision itself is a JD decision.


As for Tibet, that empire is in vanilla for the most part and has only grown by eight de jure provinces, so they'll probably not be significantly more blobby than in vanilla.
 

Silversweeeper

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Is there a close up of Southeast Asia's provinces?

I'm not sure if there were closeups of everything in the past, so here are some new screenshots:

ck2_13.png


ck2_14.png


ck2_15.png

ck2_16.png

ck2_17.png

ck2_18.png

ck2_19.png

ck2_20.png

ck2_21.png

ck2_22.png

ck2_23.png

Bonus Silk Road tweaks:
ck2_12.png
 

Attachments

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    ck2_12.png
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Silversweeeper

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"Not soon" is the best I can give you.


We've still got a lot of baronies to add/check -- by my count, 426 of 815 provinces still need to be looked at (which, at the current rate, probably will take us several months as we don't have very many people actively working on the mod) -- and there are other things we might decide to do before a release as well, such as cleaning up messy province culture distributions, tweaking the initial holding density in some areas (we've done some work there for some areas that are complete, but some areas could still use work), and adding (placeholder, most likely) characters (and possibly tweaking some borders) to make tOG/CM fully playable (I think everything outside Africa has a placeholder for those dates right now, but I'm not sure).

We might also end up doing things that are unrelated to the map/the historical setup (or might work on adding lots of start dates), though since the mod should be in a decent place before then it is quite possible that most of that will be after you get something. I'll refrain from saying exactly what we've been discussing as the next step after baronies, but there are some fairly big/noticeable things we've been discussing as part of fleshing out/improving [Redacted] and [Redacted] (which is what we'll be focusing on after the baronies are done).

Finally, as I've mentioned in the past, I don't have the final say about when we release anything. I can make some estimates (and share some of them; I'll not give you a tentative release date as that can be construed as a promise), and can tell you some things about what we need to work on before release (I'm sharing about as much as I feel I can do when it comes to that), but even if we had something I deemed releasable (which we don't) the only thing I can do about it (without overstepping my authority) is to tell LumberKing about it and see what happens, and -- to be frank -- I'd not reveal that we had a version that (I felt) was basically ready for release until I had received explicit permission to do so as I'd not want to have to go from "We'll have something to release very soon!" to "Actually, we'll not be releasing anything anytime soon!".


A few things we currently are looking for that would help us move forward a bit more quickly:

- Maps showing important historical cities (or other locations that would work as baronies), ranging from simple ones to quite detailed ones (even if that last one is a bit too modern). Detailed maps showing things from the proper time period are preferred, but maps showing the setup slightly later (say during the EU4 period) could still be somewhat useful. Also, while maps from the era technically would be nice, chances are they'd not be using the Latin alphabet (making it a lot of work to decipher them) or that they would be too distorted to be useful, so modern maps showing the historical situation might be more useful. You can safely assume we're already aware of the maps found on Wikipedia/Wikimedia.

- Lists of important cities (or whatever) that existed during the era. We can add things fairly quickly using such lists, assuming we know roughly where something is (just a list of random cities in China would be less useful than a list for a specific part of China) and can check a map for it, though it is a bit messier than if we have a map. Here, Wikipedia lists might be useful, as they're not always easy to find (the linked one was one I stumbled upon by pure chance when trying to look up when the Pagan Empire was founded).

- Population estimates and (if possible to find) population distribution. While the holding distribution in vanilla doesn't strictly match the historical population distribution, it is still a possible way to go about it (with some tweaks if things end up imbalanced as a result).

The current areas of interest are mainland Southeast Asia/Indochina, China, Korea, and eastern (as in east of vanilla) Tibet, except for the last point, where we're also interested in the other areas we've added.
 

CounterfeitDragon

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Found this map of the Tang empire, at around 680, might this be of use? It only denotes city size veeeery roughly, and 90 years before the first start date, but it might be a start. Finding population density data for the time period is extremely hard (although I've been limiting myself to China, perhaps there is more readily available data for the other regions?)
Even empire-wide estimates range from 12m people during 643/644 (for some reason?! Seriously, I couldn't find any historical reason for the population to plummet in that time... Perhaps there is something strange going on with the census data from those years...) to ~50m both before that and later, to 80m at the end of the Tang and roughly ~100m during the Song dynasty, after extensive rice cultivation in the south and empire-wide distribution made rapid growth possible.
Perhaps chinese sources would yield clearer information, but wrangling them with the help of Google translate and Pleco is even more time consuming for me.

PS:
You know, every time you say "not very many people actively working on the mod", I think to myself "So it's probably actually just Silversweeper..." ;):p
(No disrespect meant to the other developers! That's just how it sometimes comes across to me in the thread...)
 

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What do the devs think about the possible new start date for ck2 (and this mod)?
 

Silversweeeper

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Found this map of the Tang empire, at around 680, might this be of use? It only denotes city size veeeery roughly, and 90 years before the first start date, but it might be a start. Finding population density data for the time period is extremely hard (although I've been limiting myself to China, perhaps there is more readily available data for the other regions?)
Even empire-wide estimates range from 12m people during 643/644 (for some reason?! Seriously, I couldn't find any historical reason for the population to plummet in that time... Perhaps there is something strange going on with the census data from those years...) to ~50m both before that and later, to 80m at the end of the Tang and roughly ~100m during the Song dynasty, after extensive rice cultivation in the south and empire-wide distribution made rapid growth possible.
Perhaps chinese sources would yield clearer information, but wrangling them with the help of Google translate and Pleco is even more time consuming for me.

That map will probably be of some use when working on China.

I don't really expect population density maps to be feasible to find (I've been looking a bit myself without any luck), though if any are possible to find they would certainly be useful (as we'll otherwise have to improvise a lot). As for census data, I've seen some weird stuff there as well, so chances are we'll have to make do with incomplete data.

Translating things might be an option, but I know just how messy that can be (I've translated things from Chinese/Japanese/etc. and gotten something that was impossible to understand quite a few times), so English is definitely going to be preferred (or a language that'd not get (as) messed up with Google Translate).

PS:
You know, every time you say "not very many people actively working on the mod", I think to myself "So it's probably actually just Silversweeper..." ;):p
(No disrespect meant to the other developers! That's just how it sometimes comes across to me in the thread...)

It's not quite that bad, but we could definitely use more people...

What do the devs think about the possible new start date for ck2 (and this mod)?

I assume you're referring to the Arles screenshot in the most recent dev diary?

My personal take on it is that it probably will be interesting (even if I'll probably start most of my campaigns in 769 or 867 as that gives me more playtime), provided that any railroading (since my guess would be that it is an Otto the Great/Rise of the HRE start date with a Charlie-style story) is possible to nuke from orbit disable with a game rule since I don't want to have railroading in my games except for stuff like not making the crusades target unimportant kingdoms over important ones.

Unless the date is later than I suspect it to be, it would be somewhere in the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms era in China, which I think would be interesting to have, even if that means we'd have to add some stuff to make it likely that someone will consolidate China decently quickly (which is some work we'd be unlikely to need without such a start date, but not work I would hate having to do).

Of course, since we don't know for sure what we'll get (assuming we're getting something; it could hypothetically just have been a game of an ongoing save with a custom/culturally named kingdom), it is hard to say exactly what we'd end up doing, and even if we knew what we were getting I can't with 100 % certainty say exactly what the plan would be. However, I would imagine that it would be similar to our current approach:

- Stamford Bridge (1066.9.15) has the highest priority, as that's the non-DLC vanilla start date that gives people the most playtime. In the unlikely event that we get another non-DLC vanilla start date before it (start dates require quite a bit of work (even if some characters probably already exist for this one), so a DLC lock is to be expected if we get one), I would imagine that that gets higher priority, but since Stamford Bridge is more-or-less done on the top liege level (except in places where we might be able to replace placeholders with historical rulers) that shouldn't really matter.

- Dates before Stamford Bridge (CM, tOG, and possibly Otto) have priority over dates after Stamford Bridge, since they allow for more playtime, we don't need to fill in every year, and chances are we've already got some of the necessary rulers or will want them in order to have proper regnal numbers. The exact order these will be done in is uncertain at present, and a new start date might make us revise the order.

- In the unlikely event that we'd get the option to pick any date between some pre-Stamford Bridge date and Stamford Bridge, I'd imagine we'd fill in those dates before post-Stamford Bridge dates but that any dates before it would have priority (so e.g. Stamford Bridge -> tOG + CM + Otto (in some order) -> Otto-Stamford Bridge, if the last era let you pick any date).

- Dates after Stamford Bridge come last, with every border/ruler change we don't know the exact date for happening on January 1st of the correct year. It isn't certain how we'll approach these dates, but some areas will probably have correct top-level rulers throughout the area very quickly (as we've already got the rulers in the history files) while others will require more work. It is possible that we'll do it in batches while also working on other stuff (e.g. 1066-1100 + [Redacted] + [Redacted], followed by 1100-1150 + [TBD]), and it is possible that things will be released in that way as well.

- Top tier rulers and borders have priority over vassals and subrealm borders, since they're most noticeable. Unlanded family members will be handled on a case-by-case basis, along with other important unlanded courtiers. Chances are we'll do subrealms later on, and probably one country at a time rather than chronologically as it is likely that that will be easiest with the sources we might find.

- Historical rulers are preferred where we can find them, but we'll use placeholders as needed, and we will also guess a bit when it comes to the borders in areas where we can't be certain about the historical situation. You can expect more requests for top-level maps to be forthcoming once we are working on the history again, as chances are we'll want as many as possible, and it is likely we'll have to iterate on this as we'll probably get some things wrong.

- Some important historical wars may be added (e.g. various Mongol wars in China), but there are no guarantees if/when that will happen. I'd say it partially depends on whether we'd need to script in new CBs for something and whether test games show that the wars too often end in an ahistorical manner (as e.g. having Yuan successfully invade Japan nine times out of ten wouldn't be great).

- Vanilla borders, title holders, and de jures will remain unchanged unless something we've added means we've got to change something. For example, the Mongol Empire's holder and/or suzerain will probably be different because Yuan is on the map.

I can also say that I strongly doubt we'll ever add any start dates that aren't in vanilla. We might add some bookmarks (which are trivial to add, once the history files are in working order) somewhere between 1066.9.15 and 1337.1.1, but anything else would likely require considerable work when it comes to the vanilla history files as well (which isn't really in the scope of the mod) and would have a much lower priority than fleshing out the parts of the map that we've added.
 

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ck2_2.png


Just a little teaser. Or four.
 
Development Diary 22: The Present State of Tianxia and Current Plans for the Future

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Development Diary 22 - The present state of Tianxia and current plans for the future

First things first: The plans listed in this dev diary are not set in stone, and things may change to a greater or lesser extent.

With that out of the way, let's get this started.


It has been quite a while since the last dev diary (though there's been some non-dev diary updates since then), but we've not had a lot of interesting things to show you as most of the work has been going into adding baronies and doing other map-related stuff that's not overly interesting. However, right now there is some stuff that's possible to show you, and some stuff that's possible to talk about.

ck2_8.png


At the time of the last dev diary, we still lacked a lot of the historical setup in 1066, the positions were a mess, and there were other issues that were preventing us from even sharing the mod with the testers. Those issues have been dealt with, and the mod is being tested a bit at the moment (even if the version the testers have is lagging slightly behind what I'm about to show here), with various bugs being fixed and feedback being taken into consideration (and acted upon if we find it reasonable).

The version that the testers have -- and the version that we've got internally -- isn't really in a state that would be possible to release. Sure, the mod runs fine and there aren't any huge issues that prevent the mod from being playable (e.g. an instant CTD when loading in), but some areas need a good amount of work -- particularly in the form of baronies being added -- before we have something that we feel satisfied enough with to release.

As of right now, the following things are considered to be essential for the next public release:

- The Stamford Bridge bookmark is filled in, at least with placeholder rulers. This is done.

- The tech level everywhere is sensible for the Stamford Bridge start. This still needs work, but it will be relatively easy to fix.

- The mod is compatible with the latest vanilla patch. This is currently the case, but the 3.1.1 patch will create some extra work (as will pretty much every future patch).

- There are no known bugs or issues that we consider to be severe enough to warrant a quick fix. Pretty much every version we've given to the testers has resulted in something having to be fixed, but these things have generally been fairly small things, so though there might be more issues discovered in the future we don't appear to have any huge issues at present.

- The Silk Road and Trans-Saharan Trade Route are satisfactory. This is largely dependent on the feedback we get from the testers. You can see the tweaks to the vanilla Silk Road below.

ck2_11.png


- The province layout, impassable mountain ranges, and adjacencies (strait crossings, etc.) are good. This is largely dependent on the feedback we get and whether we discover that we need to tweak something on our own, but I'd currently say we're decently close to being done there.

- All counties in the game have seven reasonable baronies defined in the relevant landed_titles file (to account for Prosperity). This is still being worked on, though some areas are done unless the testers find something that needs to be changed.

- All provinces in the game have a sensible culture and religion, a sensible initial government group, a sensible number of starting potential holdings, and a sensible number of initial holdings, all of it for the Stamford Bridge bookmark. This is very dependent on the previous point and on the feedback we get from the testers, and it is possible that something here will require work after release as we don't actually expect the testers to be able to spot everything here.

It is possible that something will be added to the above list, most likely from the list after the spoiler. There might also be some minor stuff done that's not on either list.


With that said, there's obviously the question of how far we've gotten in different areas when it comes to adding baronies, since that's a big thing that's holding back release. As the mod is quite big, you'll find that information in the spoiler below, along with some other stuff. If you're only interested in the non-map stuff, you'll want to check the "Japan and Ainu", "Vietnam", and "China, Korea, and Tibet" sections, and potentially also the "Taiwan and Ryukyu" and "Mongolia and Manchuria" sections.

West/Central Africa:
ck2_9.png


All provinces in the area have seven baronies defined.

ck2_10.png


The Trans-Sahara Trade Route has been slightly expanded to the south of vanilla.

East Africa:
ck2_12.png


All of the provinces in the area have seven baronies defined. The coastal provinces have also been changed to be feudal at the start.

Sumatra, Malaya, and nearby islands:
ck2_15.png

All provinces in the relevant area have seven baronies defined. There have been a few minor de jure tweaks in the area, a bunch of the small islands now start out tribal, and the strait crossings have been adjusted a bit.

Java, Borneo, and Sulawesi:
ck2_17.png

All the provinces in the area have seven baronies defined.

ck2_18.png

ck2_19.png

A number of the provinces in Borneo that used to be feudal are now tribal, the religion setup has changed a bit, Borneo is now entirely Dayak culture, and there's a new strait crossing between Borneo and Sulawesi.

The Philippines:
ck2_20.png

All the provinces in the area have seven baronies defined.

ck2_21.png

ck2_22.png

Some previously feudal areas have become tribal, and the religion setup has changed a bit.

Taiwan and Ryukyu:
ck2_23.png

All provinces in the area (which does not include the part of mainland China that's shown in the screenshot) have seven baronies defined. Additionally, Taiwan has been changed to be tribal, and it is now possible for the Ryukyuan religion to reform in a fashion giving it access to Confucian Bureaucracy and potentially Chinese Imperial, which also is possible with Ryukyuan culture and Taoist/Buddhist religion (or the pagan religions that were mentioned as being able to get Confucian Bureaucracy in the previous dev diary). Note that it isn't possible to use either of the unique Ryukyuan Doctrines and the Confucian Principles Doctrine at the same time, as the former two contain some stuff that's not suitable to combine with the latter.

Japan and Ainu:
ck2_25.png

ck2_27.png


All the provinces in the area have seven baronies defined.

ck2_29.png

As previously teased, there's a new government type for the Tenno (its exact features are subject to change). Also, Japanese/Ainu/Ryukyuan vassals of the Tenno currently use Confucian Bureaucracy if Shinto or Buddhist, or vanilla Feudal if not (except for Buddhist Ryukyuans), which may or may not change.

The Khmer Empire:
ck2_30.png

All the provinces in the de jure (which doesn't include Champa or Annam) have seven baronies defined.

Burma:
ck2_31.png

All the provinces in the de jure that aren't part of Dali (the brown Song tributary) have seven baronies defined. The province layout in the area has also changed a bit, and the province of Batang has been merged into vanilla's Lhoyu because some of Lhoyu's baronies were in Batang.

Vietnam:
ck2_32.png

Vietnam still needs a bunch of new baronies, and also needs to have its current baronies checked.

ck2_33.png

Viet culture, coupled with Taoist/Buddhist religion, unreformed Thanist/Shenist/Muist religion, or HF-reformed Thanist/Shenist/Muist/Ryukyuan religion with specific features (see the previous dev diary) now results in the Confucian Bureaucracy government being used.

China, Korea, and Tibet:
ck2_35.png

All of the provinces in the area (excluding vanilla Tibet and anything not in the de jures above) still need to have a bunch of baronies added.

ck2_36.png

As previously teased, Chinese Imperial empires now have some extra council members if Conclave and Jade Dragon are active and the council is empowered. For each law in the council's favour (except for Succession Voting, which shouldn't be used by Chinese Imperial empires), an extra Council Eunuch is added. They tend to be Pragmatists, but can also have other stances.

Council Eunuch seats will automatically be filled at the start of the game and roughly once every year for the AI if it hasn't filled a vacant seat (as it otherwise would have an empty spot voting against everything), with the player having a decision to fill vacant seats if they don't want to manually assign them. There's currently a 50 % chance of picking a valid eunuch in your court (which could be a eunuch sent using the "Offer Eunuch" Grace interaction) if any exist, with a new eunuch otherwise being generated out of thin air in a fashion that should occasionally result in some eunuchs "born" in a foreign realm.

Additionally, all council members and designated regents for Confucian Bureaucracy and Chinese Imperial realms are now required to be decently well educated, meaning they need 10+ Learning.

The above will probably change a bit as China is fleshed out.

ck2_38.png

As previously teased, Korean and Jeju culture now results in Confucian Bureaucracy when combined with a religion that allows it.

Mongolia and Manchuria:
ck2_39.png

All provinces in the relevant area have seven baronies defined.

ck2_40.png

ck2_42.png
ck2_41.png


The duchies in the area have been changed a bit (with Bukgye moving into Goryeo), and there's a new Empire of Manchuria (helping with the issue with Tartaria being too large and Ainu being eaten by Japan very quickly). Additionally, most of de jure Balhae is currently feudal, which results in Jin starting as feudal. At present, Jurchen culture uses vanilla Feudal, but they might be changed to use Confucian Bureaucracy if they've got a reasonable religion.

In total, 325 counties still need significant work when it comes to the baronies, about 40.0 % of the total added.


After the next public version is released, bugfixing and compatibility (as we get more vanilla patches) will be two big priorities that always will be at the top, but we'll also be working on some other stuff. As things currently stand, the priorities there will probably be the following (not necessarily in order):

- Cleanup/polishing/rebalancing of various existing additions. While we'll try to get things polished in time, it is possible that there will be some stuff that still needs work when the essentials get done, and we might make the assumption that you'd rather have a slightly unpolished update quickly than further delays.

- Filling in top lieges for more start dates, particularly pre-Stamford Bridge bookmarks. As things currently stand, 867 and 769 are in a decent spot, but they still need some work, and signs are pointing towards another early vanilla start (probably in or around 936, based on the information we have) coming at some point in the not-too-distant future.

- Adding various basic cultural/religious features that we've not added yet, e.g. cultural building and retinues, holy orders, and possibly Warrior Lodges for our pagans (if we feel that that society is fitting for some pagan religion we've added; we'll not add one for everyone just because vanilla did it for all non-Aztecs).

- More stuff for Japan (and the Shinto religion). We'd like to add some more mechanics to better model the historical situation there (which will have to be a balancing act between what is accurate, what is enjoyable (which of course is subjective), and what is possible to implement), as well as possibly some society (right now, a Monastic Order-style society seems most likely), more dynasties, more historical rulers (and characters in general), a few bloodlines, and probably various other fun things we come up with.

- More stuff for China (and the Shenist and Taoist religions). Some tentative plans include expanding upon the JD kowtow stuff to involve vassals in China a lot more, implementing various foreign policies (whether vanilla's Isolationist/Open/Expansionist or something a bit different), opening up a bunch of the Grace interactions for vassals in China, adding different tiers to tributaries of China (with a higher Grace gain for the higher tiers but with China being able to interfere in your realm a lot more/demand more from you at those tiers (possibly up to demanding vassalization if you're at the highest tier and nearby)), some kind of feast event chain (right now, it is leaning towards a Lunar New Year celebration), a decision to send out a Treasure Fleet (with vassals potentially taking part in the expedition, and foreign realms in the relevant areas being affected in one way or another depending on various factors), possibly some improvements to the government system, possibly some new society, possibly some bloodlines, more historical rulers/characters where we can add them, and probably some other stuff we think of down the line.

It is possible that we'll do something for some area not mentioned above, as everything we've added outside Africa and Tibet could use more unique stuff, but China and Japan will be the initial focus areas.


To re-state a very important point: The plans listed in this dev diary are not set in stone, and things may change to a greater or lesser extent.

That said, feel free to ask about the above.

Also: Ignore the attachments; they're nothing you won't see elsewhere in the post.
 

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Warial

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Could you lift a bit the veil of secrect and talk about what's going on with Liao? I'm guessing you guys decided to have Jurchens, Mongols etc. portrayed as separate Khanates under tributary status of Liao, which is a solution I very much agree with. Though, I've trouble figuring out how did you split them up.

Brown is of course Jurchens, Eastern Grey must be the Khitan proper, Western Grey I've no idea, Southern Grey probably Onguds? (why do they own Ordos?), and Mongolia blue is probably vanilla.
 

Silversweeeper

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Could you lift a bit the veil of secrect and talk about what's going on with Liao? I'm guessing you guys decided to have Jurchens, Mongols etc. portrayed as separate Khanates under tributary status of Liao, which is a solution I very much agree with. Though, I've trouble figuring out how did you split them up.

Brown is of course Jurchens, Eastern Grey must be the Khitan proper, Western Grey I've no idea, Southern Grey probably Onguds? (why do they own Ordos?), and Mongolia blue is probably vanilla.

The area is rather placeholdery at the moment, and I didn't do any work there other than attempt to restore what we had prior to the map rework, so I can't say much about why things originally were split this way.

- Light blue: Vanilla Liao (Buddhist Khitan) under Hongji Liao. Nomadic. They'll almost certainly not be changed except to possibly give them more stuff, because vanilla takes precedence in this case.
- Brown: (Jurchen) Jin, initially ruled by Wugunai (Jingzu) Wanyan, father of Helibo (Shizu) and grandfather of Aguda (Taizu). Currently Feudal, though they might become Tribal or Confucian Bureaucracy, depending on a few different factors.
- Grey next to Jin: Tengri Mongols under Temur-Bagatur Yesun Tataar. Nomadic.
- Grey next to Liao: Nestorian Mongols under Markus-Buyruk Kereid (who is a historical ruler, as best I can tell). Nomadic
- Grey next to Xi-Xia: Nestorian Mongols under Khenchbish Ongud. Nomadic. I'm not 100 % sure why they hold Ordos, and I've been considering turning Ordos-Alxa-Bayan Nur into (tribal) vassals of Xi-Xia (with the Onguds perhaps getting some provinces from the other tributaries), but I need to try to find more/better maps before I can decide what will be best.
- Yellow next to Song/Korea: Han Chinese Hebeixi under Chén Guocai (pretty sure he's fictional). Confucian Bureaucracy.