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(Note: most of this is about China since that's where the majority of my East Asia knowledge is.)

If we're matching vanilla's Jeanne d'Arc events, may I suggest a Yue Fei event chain? Han Chinese commander (or maybe a local governor, I'm not sure how well CK2 can model unlanded characters doing anything on their own) declares war on a "foreign" (non-Chinese) empire that holds significant land in China, possibly in a way that upsets the balance of power (maybe they gain the land afterwards and becomes a threat?), and you have the choice to support him and win some land back or capitulate to the powers that be and get rid of him (as happened historically) to secure a long-ish truce with the foreign empire. This event chain would probably be most relevant in the Jin-Song War bookmark (when it actually happened in history), but I could see it happening in a Yuan bookmark with a player-led Han restoration, or possibly even firing against the player (although this might be difficult to balance since Yue Fei probably needs at least a reasonable chance of winning to make the event chain meaningful for a player China and not just "press this button to secure a thirty-year truce with our biggest threat").

I'd say that's potentially difficult to balance, and the "You get a truce with a foreign realm" would possibly be less fun for the other realm if they don't particularly want said truce, though possibly something that could be done as a one-off event loosely inspired by history. I also sort of feel the Chinese Subjugation CB already covers the "Vassal grabs a bunch of territory from a rival realm (with some restrictions) nearby" situation to an extent, and the "He's doing too well; kill him before he becomes a problem!" thing can of course happen organically, though maybe a bit more could be done.

(I should perhaps note that Yue Fei himself is landed for a while from 1127.1.9, as it was difficult to find better vassals for Song, but that "story events" railroading history really aren't something I personally like, so I'm not interested in adding those; I'd potentially be open to someone else doing it, assuming they were reasonably balanced and that there was a game rule to disable it for anyone that doesn't want that sort of thing, but it'd still not be a priority)

Some other fun random events I can think of for China would probably draw upon classical Chinese literature. Journey To The West is set in the seventh century, before the start of the game, and only written in the sixteenth century, but folk stories about it existed prior to that and could make for a fun random event or two (or maybe just go the full ahistorical/absurd route and have a monk and a monkey show up at your court asking for funding to go to India).

I'm not extremely familiar with Journey to the West (I know some broad strokes), but it might be something that either could inspire something supernatural (locked behind that game rule) or that could be de-supernaturalified. Of course, it has the problem with assuming that the situation is historical enough that going to India isn't weird in the context in which it appears (e.g. a character ruling over India getting an event about someone wanting to travel abroad... to India would be silly), so it might need to be restricted to specific conditions or to be made more generic ("travel abroad" to an unspecific location).

There's a random fable about some guy finding a pre-Han dynasty utopia (The Peach Blossom Spring), although I'm not sure how to turn that one into an event.

I have some plans for Mount Penglai (primarily with supernatural events on, though maybe people could still try to go/send someone there without...), which feels like it might overlap; it's not quite the same, as best I can tell, but it's got the "mystical land" bit.

There are also various stories about divine beings meddling in Earthly affairs (such as the Investiture of the Gods or the Water Margin), although those might be a bit too supernatural or have too much impact on the game.

I'd have to look at things in some detail to determine if it's too powerful; too supernatural isn't a problem, considering the game rule (even if I hope to also add a good amount of non-supernatural flavour, particularly as not everyone is a fan of the supernatural stuff).

I think the experience of playing a bureaucratic ruler (or corresponding imperial) could also benefit from some more court events, especially if the intended mode of play is sitting there and developing the country instead of expanding.

While how you play of course ultimately is up to you, the intended gameplay for bureaucracies is generally more towards the peaceful side, seeing as e.g. "China blobs everywhere, on its own or through its vassals" would be very ahistorical and thus isn't really something we want to encourage and the things we're doing thus generally are intended to make things more interesting in historical(ish) circumstances and ways (e.g. there were periods during which the eunuchs wielded a lot of influence and didn't necessarily use it for the good of the realm, and the next update should make that a bit more of a thing) instead.

I'm a bit unsure what you mean about "court events", and I don't want to be too specific (especially as some things are still very vague and even more concrete ideas might not pan out), but on the whole I'd say that various events (and other things) making the peaceful(ish) side of things more interesting is something to look at, both from the top liege's perspective and that of vassals (that might be unable to expand much), and that areas tied to stats other than Martial and PCS are what we should be trying to enhance the most for bureaucracies (e.g. realm management, scholarship, politicking).

Maybe some events where you gain or lose influence with the emperor (not sure how to model, favours can be used for a bunch of vanilla stuff that straight up don't make sense in this context, maybe Grace?) on various minor things: examples would include the Great Rites Controversy. (Sidetracking a bit here, I think vassals should have more ways to curry favour with the emperor that aren't "plot and scheme to seize power from the emperor". Maybe more Grace interactions can be added that vassals of the emperor can use?)

Spoiler alert: The current plan is to significantly extend the Grace system and to make it usable by vassals (of a Chinese Imperial China), with some powers being added specifically for vassals (some of which could be used to grow your own power, some less useful for that); the specifics still need to be ironed out, but I've got enough of a plan that I'm prepared to say this much. This will not be an option for vassals of a pretender, as the Grace system can't really be expanded to be something that's available for all CI rulers(' vassals) due to how it is set up, but it'll at least make a difference in China itself.

Also, somewhat relevant to the theme of gaining influence through an interaction with the emperor that also doubles as a fun character-based event: Dong Xian.

It might be hard to implement something entirely similar to that, particularly for a courtier (and I'm unsure how interesting "This is a very powerful courtier!" is, considering that courtiers generally are less impactful than vassals in CK2, even if I'm not entirely opposed to making courtiers more impactful), but I have some ideas for making councillors and other important characters (e.g. spouses and high-ranking (ones with special honorary titles) consorts) potentially get more influence, whether for themselves or people they like (e.g. an ambitious consort that likes her father/brother/nephew might perhaps try to convince the emperor that the aforementioned relative deserves a title/money/Grace/a Favor/a council spot/etc., and might perhaps do something unwanted if the suggestion is refused).

(Sidetrack number 2: appointing local governors as "councillors" is pretty rare since local governor is a fairly low position compared to "at home" positions in the imperial court. I recognise that this is an abstraction brought about by the limitations of the game but having local governors be influential in the central court still feels a little jarring.)

I definitely agree it's not historical, but while it'd be very easy to implement a "No vassals on the council!" rule for Chinese Imperial rulers from a scripting standpoint it feels like it'd make things quite a bit worse for player vassals (who already are restricted based on skills), and I think this is a case of gameplay and (subjective) fun needing to take precedence over historical accuracy.

(Out of curiosity, how does one become involved with the development process of this mod, and what is the rough amount of work?)

The amount of work still to be done on the mod is still quite significant, so it's possible to do a lot of work, and some specific things will require a lot of work. There's some lower limit to how much time/work I'd expect (for one thing, if someone works very slowly or spends very little time working, they can't really be given responsibility for anything that's large (or that needs to be done quickly), and while there occasionally is a bunch of smaller stuff to be done that's not necessarily a constant thing and those things aren't necessarily priorities), but I'm well aware everyone has other things they want or have to do as well, and I'd not say the bar is particularly high for "Contributes enough to be worth keeping on the team".

I will, however, note that working on Tianxia and playing with Tianxia active is not remotely the same thing, so someone whose interest in "development" could be summed up as "I want to play with new stuff sooner!" is not the kind of person we're looking for, and though there's certainly need for brainstorming from time to time we're looking for people that can (and want to) implement stuff rather than come up with things for others to implement; ideas are welcome, but they don't make the "Stuff to implement" pile any smaller.


Regarding how to become involved, I posted a bunch of questions that would be good for prospective Tianxia devs to answer here. If you're interested, PM me your answers to them; I'll then let you know whether I consider something a clear deal-breaker (if it's clear your overall vision for what the mod should be is vastly different, that cooperation would be very difficult for some reason, or the like, it's not going to work out, and it's easier for both of us if I refuse), a possible problem (in which case discussing it ahead of time to figure out whether it's likely to be an issue), or if I think it sounds good (most likely with some comment regarding what you wrote; I do get wordy from time to time...).

If there's no deal-breaker or major problem that seems difficult to resolve, I'll tell you that we're interested, wait for a few days in case something in my reply made you have second thoughts, and then (or upon receiving a reply along the lines of "Yes, I'm still interested") I'll let LumberKing know (he needs to handle dev Discord/GitHub repository invites, and also has the final say (even if I doubt he'll overrule me on "Hey, can you add [name] to the team? They seem like they'd be able to help out.")), and he'll most likely get in touch by PM before very long.
 
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(I should perhaps note that Yue Fei himself is landed for a while from 1127.1.9, as it was difficult to find better vassals for Song, but that "story events" railroading history really aren't something I personally like, so I'm not interested in adding those; I'd potentially be open to someone else doing it, assuming they were reasonably balanced and that there was a game rule to disable it for anyone that doesn't want that sort of thing, but it'd still not be a priority)
Fully agree. I think most "historical" events function better as generic events (even if their trigger might be somewhat specific to the dynamics of a certain start). You do make a good point that a combination of other mechanics does seem to do a decent job of emulating his situation, though, and it can arise much more organically than having an event chain that essentially spawns a nationalist (who is either a massive threat or a huge help depending on the situation and could be impossible to balance properly).
I'm a bit unsure what you mean about "court events", and I don't want to be too specific (especially as some things are still very vague and even more concrete ideas might not pan out), but on the whole I'd say that various events (and other things) making the peaceful(ish) side of things more interesting is something to look at, both from the top liege's perspective and that of vassals (that might be unable to expand much), and that areas tied to stats other than Martial and PCS are what we should be trying to enhance the most for bureaucracies (e.g. realm management, scholarship, politicking).
Almost precisely what I was hoping for. More interactions involving skills that are not "be constantly at war" would be nice, especially since I agree that it is extremely ahistorical for Chinese vassals to be fighting wars at all in times when the Emperor's authority was high and there were no major foreign threats (which, presumably, should be the case for quite some amount of game time if the systems approximate the historical setup correctly). I think having more events and possibly other systems to encourage a well-developed peaceful bureaucratic realm is a good direction and will improve QOL in China, Korea and (possibly, I'm less familiar with that area) Japan.
I have some ideas for making councillors and other important characters (e.g. spouses and high-ranking (ones with special honorary titles) consorts) potentially get more influence, whether for themselves or people they like
Once again, I think this is a good direction and possibly makes for an interesting realm management game in peacetime (how do you want to balance your local governors, your councillors, your spouse/concubines and your eunuchs so that they stay at each other's throats and not yours). Given how much this balancing act is a theme in Chinese history (and histriography), as well as the ensuing chaos when one party gains too much power, I think this is interesting. (And I presume the Chinese imperial influence laws teased for 14.0.0 are part of this idea?)
I definitely agree it's not historical, but while it'd be very easy to implement a "No vassals on the council!" rule for Chinese Imperial rulers from a scripting standpoint it feels like it'd make things quite a bit worse for player vassals (who already are restricted based on skills), and I think this is a case of gameplay and (subjective) fun needing to take precedence over historical accuracy.
Fully agree. Unfortunately the setup of the game as a European feudalism simulator places a heavy focus on being landed, and the player themself can only play as a landed character, so forcing the player to play as a local governor (which was very weak in the Song dynasty, about a third of the game's runtime) and locking out the option to be influential in court sounds unfun whichever way it's implemented. Much like the concession of child vassals and dynastic succession, sometimes historical inaccuracies are needed because the game's mechanics almost prohibit any other option from being functional for players to interact with.
I will, however, note that working on Tianxia and playing with Tianxia active is not remotely the same thing, so someone whose interest in "development" could be summed up as "I want to play with new stuff sooner!" is not the kind of person we're looking for, and though there's certainly need for brainstorming from time to time we're looking for people that can (and want to) implement stuff rather than come up with things for others to implement; ideas are welcome, but they don't make the "Stuff to implement" pile any smaller.
Yeah, developing is like 99% sorting out ideas and writing code. I don't really expect to have my playtime increased (if anything, I expect to be spending less time playing campaigns and more time "load game, check that the new code hasn't caused any catastrophic errors, close game" or running observer or whatever other debugging needs to be done).
Regarding how to become involved, I posted a bunch of questions that would be good for prospective Tianxia devs to answer here.
My apologies, it seems like the link is broken (it seems to contain a Tianxia localisation string?) Could you please PM me with the questions/correct link?
 
Almost precisely what I was hoping for. More interactions involving skills that are not "be constantly at war" would be nice, especially since I agree that it is extremely ahistorical for Chinese vassals to be fighting wars at all in times when the Emperor's authority was high and there were no major foreign threats (which, presumably, should be the case for quite some amount of game time if the systems approximate the historical setup correctly). I think having more events and possibly other systems to encourage a well-developed peaceful bureaucratic realm is a good direction and will improve QOL in China, Korea and (possibly, I'm less familiar with that area) Japan.

I'd say the peaceful bureaucratic stuff primarily is aimed at China and various Chinese pretenders, Korea (Silla, Goguryeo, Balhae, Goryeo, Hubaekje; Tamna also get the stuff the big kingdoms get, but they've not been a focus), Vietnam (Dai Viet, but not Champa; the latter was far more Indianized), and Dali/Nanzhao/Da Yining, as those largely use the same stuff (though Korea has some unique stuff due to the Hwarang and the Muist flavour, which they can access on top of the general bureaucratic stuff the other areas get; I'd like to make the others more distinct as well, but so far we're not really there).

Japan (and Ryukyu) will potentially get some related mechanics, but as the situation there is quite different (for one thing, overthrowing the Imperial Family is simply not done, while overthrowing a Chinese dynasty is far from unthinkable) and as Japan is supposed to be somewhat likely to slide towards feudalism due to that being historical (and will be considerably more Japanese Feudal in later starts once they've been fully implemented) they need to be a bit different, and as far as reasonable I want to avoid a situation where Japan ends up being "China minus" (or "China plus") due to getting a smaller subset of Chinese mechanics.

Once again, I think this is a good direction and possibly makes for an interesting realm management game in peacetime (how do you want to balance your local governors, your councillors, your spouse/concubines and your eunuchs so that they stay at each other's throats and not yours). Given how much this balancing act is a theme in Chinese history (and histriography), as well as the ensuing chaos when one party gains too much power, I think this is interesting. (And I presume the Chinese imperial influence laws teased for 14.0.0 are part of this idea?)

The influence laws are indeed part of this, though in 14.0.0 there's not going to be very much flavour surrounding them; there's some events concerning members of an interest group approaching the ruler about wanting more power (and various ways of dealing with that, and various consequences if you refuse), some events about interest groups trying to gain influence at the expense of others (and the liege potentially undermining both), and of course the "I'll have a vassal deal with the uppity eunuchs/courtiers with extreme prejudice!" (or "I'm an uppity vassal who takes the initiative to deal with troublesome elements at court that stand in my way") event chain, and the old Grand Chancellor stuff has been tweaked slightly to account for the new laws, but aside from a small number of events relevant to the eunuchs there's nothing else that's been added at this point, and while it's possible something more will be done I don't currently feel it's an immediate priority (especially not with there being several things left on the "Must be done before 14.0.0 can be released" list).

Yeah, developing is like 99% sorting out ideas and writing code. I don't really expect to have my playtime increased (if anything, I expect to be spending less time playing campaigns and more time "load game, check that the new code hasn't caused any catastrophic errors, close game" or running observer or whatever other debugging needs to be done).

Good; I just feel that's something to be upfront about.

My apologies, it seems like the link is broken (it seems to contain a Tianxia localisation string?) Could you please PM me with the questions/correct link?

That's what I get for multitasking... I've updated the link and will PM you momentarily.
 
Some minor updates about work since the last proper dev diary:

- A number of historical Grand Chancellors now have bloodlines, courtesy of Kang Youwei.

- Min and She characters no longer think they belong to the illustrious "Smith" dynasty, courtesy of shenxy13.

- There's now a lot more options or naming Chinese imperial dynasties, primarily using the names of various earlier Chinese states (e.g. Lu).

- A new "Become a famous writer" ambition has been added, requiring you to write books with a combined artefact quality of >= 10. Characters that finish a book when having the ambition are somewhat likely to have a shorter duration for the "Out of inspiration" modifier (if only that was true...), making it a bit more achievable... though the ambition has the potential downside of being impossible to cancel early.

- Work has started on adding a bunch of new religions, though it's at a very, very surface level for the most part (most of them have a single deity appropriately named PLACEHOLDER at present, to name one very obvious thing that has to be changed). They'll be brought up to at least the (still very flavourless) level of e.g. the Sanamahi religion prior to 14.0.0's release (holy orders, unique Doctrines if pagan, holy sites, crusade weights, intermarriages; that sort of thing), and will get more flavour over time where feasible (unfortunately, it's not always possible to find sufficient information to give religions much in the way of uniqueness).

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Unfortunately, most things being worked on right now are either not very exciting to show off or that aren't in a state that makes it reasonable to show them off just yet, but there are some things that'll be in 14.0.0 that definitely deserve a proper dev diary.
 
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Anyway to gain access to older versions of the mod?

I don't play with holy fury and play 2.8.3.4 (to me Holy Fury is imbalanced and Catholics are way too OP). I was hoping to download the pre-holy fury version of this mod.

Thank you!
 
Anyway to gain access to older versions of the mod?

I don't play with holy fury and play 2.8.3.4 (to me Holy Fury is imbalanced and Catholics are way too OP). I was hoping to download the pre-holy fury version of this mod.

Thank you!

Not really; we didn't have a public release anywhere between 2.7-ish and 3.2-ish (certainly none for 2.8.X), we've cleaned up many redundant dev backups that far back (and I don't know if any of those that still exist would be in a good spot; we certainly didn't have "Stable internal dev build X" back in the day...), and the mod that far back was in a much worse shape in several ways (e.g. the history files were a complete mess in many places, and we had basically no flavour or mechanics to speak of).
 
Hello there,

I recently picked up CK2 again for nostalgia's sake, and I vaguely remembered this mod being a thing. It was quite the surprise to see Tianxia still going strong. Congratulations are in order. And the level of sophistication is very impressive; it feels almost like a PDX DLC in its attention to detail. China/Japan in particular, but seeing Southeast Asia fleshed out as well was a pleasant surprise. I've run across a few minor bugs (missing localizations/incorrect events), but overall it's a polished experience.

@Silversweeper, you deserve a great deal of credit for your dev diaries. Not only are you putting in the work, you're also taking the time to explain everything with patience and eloquence. I write code for a living, and I know that technically CK2 is mod-friendly, but even so you're putting more effort into a side project than I do for my job. If you were my teammate I'd be scared about perf reviews. Even your commit messages are organized!

I created this account just to say well done, and if you knew how lazy I am, you'd know that's high praise indeed.
 
Hello there,

I recently picked up CK2 again for nostalgia's sake, and I vaguely remembered this mod being a thing. It was quite the surprise to see Tianxia still going strong. Congratulations are in order. And the level of sophistication is very impressive; it feels almost like a PDX DLC in its attention to detail.

Thanks; I'd say the overall quality goal is "Comparable to [vanilla area/religion/etc.] or better", though whether things will end up closer to the Catholic end of the scale or the African end of the scale will vary depending on available information and other factors (and whether what we add is good will of course be highly subjective).

(I'd also say that trying to do things on that level has given me a better understanding of the amount of work that actually was required for some DLC, the kind of mistakes that are likely to happen, the feasibility of various things, and the difficulty of balancing for assorted factors (fun, accuracy, performance, etc.; I certainly don't agree with every vanilla design decision, but I can often understand why some decisions were made even when I disagree with them... and while I'm of the opinion that an official Far East expansion for CK2 would have been nice and that many that argued against it (and that are opposing it in CK3) made highly questionable claims regarding the feasibility, I can definitely say it'd have been a lot of work.)

China/Japan in particular, but seeing Southeast Asia fleshed out as well was a pleasant surprise.

I'd personally say SEAsia is one of the less developed areas, at least flavour-wise, though as many rulers there get Hindu/Buddhist flavour from vanilla it's perhaps less noticeable than the lack of flavour in some other areas.

As with pretty much any othet area (outside Africa) that we've added, suggestions for improvements would be welcome, though we might not be able to implement even good ideas in the short term due to there being a large number of things to work on.

I've run across a few minor bugs (missing localizations/incorrect events), but overall it's a polished experience.

Feel free to bug report even small stuff like that (ideally with a screenshot showing the event id using "charinfo"); it's very hard to catch localization and misfired events with an automated check, and unreported bugs only get fixed if we chance upon them, which might not happen; some things only fire very rarely or only involve characters living up to certain conditions (e.g. an Ainu-exclusive event could be horribly wrong, but you'd never spot it playing as a non-Ainu character), and the amount of playing and playtesting that is reasonable to do from the dev side is pretty limited.

@Silversweeper, you deserve a great deal of credit for your dev diaries. Not only are you putting in the work, you're also taking the time to explain everything with patience and eloquence.

Well, I'm of the opinion that it probably saves time in the long run to not have to answer as many "How does this work?" questions and that it is more likely to result in feedback than vague updates, so it's in my interest to be detailed...

I write code for a living, and I know that technically CK2 is mod-friendly, but even so you're putting more effort into a side project than I do for my job. If you were my teammate I'd be scared about perf reviews. Even your commit messages are organized!

Honestly, the commits are partially that detailed to make it easier to write patch notes and to keep track of just what I worked on when (useful for the "This happened recently" updates), as well as keeping others on the team in the loop... but as I suspect that there's a non-zero amount of people that might check the commit history for sneak peaks I also put the occasional funny thing there. Of course, some stuff gets wholly or partially reverted, while stuff in dev diaries generally is much firmer, so I don't really encourage treating the commit history like official communication.

I created this account just to say well done, and if you knew how lazy I am, you'd know that's high praise indeed.

Thanks; it's nice to know that the work is appreciated, particularly as it's hard to say how many people are interested in the mod overall (though, seeing as I'm interested in getting the Tianxia stuff into the game for my own enjoyment, I'm unlikely to stop working on it, even if I might occasionally want or need to do other things).
 
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Some further work on (extremely WIP) new religions:

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@Silversweeper you mentioned bug reports, but for whatever reason quoting is flagged as "spam or spam-like elements?" Here I was wondering about attachments or length, but no, it's the quote that's going too far.

I have one to hand that popped up today; the triggered events for Mandate of Heaven increase/decrease are flipped. Attached is the fixed version, which just swaps the lines 1420/1484 for Tianxia/events/soh_mandate_of_heaven_events. There were a couple others that aren't fresh in my memory, but all of them were similar stuff and easy enough to fix.



While I was playing as the EoC though, I did get the impression that it's a bit too easy to snowball the starting position (Charlemagne, in my case) and blob to obscene levels. Like with Ming in EU4, you start out as #1 and almost need to deliberately do dumb stuff in order to lose that spot. There are of course anti-blobbing mechanics (EU4's AE and CK2's Threat) but it's fairly easy to game them such that they just slow down your blobbing without making it any less inevitable. Personally I think that those mechanics are at best a band-aid to the universal issue that comes up whenever you translate real-world historical governance—which got dramatically less coherent/coordinated the larger a realm grew—into a video game with instant visibility/communication/control across your entire realm. That being said, it’s not such a big deal when a huge and powerful empire is the player’s reward for struggling and scheming their way to the top. It is, however, a bit of a snoozefest when you already start out as such.

Now I’m aware that the Tang dynasty was a golden age for China, and China was indeed quite huge and powerful during that time period (not so much in 767 what with An Lushan), but the amount of direct control exerted by the EoC, who was ultimately one guy in the capital, was considerably less centralized than CK2 depicts. The contemporary problem of timely communication and the necessary limits that imposed on the capital micromanaging the frontier regions, plus the whole problem of conquering/integrating different people from different cultures who speak different languages and worship different gods put a soft limit on how big China could ever get. Even under highly expansionist dynasties like the Yuan/Qing, the same centrifugal forces prevented China from growing much farther than its modern borders. But obviously CK2 wouldn’t be a very fun game if there were hard limits on how far you could grow, and I’ve already talked about how I view PDX’s band-aid approach as inadequate.

So what’s the solution? I was poking about in the code, and I’d like to propose an idea that may or may not be feasible to consider as part of whatever China-focused patch that comes down the pipe sometime in the future: Replace the EoC’s ability to declare war outside of China proper with a reworked Western Protectorate from the Jade Dragon DLC. Call it the Anxi Protectorate, and assign it the job of conquering on China’s behalf.

To brainstorm the mechanics of it, in broad strokes: It would be a permanent tributary of the EoC, with Tianxia’s Confucian Bureaucracy government type (not vanilla’s, which you can’t play cause republic) and a modified Imperial Elective succession law where the EoC gets a big vote. The Protector-General would have a Grace bonus, plus access to special Grace requests for money/soldiers. The EoC would get a decision to sack the current Protector-General for a high cost in prestige and mandate, plus a decision to reassign courtiers or banish prisoners to the Anxi Protectorate for some cost in gold. Vassals of the EoC would have a Grace request to be transferred to the Anxi Protectorate. Vassals of the Protector-General (and the man himself) would have a costly Grace request to petition the EoC for his elective backing, and an even more costly request to petition that the current Protector-General be sacked. The Protector-General could declare war as normal, but could also be forced to declare war via decision from the EoC. The Protector-General is allowed to make tributaries, but those tributaries are subject to being promoted/annexed by the EoC as if they were his own. The Protector-General’s own vassals are also subject to being promoted/annexed by the EoC at a significantly higher cost. Vassals of the Protector-General have an expensive Grace request to swear fealty to the EoC. The Protector-General can rebel for independence against the EoC if he gets too strong or sees an opportunity; if successful he creates a pretender empire and all special interactions with EoC are disabled.

A rough roadmap:

  1. Change: Remove all non-Chinese CBs for the EoC
    1. Implementation: Something like can_use {NAND = {is_chinese_emperor_trigger = yes NOT = { region = world_china}}} for all CBs within Tianxia\common\cb_types\00_cb_types.txt and Tianxia\common\cb_types\01_cb_types.txt
  2. Change: Rework the Western Protectorate into the Anxi Protectorate
    1. Implementation: Revert Tianxia\history\titles\e_china_west_governor to the vanilla version, then set government = chinese_vassal_government, and set_tribute_suzerain = {who = e_china, type = chinese_military_protectorate }
  3. Change: Define a new succession law
    1. Implementation: In Tianxia\common\laws\succession_law.txt add a new law called succ_military_governor whose potential holder must be e_china_west_governor
  4. Change: Define new succession voting
    1. Implementation: In Tianxia\common\succession_voting\succession_voting_soh.txt, add a new system based on byzantine_elective where the EoC is a new elector with a huge share of the votes.
      1. The Protector-General would be the “Byzantine Emperor” here and also have a disproportionate share, but smaller than the EoC
      2. Potentially some scope issues including the EoC, might require some shenanigans like giving him a strong claim on e_china_west_governor
      3. Imperial Elective seems to broadly fit since the Protector-General is a military posting that should favor martial candidates, but some tweaking of the voting preferences (Byzantine/Greek/Roman swapped out for corresponding Chinese ones) would be required
  5. Change: Define a new tributary type
    1. Implementation: In Tianxia\common\tributary_types\01_tributary_types_soh.txt add a new type called chinese_military_protectorate that is basically chinese_client_state with some tweaked stats
  6. Change: Define new Grace interactions for the Protector-General
    1. Implementation: In Tianxia\decisions\soh_grace_decisions.txt add an option for the Protector-General to request funds, like request_master_engineer_china but with the effect just wealth = whatever
      1. Relatively cheap, under the assumption that the Protectorate will support disproportionately large army vis-à-vis its holdings/economy
      2. The AI will presumably need its own version of this decision
    2. Add another request for the Protector-General to ask for troops, like a reversed version supply_horses_china which spawns event troops
      1. Relatively cheap, but should have high maintenance or some other limiting factor that prevents building up large armies
      2. The AI will presumably need its own version of this decision
  7. Change: Define new decisions for the EoC
    1. Implementation: In Tianxia\decisions\soh_china_various_decisions.txt add a new decision to sack the Protector-General
      1. Definitely a tricky one, both in terms of scoping the Protector-General and how to disinherit the current holder of e_china_west_governor without killing the character
        1. Try leveraging order_to_take_vows from Tianxia\decisions\dynasty_decisions.txt?
        2. Need to renounce claims and titles though, worth looking at the order_to_join_holy_order decision from vanilla in HFP_holy_order_decisions.txt (what does banish = yes do?)
      2. Should be very expensive prestige-wise, seriously damage mandate, and have a long cooldown
    2. Add another decision based on order_to_take_vows which would assign courtiers and prisoners of the EoC to the Protector-General
      1. High opinion malus, people are angry at being exiled from court and sent to the frontier to fight barbarians
      2. Should cost a small amount of gold, relatively spammable for the EoC to reinforce the Protector-General in times of need
    3. Add another decision ordering the Protector-General to start an invasion
      1. Based on vanilla’s Major Invasion (JD.10103) from events\jd_chinese_invasion_events.txt
      2. Should be extremely expensive with a very long cooldown, forces the Protector-General to declare war and spawns a doomstack
      3. Quality of doomstack depends on mandate level, the same way vanilla depends on China’s Status and Policy
        1. Since the code for this is complicated, a lazy approach would just be to map 1-to-1, e.g. mandate_of_heaven_5 (Unquestioned) maps to Golden Age/Expansionist while mandate_of_heaven_3 (Average) maps to Open/Stable, and mandate_of_heaven_1 (Lost) can’t launch invasions at all
      4. If the Protector-General is losing, the EoC receives a decision to send reinforcements at some additional cost, based on china_sends_reinforcements from decisions\jd_decisions.txt
      5. White peace is disallowed
      6. If the Protector-General wins the war he is rewarded with loads of Grace
      7. If the Protector-General loses the war, he is automatically sacked (to force players to actually fight and/or because he’s a disgrace who couldn’t win with a free doomstack)
    4. Modify the existing decisions involving ask_to_increase_tributary_tier (all variations for player/china/ai) from Tianxia\decisions\soh_grace_decisions.txt
      1. Implementation: Move the only_independent = yes check into an OR block next to AND = {top_liege = {has_landed_title = e_china_west_governor}} so the EoC can tributarize and annex vassals of the Protector-General
      2. Add is_tributary = {type = offmap} as another option in the potential and allow blocks, so the EoC can take the Protector-General’s tributaries for himself
        1. Tweak offmap tributary stats as needed for balance
  8. Change: Define new Grace requests for vassals of the EoC (assuming the expanded Grace interactions outlined by @Silversweeper go through and vassals get Grace with the EoC)
    1. Implementation: In Tianxia\decisions\soh_china_various_decisions.txt add a new decision based on vassalize_or_take_under_title and open to all vassals of the EoC, top_liege = { is_chinese_emperor_trigger = yes}, which transfers vassals to the Protector-General
      1. Scope might be tricky here
  9. Change: Define new Grace requests for vassals of the Protector-General
    1. Implementation: In Tianxia\decisions\soh_china_various_decisions.txt add a brand new request to ask for the Emperor’s votes, needs to be written from scratch
      1. Don’t know much about voting mechanics. More investigation required.
      2. Protector-General himself should have this request
      3. Should be very expensive
    2. Add another request to sack the current Protector-General
      1. EoC can refuse, at the cost of significant mandate
        1. AI could calculate relative grace of petitioner to Protector-General or something
      2. If accepted, triggers the same event as EoC deciding to sack the Protector-General
      3. Protector-General himself should have this request, as a form of resignation
      4. Should be very expensive
    3. Add another request to swear fealty
      1. Open to all vassals of the Protector-General, top_liege = {has_landed_title = e_china_west_governor}, and based on vassalize_or_take_under_title
      2. Should be very expensive
  10. Change: Disable special interactions if the Protector-General gains independence
    1. Implementation: Add a check for suzerain = {character = {is_chinese_emperor_trigger = yes} on all new decisions
    2. Existing pretender mechanics should take care of the rest
      1. Might be worth considering repurposing the vanilla dismantle_pretender_china_cb for the EoC to crush the rebels and appoint a new Protector-General

In theory, these changes would promote a more indirect approach towards waging war as the EoC—instead of you personally raising armies and leading troops on the frontier you are setting overall objectives and funding the war effort from way back in the capital. The actual mud-and-blood part of it is left to the guys a thousand miles away. And while these newly conquered territories can be integrated into China proper, it’s a slow and expensive bureaucratic process. Mechanically, it’s my attempt at designing an anti-blobbing mechanism that’s more believable and effective than vanilla Threat by reproducing some of the real-world issues of coordinating an ancient empire. While I first approached this issue from the perspective of the EoC, I also think it’s important to support playing as the Protector-General; it always bothered me a bit that you couldn’t play as the Western Protectorate in Jade Dragon. Hopefully the aforementioned changes would create an interesting experience of playing as a semi-autonomous military official, with both significant advantages and drawbacks to being dependent on the Emperor’s goodwill.

Naturally, it would probably be a good idea to toggle all this functionality behind a game rule. And as a distant hypothetical, if this works and works well, it might be worth considering extrapolating the concept onto the other historical Protectorates—Anbei (Northern), Annan (Southern), Andong (Eastern). As is probably obvious, I’ve been making some changes myself and am reasonably confident that the final product is doable, in no small part because there's a lot of preexisting features that can be repurposed or otherwise leveraged. Of course, there’s still a considerable gap between what I’d personally consider workable and a mod which is production-ready for use by the general public. Doubtless I’ve missed some details in this writeup (considerations around diplomatic range, for instance) and all the specific numbers would need to be balanced carefully. That being said, I hope I’ve at least presented an interesting idea and a decent outline of the substantial, but not impossible, amount of work it would require.
 

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We will not be reimplementing the WP or anything similar, nor will we prevent China from holding or taking land outside China proper. We might review some CBs for CI and relsted governments moving forward, but unless you're playing with Border Conquests and other JD CBs active (which you can opt out of) China is already rather limited when it comes to CBs outside China proper, so in my experience (looking at a large number of observer games from 769/867/936/1066 across multiple versions, all with Defensive Pacts disabled (I find that mechanic to be extremely poorly implemented)) they tend to be very poor at expanding elsewhere (outside setting up tributaries) unless they get claims (somewhat unreliable; we might look at limiting their ability to press others' claims) or the Liberate Nomad Duchy CB is on the table (fairly rare). China did attempt to expand historically during (and adjacent to) our time period from time to time, and though they didn't do terribly well historically CK2 as a whole has a problem with historical circumstances preventing certain conquests not being modelled well and blobs not breaking up, so we're not really alone there. I will, however, say that we have a few things on the way that are relevant to this and that don't exactly help China that should be in dev diaries beforr 14.0.0...

As for the MoH bug, we'll not be releasing any further bugfixes prior to 14.0.0 (not even tiny ones provided by others). Due to some internal changes, I don't think the bug will be an issue in 14.0.0, however.
 
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Fair enough, if you don't perceive Chinese blobbing as a problem there's clearly not much point in me offering a solution. I trust you won't mind if I continue with the implementation for my own personal use? I've made enough progress that I'd be reluctant to abandon it.

Just to clarify, it's my experience that the old trick of find claimant->send gift->buy favor->invite to court always works for at least one (usually more) of the many claimants for at least one (usually more) of the many neighbors. Then it's a simple matter of cycling through neighbors and pressing claims as they come up. To be clear, this is hardly a China-exclusive strategy, but the financial cost of sending gifts and buying favors en masse can be a problem for smaller realms whereas the EoC always has more cash than he knows what to do with. Same with winning wars, the EoC has lots of levies and lots of mercs. And voila, the blob grows ever larger. (It might be worth noting that the AI does not, to the best of my knowledge, employ this tactic; it presumably wouldn't appear in observer games).

Blobbing is arguably intended to be the endgame for CK2 in any case, but I found playing Tianxia's EoC a bit too similar to playing EU4's Ming—start ahead, stay ahead, get bored from the lack of challenge. And that's a real shame, because there are some nifty unique mechanics that go along with being the EoC that have clearly been the focus of considerable dev work. Now I'm aware that my experience is not necessarily generalizable, but I thought big-nation-blobbing was common enough that it was at least worth proposing a potential fix for this specific use case; that is to say, a somewhat-historically-justifiable and fun-to-play fix which encourages alternative playstyles for an otherwise big nation blob from the start, rather than deliberately gimping the EoC in particular by hardcoding him to be broke/hated/crazy in order to create an artificial challenge (which I've also tried, it certainly makes things harder). Restrictive changes are easy enough to implement, but constructive ones are a lot more fulfilling.

In any case, I've said my piece. If you disagree, this is of course your project and I look forward to seeing what comes out of Tianxia in the future.
 
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You can do whatever you want for your own personal use; we have no way of knowing unless you decide to share the work, and we can't really stop you even if we know. I would suggest perhaps waiting until after 14.0.0, though, as that's likely to break your stuff due to assorted changes.

We do, however, require that anyone seeking to make a public Tianxia submod reusing our script or that wishes to make use of something from Tianxia in another public mod ask first and make it clear what they intend to use, as some of our stuff isn't ours to share, we are not going to give people basically the whole mod, and we might refuse on other grounds as well; for example, if the mod(der) has a history of disrespecting the modding rules, is planning to do something Tianxia doesn't want to be associated with, is very rude, or is expressing racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/otherwise highly disagreeable sentiments, I would not grant permission regardless of whether the request was reasonable on its own.
 
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Sounds good to me, I have no plans to share my changes publicly. Frankly, I never had the patience to polish and publish a "real" mod despite rewriting large chunks of code in various games. I prefer to hack together a minimum viable product before fixing any remaining issues as they surface (I can never get away with it at work, unfortunately). Crashes and impromptu debugging never bothered me, though I can understand why that would be a dealbreaker for most people.

Do you have a tenative release schedule for 14.0.0?
 
Sounds good to me, I have no plans to share my changes publicly. Frankly, I never had the patience to polish and publish a "real" mod despite rewriting large chunks of code in various games. I prefer to hack together a minimum viable product before fixing any remaining issues as they surface (I can never get away with it at work, unfortunately). Crashes and impromptu debugging never bothered me, though I can understand why that would be a dealbreaker for most people.

Do you have a tenative release schedule for 14.0.0?

Less than a year and more than a month from now; I have a better idea than that, but it's too soon to share more.
 
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Trying this out, and I'm enjoying it. You did a good job trying to match the feel of the vanilla game.

I've noticed that for some reason my Buddhist chaplains are always really slow to convert provinces, even when they have 20+ Learning. My current one has 29 Learning and is still listed as only 5% chance a year to convert. More than two decades have gone by, and no conversion yet, so it's not an erroneous tooltip.

It's usually Taoist regions I send them to try and convert, that or Shinto. Buddhist and Taoist don't have any "slow to convert others" or "slow to be converted" effects that I can see in the files, so I'm baffled. What am I missing?
 
Trying this out, and I'm enjoying it. You did a good job trying to match the feel of the vanilla game.

I've noticed that for some reason my Buddhist chaplains are always really slow to convert provinces, even when they have 20+ Learning. My current one has 29 Learning and is still listed as only 5% chance a year to convert. More than two decades have gone by, and no conversion yet, so it's not an erroneous tooltip.

It's usually Taoist regions I send them to try and convert, that or Shinto. Buddhist and Taoist don't have any "slow to convert others" or "slow to be converted" effects that I can see in the files, so I'm baffled. What am I missing?

A bunch of religions are flagged as being hard to convert (I don't remember if Taoists are amomg them) as they historically survives past the era (unlike European paganism being gone from the map), and some specific religions also have a harder time converting each other (e.g. Shinto <-> Buddhist) as there was a fair bit of coexistence. Those are the most likely explanations, outside the game rule for slower conversion.
 
I still don't know where to access the Permanent Regent's special abilities. I mean, I just learned that you have to click on a vassal of the Tenno to transfer that vassal to you. Where are the other decisions?