Ubicorn

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And I also have a question: are you planning to add mohism to the mod as a playable religion? I know that this teaching began to decline long before the first available starting date and that this teaching became less relevant with the unification of China. but anyway.
 

Silversweeeper

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And I also have a question: are you planning to add mohism to the mod as a playable religion? I know that this teaching began to decline long before the first available starting date and that this teaching became less relevant with the unification of China. but anyway.

Considering that it became irrelevant so far back that it's unlikely we'll even need it for the history files (it gets messy to add people with dates adjusted to account for the fact that we can't have negative dates, so chances are a bunch of people will be skipped) and that it'd be yet another religion to balance and make unique in China, I'd say it's pretty unlikely that it'll be added, at least not until a bunch of other things that are rather more relevant in the CK2 era have been added (and there's no shortage of such things at present).
 

Nessel

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I just got to know this mod yesterday! This is truly amazing, really trying best to represent the East side of civilization. When is the last date that the mod supports right now? I realized that after 1100 some maps in China starts to be unoccupied (probably not implemented).
 

Silversweeeper

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I7 just got to know this mod yesterday! This is truly amazing, really trying best to represent the East side of civilization. When is the last date that the mod supports right now? I realized that after 1100 some maps in China starts to be unoccupied (probably not implemented).

If there is a large hole in the map (or several), chances are you're running the wrong version (most likely 12.0.0, since that's unfortunately the one that's prominently displayed in the opening post). The correct one is 13.0.1, linked in my signature.

We're (as of 13.0.0) supporting dates up to (and including) 1127.4.20 (chosen because it was when the short-lived state of Da Chu was founded), with the caveat that many individual dates are untested since we can't really check them all. It's possible things will run fine if you start in a later date (and, as of 13.0.0, all dates should be filled in at at least the top liege level everywhere, even if there might be errors in places), but it's very much not recommended, and as the disclaimer you'll get (as of 13.0.0) when launching a game in any of those dates tells you we're not going to bother fixing bugs you encounter using them anytime soon since we need to prioritize issues with the dates we actually support and work on the things that are within the scope of the next release.
 

Silversweeeper

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Dev diary 59 - Some religion changes + non-Hokke Fujiwaras

This will be a short dev diary, covering two topics.

Religion changes:

There have been a number of small changes made to religions recently that might be of interest.

Muist:

The Muist holy site formerly located in Hanseong (Seoul) has been moved to Gyeongju. This was primarily done to put some more emphasis on Silla's capital and to make the site a bit more vulnerable if Japan decides that launching a Rising Sun Subjugation for Silla. Given that both counties start under the same top liege in every start date, it'll not make reformation harder if you start in the relevant realm, though it might make things a bit harder for Goguryeo and Balhae.

Additionally, the unique Muist Doctrine has been changed from Animistic + Meritocratic to Animistic + Self-Improvement. This was done to put more emphasis on Buddhist influences (Buddhism does of course have the Meritocracy stuff, but the religion is the only religion that has the "Reject X" ambitions by default) and because it felt like a good idea to have the Hwarang synergy as part of the unique Doctrine. You can of course still pick Meritocracy separately if you want it, and assuming nothing else invalidates it the unique Doctrine will still give you access to Confucian Bureaucracy.

Taoism:

The Taoist holy sites have all been moved. The new ones are Fuyang (locaion of Luyi, the birthplace of Laozi (or however you wish to spell his name)), Shang (location of Mount Longhu, one of the Four Sacred Taoist Mountains), Shiyang (location of the Wudang Mountains, one of the Four Sacred Taoist Mountains), Chongzhou (location of Mount Qingcheng, one of the Four Sacred Taoist Mountains), and Huangshan (location of Mount Qiyun, one of the Four Sacred Taoist Mountains).

Additionally, seeing as the Taoist religion doesn't have the inherent monthly Grace bonus it de facto has in vanilla it has been given an inherent +1 piety while at peace, subject to change. This should make the religion slightly more attractive.

Confucianism:

Work has begun on adding the religion. It's not far along (and what you can see below is very not final), and -- as mentioned previously -- it's not considered a priority for the next version, but it exists.

ck2_1.png


In addition to the inherent features shown above, it currently has +5 dynasty opinion, which may or may not change. Branch traits are being considered -- probably Traditionalist and Neo-Confucian -- but just which modifiers to add (aside from a standard -5 opinion of the other branch) has yet to be decided.

The Confucian holy sites are:

- Jining (location of Qufu, where Confucius was born, and Zoucheng, where Mencius was born)
- Chang'an (capital of Tang, location of what now is known as the Stele Forest)
- Zhenjiang (location of Nanjing, capital of the Six Dynasties, location of the Nanjing Fuzimiao)
- Dai La (location of the earliest Confucian temple in Vietnam)
- Hanseong (capital of Joseon, which had Confucian as its state ideology)


Non-Hokke-Fujiwaras:

There's not a lot to say here other than that the non-Hokke branches of the Fujiwara clan have been slightly expanded. Given that they are the smaller and less important branches of the clan, a bunch of work remains before the clan as a while is done. One of the more interesting additions is probably a unique death reason.

ck2_2.png



As before, dev diaries will likely remain infrequent. The previously mentioned polishing of Korea and the Ainu religion will get done soonish, along with more work on the Fujiwaras, but larger changes and new additions will still have to wait a while since the old stuff still needs to be adjusted in various ways.
 
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Jayavarman

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Very good.
 

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I've been quite thoroughly enjoying the mod so far, but I feel like there are too many quality 5 artifacts introduced to the game. I can understand the significance of the Imperial Regalia of Japan, but the HRE's Regalia also consists of 4 pieces (Crown, Sceptre, Orb, and Sword), but only the Crown is actually in the game. The entire Christiandom of Europe has 6 or 7 quality 5 artifacts, yet Japan having 12 quality 5 artifacts really seem to tip the balance of the game. How about just having the Magatama in-game, and lower the quality of most swords to 4? Even the sword of Muhammad has the quality of 4.
 

Silversweeeper

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I've been quite thoroughly enjoying the mod so far, but I feel like there are too many quality 5 artifacts introduced to the game. I can understand the significance of the Imperial Regalia of Japan, but the HRE's Regalia also consists of 4 pieces (Crown, Sceptre, Orb, and Sword), but only the Crown is actually in the game. The entire Christiandom of Europe has 6 or 7 quality 5 artifacts, yet Japan having 12 quality 5 artifacts really seem to tip the balance of the game. How about just having the Magatama in-game, and lower the quality of most swords to 4? Even the sword of Muhammad has the quality of 4.

The quality (and stats; several artefacts have already been nerfed internally, and I might do a second pass) is something that conceivably can be changed, though in some cases it makes sense for things to be rather fancy; for example, the Tenka-Goken are supposedly the five best swords ever (according to some subjective Japanese judgement), so taking that claim at face value they should be better than any T4 sword forged by a weaponsmith by some margin, and if we accept the Imperial Regalia's divine origin as true then Kusanagi should probably beat your average ceremonial weapon by some margin (and the other two pieces presumably shouldn't be terrible artefacts either).

As far as I can remember, quality by itself is rarely important (the only instance I can think of off the top of my head where it is checked is when sending stuff to China, which obviously involves losing the artefact), so I don't think it has a noticeable impact on balance by itself. The stats could have some impact, but a good number of the artefacts don't spawn at the start of the game, and as the characters that can find them normally lose out on some other powerful stuff (e.g. holy wars and GHWs) a slight edge in some areas (e.g. duels) due to artefacts might not put the relevant characters ahead on the whole.

Regarding vanilla's choice to leave out some stuff, I don't think we'll be removing stuff because of that. Our goal is to implement our areas in as (subjectively) good a fashion as possible given various constraints (e.g. the core assumption that is that you always play as a landed character from the same dynasty) rather than to always implement things the same way as vanilla, and considering vanilla is pretty lopsided in various areas and frequently has given Catholics (and other Christians, to a lesser extent) considerably more stuff than others I don't really think it's a big problem if they're a bit worse off when it comes to artefacts (though if it wasn't for our "Don't mess with vanilla without a good reason" rule I'd probably add some more stuff for them since there are some pretty good options...).
 

ImaTomato

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Tenka-Goken are supposedly the five best swords ever (according to some subjective Japanese judgement), so taking that claim at face value they should be better than any T4 sword forged by a weaponsmith by some margin,
Sure but modern metalurgy test do show that japanese steel wasn't as pure or good as steels made in india or medieval europe.


There is sadly a lot of nonsense and pseudo science about japanese swords and their supposed mythical quality.
 

Silversweeeper

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Sure but modern metalurgy test do show that japanese steel wasn't as pure or good as steels made in india or medieval europe.


There is sadly a lot of nonsense and pseudo science about japanese swords and their supposed mythical quality.

I am aware that Japanese swords aren't as good as people like to claim (though just what the relation should be between the quality of the steel and PCS/etc. if there is a desire to correlate it is not really clear, particularly as durability isn't a stat tracked in CK2...), but there are a few other things to consider when implementing them:

- Even disregarding various indisputably supernatural stuff (e.g. DWs), nonsensical stuff (e.g. Secret Bears), and implausible alt history stuff (e.g. SI), CK2 has in many cases opted for the Rule of Cool rather than accuracy. This mod is no different, and I don't see any reason for it to be different.

- At least as far as weaponsmith-created artefacts go, vanilla has opted to be fairly balanced across the board; all T4 weapons give you +15 PCS regardless of the type of weapon and when/where it was forged, for example. If Japanese swords are added as a weaponsmith option for relevant characters (it's on my list as something I'd like to do), I think that they should be consistent in that regard, and thus the unique swords that supposedly beat other Japanese swords should be balanced to be somewhat better than a hypothetical T4 katana (or whatever kind of Japanese sword it might end up being; I'm aware not every Japanese sword is a katana) with stats comparable to other T4 weapons.

- If we start to balance based on scientific accuracy, I'd imagine that the expectation would be that we continue to do that, which would require additional research when adding assorted things. Quite frankly, the list of things to research is already quite long, so I'd prefer not to complicate it in this fashion. Additionally, our rule about not changing vanilla (outside some specific circumstances that don't cover this sort of thing) would mean we couldn't update vanilla to be more accurate with respect to itself, and things could thus still could be weird based on what we're balancing against (e.g. if a study shows that a longsword is 5 % better than a scimitar and 10 % better than a katana (in some regard) but vanilla treats scimitars and longswords as equally good, a 10 % worse katana will be too weak compared to a scimitar while a 5 % worse katana will be too strong compared to a longsword).

- It risks causing needless drama down the line. If I implement Japanese swords as X % worse than weapons created elsewhere, chances are someone will notice it and report it as a bug (whether based on "It's inconsistent!" or "Japanese swords are obviously better than other swords!"). If I (or someone else) reply "They should be worse!", it's not unlikely that that will be argued for a while, and it's possible assorted accusations ("You just hate Japan!", etc.) start being thrown around as part of that. I'd rather not derail the thread with that.
 

mrmastro

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Hello, first I would like to thank you for bringing this mod to the CK2 community. It's great to see that Asian history is explored and cherished, especially in a predominantly "Western" player base.

Secondly, I wanted to ask: does Japan have any special mechanics representing the infamous cloistered emperors rule (insei) or is it covered by the Regency mechanic ?
 

Silversweeeper

Ichi no Hito
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Does Japan have any special mechanics representing the infamous cloistered emperors rule (insei) or is it covered by the Regency mechanic ?

There are no such mechanics, and it's fairly likely we won't be adding anything related to it since the Japanese government stuff already is rather messy (particularly as vanilla isn't built with anything remotely similar in mind), since the Tenno already has a bunch of potentially unfun stuff to work around (and we can't always go for historical accuracy at the expense of fun), and since nearly all (I think there's one exception relevant to us...) cloistered emperors are unplayable after their historical abdication due to being unlanded (and a bunch are scripted as Buddhist monks, so their chances of becoming playable are pretty small...) and you thus only really would experience the system as someone that's being meddled with by the cloistered emperor (as "Your Permanent Regent forced you to abdicate!" most definitely isn't something that'll be added due to how unfun that would be).
 
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Gouverneur van Torkia
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I agree, under regency of some Fujiwara dude or under regency of your dad is the same in current CK2, both Tianxia and Vanilla gameplay.
So a cloistered emperor (Hōō) is pointless. Unless you model Hōō a de facto title holder, and making Tenno merely a minor/religious title.
In my previous modding, I make Tenno as the religious head of Japanese Buddhist, while holding de jure empire title of Japan, with regency enforced.
Abdicated to be a Hōō make me play as a regency free ruler, since these Fujiwara dude are now vassals of Tenno, not mine. And the only one vassal of mine is Tenno, until I died and repeat all over again.
It's quite nonsense but reality in middle ages Japan, and it's not familiar and unpleasant to average CK2 players.
 
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