Silversweeeper

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That is curious indeed. I must check myself when I get home; perhaps they changed it in a later patch. I remember my campaign being ruined by the inability to convert others.

The flag was added in 2.8.2 (and applied to all normal unreformed pagans), so that might be why.
 

Nukumnehtar

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@Silversweeeper Perhaps a Jurchen pagan religion can be made for the Jurchen culture and their Mohe ancestors (pre-Jurchens)? It would further differer them from their Khitan overlords during the Liao period, and was different enough from Tengriism to warrant its inclusion. During the Jurchen period they were said to honor to the Supreme Sky Goddess (Abkha)Abka Hehe (a similar position that Amaterasu has in Japanese tradition). A secondary God would be Abka Enduri, who was later upheld as the Supreme Deity around the time of the Manchu cultural reforms (supposedly due to increased Confucian influence). This could perhaps be reflected by having a pre-reformed and a reformed version of the religion. Jurchen shamans were also apparently largely female in number.

A few quotes on the subject:
Jurchens practiced shamanic rituals and believed in a supreme sky goddess (abka hehe, literally sky woman). The Jurchens of the Jin dynasty practiced Buddhism, which became the prevalent religion of the Jurchens, and Daoism.[55] Under Confucian influence during the Qing dynasty the gender of the female sky deity was switched to a male sky father, Abka Enduri (abka-i enduri, abka-i han).[56]
Abka Hehe, primordial Manchurian goddess, forms a triad with two other Manchu spirits: Banamu Hehe (Earth Mother) and Ulden Hehe (Light Mother). (Hehe is “Mama” in Manchu; also sometimes translated as “woman.”) Everything comes from Abka Hehe, including the other two goddesses of the triad. Once they emerged from her body, the three then created more spirits, people, and all living beings. Abka Hehe epitomizes all that is good. She is the guardian of the entire universe, an immortal, invincible spirit who defeats and banishes evil. Abka Hehe sent the Eagle Goddess to Earth in order to raise the first shamaness. (Traditional Manchu culture distinguishes between female and male shamans. They are perceived as possessing distinct powers.)
This folklore and myth of the Manchus from the Heilongjiang Province is researched for relic demic and cultural influences from the Amurian folk who may have peopled Japan in the prehistoric past. A number of observations may be made.

Akbke hehe heavenly mother goddess recalls the Japanese Amaterasu goddess…and in the name is the rare corresponding cognate word with the Japanese “haha” for mother, belying the Altaic-Tungusic linguistic connection.



The two peoples (Japanese and Heilongjiang people) shared their magpie creator myths, crow ancestors (Jimmu led by a crow) and the similarity of the divinity riding on a red deer (the god who rode golden deer from the Kashima shrine of Ibaragi to Hachimangu in the West)

“During the more than one thousand years of the history of their development as a nation, the Manchu have created a rich immaterial culture. In addition to old written literary works, this culture possesses an abundant stock of oral popular traditions. The Manchurian myth of the origin of the world that Backer analyzes in this work is just one of these traditions.

It is a text that originally carried the title “The Battle in the Heavenly Palace,” and was recorded in writing only very recently. This myth belongs to an originally oral tradition of the category Wecekun Ulhibun (‘Announcements at the site of a sacrifice”) that formerly used to be recited by a shaman in remote areas, particularly in Heilongjiang Province. These “announcements” were the sacred property of each clan, but they varied considerably in their content from clan to clan. They were handed down through many generations, and a small number of them has been recorded in writing only since the beginning of the twentieth century.
The myth introduced in this book originates from the Fuca-hala (Fuca clan) in the Aihui (Aigun) district.
The myth analyzed here is possibly the most complete version of such a myth known today. The Chinese manuscript was written in 1936 at the time of the Manchukuo, the puppet state of Japan. The myth was recorded directly as it was sung by a shaman. The text was able to survive the second world war, the extreme Anti-Rightist-Campaign of 1957, and the catastrophe of the Cultural Revolution (1966—1976) because it was hidden away. Unfortunately, due to the effects of the weather and of combat activities in the Heihe area, parts of the text became illegible, and some of the chapters were dispersed.
In an extensive introduction Backer discusses the history of the creation myth and makes illuminating comparisons with similar folk literature that has existed among other peoples of Eurasia. He divides the nine sections of the text into nine chapters and then provides each chapter with a detailed commentary that provides background knowledge. In the analysis of the myth he discusses its structure and type. He also addresses the question of Iranian influences and investigates possible means and routes for the transmission of Iranian ideas to northeast Manchuria. For his investigation of possible transmission routes, he compares the Manchurian material with Altai-Turkic parallels. In relation to the entire complex of Manchu cosmology, he discusses the heavenly constellations that appear in the myth together with ideas about the heavenly bodies that are of north Manchurian origin and which belong to the shamanistic worldview of the Manchu. He also addresses problems the myth raises in relation to shamanistic rituals and to the possibility of a matrilineal structure in the Manchu clans.
The myth begins with a short narrative about the shamaness Bo’e-deyinmu,who arrives from the east riding on a divine deer, and w ho,s spirit tells the myth through the mouth of the shaman narrating it. Backer believes that the deer was a red deer, but I rather think that it was a reindeer. Many stories are told among the local Manchu population about the magnificent abilities of this shamaness who is said to have lived from 1662 to 1735 as healer, diviner, storyteller, and singer. She is also believed to be a deity of song and dance.
This Manchu creation myth describes the origin of the world, including that of the heavenly bodies and that of a triad of goddesses: Abka Hehe (Woman of Heaven), Banamu Hehe (Woman Mother Earth), and Ulden Hehe (Woman Light). These goddesses in turn then create humans (both men and women), all the other living beings, and more goddesses.
The goddess Aoqin, who has nine heads and eight arms, is a particularly wild and aggressive goddess. She becomes the androgynous demon Yeluri who then attempts to destroy the good goddesses in order to rule the world. This being is, therefore, some sort of Manchurian Satan. In the myth Yeluri personifies evil, destruction, deceit, coldness, and darkness. He is the foe of all that is good. The myth also tells of the continuous fight with the demon Yeluri who is capable of generating new demons. With the help of several theriomorphic goddesses such as the hedgehog goddess, the rat goddess, and the eagle goddess, to mention only the most important ones, the good goddesses finally succeed in beating back the attacks of the demon Yeluri and ban him to live under the surface of the earth.
Abka Hehe in the end becomes an immortal and invincible goddess of the universe who protects heaven and earth for future generations. She dispatches the divine eagle woman with the mission to raise on earth a small girl to become the first great shamaness. The first shaman (shamaness) being raised by an eagle (female eagle) is a motif widespread in northern Asia.
All of these events happen during the time before the flood, which in the Manchu myth is caused by the demon Yeluri and not by human misbehavior. However, the great flood constitutes a break in time that has universal consequences that affect the Manchu. It is noteworthy that shamanism originates in the time before the flood, a fact that is said to be proof of its being close to the divine. Abka Hehe continues to be active also after the flood but later she is replaced by Abka Enduri, the male god of heaven. Although today Abka Enduri and other male gods are prevalent, the myth is apparently meant to point out that until recently Abka Hehe existed and was of great importance. In any case, this tradition offers an example in which matriarchy had been replaced by patriarchy in the Manchu pantheon of deities. It is also quite likely that the tradition reflects two historical realities in the ethnic group:

(1) that the vocation of a shaman was transmitted matrilineally among the early Manchu; and
(2) that even matrilineal clans might have existed. Later on, the system of descendence of the
shamans in particular as well as the one within the clans in general may have changed in
favor of patrilineal filiation.” — Jorg Backer
The Manchu name for a shamanic shrine or altar to the spirits is tangse.[3] Because its Chinese equivalent tangzi (堂子) means "hall," it may seem that tangse was derived from Chinese, but only around 1660 did tangse start to be translated as tangzi.[4] Before that, it was rendered into Chinese as yemiao (謁廟), or "visitation temple."[4] The term tangse may have originated in the portable "god boxes" (also "tangse") in which the Jurchens placed god figurines when they were still mobile hunters.[3] Once Jurchen bands started to settle into palisaded villages (their typical kind of settlement), their tangse became permanent fixtures of the village.[3]

Each clan—mukūn, a village or association of villages who claimed to share common ancestors—had its sacred protective spirits (enduri).[5] The shaman (often a woman) was in charge of placating spirits and dead ancestors and of contacting them to seek a good hunt or harvest, quick healing, success in battle, and other such favors.[6] The point of contact between the community and the spirits was the "spirit pole" (Manchu: šomo; Chinese: 神柱; pinyin: shénzhù).[7] Shamans played a crucial role in these early Jurchen communities, as the authority of the clan headman often depended on the assent of the shaman.[8]

There were two kinds of Jurchen shamanistic rituals, corresponding to two kinds of shamans.[9] The most common was "domestic ritual": ritual-based sacrifices to Heaven and to the clan's ancestors conducted by hereditary shamans from that clan.[10] "Primitive ritual," on the other hand, was performed by people who had undergone a "shamanic illness," which was seen as a sign that they had been chosen by the spirits.[11] Entering into a trance, these "transformational" shamans let themselves be possessed by various animal spirits and sought the help of these spirits for purposes like healing or exorcism.[12] These shamans set up an altar in their own houses and received a different kind of training from hereditary shamans.[13]

Manchu shamans typically wore an apron, a feathered cap denoting their ability to fly to the spirit world, and a belt with dangling bells, and carried a knife, two wooden sticks with bells affixed to the top, and a drum they used during ceremonies.[14] These attributes could still be observed among shamans from Manchuria and Mongolia in the early twentieth century.[15]

Jurchen shamanic practices were transformed by the rise of Qing founder Nurhaci (1559–1626).[6] As he started to unify the Jurchen tribes, Nurhaci destroyed the tangse of the defeated tribes and replaced their protective deities with the magpie, the totemic animal of his own clan, the Aisin Gioro.[16] Tribes that voluntarily joined Nurhaci were allowed to keep their own gods.[3] This absorption of other clans' shamanic rituals into those of Nurhaci's clan started a process of "state codification of religion" that continued into the eighteenth century.[17]

In another transformation that "mirrored the process of political centralization" in Nurhaci's state, the traditional Jurchen belief in multiple heavens was replaced by one Heaven called "Abka ama" or "Abka han."[14] This new shamanic Heaven became the object of a state cult similar to that of the Jurchen rulers' cult of Heaven in the Jin dynasty (1115–1234) and to Chinggis Khan's worship of Tengri in the thirteenth century.[18] This state sacrifice became an early counterpart to the Chinese worship of Heaven.[19] From as early as the 1590s, Nurhaci appealed to Heaven as, "the arbiter of right and wrong."[18] He worshipped Heaven at a shamanic shrine in 1593 before leaving for a campaign against the Yehe, a Jurchen tribe that belonged to the rival Hūlun confederacy.[18] Qing annals also report that when Nurhaci announced his Seven Great Grievances against the Ming dynasty in April 1618, he conducted a shamanic ceremony during which he burned an oath to Heaven written on a piece of yellow paper.[20] This ceremony was deliberately omitted from the later Chinese translation of this event by the Qing court.[21]

Nurhaci's son Hong Taiji (r. 1626–1643), who renamed the Jurchens "Manchus" in 1635, forbade commoners and officials from erecting shamanic shrines for ritual purposes, making the tangse "the monopoly of the ruler."[3] He also banned shamans from treating illness, albeit with little success.[13] The Old Manchu Archives, a chronicle documenting Manchu history from 1607 to 1636, show that state rituals were held at the tangse of the Qing capital Mukden in the 1620s and 1630s.[22] Just before commanding Banner troops into China in early 1644, Prince Dorgon (1612–1650), who was then regent to the newly enthroned Shunzhi Emperor (r. 1643–1661), led the other Manchu princes in worshipping Heaven at the Mukden tangse.[18]

Shamans could also be used for personal purposes, as when Nurhaci's eldest son Cuyen supposedly tried to bewitch the entire Aisin Gioro lineage with the help of shamans in 1612.[23]
Jurchen culture shared many similarities with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle of Siberian-Manchurian tundra and coastal peoples. Like the Khitans and Mongols, they took pride in feats of strength, horsemanship, archery, and hunting. Both Mongols and Jurchens used the title Khan for the leaders of a political entity, whether "emperor" or "chief". A particularly powerful chief was called beile ("prince, nobleman"), corresponding with the Mongolian beki and Turkish beg or bey. Also like the Mongols and the Turks, the Jurchens did not observe primogeniture. According to tradition, any capable son or nephew could be chosen to become leader.

Unlike the Mongols,[39][40] the Jurchens were a sedentary[41][11] and agrarian society. They farmed grain and millet as their primary cereal crops, grew flax and raised oxen, pigs, sheep, and horses.[42]"At the most", the Jurchen could only be described as "semi-nomadic" while the majority of them were sedentary.[20]

Jurchen similarities and differences with the Mongols were emphasized to various degrees by Nurhaci out of political expediency.[43] Nurhaci once said to the Mongols that "the languages of the Chinese and Koreans are different, but their clothing and way of life is the same. It is the same with us Manchus (Jušen) and Mongols. Our languages are different, but our clothing and way of life is the same." Later, Nurhaci indicated that the bond with the Mongols was not based on any real shared culture, but rather on pragmatic reasons of "mutual opportunism". He said to the Mongols, "You Mongols raise livestock, eat meat and wear pelts. My people till the fields and live on grain. We two are not one country and we have different languages".[44]

During the Ming dynasty, the Jurchens lived in sub-clans (mukun or hala mukun) of ancient clans (hala). Not all clan members were blood related, and division and integration of different clans was common. Jurchen households (boo) lived as families (booigon) consisting of five to seven blood-related family members and a number of slaves. Households formed squads (tatan) to engage in tasks related to hunting and food gathering and formed companies (niru) for larger activities, such as war.

This could perhaps be the religion of more remote Jurchen provinces during the Jin Dynasty, while city centers were more predominantly Buddhist or Taoist; and at the same time be more prominent among the Mohe provinces during the Balhae era (first two start dates). I made a religion symbol of an Manchu-style eagle for the religion for the US mod that you can use for it if you like.
 

TheAnguishedOne

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The changes to Shinto sound great to me, I am especially happy with the Amaterasu Descendant trait.
 

Masternachos

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I'm not sure how religious conversion works, but would it be possible to increase Shinto conversion rates for certain people/provinces? ie, If a province is considered de jure Japan, a Shinto missionary gets a little boost in conversion chances. (Or maybe instead, a slight penalty for proselytizing outside Japan?) And/or perhaps for characters of Japanese culture?

Still, liking a well-developed Japan. Although that makes me want to ask if you're looking at other mods (like the Sengoku one, I think?) to get ideas for what kind of events, etc., to add. If not, it might be a good idea. (I assume, I don't know anything.)
 

Silversweeeper

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I'm not sure how religious conversion works, but would it be possible to increase Shinto conversion rates for certain people/provinces? ie, If a province is considered de jure Japan, a Shinto missionary gets a little boost in conversion chances. (Or maybe instead, a slight penalty for proselytizing outside Japan?) And/or perhaps for characters of Japanese culture?

Still, liking a well-developed Japan. Although that makes me want to ask if you're looking at other mods (like the Sengoku one, I think?) to get ideas for what kind of events, etc., to add. If not, it might be a good idea. (I assume, I don't know anything.)

Buffing conversion rates for Shinto in specific places might be doable.

Taking stuff from other mods requires getting permission (which might be tricky, especially if there are conditions that we might not like), so it might be easier to do our own thing.
 

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Taking stuff from other mods requires getting permission (which might be tricky, especially if there are conditions that we might not like), so it might be easier to do our own thing.
Ah, right.
 

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The Japanese did not see religion in Shinto, but a completely natural practice. They did it, and apart from that, they adhered to Buddhism. They did not see religion in Shinto. In Buddhism, yes. The Japanese could profess Buddhism or not. He could not, however, not practice Shinto.
 

Silversweeeper

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Any ETA on new update?

I'm afraid not.

We don't have very many active devs at the moment (if I look back a month, we've had four people active (and that is if I count "Posted in our internal forums" as "Being active"), and one of us four has gotten busy with personal commitments since then and has let us know that he'll probably not be back soon). Even those of us who are active have our personal lives getting in the way and occasionally feel the need to take decently long breaks from modding to stay fresh.

Our list of goals we hope to get done before the Closed Beta starts is also rather vague ("Flavour events/decisions for Japan/the Shinto religion" is one such goal; I would have estimated it as <200 events before I got started, but I've already scripted 220-ish events (I got a bit carried away with the hanami stuff when I thought up a couple of mini-event chains that required quite a few events to get done) and know for a fact that we aren't done with that goal) and varied when it comes to difficulty (we have trivial stuff like "Add more government flavour" and huge stuff like "Add historical province-level rulers and their families").

Also, we have no real idea when 2.9/Holy Fury will be released, and that will require quite a bit of work to make compatible (because of the map changes) and will probably open up new stuff for us to do (since we've postponed some of our planned map changes until after 2.9 and we probably also will want to update our reformations to work like the HF ones with HF), so depending on how far we've gotten with everything when that happens it could delay things further.


I know it isn't fun to sit around waiting for us to release something (and I'm painfully aware of how long it has been since the last Open Alpha version was released), particularly without an estimate as to when we will have something ready, but there are a lot of unknowns for us too, and I don't get to make any decisions about when we release another public version.
 

Silversweeeper

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Haven't been here for awhile and I'm wondering if China is still playable on this mod if Jade Dragon is enabled?

China is playable with JD, but not without JD (because Taoists are DLC-locked), in the version we're working on.
 

Wixelt

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What about the Wuist pagans?
 

Silversweeeper

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What about the Wuist pagans?

I assume you mean playability? You'll need tOG to play as them, and at the moment there are no rulers with that religion, so you'd have to Ruler Design your way into playing them, do some save editing, use the console, or secretly convert from a holy site (and then go public).
 

LumberKing

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any link to updated test versions? i mean with regular updates, github or something. just want to play&test it

No, as it is currently in Closed Alpha right now. If you would like to test it and give regular bug reports to newer versions, you are welcome to apply to be a Closed Alpha Tester.
 

valrossenOliver

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This just cought my attention. Never knew this existed until I learnt about it from reddit a few minutes ago in a meme-post. What kind of team members are you looking for?
I'm just graduated programming and don't really have annything to do apart from packing meatballs in a factory right now, so putting that coding-training into some use would be nice. Havn't modded CK2 but I've done some eu4 tweaks (not anything published) but currently working on a design for Autonomy levels for subjects and a rewamp of PP.

If you need a coder I'd gladly sit down and learn how to get into CK2 modding and try something new. :)

Anyways, good luck on that mod. I'm afraid CK2 is reaching it's end of the dev-cycle so modding is propablywhat's going to keep it alive.

Cheers!