Whizzer

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You might have disabled it with a game rule (I don't remember if it defaults to being disallowed for Muists or not).



Very strange. That event doesn't create a Catholic character (and is essentially a copy-paste of vanilla's pagan holy order creation events, with the religion and culture swapped), it only mentions "religion = catholic" in the one place (as a pre-trigger to make it fire for the Pope), and the holy order is also not scripted to be Catholic (so it's not conversion after creation)...
Looks like it might be related to this vanilla bug. It should be fixed in CleanSlate, if you want to source a fix.
 
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steveconnell

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I just want to post some feedback in regards to the new Hwarang society as there are some aspects to this society that are quite overpowered as well as some bugs.

1. Choosing lifestyle trait. When you level up enough you can take this decision and you can pick almost any lifestyle strait. At first I was quite chuffed that I could pick any favourite trait but it just felt too easy to take whatever I wanted without any effort. I not sure what to suggest but I think there should be some effort or cost required to select such traits.

2. When you reach the top of the society you can take the decision to raise a the righteous army. At first I thought it might be like vanilla raise honour guard if you are married to a Chinese prince but it isn't. For the cost of 500 devotion you get to have a new unit of 6300 men. This decision is spammable meaning so you can keep taking the decision as long as you have enough devotion. Therefore you can create a maintenance free army to keep forever to take on any Chinese empire or take on the Mongol empire when it swings around (it's non reinforcing but for 500 devotion you can just keep topping it up and never need to use retinues or raise levies ever again).
In my opinion this decision need to to be nerfed. Perhaps less men and can only use once per war. Once a war ends I think it best for this unit to disperse like with the vanilla Chinese honour guards.

3. Discourage factions decision needs to have cool down timer added once taken as you can spam this decision too.

4. In a previous comment I mentioned if reflecting on the trait to achieve patient you end up with kind. I also found that if you reflect to achieve kind you end up with humble.


2021-06-09_09-06-50.png
 
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Silversweeeper

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I just want to post some feedback in regards to the new Hwarang society as there are some aspects to this society that are quite overpowered as well as some bugs.

1. Choosing lifestyle trait. When you level up enough you can take this decision and you can pick almost any lifestyle strait. At first I was quite chuffed that I could pick any favourite trait but it just felt too easy to take whatever I wanted without any effort. I not sure what to suggest but I think there should be some effort or cost required to select such traits.

Outside of removing options (or outright replacing the power) there's not much that can be done, seeing as the cost and effort is consistent with other societies that let you pick a lifestyle (and consistent design is generally preferable).

2. When you reach the top of the society you can take the decision to raise a the righteous army. At first I thought it might be like vanilla raise honour guard if you are married to a Chinese prince but it isn't. For the cost of 500 devotion you get to have a new unit of 6300 men. This decision is spammable meaning so you can keep taking the decision as long as you have enough devotion. Therefore you can create a maintenance free army to keep forever to take on any Chinese empire or take on the Mongol empire when it swings around (it's non reinforcing but for 500 devotion you can just keep topping it up and never need to use retinues or raise levies ever again).
In my opinion this decision need to to be nerfed. Perhaps less men and can only use once per war. Once a war ends I think it best for this unit to disperse like with the vanilla Chinese honour guards.

It is intentional that you can get multiple armies and that they don't disband (except on inheritance; if they don't do that, it's a bug), but the cost could perhaps be increased, and the composition could perhaps be made even worse (they're already somewhat underwhelming when it comes to quality, as nearly half are LI and most of the rest is pikemen and archers). Spamming it is also a bit risky, seeing as you risk not having sufficient Devotion for other things (such as avoiding any attempt to make you step down as society leader), particularly once you get old enough that your Devotion income outside quests suffers.

Out of curiosity, how much monthly Devotion are you getting (a screenshot showing the breakdown would be helpful)? It's possible adjustments could be made to the gain, which would make spamming even less advisable...

3. Discourage factions decision needs to have cool down timer added once taken as you can spam this decision too.

It's intentionally spammable, seeing as it's not a full blocker (it reduces AI faction willingness by a factor of 4, comparable to the difference between a character being/not being Ambitious, and obviously having no effect on the player), and you once again risk not having Devotion for other things. I suppose the impact could be decreased a bit (especially for non-Hwarang), and/or the cost increased (though I believe it's already fairly expensive), but the leader of the Hwarang being able to leverage the first commandment of the Hwarang (loyalty to one's liege) to keep their subjects in line if they're not truly atrocious is intended, particularly as it is (or should be, at least) unlikely you'll be able to keep on being the leader for a long time due to age decreasing Devotion gain and other Hwarang being able to force you aside if you can't pay Devotion to prevent it.

4. In a previous comment I mentioned if reflecting on the trait to achieve patient you end up with kind. I also found that if you reflect to achieve kind you end up with humble.

It's the same bug with a different flavour, and should be fixed in the bugfix patch.
 

Silversweeeper

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The age penalty will keep on increasing until you're 100+ (assuming it is working as it should; I see the localization is broken, but the functionality hopefully isn't broken), so even if other factors remain the same the gain should become a bit less over time. Immortality is obviously very beneficial, but it's also not something every character can get (and you could potentially go an entire playthrough without it being achievable), so the gain from that is normally not something you can rely on.

Things might be slightly too high outside Immortality, but your character appears to be pretty good (Shrewd plus plenty of beneficial traits), and without Immortality you'd be making 219.6 Devotion per year (outside quests, but you'll only get one quest every other year or so, and with 150 Devotion per quest even instant completion is only about 75 extra Devotion per year), so constant uptime on Discourage Factions would cost nearly all of your Devotion income in that case.
 
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Silversweeeper

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How much is the Hwarang age penalty when you reach 100 years old?

-15. As mentioned in the dev diary about the society, the idea is that you either leave when you get older or accept having little real influence (represented by not being able to reliably use society powers with a decreasing Devotion income) in an organization that's supposed to be for young men (and, if you are the society leader, someone will likely ask you to step aside, which you can't put off forever).
 

zaeron

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Sorry for the slightly off-topic post but I'm wondering if anyone here plays this mod with a Ryzen 3600 (or equivalent) and if it runs decently, might upgrade to that in the future and since my FX-6300 cannot run this at all I'm interested.
 
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NoCreativity

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Sorry for the slightly off-topic post but I'm wondering if anyone here plays this mod with a Ryzen 3600 (or equivalent) and if it runs decently, might upgrade to that in the future and since my FX-6300 cannot run this at all I'm interested.
My Ryzen 3600 runs this decently well. I get ~19-24 fps at max speed, which is playable.
 

steveconnell

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Just wanted to check if this is normal behaviour with the Hwarang reflection on traits.

I reflected on traits and asked the Hwarang for help. The problem is that after reflecting on traits I still have the modifier Ongoing self reflection and after a long period of time (23 years) it still hasn't been lifted so I cannot reflect on anymore traits.

1623747553636.png
 

Silversweeeper

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Just wanted to check if this is normal behaviour with the Hwarang reflection on traits.

I reflected on traits and asked the Hwarang for help. The problem is that after reflecting on traits I still have the modifier Ongoing self reflection and after a long period of time (23 years) it still hasn't been lifted so I cannot reflect on anymore traits.

View attachment 731911

It appears that modifier isn't cleared out when it should be, so it's not working as intended. Ensuring the bug doesn't happen in the future shouldn't be a problem in the bugfix patch, but getting anyone that's already stuck with the modifier to lose it is going to be less straightforward, so it might be necessary to edit the save to deal with that (doing that at present wouldn't prevent the problem from happening again).
 

Silversweeeper

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Just a head's up: Work on the 13.0.1 bugfix patch will probably begin this weekend. If you have discovered any issues that you haven't reported yet, it would be a good idea to report them no later than this Sunday (the 20th), seeing as the current list of issues to fix is rather short and many of those issues have rather straightforward fixes, meaning the bugfix patch likely won't take long to complete. Assuming there aren't any issues discovered that are severe enough to require a hotfix, anything that's not fixed as part of 13.0.1 will likely not be fixed prior to the 14.0.0 (Kamakura) major version (quite far off), and unless an issue has been reported it is fairly unlikely it has been discovered (and if it hasn't, it can't be fixed).
 

steveconnell

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Thanks for working on the bugs before moving onto the next major release.
I have a request regarding the pagan reformation. I was wondering if would be possible to add having a peaceful nature (reforming the religion similar to Buddhism) could be possible to retain the Confucian bureaucracy government type.
 

Silversweeeper

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Thanks for working on the bugs before moving onto the next major release.
I have a request regarding the pagan reformation. I was wondering if would be possible to add having a peaceful nature (reforming the religion similar to Buddhism) could be possible to retain the Confucian bureaucracy government type.

There will be no changes to which reformations get which governments in 13.0.1, and the only thing I'll say about the plans for 14.0.0 right now is that the next dev diary will go over the planned changes.
 

Silversweeeper

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The bugfix patch is ready. 13.0.0 saves will likely work, but no promises.

Patch notes:
Alpha 13.0.1 (CVUY) - 24/6/2021
--------------------------------------

Bugfixes:
- Kong Wenyu now has the correct dynasty (i.e. Confucius'). Bloodline TODO down the line (due to requiring extensive work on the Kong family tree).
- Emperors of China (or pretender empires) that are underage or have a regent can no longer have their Mandate rating become Unquestioned through the normal Mandate update (previously, it could become Unquestioned but would be lost on the next update).
- Having a regent due to being bedridden due to illness now counts for has_actual_regency_trigger, preventing someone with a Permanent Regent from doing various things if also bedridden.
- You will now be informed of how much Grace the EoC thinks a eunuch is worth when the offer is accepted (in any fashion).
- You will now be informed of how much Grace the EoC thinks a concubine is worth when the offer is accepted (in any fashion).
- If the EoC decides to give a concubine to his heir, the Grace gain will now partially depend on whether the heir is Lustful/Chaste rather than whether the EoC is Lustful/Chaste.
- You will now be informed of how much Grace the EoC thinks a commander is worth when the offer is accepted (in any fashion).
- You will now be informed of how much Grace the EoC thinks a physician is worth when the offer is accepted (in any fashion).
- Fixed some minor issues with the Shinto/Japonic Buddhist Monastic Order.
- Fixed vanilla issue where Dharmic feasts could result in incompatible lovers.
- However strange it would be during the era, discovering that someone is the lover of their spouse or consort during seclusion no longer lets you demand that they break things off (i.e. fixed a vanilla issue).
- Fixed vanilla issue where people would become lovers during seclusion despite having incompatible orientation.
- Fixed vanilla issue where you'd attempt to sway e.g. your own wife by trying to find someone for her to sleep with. Best not put the parentage of your children in doubt...
- Members of the Hwarang will no longer get confused about which traits they are reflecting upon.
- Fixed some issues with the Grand Chancellor bloodline.
- Lowered the prestige loss for various kinds of Chinese tributaries significantly (now -0.25/-0.5/-0.75/-1 for count/duke (or king-tier nomad)/king (or emperor-tier nomad/emperor, multiplied by tributary tier, with puppets counting as client states), seeing as small realms being completely crippled by tributary relationships wasn't ideal.
- Fixed pagan holy order leaders having the wrong religion, using a fix from CleanSlate (many thanks!).
- Members of the Hwarang that have reflected on a trait should now consider themselves done with that business for real if they succeed or decide to give up.
- Hopefully made it possible for people stuck reflecting on a trait due to not having the modifier cleared out to start over (at the cost of possibly letting someone that's not truly stuck start reflecting on a second trait in old saves).
- Minangkabau Melanesians should now default to Enatic when granted titles.
- Fixed some localization regarding society currency gain for members of the Hwarang and the WotRS.
- Minor localization improvements and fixes.
- The player should now be informed of Fredak's first appearance with a narrative event even when the AI picks the "Please burninate my capital with extreme prejudice!" option (which the AI almost always picks the first time).
- Fixed troops located in the Bagan province appearing to be standing in the Ava province, hopefully causing fewer military blunders in the region.
- Fixed several issues with Pragmatist Council Eunuchs opposing or supporting title grants and revokations when they should be doing the opposite.

Balance:
- Made Righteous Armies a bit more expensive.
- Made Righteous Armies have a somewhat worse troop composition (and sligthly fewer troops).
- Lowered the AI aggression of some Tianxia pagans a bit.
- The Tenno should no longer consider factioning for someone else under any circumstances.
- The Tenno should no longer be able to push his dynasty members' claims on empires (he can still press his own, but he will forfeit any secondary empires he might gain (and will prefer keeping e_japan over any other empire)).
- The Permanent Regent should now be reluctant to put someone that's landed on the Chrysanthemum Throne, particularly someone that's got an impressive title.


There should be a dev diary posted soonish (maybe even today), covering upcoming government eligibility adjustments. There's also a dev diary; see the post below.
 

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Dev diary 56 - Upcoming government eligibility changes

As part of 14.0.0, the eligibility for various Tianxia governments will change a bit. Work has not begun yet, so there might be some changes during development, but barring something turning out to be unfeasible the overall plan should not change much. It's possible there will be a dev diary (possibly even several) dedicated to government changes prior to 14.0.0's release when things have been set up properly, but we'll see how necessary that is down the line.

A large number of the upcoming changes will mean a loosening of restrictions, though there will still be restrictions in place, and some things are a bit more restrictive than previously, primarily due to various undesirable side-effects. Though some of you might wish otherwise, the plan is not -- and has never been -- to make various governments (e.g. Chinese Imperial) particularly widely available, and this is not something that is open for debate. If you want something else, you can deal with enabling it on your own, including various things that will get messed up due to safe assumptions being rendered unsafe.


Religion/culture and government eligibility:

The current game rule governing Chinese Imperial eligibility will be removed (it creates a bunch of problems), but for the most part culture will not matter.

- Taoists and Confucians (and Neo-Confucians, should they be added as a separate religion rather than a religious branch) will be eligible for Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, and Eastern Imperial (more on this below) regardless of culture

- Shinto characters will be eligible for Japanese Bureaucracy (more on this below), Japanese Feudal, and Japanese Monastic Feudal regardless of culture. The Tenno will still be restricted to Japanese Imperial.

- Chinese (Han, Yue, Bai, etc.; every culture in the Chinese culture group), Mongol, Koreanic (Korean and Jeju), Viet, Kaifeng, Jurchen, and Khitan Buddhists will be eligible for Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, and Eastern Imperial. Tangut Buddhists will be eligible for Chinese Imperial, but will use Monastic Feudal by default (and you'll thus get Monastic Feudal vassals if you give same culture same religion characters land). Japonic (Japanese, Yamato, etc.; every culture in the Japonic culture group) Buddhists will be eligible for Japanese Bureaucracy and Japanese Feudal and will lose access to Chinese Imperial and Confucian Bureaucracy, seeing as it is far too much trouble to have them be eligible for both sets of governments (it easily undermines the historical setup in Japan, for one thing). All other Buddhists will be ineligible for anything but Feudal (or Monastic Feudal, if in the Tibetan group). Aside from the changes to the Japonic group, this is unchanged from how things work with the current default setting for the culture game rule.

- Unreformed Shenist, Muist, and Thanist characters will be eligible for Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, and Eastern Imperial regardless of culture. With HF they will be able to reform in a fashion that lets them retain eligibility for some or all of these. Any new Chinese pagans will likely also be in this category, though if it turns out some of them should have inherent features incompatible with some or all of the governments (or the Grace system) they will be given those features rather than the government(s).

- Unreformed Ryukyuans will probably (it's possible they'll be left as regular Feudal, but I'm leaning towards not doing that) be eligible for Japanese Bureaucracy and Japanese Feudal (and maybe Japanese Monastic Feudal) regardless of culture, with historical rulers (and placeholders) likely scripted to start as Japanese Feudal. With HF, reforming in a fashion that permits access to the governments will be an option, and there will be a way to reform in a fashion that gives you a special government (provisionally named Divine Imperial) working roughly like Japanese Imperial (more on this below). They will be unable to get Chinese Imperial or related governments, seeing as having someone eligible for both systems causes issues.

- If the Shugendo religion is added (it's very possible it won't be, for reasons elaborated on in the previous dev diary), it will have access to Japanese Bureaucracy and Japanese Feudal regardless of culture (since the Shugendo religion is big on syncretism, Japanese Monastic Feudal -- which sort-of has religious revocation -- would not be reasonable).

But what about...?

I predict that there are questions about a number of religions not listed above, so I'll go over the ones I think people are most likely to ask about.

- Ainu pagans might be reasonable to give the same treatment as Ryukyuans, but as the Japanese governments are a bit of a mess I am not entirely sure it's reasonable to extend the system to yet another religion, and since the Ryukyuans historically did some things similar to Japan while the Ainu were less similar the Ryukyuans will get priority. It'd be necessary to check Warrior Lodge stuff carefully before making a decision, should it be deemed to be feasible with regards to scripting difficulties.

- Manchu/Jurchen pagans might get access to Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, and Eastern Imperial, and if so certain reformations will also unlock the governments. However, seeing as the plan is to give them a WL -- which no currently eligible religion has -- and possibly other flavour that may or may not be compatible, it is impossible to say at present, and if it is a choice between fitting flavour and the governments they'll get the flavour.

- Unreformed Tengri won't get any of the governments. It's possible reforming into Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, and Eastern Imperial could be an option, and maybe a few cultures could be eligible prior to reformation (similar to Buddhists, most likely), but considering 15.0.0 likely will result in changes to the Tengri religion it is prudent to delay the decision until it is clear what we want to do with the religion in other regards, seeing as it'd be preferable to not end up having to remove something.

- Nestorians might be feasible to give Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, and Eastern Imperial. However, they are likely to be worked on in 15.0.0, so delaying until then would be prudent, particularly as a ton of things checking for "religion_group = christian" will have to be looked at.

- Other Christians have various undesirable mechanics (the potential to get multiple holy orders, Crusades, autocephaly, Divine Blood, etc.). They won't be getting any of the relevant governments.

- Though there were some famous Muslim people holding government positions in China the various Muslim religions have a lot of problematic mechanics (Decadence, polygamy, secular rel heads, Jizya, and Jihads, off the top of my head). It's not reasonable to give them any of the relevant governments.

- Manicheans might be feasible to give Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, and Eastern Imperial under rules similar to Buddhists. However, it is prudent to delay the decision to 15.0.0, seeing as the religion might be worked on at that time.


Eligible pagan reformations:

Things will change quite significantly here, and will mostly become a lot less restrictive. For starters, a new Nature will be required to be eligible for any of the governments (in addition to a valid base religion). This is a consequence of Cosmopolitan having some issues that are desirable to deal with and some of its features being disabled by various governments anyway.

Tentatively called Tolerant (it will possibly be renamed, though Cosmopolitan was already taken...), the Nature will have roughly the following features:

- +1 piety/month when at peace (might be cut).

- No holy wars or Great Holy Wars (already blocked for the relevant governments, and this both makes it clearer and handles a possible exploit created by some other changes).

- No raiding (unless enabled by culture (or government; none of the relevant governments enable it)).

- The same intermarriage setup as Cosmopolitan (i.e. you gain intermarriage with neighbouring religions if you don't already have that, and keep whatever you already have on top of that).

- Able to ask for religious conversion if permitted by government (most of the governments discussed here will forbid it).

- Characters and provinces are harder to convert.

- No religious title revocation law.

- AI characters only convert provinces if Zealous, regardless of religion group.

This Nature will be an option when reforming religions not eligible for any of the governments, but the AI will most likely be scripted to never pick it when reforming a vanilla religion (if you feel it'd be very suitable somewhere, let me know and I'll consider making an exception).


When it comes to Doctrines, there will no longer be a strict requirement to have something requiring Meritocracy and something including Stability, but there will still be some restrictions.

- Astrology is permitted. It's a bit weird to have western zodiac traits, but it's not really causing any problems.

- Haruspicy is permitted.

- Bloodthirsty Gods is not permitted. It's not remotely historically relevant, and it gets really weird when peaceful(ish) co-existence is supposed to be the idea.

- Divine Marriage is not permitted. Aside from somewhat infrequent marriages involving half-siblings where one of them was (the future) Tenno, it's completely irrelevant, and -- though we can't model it and there were historical exceptions -- marrying someone with the same surname was and is frowned upon in China/etc. (even if it seems to have happened from time to time), and it'd also break both the Grace system and mechanics relevant to Divine Imperial.

- Polygamy will make you ineligible for Chinese Imperial (the Grace system would break) and Divine Imperial (relevant mechanics would break). It'd be permissible as far as other things go, though it'll make Eastern Imperial a bit worse (since the number of spouses won't be increased (and concubines don't work with polygamy)).

- Meritocracy is permitted.

- Equality will make you ineligible for Chinese Imperial (it breaks the Grace system). It'll be permissible for everything else.

- Unrelenting is permitted. It's a bit odd, but it doesn't break anything.

- Animistic is permitted.

- Sea-Bound is permitted. It's a bit odd (particularly for China), but it doesn't break anything.

- Enatic Clans will make you ineligible for Chinese Imperial (it breaks the Grace system). It should be fine otherwise, though Open Succession will not be an option for Divine Imperial and may or may not be something to disable elsewhere (though as we already are making large concessions regarding hereditary titles in bureaucratic realms it might be something that's kept).

- Agnatic Clans shouldn't cause any issues, though Open Succession will not be an option for Divine Imperial (and -- as mentioned above -- might be something that's disabled elsewhere too).

- Ancestor Veneration is permitted.

- Monasticism is permitted.

- Syncretism is permitted.

- Religious Tax is not permitted. It'd not be very tolerant.

- Daring is not permitted for Confucian Bureaucracy, Chinese Imperial, or Eastern Imperial, seeing as vassals gathering men to increase their personal power would be frowned upon. I'm currently leaning to it not being an option if you want Japanese-style governments either; it'll likely depend on whether the The Three Mountains Doctrine ends up being locked to more aggressive Natures or not.

- Pyramid Creation is permitted. It's a bit odd, but harmless.

- Self-Improvement is permitted.

- Any relevant unique Doctrines will be as restrictive as the Doctrines combined within the unique Doctrine, though might be blocked for other reasons (see what I wrote about The Three Mountains above).

Additionally, it is possible the unique Doctrines for Shenists, Muists, Thanists, and Ryukyuans will change a bit; for one thing, I'm considering maybe swapping some of them to have Self-Improvement instead of something else, to better show Buddhist influences (this might also end up happening when it comes to the unique Doctrines for non-vanilla religions that aren't eligible for any of the special governments). The Confucian Principles Doctrine will at the very least be removed from Ryukyuans (seeing as it was meant to help them get Chinese Imperial, which they'll be ineligible for), and might be removed entirely since it'll be a lot less relevant with Meritocracy + Stability not being a strict requirement any longer.


With regards to Leadership, two new Leaderships will be added, tentatively named Spiritual and Divine Ancestry.

- Spiritual will be effectively the same as Hierocratic minus Excommunication and claim grants (they'll get something else instead, tentatively the ability to get a temporary +1 in any stat for piety (giving them versatility over Autonomous but making the benefit weaker)) and will be restricted to Peaceful and Tolerant reformations (with the AI generally not picking it for vanilla religions). This Leadership is meant to make it possible to have Ancestor Veneration (which can't be picked with Autonomous) without access to Excommunication and claim grants (which are undesirable to have as mechanics for the relevant governments). This is obviously a permissible choice if you want the relevant governments. I don't feel creating an Autocephalous equivalent is particularly necessary, though if it's desirable it can be added as a low priority addition. AI pagans will probably be scripted to avoid picking this for all vanilla religions, but if there are any you feel it'd be relevant for I might consider exceptions.

- Divine Ancestry will give you a bloodline granting +5 opinion from people with the reformed religion (comparable to Saoshyant Descendant and Amaterasu Descendant, even though those will remain traits), passed on regardless of gender/marriage type/etc., in addition to making you the religion head. You'll not gain a reformer artefact, however (not even when we get around to adding those for our pagans). For Ryukyuans, assuming they haven't made themselves ineligible in some other fashion, this results in the rel head gaining the Divine Imperial government and a special succession law similar to the one the Tenno has, while all other Ryukyuans would be eligible for the Japanese governments if it is picked. I'm currently leaning towards this Leadership being permissible if you want Chinese Imperial/etc., though I feel it'd be a bit odd to not be able to ask for conversion as a rel head. This will also be available for vanilla pagans, though most will be set to not pick it in AI hands (I'm leaning towards making Zunists potentially it, as it seems appropriate), and it will be treated as Temporal when it comes to potentially becoming a High God (which requires a bunch of things that make you ineligible for the new governments).

With regards to vanilla Leaderships, this is how things will work:

- Autonomous will be permitted. It'll prevent you from getting Divine Imperial as a Ryukyuan, seeing as you'll explicitly need Divine Ancestry for that, and it can't be picked with Ancestor Veneration since that one requires you to have a rel head.

- Temporal will be permitted for Ryukyuans wishing to get the Japanese governments (they'll not get Divine Imperial if they pick it). I'm leaning towards permitting it for Chinese Imperial/etc., as the main obstacle (Cosmopolitans with rel heads getting GHWs) will be a non-issue, but I'll have to check how much work it'll be (as the current assumption of "You aren't a rel head if you have this government" will be rendered invalid), and it'd be a bit odd to not be able to ask for conversion as the head of a religion (though I suppose vanilla does that with Cosmopolitan already...).

- Neither Hierocratic nor Autocephalous will be permitted. Both come with Excommunication and claim grants, which are undesirable.


It's likely tooltips will be added when reforming a religion (that potentially could be eligible) with something like "This will make you eligible for [governments] if all other picks also say this", which hopefully should alleviate some of the confusion as to what is and isn't allowed.


The new governments:


- Eastern Imperial will basically be a slightly fancier version of Confucian Bureaucracy for emperors that haven't gone as far as to proclaim themselves pretenders (or the true emperor of China), meaning China won't automatically refuse you the honour of sending Tributes (and receiving Boons). It'll give you some extra concubines (probably not as many as Chinese Imperial, since there's no mechanical reason to have that many) and probably Council Eunuchs, but not the Mandate of Heaven, CBs related to reconquering Chinese land, or the like.

- Japanese Bureaucracy will basically be the same as Confucian Bureaucracy, but split to make it clear that someone with this government will be able to switch to Japanese Feudal (and possibly Japanese Monastic Feudal) and to make it possible to adjust some things in Japan and in e.g. China separately.

- Divine Imperial is effectively Japanese Imperial, but separated for scripting reasons. I currently don't believe it to be feasible to give Ryukyuans the shogunate mechanics since it'd be messy with a duchy-tier rel head that could end up a vassal of a vassal (and making them have a king-tier one would cause other issues), but giving their rel head a Permanent Regent is likely an option, a similar succession law, and perhaps some other things the Tenno has (even though some of those things might make things harder for the rel head, which likely will be the player...).


That's all for this dev diary. Dev diaries will likely be infrequent for a while, seeing as the work that'll be getting done in the immediate future mostly involves optimization/polishing/etc. of existing stuff (which is not going to be a small amount of work) and thus won't be particularly interesting to show off unless something changes in a major way.
 
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Out of curious, are you still stick on trait and flags for upcoming governments?
I was seeking other ways and if you're brewing some nice idea, I would like to have a share shamelessly.

We'll not need traits or flags for any of the new governments unless I'm mistaken, but I am reasonably sure we'll still need them where we currently have them as I've not found any better option (and I've tried a bunch of things in the past).
 

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Curious question but will there be any changes to Western governments eventually? I’m asking because it seems like you’ve gone out of your way to prevent most eastern cultures from having a feudal system. And it just feels a little odd to have a good chunk of the east non-feudal and all the west feudal when Feudalism as depicted in game historically only really related to the Frankish realms from the late 900s to the mid 1200s.

If it’s out of scope for this mod I understand, I’m just considering making a submod to try and more accurately model the West during this period and onowing if you have any plans in that regard may help. A Christian Bureaucracy submod if you will.
 
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Curious question but will there be any changes to Western governments eventually? I’m asking because it seems like you’ve gone out of your way to prevent most eastern cultures from having a feudal system. And it just feels a little odd to have a good chunk of the east non-feudal and all the west feudal when Feudalism as depicted in game historically only really related to the Frankish realms from the late 900s to the mid 1200s.

If it’s out of scope for this mod I understand, I’m just considering making a submod to try and more accurately model the West during this period and onowing if you have any plans in that regard may help. A Christian Bureaucracy submod if you will.

The decision regarding which cultures (and religions) have access to special governments has largely been made based on history (and CK2's scripting limitations regarding governments; it's much easier to make e.g. all Mongol Buddhist feudal rulers have Confucian Bureaucracy (or Chinese Imperial) than to make some of them have that government): China/Korea/(northern) Vietnam were bureaucratic (occasionally with some hereditary vassals, but that tended to be a consequence of the system breaking down (or Yuan granting land to other branches of the Borjigin family tree and also keeping a few powerful rulers (the rulers of Dali, Goryeo, and Sakya Trizin) in charge after they submitted; at least the first two were fairly bureaucratic)), while Japan started rather bureaucratic (they copied Tang, minus some bits they decided they didn't like (such as the MoH, because overthrowing the Imperial Family is simply not done)) and shifted feudal (with some extra messy bits due to regents/etc.). Outside those areas, we've not done any detailed work, so things have been left Feudal (with a little Monastic Feudal and Iqta) for now, which may or may not change down the line (though those non-vanilla areas certainly shouldn't be bureaucratic, at least not along Chinese or Japanese lines), even if we'll have to consider it carefully (since vanilla's decided to leave India regular Feudal and there was a degree of Indianization in SEAsia, which might result in things being a bit strange if we don't treat that area similarly to India...).

Nearly all of vanilla's map is outside the scope of Tianxia (the WP's territory, Tibet, and nomads (at least a few of them) being exceptions), and we generally only make changes to areas outside the scope if those changes fall within the categories of bugfixes (not a priority, but if we find something it'll probably be fixed), consistency/consequence updates (e.g. some vanilla "religion_group = indian_group" have been changed to explicit religion checks because including the Shinto religion in some places would get weird), and "This is closely tied to our stuff and we can do whatever we want" (e.g. the Silk Road is closely tied to China, so it was deemed reasonable to expand it a bit on the vanilla map). Adding new governments on the vanilla map would not fall in any of those categories (even though I personally agree that vanilla's Feudal (and Iqta) isn't a good fit everywhere it is used), so it is at best something that could be considered after we're satisfied with things that are within the scope (and there's still a lot to do there).

If you want to make a submod introducing other forms of government elsewhere, feel free to do so (our setup for Chinese Imperial and Confucian Bureaucracy (chinese_vassal_government in the files) is heavily based on what vanilla does for Chinese Imperial and (unplayable republic) Confucian Bureaucracy, so you don't even need to credit us for anything you do based on the government definitions). However, I'd suggest you create one or more separate governments instead of opening up the eligibility for the ones we have, seeing as you'll otherwise run into the issue with invalidated assumptions (e.g. "government = chinese_imperial_government" currently guarantees "controls_religion = no") and risk creating extra compatibility work depending on how we implement things and how fitting they are elsewhere.
 
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