Keizer Harm

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Will be there some enatic stuff added? - But i guess you will maybe add it after HF, cause they want to add them in the DLC
Will HF add Enatic stuff?! :O

Anyhow Enatic and Enatic-Cognatic succession has been in the game since forever, just not made accessible with any government/religion, so this DLC should not be retroactively locking it when existing mods have been making use of them.
 

Enriador

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Is there some part of the Tianxia map that should be Enatic (only women can hold titles) rather than Cognatic (equal treatment) or more male-favoured (Agnatic/Agnatic-Cognatic)?

Some city-states in the Sahel practised Enactic-Cognatic succession.
 

Silversweeeper

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Some city-states in the Sahel practised Enactic-Cognatic succession.

The Sahel presumably falls under the "Vanilla takes precedence" rule since vanilla is updating that region (though we might still have a few provinces slightly to the south of vanilla), and thus we'll presumably do whatever vanilla does there.
 

Al Davoodi

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Will HF add Enatic stuff?! :O

Anyhow Enatic and Enatic-Cognatic succession has been in the game since forever, just not made accessible with any government/religion, so this DLC should not be retroactively locking it when existing mods have been making use of them.

Yeah it is written here :) many ppl were surprised about you should read the thread. At first many thought it is a joke xD
 

Wixelt

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Any news about new version of mod? It is really hard to wait :(

I think you have to sign up for them to send you the code for the alpha.
 

Wixelt

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Silversweeeper

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Any news about new version of mod? It is really hard to wait :(

Pretty much everyone who was active even semi-recently has been taking a break over the summer (and some of them haven't even been active on the forums for several months), so progress has been extremely slow recently. There is also a bunch of things we can't really work on before 2.9/HF because it messes with files we want to work with in the near-ish future, which also slows things down a bit (though the lack of activity in general currently is a more significant factor than this).

The long delay between public versions has been brought up internally several times, so it is something that we're well aware of.


As for the Closed Alpha discussion, I'm not sure what the policy when it comes to Closed Alpha invites is right now (I believe the official sign-up window is over), so PM LumberKing about that. However, we don't really ask for anything beyond "Please report the bugs/issues you find (with the charid/event id, if applicable)" from those who have access to the Closed Alpha, so even if you have no modding experience that shouldn't be an automatic disqualifier.
 

OmnipotentChocolateMilk

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You guys are dong gods work. I was sad when China wasn't included in the DLC (tbh they should allow you to deactivate certain regions of the world like India or China even if you have DLC for lower-end computers). Soon we shall have the mandate of heaven and conquer all lands under heaven all the way to Daqin (Rome).
 

Aardvark Bellay

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Keizer Harm

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Voy

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In what way will Holy Fury help you develop this mod? What features will be made available that would otherwise be missing?

I'm just curious to hear what you have to say about HF.
 

Silversweeeper

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In what way will Holy Fury help you develop this mod? What features will be made available that would otherwise be missing?

I'm just curious to hear what you have to say about HF.

Really hard to say until we've got access to 2.9 and HF, particularly since we can't really say where the line between HF and 2.9 is for everything at this point or how certain things are set up to work with/without HF. Do not take this as a promise in any way, shape, or form.

- You can probably expect a unique feature (Nature, Doctrine, or possibly Leadership (though that might be harder to mod since it touches upon succession)) for our pagan religions, available to them when reforming when HF.

- The Shinto religion will almost certainly stay pre-reformed but will possibly get some unique Nature (and/or Doctrine; I'm personally leaning towards a Nature since none of the vanilla ones seems to be right for them) that's applied when the game starts if you've got HF (if it isn't permitted/possible to add your own without HF active; we need to keep the mod working both with and without HF). They might possibly also get something like a pseudo-reformation down the line that lets you change the religion in minor ways (e.g. you won't be able to declare that the Tenno isn't the rel head all of a sudden), but that's rather far down the line if it happens at all.

- I'm not 100 % sure where the Bön fall when it comes to the "Vanilla takes precedence" rule since they kind-of were added in Tianxia before, so their ability to reform in vanilla might not make it if we feel that it is part of "our" part of the world and not something we like, but Tianxia had a reformable Bön religion before PDS added an unreformable Bön religion so we could quite possibly decide to keep the Bön reformation.

- Mass Conversions will probably stay, but we might change some stuff there to ensure that too silly stuff can't happen (e.g. Japan thinking that mass converting is a remotely sane idea).

- All of the vanilla map changes will be incorporated. Outside of the fact that we'll possibly have to add a few more provinces beyond the vanilla addition in Africa to make things look good there (since our map extends further south), this is unlikely to result in other province changes by itself, but we've long been planning to do a bunch of changes after HF drops so there will be changes elsewhere too because of that (some areas will be getting more provinces, others will probably lose a few because they've got far more provinces than what is reasonable).

- We will almost certainly add unique (at least when it comes to the name; the benefits might not be unique) Bloodlines for dynasties like the Imperial Family of Japan, and possibly also some obtainable "custom" ones (e.g. if someone manages to become a Shogun during play, that's probably worthy of a Bloodline). Just which Bloodlines we'll add probably depends on both the difficulty of setting things up, what we feel makes for a nice Bloodline, what the devs' criteria for adding them seems to have been, and the amount of relevant characters we've got for Tianxia (historical characters still need to be added in many places, both as rulers and to fill out certain family trees).

- The new personal combat stuff will probably be incorporated into the logic for our events involving personal combat (depending on how things look and whether the CK2 devs have been consistent about it; the current duelling logic for different events is rather inconsistent...), and we'll re-scale our stuff according to the new system.

- Some of our pagan religions might get Warrior Lodges with HF, but we'll have to see how fitting the features are for our religions first (and how much work it would be to replace them with something more fitting starting from the HF Warrior Lodges).

- The Cathollic Crusade stuff and the special crusades will presumably be left as-is since none of that touches upon "our" part of the map. The Reconquista and Northern Crusades are likewise unlikely to be stuff that affects Tianxia, though maybe there could be regional "Liberate/reconquer this for our religion/culture!" stuff in some places (though perhaps not with all the features of the Reconquista). The holy order dev diary seemed to mainly mention the Catholic holy orders, so depending on if/how things have changed for other religions or not it may or may not affect us.

- Swaying and Antagonizing might get some special flavour stuff for certain religions or realms, and we might possibly change some things that don't fit well in "our" part of the map to some extent.

- The Shattered/Random World feature will almost certainly not be something we support for the time being (if at all) since making sure that the mod works for the historical setup is a lot more important and some special mechanics (the converted JD China stuff and other mechanics we might add in some places) really start breaking down if some basic assumptions fly out the window and it would be a considerable amount of work to try to redo things in a dynamic way.
 

Ksiendzu

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- I'm not 100 % sure where the Bön fall when it comes to the "Vanilla takes precedence" rule since they kind-of were added in Tianxia before, so their ability to reform in vanilla might not make it if we feel that it is part of "our" part of the world and not something we like, but Tianxia had a reformable Bön religion before PDS added an unreformable Bön religion so we could quite possibly decide to keep the Bön reformation.

Bön will be reformable religion in HF with its own doctrine Harmonious.
 

Silversweeeper

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Bön will be reformable religion in HF with its own doctrine Harmonious.

I'm aware; I'm just not sure how we'll treat the religion and its reformability.

As I mentioned, we used to have our Bön be reformable pre-JD, so we might just go with the vanilla approach post-HF and call it a day, but since the religion falls inside the original non-vanilla sphere it might be something we want to do our own thing with (which could mean not having it reformable, if we decide that that is better for us). The "Vanilla takes precendence" rule is something we previously have skirted around the edges of when it comes to other stuff that falls in the grey area between "Definitely a vanilla thing" and "Definitely a Tianxia thing"; for example, the Silk Road in Tianxia connects to a few more things in the west than in vanilla (I believe the Silk Road screenshot in this post is more-or-less what we've currently got in that area, though I'm fairly certain there are some differences somewhere along the Silk Road) but I believe that all current vanilla Silk Road counties still are Silk Road counties and that all vanilla Silk Road Trade Post counties are still such counties (a few might have been added in vanilla Silk Road provinces, and there are a number of new ones for the new provinces).

Edit: Current Tianxia Silk Road Trade Post counties, in case anyone is curious:
# Vanilla
- Purang
- Lhasa
- Kathmandu
- Mathura
- Delhi
- Dunhuang
- Khotan
- Kashgar
- Trapezous
- Antiocheia
- Alexandria
- Tana
- Tabriz
- Baghdad
- Basra
- Esfahan
- Hormuz
- Merv
- Udabhanda
- Debul
- Navasarika
- Goa
- Mahoyadapuram
- Vijayawada
- Kara Khoja
- Muscat
- Mecca
- Multan
- Socotra
- Aden
- Samarkand
- Kabul
- Kataka
- Samatata
- Varanasi
- Laksmanavati
- Magadha
- Paro
- Cholamandalam
- Ujjayini
- Cairo
- Lahur
- Damascus
- Jerusalem
- Itil
- Turkestan
- Jaffa
- Gurgan
- Qazwin
- Shiraz

# Added (vanilla map)
- Constantinople
- Rome
- Theodosia
- Nikaea
- Nikomedea
- Rhodos
- Famagusta
- Smyrna
- Cephalonia
- Venezia
- Ragusa
- Messina
- Amalfi
- Pisa
- Genoa
- Al Hasa
- Medina

# Added (Far East)
- Chang'an
- Luoyang
- Chengdu
- Dali
- Bagan
- Thaton
- Dai La
- Hai Phong
- Nakhom Phatom
- Chaiya
- Melaka
- Temasek
- Palembang
- Vijaya
- Panyu
- Tanzhou
- Dingcheng
- Quanzhou
- Wenzhou
- Hangzhou
- Dadu
- Hanseong
- Pyongan
- Gyeongju
- Busan
- Xingtai
- Nanyang
- Xinyang
- Xianning
- Jianchang
- Hizen
- Settsu
- Yamashiro
 
Last edited:

Keizer Harm

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Might I ask what the reasoning would be in favour of not making Bön reformable? I don't really understand that viewpoint. I could understand for Shinto, if you really don't want someone to declare themselves the religious head after conquering Japan (even though that's technically what happened to the Emperor.....) but then why still place it in the pagan group? Part of the appeal of playing as a pagan is the reforming part, which only looks like it's going to be even more fun in HF, so I don't see the fun or logic behind disabling it.
 

Silversweeeper

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Might I ask what the reasoning would be in favour of not making Bön reformable? I don't really understand that viewpoint. I could understand for Shinto, if you really don't want someone to declare themselves the religious head after conquering Japan (even though that's technically what happened to the Emperor.....) but then why still place it in the pagan group? Part of the appeal of playing as a pagan is the reforming part, which only looks like it's going to be even more fun in HF, so I don't see the fun or logic behind disabling it.

I can't think of a reason to disable it for the Bön religion off the top of my head, but it isn't my call and since (as mentioned) the Bön religion is somewhat in the grey are between Tianxia and vanilla I think it is possible that we might change something there if we don't like what vanilla does, much like we'll probably expand on Taoists down the line (and already gave them a DW cult with a few of the pagans in the area) since they're rather limited in vanilla (and possibly also might do some other stuff with other relevant religions), so see my not-a-promise comment on them as a heads up that they potentially could be different from vanilla in some fashion.


As for the Shinto starting pre-reformed (ish) and being in pagan_group, that's a rather messy issue.

First off, they have to start feudal (or some type of feudal, at least) and with a good succession law for historical reasons, so not having them be pre-reformed would mean having to add at least some of the features of reformed religions to either the Shinto faith or Shinto rulers holding certain titles (e_japan, etc.), which would make the reformation a rather underwhelming event you potentially could skip unless you wanted faster conversion.

Secondly, without tearing out the reformation "decision" and writing our own (which wouldn't have been a huge amount of work in the past (but still is replacing a vanilla system across the board since we can't use separate conditions for different religions), but will be messier if we want to do it in HF since the ability to pick features would have to be incorporated) we'd have no way to prevent the holder of e_japan from taking that decision and becoming the rel head (or making a random priest the rel head, if the religion stopped having a temporal head) instead of the Tenno (who might not hold e_japan), which we'd want to prevent.

Third, Japan starts with all of the Shinto holy sites under its control right at the start, meaning that even if we don't care who gets to press the button to reform the Shinto faith we'd probably have to redo the reform "decision" because hoarding piety should be easy enough to practically guarantee that the reformation happens early if we don't add additional conditions. We could perhaps move a few of the holy sites to make things a bit harder, but if we move them to other parts of e_japan a few de jure wars would solve things, and moving them elsewhere would require finding a reasonable location (since most vanilla holy sites are reasonable as holy sites for their religion even if not all of them might make the top 5) and would possibly lead to the AI being unable to ever reform due to a lack of CBs (pagans don't fabricate claims normally (though perhaps the Shinto could be made an exception to the rule), the Shinto faith doesn't have Pagan Subjugation (since it led to them waging wars for breakaway inland OPMs in Manchuria and other silly things), and unless we gave the Shinto overseas Pagan County Conquest (which would make them gobble up most of the OPMs down towards the Philippines, most likely) they'd not have that option to secure a holy site on the mainland), so that would be a mess.

Fourth, we need to put the religion somewhere. Unless we want to put it in its own rel group (which would be possible, but would create some issues of its own), we need to put it in a DLC-locked group (unless we want to make the religion part of the Christian group) and thus find ourselves with very limited options, of which pagan_group seems like the least bad option since stuff like intermarriage inside the same group then works out somewhat sensibly.

Finally, on a more general note, the way the CK2 devs have set things up restricts what we can do when setting up religion groups. Since we need to keep stuff locked to the appropriate DLC, if we want to use basically any tOG/HF pagan stuff (that isn't something that's generic enough to create a copy of without running into trouble, like creating a "Shinto County Conquest" CB for non-pagan_group Shinto) for a religion it must be in pagan_group since we can't create e.g. an eastern_pagan_group and tie that to the relevant DLCs, and that sometimes means making choices that aren't ideal (like scrapping our Daotic religion group because Taoists got tossed into indian_group).
 
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Keizer Harm

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Thanks for your expansive response. I learned some things, but I still have comments/questions.
First off, they have to start feudal (or some type of feudal, at least) and with a good succession law for historical reasons, so not having them be pre-reformed would mean having to add at least some of the features of reformed religions to either the Shinto faith or Shinto rulers holding certain titles (e_japan, etc.), which would make the reformation a rather underwhelming event you potentially could skip unless you wanted faster conversion.
Counter-argument: Bön has all of those features, and reforming it can still be an eventful affair for both faster conversion and (with HF) custom features.
Secondly, without tearing out the reformation "decision" and writing our own [...] we'd have no way to prevent the holder of e_japan from taking that decision and becoming the rel head (or making a random priest the rel head, if the religion stopped having a temporal head) instead of the Tenno (who might not hold e_japan), which we'd want to prevent.
Given that the religious features are all scripted, I am quite convinced you will be able to add arbitrary restrictions, such as restricting Shinto from ever choosing the temporal head (though, from an RP perspective, I personally wouldn't add many of those restrictions).
Third, Japan starts with all of the Shinto holy sites under its control right at the start, meaning that even if we don't care who gets to press the button to reform the Shinto faith we'd probably have to redo the reform "decision" because hoarding piety should be easy enough to practically guarantee that the reformation happens early if we don't add additional conditions.[...]
The solution is in the question: add additional restrictions. Decisions are in script, so wouldn't it be possible to require the completion of an event chain (perhaps one taking place over multiple generations) to successfully reform Shinto? If nothing else, upping the 750 piety to a monstrous amount (like 4000) would make sure that the only person capable of doing that would not only need to have all the holy cites, but also be ridiculously pious. Which would be appropriate.
Fourth, we need to put the religion somewhere. Unless we want to put it in its own rel group (which would be possible, but would create some issues of its own), we need to put it in a DLC-locked group (unless we want to make the religion part of the Christian group) and thus find ourselves with very limited options, of which pagan_group seems like the least bad option since stuff like intermarriage inside the same group then works out somewhat sensibly.
So I am not sure what the problem is with adding a group specifically for Shinto, if you do not want them to reform. It is not a vanilla religion. I am not versed in the religious history of the region, so I am not sure what else you would put in that group, but one just for Shinto may be a good evasion strategy.
Finally, on a more general note, the way the CK2 devs have set things up restricts what we can do when setting up religion groups. Since we need to keep stuff locked to the appropriate DLC, if we want to use basically any tOG/HF pagan stuff [...] for a religion it must be in pagan_group since we can't create e.g. an eastern_pagan_group and tie that to the relevant DLCs, and that sometimes means making choices that aren't ideal (like scrapping our Daotic religion group because Taoists got tossed into indian_group).
So you cannot create a new group and require DLC to play anything in that group? That is a surprise to me. Is Paradox not satisfied with adding "DLC="The Old Gods"" as a trigger for every single event and decision in that religion, if it is not possible to lock out the religion itself?
 

Silversweeeper

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Counter-argument: Bön has all of those features, and reforming it can still be an eventful affair for both faster conversion and (with HF) custom features.

Bön currently isn't reformable (I'm aware that's changing) and doesn't start in as good a position to reform (if it was on the table) since they're missing a bunch of holy sites. I'll grant that it probably will be fairly straightforward for them to reform in HF if you start as Tibet in 769 (the AI will probably still mess things up horribly unless it has been taught to try to go for holy sites), but the situation isn't entirely similar.

Given that the religious features are all scripted, I am quite convinced you will be able to add arbitrary restrictions, such as restricting Shinto from ever choosing the temporal head (though, from an RP perspective, I personally wouldn't add many of those restrictions).

The solution is in the question: add additional restrictions. Decisions are in script, so wouldn't it be possible to require the completion of an event chain (perhaps one taking place over multiple generations) to successfully reform Shinto? If nothing else, upping the 750 piety to a monstrous amount (like 4000) would make sure that the only person capable of doing that would not only need to have all the holy cites, but also be ridiculously pious. Which would be appropriate.

Based on dev comments, you will definitely be able to restrict which religions can pick which features, so that would be doable (I would suspect it would be trivial, even).

However, the reformation "decision" itself isn't in script and is instead governed by a few defines that are the same for all pagans. Want to make feudalization a prerequisite? Want to make a specific religion have a harder time? Want to add a realm size requirement, or scale the other requirements based on realm size? Want to restrict the culture of the reformer, or their rank, or make certain they hold a specific title? Want to make it easier to reform if someone else reformed first? None of that is possible without your own replacement system, and with HF such a system will probably keep you from getting the Reformation Screen and thus make picking the features less easy (though it would presumably still be possible to change the features as part of the reformation process). A replacement would also almost certainly require more performance since all unreformed pagans above baron tier would need to go "Can I reform?" every month (since reformation is important enough that we can't really make it something it only checks infrequently) and even the most efficient scripting possible with the exact same reformation criteria as for the default system would probably cost more than the hardcoded check.

So I am not sure what the problem is with adding a group specifically for Shinto, if you do not want them to reform. It is not a vanilla religion. I am not versed in the religious history of the region, so I am not sure what else you would put in that group, but one just for Shinto may be a good evasion strategy.

At present, that would force us to use the very unfitting Christian interface (I believe this is changing with 2.9, but the graphics for a certain interface might still be DLC-locked...), would force us to define explicit intermarriages between the Shinto religion and all pagans we'd like to allow them to marry (which, granted, is trivial), and quite possibly would require a bunch of other changes due to us having assumed that checks for pagan_group automatically include the Shinto religion. It would also open up the obvious question of "Why don't you make the other Tianxia pagans non-pagans (and lock some stuff to tOG/HF) and make all Taoists Confucans (while keeping their JD stuff JD-locked) so that the Shinto religion isn't the only non-DLC Tianxia religion?", which is a can of worms I'd prefer not to open.

So you cannot create a new group and require DLC to play anything in that group? That is a surprise to me. Is Paradox not satisfied with adding "DLC="The Old Gods"" as a trigger for every single event and decision in that religion, if it is not possible to lock out the religion itself?

You can't currently lock new groups to a DLC, no, and moving something locked into a new group (or into the Christian group, which always is unlocked) breaks the lock. I checked this after JD when we were considering keeping Tianxia's Daotic group around and the RoI/JD lock broke for Taoists as soon as they were outside indian_group. You also cannot define custom unlocks (or locks) inside a group (which was one of the things that prevented us from simply putting our Daotic religions into indian_group and having those unlocked with JD).

It definitely is possible to lock events and decisions for a non-vanilla religion to a DLC, but if you e.g. wanted to make a bunch pagan_group events that aren't locked to some specific subgroup available for a new religion in a separate group if you have the proper DLC for them you'd need to move from the more efficient pre_trigger "has_dlc = "The Old Gods" " to a regular trigger with an OR block, which both is evaluated later and takes a bit of extra performance for the OR (which, for something that is checked frequently enough, could be an issue) and looking through all references to pagan_group and updating them to include the new religion where appropriate, which is extra work and quite possibly work that continues to be necessary due to updates. Occasionally, doing something like that might be worth it, but in general avoiding the extra work is good.