Keizer Harm

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Bön currently isn't reformable (I'm aware that's changing) and doesn't start in as good a position to reform (if it was on the table) since they're missing a bunch of holy sites. I'll grant that it probably will be fairly straightforward for them to reform in HF if you start as Tibet in 769 (the AI will probably still mess things up horribly unless it has been taught to try to go for holy sites), but the situation isn't entirely similar.
I suppose, but is the goal to make it easy for the AI to reform? Pagan reformations are rare enough in vanilla, so it would be no flaw that the AI will only manage it once every ~15 games, IMHO. That's about the percentage of Suomonesko reformations I come across (Germanic and Romuva reformations being the most common, and Tengri the least).
However, the reformation "decision" itself isn't in script and is instead governed by a few defines that are the same for all pagans.
OK, that's new to me. Then, I have one bright idea. How about this as a work-around. Restrict every feature of a specific category (e.g. Leadership, since it's only 4) for a Shinto reformer that doesn't meet condition X. I am quite sure that you will be unable to reform without picking a leadership category, so doing that would have the same effect as restricting the reformation itself. One only needs to find a place to add explanation text.
but the graphics for a certain interface might still be DLC-locked
I am a bit confused by this statement. Is your goal to make Shinto playable without The Old Gods, or not?
would force us to define explicit intermarriages between the Shinto religion and all pagans we'd like to allow them to marry (which, granted, is trivial)
Which lots of vanilla religions already do:
Code:
    waldensian = {
        graphical_culture = westerngfx
        alternate_start = { has_alternate_start_parameter = { key = religion value = full_random } }

        icon = 1
        heresy_icon = 6
        
        color = { 0.4 0.4 0.7 }
        parent = catholic
        
        crusade_name = CRUSADE

        can_retire_to_monastery = yes
        priests_can_inherit = no
        
        religious_clothing_head = 0
        religious_clothing_priest = 1
        
        intermarry = catholic
        intermarry = orthodox
        intermarry = miaphysite
        intermarry = nestorian

        intermarry = cathar
        intermarry = fraticelli
        intermarry = lollard
        intermarry = monophysite
        intermarry = bogomilist
        intermarry = monothelite
        intermarry = iconoclast
        intermarry = paulician
        intermarry = messalian
    }
It'd probably be more correct too: why allow Shinto to marry African pagans?
It would also open up the obvious question of "Why don't you make the other Tianxia pagans non-pagans (and lock some stuff to tOG/HF) and make all Taoists Confucans (while keeping their JD stuff JD-locked) so that the Shinto religion isn't the only non-DLC Tianxia religion?", which is a can of worms I'd prefer not to open.
While I would in general see such a discussion as one worth having. Not a high-priority one, of course (content generation takes precedence over fuddling with old stuff).
You can't currently lock new groups to a DLC, no, and moving something locked into a new group (or into the Christian group, which always is unlocked) breaks the lock. I checked this after JD when we were considering keeping Tianxia's Daotic group around and the RoI/JD lock broke for Taoists as soon as they were outside indian_group. You also cannot define custom unlocks (or locks) inside a group (which was one of the things that prevented us from simply putting our Daotic religions into indian_group and having those unlocked with JD).
Argh... That's unexpected.
Still, here's one potential work-around. Upon starting a game with a religion you shouldn't be able to play as, you get an event: "You are not allowed to play this religion without DLC X!". You are able to close that event, but then, a hidden event gets triggered, and that event calls itself in the immediate block. That will go into an infinite loop and crash the game. Essentially, that religion will be rendered completely unplayable, and you will be informed when it happens (and if you convert by accident, you will still have the ability to console-convert back before the game crashes, which said pop-up event can explain.
if you e.g. wanted to make a bunch pagan_group events that aren't locked to some specific subgroup available for a new religion in a separate group if you have the proper DLC for them you'd need to move from the more efficient pre_trigger "has_dlc = "The Old Gods" " to a regular trigger with an OR block
But how many of those events will there actually be? How pagan is Shinto, exactly? How many features will it share with the vanilla pagan religions? How many such events will there be? That is why I am not proposing moving every single Tianxia pagan religion outside pagans - only the ones that don't feel like they really should be in the same box as Tengri and Germanic, and merely got moved there out of convenience.
 

Silversweeeper

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I suppose, but is the goal to make it easy for the AI to reform? Pagan reformations are rare enough in vanilla, so it would be no flaw that the AI will only manage it once every ~15 games, IMHO. That's about the percentage of Suomonesko reformations I come across (Germanic and Romuva reformations being the most common, and Tengri the least).

I don't think that easy reformation should be a goal (though teaching a Zealous/Ambitious/etc. AI character to target holy sites and the like would be a good idea, in my opinion), but in the case of the Shinto faith they're currently sitting in a position where they pretty much always would reform if we left the holy sites as they currently are, would probably reform if the holy sites were scattered inside e_japan (since those counties can be de jure-warred), and (barring any CB changes, which, as mentioned, creates potential issues elsewhere) basically never would reform outside of player intervention if some of the holy sites were elsewhere as they'd quickly run out of ways (other than temple construction, which the AI won't prioritize) to get MA high enough to reform.

OK, that's new to me. Then, I have one bright idea. How about this as a work-around. Restrict every feature of a specific category (e.g. Leadership, since it's only 4) for a Shinto reformer that doesn't meet condition X. I am quite sure that you will be unable to reform without picking a leadership category, so doing that would have the same effect as restricting the reformation itself. One only needs to find a place to add explanation text.

That might be possible (though it might not be possible for a feature to have a null state since the expectation is that there always is at least one choice; it really depends on how that's been handled behind the scenes), but we don't know how non-HF reformations will interact with the reformation screen (will they see the screen but not get to make a choice as to which features they pick, or will it be bypassed alltogether with the reformed religion just keeping the pre-defined default, and we'd need the Shinto reformation (if we were to have one) to work both with and without HF. It also would mean redoing a bunch of things to have unreformed Shinto in the game again (or modify the current Shinto religion to be unreformed and add a reformed version) and have that be the starting religion and add exceptions to a bunch of normal rules about what can and cannot be done before reformation, so it is a bunch of extra work to re-add something we recently decided we didn't want in the game.

I am a bit confused by this statement. Is your goal to make Shinto playable without The Old Gods, or not?

To my knowledge, we have no intention to make them a non-tOG/-HF religion, particularly as it would open the aforementioned can of worms regarding making other Tianxia religions playable without those DLCs.

Which lots of vanilla religions already do:
Code:
    waldensian = {
        graphical_culture = westerngfx
        alternate_start = { has_alternate_start_parameter = { key = religion value = full_random } }

        icon = 1
        heresy_icon = 6
      
        color = { 0.4 0.4 0.7 }
        parent = catholic
      
        crusade_name = CRUSADE

        can_retire_to_monastery = yes
        priests_can_inherit = no
      
        religious_clothing_head = 0
        religious_clothing_priest = 1
      
        intermarry = catholic
        intermarry = orthodox
        intermarry = miaphysite
        intermarry = nestorian

        intermarry = cathar
        intermarry = fraticelli
        intermarry = lollard
        intermarry = monophysite
        intermarry = bogomilist
        intermarry = monothelite
        intermarry = iconoclast
        intermarry = paulician
        intermarry = messalian
    }
It'd probably be more correct too: why allow Shinto to marry African pagans?

I did mention how trivial it would be, yes, but it still is a bit of work that's otherwise unnecessary.

As for Shinto-African intermarriage, that's consistent with vanilla's intermarriage between disparate subgroups (which I'm not a big fan of myself at times, but still...), would normally be blocked by the diplo distance, and the real Shinto religion has at times played nice with other religions (though of course not always) and I would thus say they would necessarily rule out intermarriages if the two religions got close enough to interact (though perhaps it wouldn't be exceedingly common or involve people at the very top).

Argh... That's unexpected.
Still, here's one potential work-around. Upon starting a game with a religion you shouldn't be able to play as, you get an event: "You are not allowed to play this religion without DLC X!". You are able to close that event, but then, a hidden event gets triggered, and that event calls itself in the immediate block. That will go into an infinite loop and crash the game. Essentially, that religion will be rendered completely unplayable, and you will be informed when it happens (and if you convert by accident, you will still have the ability to console-convert back before the game crashes, which said pop-up event can explain.

I am very opposed to the idea of replacing a bunch of existing DLC-blockers implemented in accordance with PDS's standard with an infinite loop that would be very straightforward to disable even if you have never done any CK2 modding before, and I will to the extent that I'm able ensure that we do not add something like that in Tianxia. Sorry, but I'd rather not risk the potential consequences.

But how many of those events will there actually be? How pagan is Shinto, exactly? How many features will it share with the vanilla pagan religions? How many such events will there be? That is why I am not proposing moving every single Tianxia pagan religion outside pagans - only the ones that don't feel like they really should be in the same box as Tengri and Germanic, and merely got moved there out of convenience.

I believe that nearly all of the pagan_group stuff in vanilla that isn't locked to a certain subset in vanilla currently is available for all of our pagans (and thus for the Shinto religion), and there could well be things we add that are generic enough that we might just feel that pagan_group (or pagan_group with a few exceptions) is a good enough check for something. I did a quick check of all pagan_group references a while back and don't think I found something that I really felt more out of place for our pagan religions than it might be for some vanilla pagans. I suppose there might be things we eventually decide to remove for some of our religions, particularly when we've added flavour of our own, but if that is the exception rather than the rule then we'd be forced to use the more expensive trigger in more places and might find it concerning.

As for the Tianxia pagans supposedly being moved to pagan_group, they've been part of pagan_group since forever (or at least as far back as the GitHub branches lets me check, which is Jan 16 2016), and lumping a bunch of rather different religions together in the group is nothing new.
 
Last edited:

Ksiendzu

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I think, pre-reformed Shinto religion is good solution. It is like it was reformed long ago i we start when it is done. "Shinto reformation" sounds bad for me.
Alternatively, you can add Shinto to Indian group. Maybe we can avoid buddhist-shinto Holy Wars this way. I don't know if it can works.
 
Last edited:

Keizer Harm

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I don't think that easy reformation should be a goal ([...], but in the case of the Shinto faith they're currently sitting in a position where they pretty much always would reform if we left the holy sites as they currently are, would probably reform if the holy sites were scattered inside e_japan [...], and [...] basically never would reform outside of player intervention if some of the holy sites were elsewhere as they'd quickly run out of ways [...] to get MA high enough to reform ver.
To be fair: that is the vanilla situation for a number of religions. How often have you seen a Tengri reformation, honestly? Only the player really manages to make enough conquests in the right places to reform the religion, and that may be acceptable for other religions too - unlike Romuva, whose core territory could be conquered in a single Crusade.
That might be possible (though it might not be possible for a feature to have a null state since the expectation is that there always is at least one choice; it really depends on how that's been handled behind the scenes)
Looking at this image:
index.php
There is a "Clear" button. So it seems credible to me that there is a NULL state - unless it resets the features to default. I suppose we'll have to wait for release date to figure it out, but it's still good to keep that in mind.
ut we don't know how non-HF reformations will interact with the reformation screen (will they see the screen but not get to make a choice as to which features they pick, or will it be bypassed alltogether with the reformed religion just keeping the pre-defined default, and we'd need the Shinto reformation (if we were to have one) to work both with and without HF.
True enough.
One other way would be to make an event that automatically makes the holy site baronies independent should they get a liege - and require the completion of condition X to vassalize them. That would work for both with and without HF.
It also would mean redoing a bunch of things to have unreformed Shinto in the game again
Yes, but if people began playing pagans more after HF and realised that pagan reformation was extremely fun, maybe priorities would change? :D It's good to keep possibilities in mind. (and I personally would probably mod mainstream religions to be reformable as well, if I were able to. When you have conquered Christendom and vassalized the pope - why not declare that human sacrifice should be a thing? Henry VIII managed to change his religion with much less territory :p ).
and I would thus say they would necessarily rule out intermarriages if the two religions got close enough to interact (though perhaps it wouldn't be exceedingly common or involve people at the very top).
Just out of curiosity: did they historically intermarry with Ainu or Tengri pagans, who were relatively close to them? And do they in your mod?
I am very opposed to the idea of replacing a bunch of existing DLC-blockers implemented in accordance with PDS's standard with an infinite loop that would be very straightforward to disable even if you have never done any CK2 modding before, and I will to the extent that I'm able ensure that we do not add something like that in Tianxia. Sorry, but I'd rather not risk the potential consequences.
A somewhat harsher reaction than I had expected, but fair enough. I do think that such an event, if hidden somewhere in a non-obvious location in the script (and perhaps occurring multiple times) would in fact be safer than P'dox's standard one-line "has_dlc" trigger that anyone can in fact simply disable without modding knowledge by removing it.
I suppose there might be things we eventually decide to remove for some of our religions, particularly when we've added flavour of our own, but if that is the exception rather than the rule then we'd be forced to use the more expensive trigger in more places and might find it concerning.
My point was, how pagan is Shinto? To Christians, any non-Abrahamic religion is pagan, of course. But when I think of pagans, I think of people sitting around campfires wearing animal skins and living in huts. That honestly does not match with my picture of Shintoism, which seems more comparable to Zoroastrianism to me.
As for the Tianxia pagans supposedly being moved to pagan_group
I did not mean to imply that they were being moved there. I was talking that I was by no means advocating/proposing moving other pagans who do sit around campfires wearing animal skins outside the pagan_group.
I think, pre-reformed Shinto religion is good solution. It is like it was reformed long ago i we start when it is done. "Shinto reformation" sounds bad for me.
Which works for me, in theory. What I don't want is for them to be in the position Vanilla Bön is right now. That is, eternal restriction from converting others to your faith. I have not played with a pre-reformed religion before, so I don't know how they work with converting others.

So devs of Tianxia: reformable, unreformable, pagan, non-pagan; whatever you do, don't repeat Paradox's mistake and put them in the Bön position right now. It derailed my entire campaign when I found out that Bön inherently cannot function because nobody will be of your religion once you are an empire.
 

Silversweeeper

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To be fair: that is the vanilla situation for a number of religions. How often have you seen a Tengri reformation, honestly? Only the player really manages to make enough conquests in the right places to reform the religion, and that may be acceptable for other religions too - unlike Romuva, whose core territory could be conquered in a single Crusade.

I saw a couple of Tengri reformations back before HL, which screwed over the Tengri in particular since nomads will just abandon their faith every generation or so because of some mercenary becoming Khagan after converting to whatever when hired and there's no convenient "Convert to Tengri" decision for them to take. Overall, I can agree that pagan reformations should be somewhat rare, but smarter AI CB use to help it reform (and to help it in many other places too, e.g. restoring the Roman Empire) would be good so that the AI doesn't shoot itself in the foot on the finish line.

All non-Shinto pagans certainly have the CBs for taking the necessary land, however, while the Shinto would (as things currently stand; as mentioned, we've disabled Pagan Subjugation for them vs. non-Shinto pagans due to unintended behaviour) be stuck in e_japan pre-reformation (and only the holder of e_japan is able to attack a bunch of provinces since other rulers obviously lack de jure CBs for those) unless they manage to inherit a claim (or tilte, but that's unlikely) since holy wars obviously would be disabled if they were made unreformed, so I would say that the situation would be different for them.

Looking at this image:
index.php
There is a "Clear" button. So it seems credible to me that there is a NULL state - unless it resets the features to default. I suppose we'll have to wait for release date to figure it out, but it's still good to keep that in mind.

You might be on to something there, but we'll have to see what happens and still have to consider the non-HF interactions, and, as mentioned, we recently decided that the distinction between reformed and unreformed Shinto was unwanted, so we might not want to change things even if it is possible.

True enough.
One other way would be to make an event that automatically makes the holy site baronies independent should they get a liege - and require the completion of condition X to vassalize them. That would work for both with and without HF.

That would mess up the AI's behaviour because we can't mod the "Offer Vassalization" interaction and it probably would attempt to vassalize those titles ASAP after the barony goes independent, and since there's no on_new_liege on_action it would be rather messy to deal with all ways that a holy site could end up under a Shinto ruler, and (though the game will already have deviated very far from history if that point is reached) if a nomad somehow pillages a Shinto holy site it stops being attached to a specific barony and the situation gets even messier since it becomes attached to the county and could be attached to a completely different barony down the line depending on when the temple holding is built.

Yes, but if people began playing pagans more after HF and realised that pagan reformation was extremely fun, maybe priorities would change? :D It's good to keep possibilities in mind. (and I personally would probably mod mainstream religions to be reformable as well, if I were able to. When you have conquered Christendom and vassalized the pope - why not declare that human sacrifice should be a thing? Henry VIII managed to change his religion with much less territory :p ).

As I mentioned in the original post about HF plans, we might add something similar to a reformation to the Shinto faith without actually having a reformation, so they might not be stuck with all of the features we give them from the start (though we might limit some choices severely), but when looking at the things that would be needed to prevent certain reformations for one exception it doesn't look particularly appealing to have standard reformations.

Just out of curiosity: did they historically intermarry with Ainu or Tengri pagans, who were relatively close to them? And do they in your mod?

I don't know if there were particularly many intermarriages historically, but I'm no expert on Japanese history/the Shinto religion, and such marriages might have been far less politically expedient than other options (and the Tenno usually married (as far as the primary consort went; whether polygamy (with lots and lots of wives) or concubinage (with lots and lots of concubines) is most accurate in CK2 is something I've been thinking a bit about for some time) inside the Imperial Family or with someone from the family of the Shogun or Kampaku because they were in control).

As for intermarrying in the game, I've not really kept track, but since there are pretty much no historical female characters in the area yet outside of the Imperial Family (and that is missing lots of characters in general) and the Fujiwaras (who also have an incomplete family tree right now) and pretty much only the holders of e_japan and k_japan start out married (and only in some starts) there's not going to be a lot of intermarriage possibilities early on as things currently stand as everyone initially will scramble to marry random Lowborns.

A somewhat harsher reaction than I had expected, but fair enough. I do think that such an event, if hidden somewhere in a non-obvious location in the script (and perhaps occurring multiple times) would in fact be safer than P'dox's standard one-line "has_dlc" trigger that anyone can in fact simply disable without modding knowledge by removing it.

Religion playability is not tied to the has_dlc trigger in script, so we'd be changing a different blocker (the structure inside the religion files), and if we've done that we'd have made it trivially easy for someone to locate our on_whatever_pulse loop event and put an "always = no" in its trigger (or just commenting it out) to let them continue to play as the religion (just without any features that use a has_dlc lock). It would also require us to update all references to certain religion groups where we want to conditionally allow stuff and to do a bunch of other things to maintain functionality, so it really would be a messy option even if we did not have to worry about the DLC lock.

My point was, how pagan is Shinto? To Christians, any non-Abrahamic religion is pagan, of course. But when I think of pagans, I think of people sitting around campfires wearing animal skins and living in huts. That honestly does not match with my picture of Shintoism, which seems more comparable to Zoroastrianism to me.

I did not mean to imply that they were being moved there. I was talking that I was by no means advocating/proposing moving other pagans who do sit around campfires wearing animal skins outside the pagan_group.

Both the Zunists (who are feudal from the start and thus "civilized") and the Hellenics (which are unplayable, but still) are already in pagan_group, so the condition for being pagan is already more complex than "be uncivilized".

The Shinto religion sort of sits between the Eastern group and the pagan group when it comes to overarching features right now (HF will of course change the exact features of post-reformation pagans a bit depending on reformation, and some pre-reformation pagans might perhaps be tweaked there too):

- The Shinto religion is polytheistic (pagan, Hindu, and Taoist).

- The Shinto religion has concubines (all pagan and Eastern religions have this).

- The Shinto religion has female temple holders (Buddhist and pagan).

- The Shinto religion has heir designation (Buddhist and Taoist).

- Shinto rulers can't raid unless their government or culture provides raiding (Jain, Buddhist, Taoist, Zunist (both reformed and unreformed), and Hellenic).

- The Shinto religion has county conquests (pagan; the Buddhist single-county holy war CB is roughly similar but can go overseas in a limited fashion).

- The Shinto religion has duchy-tier holy wars for 100 piety (reformed pagan; Hindu has them for free, Buddhist pay 250 piety, all others have no duchy-tier holy wars).

- Shinto rulers can subjugate the same religion only (unreformed Aztec only; the other unreformed pagans can subjugate any other pagan and the Dharmic religions can all subjugate other Dharmics inside their own culture group).

- The Shinto religion has a rel head (reformed pagan; of course, since the Shinto religion used to be a reformed pagan religion it might originally have been added because of that).

- The Shinto religion doesn't have GHWs (Eastern and unreformed pagan).

- The Shinto religion sort-of has holy books (reformed pagan and Eastern).

- All Shinto counts and higher start feudal (which isn't a religious feature but is more common for rulers following Eastern religions than for pagan rulers) and can always feudalize (reformed pagan, Bön and Eastern).

- The Shinto religion has a Devil Worshipper cult (pagan, Hindu, and Tianxia's Taoist).

- The Shinto religion does not have a Monastic Order (pagan and Taoist).

- The Shinto religion currently lacks a holy order (unreformed pagan and Taoist; we've not gotten around to holy orders for the rest of Tianxia's pagans either, though, so this "feature" is probably an oversight).

- The Shinto religion can intermarry with with Buddhists (Eastern (because of same-group intermarriages always being permitted) and a couple of pagans).

- The Shinto religion has a harder time converting non-pagans (unreformed pagan, Bön, Jain, and Taoist; Dharmics also have trouble converting one another as a rule).

The religion is still in the process of being fleshed out and could get more stuff in either direction there, might get something like the HF warrior lodges (depending on whether a slightly tweaked warrior lodge would be sensible or not; that's impossible to tell before HF is out), might lose some pagan_group flavour, might get some indian_group flavour with RoI active (though most of that is unlikely to be fitting due to being about gurus, elephants, and the like), and so forth, so which group is the overall most fitting group for them might change. Putting the Shinto religion in their own group is rather unappealing, so Eastern or pagan (and thus locked to either tOG/HF or RoI) would seem to be the only sensible options, and since the Eastern group used to be the Dharmic group back before JD, it certainly wouldn't have made sense to put the Shinto religion there at that point (and the Taoist religion in Tianxia was part of the now removed Daotic group at that point, which also would have been unfitting), thus making it pagan by default at that point.

Which works for me, in theory. What I don't want is for them to be in the position Vanilla Bön is right now. That is, eternal restriction from converting others to your faith. I have not played with a pre-reformed religion before, so I don't know how they work with converting others.

So devs of Tianxia: reformable, unreformable, pagan, non-pagan; whatever you do, don't repeat Paradox's mistake and put them in the Bön position right now. It derailed my entire campaign when I found out that Bön inherently cannot function because nobody will be of your religion once you are an empire.

The Shinto currently has the ability to ask for conversion, much like the Bön religion has since the last patch or so, so in that area the Shinto religion isn't as restricted an an unreformed pagan would be. However, slower county conversion (of non-pagan provinces, similarly to unreformed pagan religions and the Bön, Taoist, and Jain religions (and the Buddhist and Hindu religions against other Dharmics)) is a feature that's unlikely to go away since the Shinto religion is not a proselytizing religion, and if that's a problem I suggest either not playing as a Shinto ruler or modding event 900 to remove the penalty.
 
Last edited:

Keizer Harm

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Silversweeeper

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ck2_1.png


The first small steps towards 3.0 compatibility have been taken. It is much too soon for an ETA, particularly since it is currently unclear which previously active team members have an interest in working on the mod at the moment.


If you have any ideas for custom Doctrines for Tianxia's non-Shinto pagans (Sanamhists, Shenists, Muists, Ryukyuans, Ainu, Thanists, Kaharingans, and Melanesians) and the other Features (secondary Doctrine, Nature, and Leadership) that they might be more likely to pick than others, feel free to suggest them (we already have a few ideas internally, but some of them are less well developed than others).

Going by how vanilla does it for most religions, a custom Doctrine should consist of roughly two of the standard Doctrines (see this thread for a list of them all, if you don't want to go digging) or one Doctrine with one trait (e.g. "Fleet can Navigate through Major Rivers") from one or a couple of other Doctrines or Natures and ideally be something that either is central to the unreformed religion (e.g. the Norse love going overseas to invade and plunder) or that nearby organized religions have and they could be inspired by (e.g. the Zunists get Divine Blood because they're right next to (formerly) Zoroastrian Persia), rather than being powerful without any justification whatsoever.


Other suggestions are also welcome, though unless it is something we can do very quickly it will probably not be done before the compatibility stuff even if we agree with the suggestion.


If you're interested in helping with the work on Tianxia, please contact LumberKing (PM is probably easiest, but @ should also work).
 

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ernst_earnest

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View attachment 418021

The first small steps towards 3.0 compatibility have been taken. It is much too soon for an ETA, particularly since it is currently unclear which previously active team members have an interest in working on the mod at the moment.


If you have any ideas for custom Doctrines for Tianxia's non-Shinto pagans (Sanamhists, Shenists, Muists, Ryukyuans, Ainu, Thanists, Kaharingans, and Melanesians) and the other Features (secondary Doctrine, Nature, and Leadership) that they might be more likely to pick than others, feel free to suggest them (we already have a few ideas internally, but some of them are less well developed than others).

Going by how vanilla does it for most religions, a custom Doctrine should consist of roughly two of the standard Doctrines (see this thread for a list of them all, if you don't want to go digging) or one Doctrine with one trait (e.g. "Fleet can Navigate through Major Rivers") from one or a couple of other Doctrines or Natures and ideally be something that either is central to the unreformed religion (e.g. the Norse love going overseas to invade and plunder) or that nearby organized religions have and they could be inspired by (e.g. the Zunists get Divine Blood because they're right next to (formerly) Zoroastrian Persia), rather than being powerful without any justification whatsoever.


Other suggestions are also welcome, though unless it is something we can do very quickly it will probably not be done before the compatibility stuff even if we agree with the suggestion.


If you're interested in helping with the work on Tianxia, please contact LumberKing (PM is probably easiest, but @ should also work).

I know this is probably not on your (immediate) agenda but I would help out with everything related to the Mongol Empire and the different Khanates.
 

Silversweeeper

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Is this the time to suggest a map projection/province rework? Or is it, more likely, the worst time to suggest such a thing, seeing how you seem to have just finished adapting the map? :oops:

A map projection change is not going to happen unless we suddenly find someone that is able to create a new projection (which is a lot of work since that means overhauling the heightmap and climate maps and not just the provinces) that wants to do all of that work.

We're doing a fairly major province rework (and probably also a de jure rework in some places because we're adding lots of provinces and want to try to keep de jures reasonable in size (where possible; China is likely to still be huge because it historically was)) outside of the vanilla parts of the map, though, and that's just getting started (I've started filling in sea zones) and fairly vague overall (we know roughly which areas we want to add provinces to and which ones we want to reduce a little, but don't have a conrete plan yet), so suggestions are welcome. Check the attachment for the pre-rework (and pre-3.0) province setup (I don't have any good region-specific screenshots accessible at the moment).
 

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FIorance

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A map projection change is not going to happen unless we suddenly find someone that is able to create a new projection (which is a lot of work since that means overhauling the heightmap and climate maps and not just the provinces) that wants to do all of that work.

We're doing a fairly major province rework (and probably also a de jure rework in some places because we're adding lots of provinces and want to try to keep de jures reasonable in size (where possible; China is likely to still be huge because it historically was)) outside of the vanilla parts of the map, though, and that's just getting started (I've started filling in sea zones) and fairly vague overall (we know roughly which areas we want to add provinces to and which ones we want to reduce a little, but don't have a conrete plan yet), so suggestions are welcome. Check the attachment for the pre-rework (and pre-3.0) province setup (I don't have any good region-specific screenshots accessible at the moment).
Map looking good!
 

CounterfeitDragon

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A map projection change is not going to happen unless we suddenly find someone that is able to create a new projection (which is a lot of work since that means overhauling the heightmap and climate maps and not just the provinces) that wants to do all of that work.

We're doing a fairly major province rework (and probably also a de jure rework in some places because we're adding lots of provinces and want to try to keep de jures reasonable in size (where possible; China is likely to still be huge because it historically was)) outside of the vanilla parts of the map, though, and that's just getting started (I've started filling in sea zones) and fairly vague overall (we know roughly which areas we want to add provinces to and which ones we want to reduce a little, but don't have a conrete plan yet), so suggestions are welcome. Check the attachment for the pre-rework (and pre-3.0) province setup (I don't have any good region-specific screenshots accessible at the moment).
Nice, thanks for posting that map! Pretty interesting comparing the 2.8 version to the last public one. When I last played the mod, I always felt that China was seriously lacking in province count, but I see you've started to remedy that. Though I still feel like the heartland might need some more love.

Regarding projection: I've always wondered why you weren't using Typus Orbis Terrarum. Would that lead to other problems?
The projection on the current Tianxia map always has me tilting my head to figure out where things are, when playing in the eastern part of the map. (Though that might just be my problem.)

That said, I don't want to belittle your work. Adapting the mod to the vanilla 3.0 changes must already be a lot of work, and I'm definitely hyped for the changes you've made since the release of Jade Dragon!
 

Silversweeeper

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Nice, thanks for posting that map! Pretty interesting comparing the 2.8 version to the last public one. When I last played the mod, I always felt that China was seriously lacking in province count, but I see you've started to remedy that. Though I still feel like the heartland might need some more love.

Regarding projection: I've always wondered why you weren't using Typus Orbis Terrarum. Would that lead to other problems?
The projection on the current Tianxia map always has me tilting my head to figure out where things are, when playing in the eastern part of the map. (Though that might just be my problem.)

That said, I don't want to belittle your work. Adapting the mod to the vanilla 3.0 changes must already be a lot of work, and I'm definitely hyped for the changes you've made since the release of Jade Dragon!

China is one of the areas that probably will be expanded the most, but so far our plan there essentially is "We want to expand the region significantly, and if we split provinces here, here, and here we can probably get close to the desired province density, and we can probably tweak the starting holding density and number of non-Prosperity holdings a bit to keep populated areas more powerful than less populated areas even if we add provinces to the latter". I can't really go into any specifics right now, but chances are there will be dozens of new provinces.

Using stuff from another mod mean we have to get permission from the relevant mod, which possibly might come with conditions that we don't like. The mod you mentioned also appears to have rather different map dimensions from CK2's map dimensions, which sort-of goes against the "Don't change vanilla unless necessary" rule we have. I'm familiar with the head-tilting arising from our projection, though, so it isn't just you.
 
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CounterfeitDragon

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China is one of the areas that probably will be expanded the most, but so far our plan there essentially is "We want to expand the region significantly, and if we split provinces here, here, and here we can probably get close to the desired province density, and we can probably tweak the starting holding density and number of non-Prosperity holdings a bit to keep populated areas more powerful than less populated areas even if we add provinces to the latter". I can't really go into any specifics right now, but chances are there will be dozens of new provinces.
That sounds good! Especially smart since the south becomes more populated in the later start dates due to the migration after the Jurchen invasions... So having a somewhat even distribution of provinces means shifting the number of holdings around in the later start dates (or maybe in the far future even adding an event that does this after a successful Jurchen invasion?!) could simulate that nicely. Though I guess you're working on making the earlier start dates playable first, anyway.

Using stuff from another mod mean we have to get permission from the relevant mod, which possibly might come with conditions that we don't like. The mod you mentioned also appears to have rather different map dimensions from CK2's map dimensions, which sort-of goes against the "Don't change vanilla unless necessary" rule we have. I'm familiar with the head-tilting arising from our projection, though, so it isn't just you.
The creator states on the Steam page that "You can make new mods based on this mod, as long as you give me credit for this mod.", but I suppose it's always best to check with them first.
You're of course right about the difference in dimensions. I kinda didn't think about that. I mean, one could crop the map to the desired area you're using, but the western provinces would still look rather different from vanilla.
 
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darthfanta

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Why Would You Want It To Be A DLC? DLCs Are Expensive, Mods Are Free.
Because if it was a DLC,it would have been fully supported by the game and wouldn’t be incompatible with other mods. Instead,we are going to have a mod that’s going to require a lot of rework everytime there is a dlc.Being a full dlc also means that EUIV conversion would work.
 
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ErateD8

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Because if was a DLC,it would have been fully supported by the game and wouldn’t be incompatible with other mods. Instead,we are going to have a mod that’s going to require a lot of rework everytime there is a dlc.Being a full dlc also means that EUIV conversion would work.
Fair Enough, But I Probably Wouldn't Buy A DLC For Something If I Can Do It Just As Well With A Mod If The DLC Isn't More Convenient, And I'm Not Positive, But I Believe You Can Make Mods Allowing EUIV Conversion.
 

Silversweeeper

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(This is my personal opinion and does not necessariy reflect the opinion of the Tianxia team as a whole)

Regarding the mod vs. DLC debate, there are things that modders cannot do, or at least that they'd have to do with some messy workaround, so an official DLC would possibly be able to do a bunch of things we cannot (easily) do, which could be a good thing, particularly since any added modding tools could be useful elsewhere. The CK2 team is also larger than the Tianxia team (at least when it comes to people that are actively working on something; we've got a good number of team members that haven't done anything for quite some time), meaning they probably can do more in a comparable amount of time, there's an experienced QA department that makes finding bugs (and fixing them) easier, and there's a certain expectation that there will be post-release support for a patch/DLC and that the game will continue to be available that you cannot expect from a mod (the actual consequences if we decided to stop Tianxia's development where it currently is and deleted the publicly available 2.7 version (which actually isn't even fully compatible with stuff that had been released at that date...) would be basically zero; people would probably be upset and might message us about it, but we would have no obligation to restore the mod and keep working on it).

As for the "Mods are free, DLCs are expensive" sentiment, while I don't think that modders should be able to demand money in exchange for letting you play their mod (if they choose to make it public), the work we're doing on Tianxia (and that other mod teams are doing on their mods) is entirely voluntary and being done in our free time and being shared publicly because we feel like it. I don't know exactly how much time I've spent working on Tianxia or how much time I will spend in the future, but it is not insignificant (it's definitely more than 100 hours), and given that I would have been able to spend much of that time on other things than modding (though some of that time would probably still have been spent on tweaking CK2 to my liking, because I did that before working on Tianxia due to not liking various vanilla things) I would say that the time saved more than would have more than made up for the money spent.

I also feel that the sentiment is very close to the "Mods [could] have done [something similar to] this, so it should be free" sentiment, which conveniently ignores the fact that, in a lot of cases, mods only could do those things using functionality added in with a patch (or DLC) that we mainly got because selling a DLC was an option, so chances are CK2 as a whole and many mods (including Tianxia) would have been in a considerably worse place if the devs had had to operate according to the rule of "If a mod has done something similar or it doesn't require new functionality to add this, add it for free if it is added at all" since that would have made CK2 unprofitable to continue to develop. To name one obvious example, aside from tribal holdings (which were added for free), I'm fairly certain that the CM start date (as in the political, cultural, and religious setup) would have been possible to implement with 2.1 functionality, but if it had had to be free patch material we probably would not have gotten CM at all because it takes quite a bit of work to add all the relevant characters that weren't already in the history files and to do all the other things you need to do in order to have a new start date, and regardless of your feelings on that specific DLC there would likely have been similar consequences for other features that you might not want to not have.


Of course, on the other hand, the further along we get with Tianxia's development the worse it would be for the team if there was an official DLC made covering approximately the same stuff (I can pretty much guarantee you that the CK2 team wouldn't simply take Tianxia, do some minor tweaks, test everything, and call it a day) because it would mean we've wasted a considerable amount of time on the mod. We already had to scrap our Tibeta and Bön religions due to JD adding those things, and if those things had been considerably more developed than they were it would have been rather annoying to have that work be wasted since we'd probably not be able to use most of it and wouldn't be able to get the time spent on it back.

I would personally not be upset with such a DLC (I only joined the Tianxia team when it became clear that it was pretty much guaranteed to not be happening (as in when it was revealed that JD would just have an offmap China) since I really wanted the Far East on the map and decided that I was willing to help make it happen if it wasn't happening in vanilla), and as long as I got credited for anything that I had done that (hypothetically) was added basically without modifications I would be fine with it (I'm not allowed to claim any copyright anyway according to the rules modders have to agree to when posting mods on the forum or the Steam workshop, and the devs (hypothetically) doing the equivalent of saying "Your work is pretty good, and we want it in our game" would not be unwelcome), but that might not go for everyone on the team, and if there was an official DLC covering the relevant parts of the map that did a lot of similar stuff we'd probably have to scrap most of Tianxia and reduce it to basically just flavour and perhaps minor mechanical tweaks if we decide that we really don't like how something was implemented, and it also might make people less interested in working on the mod due to wanting different things or feeling that the vanilla stuff was good enough.


Regarding the EU4 Converter, I believe it is possible to make that compatible with Tianxia, but we're going to focus on fleshing out things that actually affect normal gameplay in CK2 until we feel that we're more-or-less satisfied with that and thus the Converter will have to wait (unless someone outside the team makes it compatible in the meantime (we'd probably be fine with such a submod since it presumably wouldn't take Tianxia content or claim to be officially part of Tianxia) or someone on the team does it when they should be working on other things (which indirectly would mean that the mod as a whole got delayed, so it wouldn't come without downsides)), much like everything connected to having a working Shattered/Random World will have to wait (Shattered might work automatically because of what it does, and Random could work to a greater or lesser extent (though obviously there would not be stuff like an on-map China equivalent in addition to the ERE/HRE equivalents), but I'll not waste any time testing those things or tweaking Tianxia stuff to work with them until more important stuff is done).

(Again, this is my personal opinion and does not necessariy reflect the opinion of the Tianxia team as a whole)
 

Silversweeeper

Ichi no Hito
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Aug 24, 2012
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Some WIP stuff, some of which is far from guaranteed to make it without substantial changes.


Unique Doctrines:

ck2_3.png


In order: Ancestor Veneration + Animistic, Meritocracy + Astrology, Meritocracy + Animistic.

ck2_4.png


In order: Equality + Unrelenting, Sea-Bound (minus river movement) + Animistic, Meritocracy + Ancestor Veneration.

ck2_5.png


In order, ignoring the first: Haruspicy + Ancestor Veneration, Haruspicy + Animistic.

Some of the above are considerably more final than others.

Current (non-Cosmopolitan/non-Dogmatic reformation) Tianxia pagan intermarriages (not final):
Sanamahi - Hindu, Jain, Buddhist
Shenist - Taoist, Thanist, Muist, Buddhist
Muist - Taoist, Buddhist, Shenist, Ryukyuan
Ainu - Shinto, Tengri
Ryukyuan - Muist, Shinto
Thanist - Taoist, Buddhist, Shenist
Kaharingan - Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Melanesian
Melanesian - Kaharingan

Every reformed religion also intermarries with its unreformed "heresy", at present, and any religion that allows intermarriage while unreformed allows it while reformed, too (unless either party goes Dogmatic).


Shinto:

ck2_8.png

Something is a bit different and very final here. Other things, not so much.


Seas of the East:

ck2_7.png


Can't say how final this is at the moment, but chances are a lot of islands will have significantly more strategic value than they previously had, similar to what happened in the Mediterranean with 3.0.


Again, this is WIP stuff, so things could change a lot. Also, ignore the attachments; they're nothing that you can't see above.
 

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