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Silversweeeper

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Man...all the guys regularly playing this mod must have quite excellent performing pc's. How do you guys get rid of the inevitable lag? Or if there still is lag, you guys can just power through and play?

Tianxia is never going to run as fast as vanilla. We've added about 50 % more provinces on top of vanilla, naturally resulting in a lot more living character at any given moment, which would be a significant performance drain even if we hadn't added anything other than provinces/characters/titles, and we have also added a fairly good chunk of events/decisions/etc. on top of what's in vanilla while removing very little that exists in vanilla (a handful of JD-related things were cut due to not working well with China on the map and, the Marco Polo events are gone due to not making sense, but I think that's it) and in some cases making vanilla content a bit more costly from a performance standpoint out of necessity (e.g. we've extended the Silk Road noticeably, which of course means it costs more performance).

That said, we're trying to keep performance as reasonable as we can, within certain constraints (e.g. we'll not make changes to vanilla in the name of performance, and we'll add even more content related to our part of the map even though that naturally costs performance). If we discover things that are unreasonable performance drains we'll do what we can to improve them. At least one such performance drain has been identified and improved upon internally, but given that we're still adding more things it's hard to say whether the next proper version (which is still some ways off) will have noticeably better, noticeably worse, or roughly equal performance, and further versions after that might of course be slower again.
 
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Higakoryu

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Man...all the guys regularly playing this mod must have quite excellent performing pc's. How do you guys get rid of the inevitable lag? Or if there still is lag, you guys can just power through and play?
I usually don't experience much lag, however sometimes the games is messed up in much spectacular ways, swapped flag being the least among those.
 

LumberKing

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I usually don't experience much lag, however sometimes the games is messed up in much spectacular ways, swapped flag being the least among those.
For flags messing up, try deleting the folder "flags" in "[Hard Drive Letter]\Documents\Paradox Interactive\Crusader Kings II\Tianxia\gfx".
 

Silversweeeper

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The next dev diary will have to be delayed by a few days (due to factors not related to the mod).
 

Silversweeeper

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Wait, there is a nominal schedule for them?

There's not really an announced schedule (though I've got a vague idea as to when certain things are likely to get done, including a tentative release window for the next version), but last week I said there probably would be a dev diary "next week" (i.e. this week), which now has turned out to be unfeasible (which kind of illustrates why I usually refrain from saying anything about dates).
 
Development Diary 47: Hwarang

Silversweeeper

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Dev diary 47 - The Hwarang + WIP 1127.4.20

It's been a while, but it's finally time for another dev diary, covering a new society and also giving you a look at the current state of the new bookmark we're adding in the 13.0.0 version. Things are a bit WIP, meaning the screenshots might contain missing localization or the like, and might also change a bit before release.


The Hwarang:

The Hwarang are an upcoming society loosely inspired by the historical group with the same name. It will be available to Koreanic Buddhists, Koreanic Taoists, and both unreformed and reformed Muists (regardless of reformation picks) that are not nomads (none are scripted as nomads, so that shouldn't normally matter). The society is not based on any vanilla society, meaning it's available regardless of DLCs, though you'll need one or more of tOG, RoI, JD, or HF to play any eligible characters, which presumably won't be a problem since nearly all of our characters require one of those DLCs anyway.

ck2_1.png


Unlike the historical Hwarang, the society in Tianxia is open to both men and women (though unless they belong to an Equal or Enatic religion AI women are relatively unlikely to join). Furthermore, it's not only a society for youths (even if characters as young as 12 can join), though characters over the age of 30 will gain less and less influence (-1 at age 30, -2 at age 35, etc. up to -15 at age 100), meaning you're sooner or later going to get to the point where the society isn't giving you anything more than flavour events and static modifiers (since you can't afford the powers unless you just got a reward for completing a mission), with the intent being that you either accept having an essentially honorary position or that you leave the society.

Ranks and powers:

As with all societies (at least in Tianxia and vanilla), there are four ranks in the Hwarang: Nangdo, Hwarang/Wonhwa, Pung-wolju, and Gukseon, with the last one only being available to one character at a time and with children restricted to the first rank.

The powers are fairly mixed, with some being of a religious nature, some having to do with managing a realm, and some having military applications.

ck2_2.png


A Nangdo has access to the following powers:

Become Groomed - Spend some Devotion to gain the Groomed trait (and lose Uncouth, if relevant). Since Uncouth makes you gain less Devotion while Groomed makes you gain more, this tends to pay for itself over time, and even though the Hwarang might frown on such activities Groomed would of course be helpful for seduction or opinion-boosting from anyone attracted to your gender.

Seek Spiritual Guidance - Spend Devotion to ask a suitable person to help you become a more virtuous/better Hwarang. It is possible the person you ask might ask for something in return (e.g. a Favour or a charitable donation) or that they'll turn you down. If a deal is reached, they'll pick something to teach you (partially based on their traits) and hopefully help you towards that trait... or they might see fit to teach you that virtues and the like are overrated (which potentially could be beneficial if you want to lose a certain virtue). Some attempts to help you (whether towards a virtue or not) might also have side-effects (e.g. a character being taught to be more diligent might decide that if they should work hard they should also have grand ambitions, meaning they move towards Ambitious).

Cash Out - As previously mentioned, you'll sooner or later get to a point where you're not really going to be getting any Devotion and where you might even be losing what you have over time. Because of this, characters over the age of 30 can opt to leave the society, immediately trading all Devotion for prestige and piety (currently at a 10:1 ratio, though that might be increased). Doing this will permanently disqualify you from rejoining, though an AI-controlled character that's left but then ends up being player-controlled can rejoin once (to avoid having the AI screw you over).

ck2_3.png


In addition to the powers of a Nangdo, a Hwarang (or Wonhwa, if female) has access to the following powers:

Inspire Loyalty - You can spend Devotion to make a courtier (that's not a prisoner) or vassal like you more, and it might potentially have good side-effects (e.g. the vassal might offer to end a rivalry with you, abandon a claim, or move closer to a virtue you have).

Organize Patrols - You can spend Devotion to lower the revolt risk in the target province. While a bit situational, it could be useful if you get hit with some nasty modifier in an event.

Reflect on Traits - You can spend Devotion to reflect on traits, potentially moving towards something Hwarang-approved. This is less prone to side-effects than Spiritual Guidance and it lets you decide which trait you want to go for, but unless you're willing to invest further Devotion or have a friend to help you in the right direction isn't also somewhat less likely to work.

ck2_4.png


In addition to the powers of a Hwarang/Wonhwa, a Pung-wolju has access to the following powers:

Suggest Non-Aggression Pact - You can spend Devotion to suggest that a vassal or fellow Hwarang enters into an NAP (lasting 10 years) with you. Potentially useful if you have NAPs set to block factions in the game rules or if another Hwarang has a claim on you and you're not feeling confident in your chances to fight them off.

Select Hwarang lifestye - Allows you to spend Devotion to pick one of nine Hwarang-approved lifestyles (Administrator, Architect, Duelist, Gamer, Hunter, Scholar, Socializer, Strategist, and Theologian).

Demand Leadership - Allows you to spend Devotion to demand that the current Gukseon steps aside and allows a younger and more capable leader to take their place, which of course happens to be you. Can only be used if you are younger than the current Gukseon and only if you are ten years younger than them or if no other Pung-wolju is younger than you. The current Gukseon might take it personally (potentially becoming your rival) and can spend 1000 Devotion to prevent the takeover, though as they'll be older than you they'll likely find it hard to continuously defeat attempted takeovers.

ck2_5.png


In addition to the powers mentioned before (excluding Demand Leadership, for reasons that should be obvious), the Gukseon has access to the following powers:

Raise Righteous Army - You can spend Devotion to raise a large number of irregular (and thus mostly low-quality) troops while at war. Unlike other such decisions, these troops do not disband when you are at peace.

Discourage Factions - You can spend Devotion to discourage all of your vassals from joining factions, lowering their willingness to start or join factions by a factor of four for the next two years. Potentially useful if you intend to do something unpopular (e.g. go against your council or tyrannically execute someone) or if you've already got a lot of uppity vassals.

Additionally, other society members that are not at war with the Gukseon, independent and higher tier, lieges of the Gukseon, rivals of the Gukseon, or (if relevant) the reformed Muist rel head will be obedient if AI-controlled (meaning they pretty much always accept diplomatic proposals).


Missions:

As in the case of other societies, the Hwarang will occasionally give you missions, which can be the following

- Become Groomed
- Seek Spiritual Guidance
- Become Chaste
- Become Temperate
- Become Charitable
- Become Diligent
- Become Patient
- Become Kind
- Become Humble
- Become Brave
- Become Content
- Become Gregarious
- Become Honest
- Become Just
- Become Trusting
- Switch to the Family focus
- Switch to the War focus
- Switch to the Rulership focus
- Switch to the Theology focus

It should be noted that since all the traits related to missions can be picked up in several places, it will sometimes take a while before you complete the mission if you gain a trait outside the Hwarang-specific events/decisions.


Refounding the Hwarang:

Since the historical Hwarang were closely tied to Silla, the society is only enabled by default in the start dates where Silla is around (769 and 867; the 936 start is roughly ten months too late for Silla to be around). However, a sufficiently powerful or influential ruler that's a Koreanic Buddhist, Koreanic Taoist, or unreformed or reformed Muist could potentially refound them later on, should they live up to the conditions.

ck2_6.png


In case you can't make them out in the screenshot above, the conditions are the following:

- Must be independent.
- Must not be inaccessible/incapable/imprisoned/etc.
- Must be an adult.
- Must be at peace.
- Must not be part of any other society.
- Must have 1000 piety.
- Must be one of A) emperor-tier, B) king-tier with a royal Silla bloodline and 2000 prestige, C) king-tier and in charge of a religion (which must be reformed Muist, since no other eligible religion can have a rel head) with 2000 prestige, and D) king-tier with 10000 prestige.

The ruler that recreates the Hwarang will get a bloodline as a reward and will immediately join the society and become the first Gukseon, and many eligible characters in their realm will probably join in quick succession.


It is probably worth noting right away that as it's rather unsuitable from a flavour standpoint we'll not be giving the Muists a Warrior Lodge. Yes, vanilla gives one to all (non-Aztec) pagans, but we'd rather give our pagans something more appropriate where possible, and similar to how the Ryukyuans got access to the WotRS instead of a Warrior Lodge the Muists get access to the Hwarang instead of a Warrior Lodge.


WIP 1127.4.20:


The new bookmark is starting to look a lot better than the last time it was shown. Let's start with the less interesting parts.

ck2_7.png

ck2_8.png

ck2_9.png

ck2_10.png


Nusantara, the Pacific Rim, Japan, Manchuria, and Korea haven't changed significantly (though Korea is likely to change to some extent as work continues). For the most part, mainland SEAsia looks the same, though I believe Dali wasn't as far along the last time (and no, they're not meant to control that chunk north of Dai Viet; that's Ziqi).


Finally, China has been worked on quite a bit, though it's not quite done yet (for one thing, there's no war between (Jurchen) Jin and Song at the moment).

ck2_11.png

ck2_12.png


Aside from the vassal shown as "Baise" (and another vassal in Hainan that's not visible in the screenshot), the vassals of Song and (Jurchen) Jin are historical people, even if not all of them held the land they held around this time. Going by the name shown on the vassal map mode, these vassals are:

- Wanyan Nianhan, in Taiyuan.
- Wanyan Zongwang, in Kaiping.
- Zhang Bangchang, in Bianjing. He'll be given an imperial title and turned into a (Jurchen) Jin tributary prior to release.

- Zhang Jun (the chancellor, not the general), in Chengdufu.
- Li Gang, in Jinghunan.
- Yue Fei, in Jiangnanxi.
- Zhang Jun, in Huangshan.
- Liu Yu, in Jinan.

The Song emperor is Zhao Gou (Gaozong) even though he hadn't taken the throne yet. We can't have an interregnum, and given that Qinzong starts as a prisoner of (Jurchen) Jin he can't be left in charge as that'd make Song start at -100 % WS.


The two independent counties between Song and (Jurchen) Jin are counties that simply have not been properly assigned yet and thus just have auto-generated characters in them at present (they'll go to Song, but whether they'll be given to Gaozong or someone else has yet to be determined). However, you might notice that one of them has a rather different CoA, and wonder just what's going on there. Well, there's an explanation for it.

ck2_14.png


Meet Sayyid (several different names are given in different places) Burhanid, or "Su-fei-er". Just how historical he is and when he would have been around is a bit uncertain, but we had no proper holder in the area and adding him seemed like a good idea (he holds the relevant provinces from 1070.1.1 to 1127.1.9), and though it's unlikely that the majority of the population would have been Sunni it's more interesting than just having more Taoists (that we're not certain about either) there.


That'll be all for this dev diary. The next one will probably not be very soon, seeing as I'll be spending several weeks working on localization, minor bugfixing, and history files and all of that is work that's rather boring to show off, but there's still some flavour to be added as part of the next version that will be shown eventually.

If you have any suggestions about any of the following, now would be an excellent time to mention them:

- Ainu flavour. As things currently stand, they'll probably get a Warrior Lodge and the Iyomante as their special feast decision, but it'd be nice to be able to give them more than that.
- Any interesting Buddhist pilgrimage destinations in Korea that are not Bulguksa/Seokguram and that would have been relevant in the CK2 time period (preferably throughout it). Yes; you can take this as at least one unique Koreanic Buddhist pilgrimage being planned.
- Assorted Korean flavour. Muist flavour is of particular interest as Buddhists in the area will have access to general Buddhist flavour, but flavour specific to Korean Buddhism is not entirely uninteresting. We have a few ideas, but more ideas would not be unwelcome.
 
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Higakoryu

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Happy New Year! It is a spectacular feeling, celebrating the Lunar New Year in the company of my family, and in the same time, in game, and in the conpany of my second family, the CK2 community in general and the spectacular Tianxia community in particular. It has been two awesome years watching the growth of the mod, and without further ado, WISH YOU PROSPERITY!
 

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Jackzee

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This mod is exquisite, why not to establish a partnership with the NMIH mod group? They have a lot of assets and features that may be useful for this mod and viceversa.
 
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Wielding power behind the scenes as regent? The closest you'll get is dominating council voting by getting and calling in Favours. Alternatively, create a submod that enables the Permanent Regency mechanics in additional places (it'd not be straightforward) or that adds something else in a similar vein.

Deposing the emperor as a vassal and becoming emperor/empress? Fabricate or inherit a claim and create a faction. Alternatively, create a submod that allows plot-based coups, adding a decision for a regent to coup someone, or the like.


Why we're not doing Permanent Regencies (or something similar) in China/Chinese Imperial realms:

- Both the various Permanent Regency mechanics and various Chinese Imperial mechanics (the MoH, the Grace system, etc.) are rather messy behind the scenes (mostly due to it being unavoidable; there probably are a few bits that could be less messy), and the two categories of mechanics -- and certain other mechanics adjacent to those categories -- were designed under the assumption that they never would interact with each other (or with one of the two categories for some adjacent mechanics). Even discounting adjacent mechanics (e.g. the Treasure Fleet) that might need changes, I'd say it'd be necessary to manually review upwards of 100k lines of script scattered across several files, and with significant adjustments likely being necessary (even if you opt against things like e.g. letting a Permanent Regent in China oversee Tribute/Boon acceptance) it'd be also necessary to do a significant amount of testing to ensure that both the existing functionality is maintained and that the new functionality works as desired.

- While China had some regencies where the regent was powerful (and periods where certain other officials had significant power), it wasn't really comparable to the Tenno having a regent in nearly all start dates (and between early starts/after 1337.1.1) or the Shogun having a regent for most of the Kamakura Shogunate's existence.

- We want the experience of playing as/in China/Chinese Imperial realms to be somewhat different from playing as/in a Japanese Imperial realm (or a non-Chinese Imperial Japanese empire where the Shogun potentially gets a regent). Giving China/Chinese Imperial realms Permanent Regency mechanics would push Japan towards "Budget China" territory.


Why we're not doing coups/takeovers using plots:

- Much like vanilla, we sometimes have to opt against historical accuracy due to other factors, and in this case we're opting for what's (subjectively) more fun. I have little doubt that people would find it fun to overthrow their liege, but I also have little doubt that many people would find it unfun to be overthrown and that some people might consider it unfun enough that they stop playing that campaign. Even if it was game ruled (and "Just game rule it!" is not always appealing or sensible), it'd still require it to be added and tested, and possibly adjustments to other things to account for it potentially being active.

- Vanilla has opted against plot-based coups even where they happened (e.g. the ERE). We're not messing with vanilla outside of a few previously mentioned exceptions, so we'd obviously not be able to add coups in relevant vanilla areas, and it seems like a good idea to remain consistent with vanilla's "No plot-based coups" approach.

- There are other ways to depose a ruler already, and there are ways to depose a dynasty as well, and we're making it slightly easier in (sub-Average MoH) Chinese Imperial realms already. It feels a bit redundant, and the other approaches let you fight back to some extent, which presumably is vastly preferable if you are not the would-be usurper.


In both cases, it's also worth noting that Tianxia -- much like vanilla -- has to simplify things to an extent and it's thus not possible for everything that happened historically to happen in the game, that existing mechanics/flavour not directly related to the special government mechanics likely would need to be reviewed and possibly adjusted to account for government mechanics they're currently not ever interacting with, and that future mechanics/flavour might get messier (and might get scrapped if they're deemed too messy) due to having to interact with more special government mechanics (and this would not just be mechanics/flavour added in Japan or China as certain other cultures and religions are eligible for Chinese Imperial). It's also impossible to accommodate every request and every possible playstyle, so if something doesn't seem like a good idea to us (for whatever reason) we'll probably skip it and instead work on other things -- related or not -- that we think are good ideas unless it's a very easy request to accommodate.


Since it's tangentially relevant: I'm aware of the Goryeo military regime, and it's something that would be interesting to try to model, but I really think that copy-pasting Permanent Regencies for that would be a bad idea. Some other possibilities are being considered, but as of right now it isn't certain that any of them will pan out, and it's possible we'll just go with a very empowered council and the dictator controlling nearly every county in the realm.



Fujiwara no Yorimichi, i.e. the Kampaku in 1066? You could check the English Wikipedia page for him or a translated version of the Japanese Wikipedia page for him (I can't vouch for the translation being accurate, but I doubt it's deliberately inaccurate) for some information, and he was important enough that you likely can find quite a bit of information about him if you go looking.

As for him starting as a Ghost Gatherer, that's not pre-scripted, but since he's scripted to start with one vice (Proud) he's eligible for being randomly picked as a starting member (and he'd need to get rather lucky with the random traits and attributes to be eligible as a starting member in some other society), which means he is reasonably likely to end up in the Ghost Gatherers. It's possible he'll get some more traits when Japan is worked on again, which might push him towards another society, but I rather doubt he'll not start with Proud due to the "Just the First Subject" thing, and thus he'll remain eligible unless we specifically exclude Permanent Regents (which isn't currently planned).



I'll check if that's broken.
I have a submod to enable palace coups it's really an easy thing to do so and is completely balanced.
 

Silversweeeper

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This mod is exquisite, why not to establish a partnership with the NMIH mod group? They have a lot of assets and features that may be useful for this mod and viceversa.

I'm not sure we've got that much to offer each other, to be honest.

NMIH is pretty unlikely to want anything that's not relevant to Japan, and I'm not sure our stuff in Japan would appeal to them (or would be relevant), so while I don't think we'd immediately dismiss any requests from them I also don't really expect any such requests to be forthcoming.

As for their stuff, anything NMIH does that's not relevant prior to 1453 (or 1337, as far as history goes) is utterly irrelevant for us. Anything they've got that'd be relevant isn't necessarily desirable (I've not kept up with NMIH's development, so I can't say for sure), and anything that'd be desirable would probably not be completely straightforward to implement in Tianxia even if we got permission to use it, meaning it at the very least would be prudent to hold off until such a time we're once more considering Japan a focus area (which it isn't in 13.0.0). I'll probably take another look at NMIH when it's time to focus on Japan again and see if they've got anything that'd be of interest (and then check with LumberKing, seeing as my formal authority to negotiate any kind of agreement is extremely limited), and maybe that'd result in us incorporating something they've got if an agreement can be reached, but it's not happening in the short term.

I have a submod to enable palace coups it's really an easy thing to do so and is completely balanced.

Good for you.

I still consider palace coups to be an unfun and undesirable mechanic to have in Tianxia (and a mechanic that'd not make sense to implement without messing with vanilla to a too large extent, for that matter) and consider other methods to usurp someone vastly preferable, so while you of course are allowed to play with your submod I really don't see us adding palace coups in the mod (regardless of whether you've come up with an implementation you think is good and regardless of whether you feel like sharing it or not), seeing as my standing orders from LumberKing essentially are "Do what you think is best unless I tell you otherwise" and I think it's best to not add palace coups.
 
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I still consider palace coups to be an unfun and undesirable mechanic to have in Tianxia (and a mechanic that'd not make sense to implement without messing with vanilla to a too large extent, for that matter) and consider other methods to usurp someone vastly preferable, so while you of course are allowed to play with your submod I really don't see us adding palace coups in the mod (regardless of whether you've come up with an implementation you think is good and regardless of whether you feel like sharing it or not), seeing as my standing orders from LumberKing essentially are "Do what you think is best unless I tell you otherwise" and I think it's best to not add palace coups.
Part of why I haven't published more of the personal mods I am currently kicking around is because while I think the features would be fun (or at least increase the length of time that republics can expand their reach by methods other than institionalized murder of rival houses), I am not sure how to balance them because they add options that I don't think the AI will use well. Based on what has been said here, I believe you that palace coups are either unfun (if you are the Tenno and an AI uses it on you), or overpowered (if you can use it on the AI, but the AI never does), or some combination of both (if the mechanics aren't interesting to interact with from either direction).

In other words, I appreciate that you spend some effort thinking about these things and believe that you have come to a reasonable conclusion.
 
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I'm not sure we've got that much to offer each other, to be honest.

NMIH is pretty unlikely to want anything that's not relevant to Japan, and I'm not sure our stuff in Japan would appeal to them (or would be relevant), so while I don't think we'd immediately dismiss any requests from them I also don't really expect any such requests to be forthcoming.

As for their stuff, anything NMIH does that's not relevant prior to 1453 (or 1337, as far as history goes) is utterly irrelevant for us. Anything they've got that'd be relevant isn't necessarily desirable (I've not kept up with NMIH's development, so I can't say for sure), and anything that'd be desirable would probably not be completely straightforward to implement in Tianxia even if we got permission to use it, meaning it at the very least would be prudent to hold off until such a time we're once more considering Japan a focus area (which it isn't in 13.0.0). I'll probably take another look at NMIH when it's time to focus on Japan again and see if they've got anything that'd be of interest (and then check with LumberKing, seeing as my formal authority to negotiate any kind of agreement is extremely limited), and maybe that'd result in us incorporating something they've got if an agreement can be reached, but it's not happening in the short term.



Good for you.

I still consider palace coups to be an unfun and undesirable mechanic to have in Tianxia (and a mechanic that'd not make sense to implement without messing with vanilla to a too large extent, for that matter) and consider other methods to usurp someone vastly preferable, so while you of course are allowed to play with your submod I really don't see us adding palace coups in the mod (regardless of whether you've come up with an implementation you think is good and regardless of whether you feel like sharing it or not), seeing as my standing orders from LumberKing essentially are "Do what you think is best unless I tell you otherwise" and I think it's best to not add palace coups.
Well it's completely historical accurate. If you want I can prove to you it's balanced and doesn't ruin the game what so ever.
 
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Well it's completely historical accurate. If you want I can prove to you it's balanced and doesn't ruin the game what so ever.

As I have mentioned in the past, historical accuracy is not the only factor to consider when deciding what to do (or what to not do), and it does not necessarily carry more weight than other factors being considered in all situations. This is not the first time we've opted against historical accuracy, and it won't be the last.

Vanilla also opted against historical accuracy at various times (including in several places in the history files where the devs without a doubt knew -- or easily could have discovered -- that something else would have been more accurate), and I'd hazard a guess that many other mods also opt against historical accuracy (or canon accuracy, if that's what's relevant to a certain mod) every now and then if going with it would be detrimental in other ways, including -- but not limited to -- the historically accurate addition/change being unfun (from any relevant perspective), being unbalanced, being problematic to make available to the AI (and undesirable to have player-only), being an unreasonable performance drain, being hard to implement, being hard to make work alongside other mechanics, being problematic for future plans, being outside the scope of what's meant to be worked on/allowed to be changed, or being problematic from a ratings/content rules/etc. standpoint (and/or being something the modder personally isn't comfortable with putting in the mod), with different factors mattering to a different extent at different times.
 
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As I have mentioned in the past, historical accuracy is not the only factor to consider when deciding what to do (or what to not do), and it does not necessarily carry more weight than other factors being considered in all situations. This is not the first time we've opted against historical accuracy, and it won't be the last.

Vanilla also opted against historical accuracy at various times (including in several places in the history files where the devs without a doubt knew -- or easily could have discovered -- that something else would have been more accurate), and I'd hazard a guess that many other mods also opt against historical accuracy (or canon accuracy, if that's what's relevant to a certain mod) every now and then if going with it would be detrimental in other ways, including -- but not limited to -- the historically accurate addition/change being unfun (from any relevant perspective), being unbalanced, being problematic to make available to the AI (and undesirable to have player-only), being an unreasonable performance drain, being hard to implement, being hard to make work alongside other mechanics, being problematic for future plans, being outside the scope of what's meant to be worked on/allowed to be changed, or being problematic from a ratings/content rules/etc. standpoint (and/or being something the modder personally isn't comfortable with putting in the mod), with different factors mattering to a different extent at different times.
It's also completely balanced and unbroken. Let me show it to you. Later I'll put it here for everyone to use.
 
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It's also completely balanced and unbroken. Let me show it to you.

Seeing as the idea runs afoul of nearly everything I listed as being considerations that could influence a decision not to do something that'd improve historical accuracy, I'm going to go with "No".

- Even if I thought that palace coups were a desirable feature (I really don't) I'd consider it a feature that would be nonsensical to implement without having it where historically relevant on the vanilla map (e.g. in the ERE), but the general rule for what we are and aren't doing in Tianxia is "Vanilla takes precedence" (with a few caveats not relevant here). Any implementation you could show me that adds palace coups on the vanilla map would mess with vanilla to an unacceptable degree, and any implementation you could show me that doesn't mess with vanilla to an unacceptable degree would not add them where I (in a hypothetical scenario where I thought the feature was desirable) would consider it necessary to add them if they were added.

- I've only announced a small fraction of the future plans for Tianxia. Between my various design documents, there's over a hundred items of varying size beyond those relevant to 13.0.0, and though it's possible that some of those unannounced things will turn out to be unfeasible or will be decided against for some other reason there is at least one thing that (assuming it got added) definitely would have to account for palace coups being a thing, which would result in certain complications. I'd rather avoid such unnecessary complications caused by a feature I consider undesirable.

- I don't think palace coups would be sensible to implement in a vacuum. Given this, a number of things -- such as the Mandate of Heaven and the Japanese government mess -- would likely have to be tweaked to some extent to account for palace coups being a thing, and those things are already very messy behind the scenes (largely out of necessity) and really not something I want to fiddle with unless I have to. Considering I don't want palace coups and that not adding them saves me the trouble of having to fiddle with the aforementioned things one extra time, it is prudent to avoid adding them.

- While I doubt that you'd intentionally offer something that's not working the way you want it to work, I would still need to go over it to see that it looked reasonable and then test it. Even if it's reasonably small, the script checks out, and it does what it is supposed to do, that's still time being spent on a feature that I don't want, and I'd rather spend that time either working on something that I want in the mod (or doing related activities, e.g. research or testing) or doing something that's unrelated to the mod. I'm thus going to turn down the offer to look at your work.

- As mentioned previously, we've got plenty of things left to add, and every addition comes with a performance cost. Given that there only is so much we can do to keep this performance cost down and that we are limited in what we can (and will; since we're not messing with vanilla, performance improvements to vanilla content aren't really on the table) do to decrease the overall performance cost through changes to existing content, wasting performance on an undesirable feature is unappealing, and however small the cost might be for any one feature it'd easily add up if we kept adding assorted things we don't want (and no, "I asked first, so just do my thing!" is not a remotely compelling argument). It's vastly preferable to have that performance cost "available" for features we know or decide we want (or requests we actually feel would be reasonable to accommodate), and I rather doubt it'd appeal to people if we removed features with the explanation "We didn't really want [feature] in the first place, and now adding [unrelated feature] is more reasonable from a performance standpoint!".

- I consider palace coups to be a mechanic that would be far too powerful to make exclusive to the player, and also a mechanic that would be far too dangerous to give the AI access to unless they're trivial to prevent, in which case they're not really doing what they're supposed to be doing. Given that this is far from the only objection I have, you hypothetically proving me wrong as far as this goes would be insufficient, and I don't see any reason to humour the attempt by reviewing what you've created, particularly not as that'd both make it likely that you'd iterate on the request and that someone else would make a comparable request regarding some other feature they're convinced that we want despite being told we don't want it.

- I would expect people to find being the instigator or beneficiary of a (successful) palace coup fun, but being the target of a successful palace coup is unlikely to be remotely fun, and it'd quite possibly be unfun to such an extent that people either reloaded an earlier save or abandoned the campaign right then and there and quite possibly complain about the mechanic asking for it to be changed (and, considering we're not doing frequent releases and that any changes to the mechanics thus likely wouldn't happen very quickly they might lose interest in the mod as a whole). Considering there are other ways to do takeovers (e.g. murdering your way to the throne or getting a claim(ant) and starting a faction) that I believe are less unfun (being usurped is going to be somewhat unfun regardless of how it happens) I see little reason to add palace coups and consider them extremely undesirable. Furthermore, while I did give the suggestion due consideration when it was first brought up, my dislike of palace coups is nothing new (the linked post (in a thread you should not necro) is from several months before I joined the Tianxia team, and it's possible I posted something similar elsewhere even earlier), and your chances of convincing me that they would be a good addition are non-existent.

- While I'm prepared to grant that there are people who desire this feature, mod (and game) development is not a democracy (and it shouldn't be), and while suggestions and feedback will be considered that does not guarantee that we will act on it if we think doing so is the wrong move, and we don't even have to provide an explanation or even acknowledge that we've read the suggestion/feedback. Suggestions that boil down to "You should add palace coups!" have been seen, have been considered, and have been rejected, with explanations of varying length being provided. It is understandably not the decision you (or others in favour of palace coups) would have preferred, but it is the decision that's been made, and we cannot accommodate every request and will opt against features we simply do not want even if they're being offered in a "complete" state.

- Given that I don't particularly want to release a mod including features I can't say roughly "I think this is a good feature, and a good implementation of said feature" about (even if it sometimes turns out that the feature or implementation needs adjustment), I'm not going to add a feature I consider undesirable if I can make that call, and unless LumberKing tells me to do it over my objections (and I'm unable to change his mind) I can make that call. Considering that he has given me rather broad authority to make development-related decisions, I rather doubt he'd intervene simply because I'm not giving you the answer you want, particularly not as that'd make it rather likely that any other decision I make would be appealed by someone that disagrees with it.

- While I'll grant that palace coups would increase historical accuracy, that is insufficient considering the other things listed here.

- I don't consider "Just add a game rule to disable/tweak palace coups!" a reasonable answer to all -- or even most -- of the above. A suggestion to that effect would therefore get you nowhere, so there's no need to bother with it.

- And, just to get it out of the way: While someone that becomes part of the Tianxia team could expect to be able to influence future development to a somewhat greater extent than someone that does not, they would be expected to primarily work on features deemed a priority and would also be expected to not add anything that's been deemed undesirable. Any plan along the lines of "I'll join the Tianxia team and put palace coups in Tianxia despite being told they're not wanted!" is thus doomed to failure, particularly as I'd pay attention to what got added and therefore would be able to remove anything undesirable (and any hypothetical team member that proved unable to follow instructions to the effect of "I've removed this because it's an undesirable feature. Don't put it or something similar back unless you've been told it is allowed." would likely also get removed).


To summarize: Palace coups aren't happening in Tianxia. This is my final decision on the matter, and further attempts to convince me to change this decision would be pointless and will either be ignored or referred here. Anyone that wants palace coups will have to figure out some unofficial way to add them, much like they'd have to figure out some unofficial way to do anything else that we have decided against or that we end up deciding against in the future.

Later I'll put it here for everyone to use.

If it doesn't use any of our files, go right ahead. I'm not going to look at it, but anyone that feels like it certainly can.

If it uses some of them, please specify roughly which ones (if they are vanilla files with miniscule edits (e.g. a few added Grace penalties). Per Rule 5, our consent is required prior to using our work, and though I expect to be able to grant it with only the bare minimum conditions (credit us, don't break any relevant DLC locks, and don't give other mods permission to use the stuff you got from us) we've not given any kind of blanket permission for submods and an unreasonable or irrelevant request can therefore be denied (I'm not going to deny a request just because I don't want the submod's contents in the mod, however).
 
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Seeing as the idea runs afoul of nearly everything I listed as being considerations that could influence a decision not to do something that'd improve historical accuracy, I'm going to go with "No".

- Even if I thought that palace coups were a desirable feature (I really don't) I'd consider it a feature that would be nonsensical to implement without having it where historically relevant on the vanilla map (e.g. in the ERE), but the general rule for what we are and aren't doing in Tianxia is "Vanilla takes precedence" (with a few caveats not relevant here). Any implementation you could show me that adds palace coups on the vanilla map would mess with vanilla to an unacceptable degree, and any implementation you could show me that doesn't mess with vanilla to an unacceptable degree would not add them where I (in a hypothetical scenario where I thought the feature was desirable) would consider it necessary to add them if they were added.

- I've only announced a small fraction of the future plans for Tianxia. Between my various design documents, there's over a hundred items of varying size beyond those relevant to 13.0.0, and though it's possible that some of those unannounced things will turn out to be unfeasible or will be decided against for some other reason there is at least one thing that (assuming it got added) definitely would have to account for palace coups being a thing, which would result in certain complications. I'd rather avoid such unnecessary complications caused by a feature I consider undesirable.

- I don't think palace coups would be sensible to implement in a vacuum. Given this, a number of things -- such as the Mandate of Heaven and the Japanese government mess -- would likely have to be tweaked to some extent to account for palace coups being a thing, and those things are already very messy behind the scenes (largely out of necessity) and really not something I want to fiddle with unless I have to. Considering I don't want palace coups and that not adding them saves me the trouble of having to fiddle with the aforementioned things one extra time, it is prudent to avoid adding them.

- While I doubt that you'd intentionally offer something that's not working the way you want it to work, I would still need to go over it to see that it looked reasonable and then test it. Even if it's reasonably small, the script checks out, and it does what it is supposed to do, that's still time being spent on a feature that I don't want, and I'd rather spend that time either working on something that I want in the mod (or doing related activities, e.g. research or testing) or doing something that's unrelated to the mod. I'm thus going to turn down the offer to look at your work.

- As mentioned previously, we've got plenty of things left to add, and every addition comes with a performance cost. Given that there only is so much we can do to keep this performance cost down and that we are limited in what we can (and will; since we're not messing with vanilla, performance improvements to vanilla content aren't really on the table) do to decrease the overall performance cost through changes to existing content, wasting performance on an undesirable feature is unappealing, and however small the cost might be for any one feature it'd easily add up if we kept adding assorted things we don't want (and no, "I asked first, so just do my thing!" is not a remotely compelling argument). It's vastly preferable to have that performance cost "available" for features we know or decide we want (or requests we actually feel would be reasonable to accommodate), and I rather doubt it'd appeal to people if we removed features with the explanation "We didn't really want [feature] in the first place, and now adding [unrelated feature] is more reasonable from a performance standpoint!".

- I consider palace coups to be a mechanic that would be far too powerful to make exclusive to the player, and also a mechanic that would be far too dangerous to give the AI access to unless they're trivial to prevent, in which case they're not really doing what they're supposed to be doing. Given that this is far from the only objection I have, you hypothetically proving me wrong as far as this goes would be insufficient, and I don't see any reason to humour the attempt by reviewing what you've created, particularly not as that'd both make it likely that you'd iterate on the request and that someone else would make a comparable request regarding some other feature they're convinced that we want despite being told we don't want it.

- I would expect people to find being the instigator or beneficiary of a (successful) palace coup fun, but being the target of a successful palace coup is unlikely to be remotely fun, and it'd quite possibly be unfun to such an extent that people either reloaded an earlier save or abandoned the campaign right then and there and quite possibly complain about the mechanic asking for it to be changed (and, considering we're not doing frequent releases and that any changes to the mechanics thus likely wouldn't happen very quickly they might lose interest in the mod as a whole). Considering there are other ways to do takeovers (e.g. murdering your way to the throne or getting a claim(ant) and starting a faction) that I believe are less unfun (being usurped is going to be somewhat unfun regardless of how it happens) I see little reason to add palace coups and consider them extremely undesirable. Furthermore, while I did give the suggestion due consideration when it was first brought up, my dislike of palace coups is nothing new (the linked post (in a thread you should not necro) is from several months before I joined the Tianxia team, and it's possible I posted something similar elsewhere even earlier), and your chances of convincing me that they would be a good addition are non-existent.

- While I'm prepared to grant that there are people who desire this feature, mod (and game) development is not a democracy (and it shouldn't be), and while suggestions and feedback will be considered that does not guarantee that we will act on it if we think doing so is the wrong move, and we don't even have to provide an explanation or even acknowledge that we've read the suggestion/feedback. Suggestions that boil down to "You should add palace coups!" have been seen, have been considered, and have been rejected, with explanations of varying length being provided. It is understandably not the decision you (or others in favour of palace coups) would have preferred, but it is the decision that's been made, and we cannot accommodate every request and will opt against features we simply do not want even if they're being offered in a "complete" state.

- Given that I don't particularly want to release a mod including features I can't say roughly "I think this is a good feature, and a good implementation of said feature" about (even if it sometimes turns out that the feature or implementation needs adjustment), I'm not going to add a feature I consider undesirable if I can make that call, and unless LumberKing tells me to do it over my objections (and I'm unable to change his mind) I can make that call. Considering that he has given me rather broad authority to make development-related decisions, I rather doubt he'd intervene simply because I'm not giving you the answer you want, particularly not as that'd make it rather likely that any other decision I make would be appealed by someone that disagrees with it.

- While I'll grant that palace coups would increase historical accuracy, that is insufficient considering the other things listed here.

- I don't consider "Just add a game rule to disable/tweak palace coups!" a reasonable answer to all -- or even most -- of the above. A suggestion to that effect would therefore get you nowhere, so there's no need to bother with it.

- And, just to get it out of the way: While someone that becomes part of the Tianxia team could expect to be able to influence future development to a somewhat greater extent than someone that does not, they would be expected to primarily work on features deemed a priority and would also be expected to not add anything that's been deemed undesirable. Any plan along the lines of "I'll join the Tianxia team and put palace coups in Tianxia despite being told they're not wanted!" is thus doomed to failure, particularly as I'd pay attention to what got added and therefore would be able to remove anything undesirable (and any hypothetical team member that proved unable to follow instructions to the effect of "I've removed this because it's an undesirable feature. Don't put it or something similar back unless you've been told it is allowed." would likely also get removed).


To summarize: Palace coups aren't happening in Tianxia. This is my final decision on the matter, and further attempts to convince me to change this decision would be pointless and will either be ignored or referred here. Anyone that wants palace coups will have to figure out some unofficial way to add them, much like they'd have to figure out some unofficial way to do anything else that we have decided against or that we end up deciding against in the future.



If it doesn't use any of our files, go right ahead. I'm not going to look at it, but anyone that feels like it certainly can.

If it uses some of them, please specify roughly which ones (if they are vanilla files with miniscule edits (e.g. a few added Grace penalties). Per Rule 5, our consent is required prior to using our work, and though I expect to be able to grant it with only the bare minimum conditions (credit us, don't break any relevant DLC locks, and don't give other mods permission to use the stuff you got from us) we've not given any kind of blanket permission for submods and an unreasonable or irrelevant request can therefore be denied (I'm not going to deny a request just because I don't want the submod's contents in the mod, however).
I didn't use any of your files it's a stand alone mod that works with every mod.
 
Jul 1, 2020
42
54
Seeing as the idea runs afoul of nearly everything I listed as being considerations that could influence a decision not to do something that'd improve historical accuracy, I'm going to go with "No".

- Even if I thought that palace coups were a desirable feature (I really don't) I'd consider it a feature that would be nonsensical to implement without having it where historically relevant on the vanilla map (e.g. in the ERE), but the general rule for what we are and aren't doing in Tianxia is "Vanilla takes precedence" (with a few caveats not relevant here). Any implementation you could show me that adds palace coups on the vanilla map would mess with vanilla to an unacceptable degree, and any implementation you could show me that doesn't mess with vanilla to an unacceptable degree would not add them where I (in a hypothetical scenario where I thought the feature was desirable) would consider it necessary to add them if they were added.

- I've only announced a small fraction of the future plans for Tianxia. Between my various design documents, there's over a hundred items of varying size beyond those relevant to 13.0.0, and though it's possible that some of those unannounced things will turn out to be unfeasible or will be decided against for some other reason there is at least one thing that (assuming it got added) definitely would have to account for palace coups being a thing, which would result in certain complications. I'd rather avoid such unnecessary complications caused by a feature I consider undesirable.

- I don't think palace coups would be sensible to implement in a vacuum. Given this, a number of things -- such as the Mandate of Heaven and the Japanese government mess -- would likely have to be tweaked to some extent to account for palace coups being a thing, and those things are already very messy behind the scenes (largely out of necessity) and really not something I want to fiddle with unless I have to. Considering I don't want palace coups and that not adding them saves me the trouble of having to fiddle with the aforementioned things one extra time, it is prudent to avoid adding them.

- While I doubt that you'd intentionally offer something that's not working the way you want it to work, I would still need to go over it to see that it looked reasonable and then test it. Even if it's reasonably small, the script checks out, and it does what it is supposed to do, that's still time being spent on a feature that I don't want, and I'd rather spend that time either working on something that I want in the mod (or doing related activities, e.g. research or testing) or doing something that's unrelated to the mod. I'm thus going to turn down the offer to look at your work.

- As mentioned previously, we've got plenty of things left to add, and every addition comes with a performance cost. Given that there only is so much we can do to keep this performance cost down and that we are limited in what we can (and will; since we're not messing with vanilla, performance improvements to vanilla content aren't really on the table) do to decrease the overall performance cost through changes to existing content, wasting performance on an undesirable feature is unappealing, and however small the cost might be for any one feature it'd easily add up if we kept adding assorted things we don't want (and no, "I asked first, so just do my thing!" is not a remotely compelling argument). It's vastly preferable to have that performance cost "available" for features we know or decide we want (or requests we actually feel would be reasonable to accommodate), and I rather doubt it'd appeal to people if we removed features with the explanation "We didn't really want [feature] in the first place, and now adding [unrelated feature] is more reasonable from a performance standpoint!".

- I consider palace coups to be a mechanic that would be far too powerful to make exclusive to the player, and also a mechanic that would be far too dangerous to give the AI access to unless they're trivial to prevent, in which case they're not really doing what they're supposed to be doing. Given that this is far from the only objection I have, you hypothetically proving me wrong as far as this goes would be insufficient, and I don't see any reason to humour the attempt by reviewing what you've created, particularly not as that'd both make it likely that you'd iterate on the request and that someone else would make a comparable request regarding some other feature they're convinced that we want despite being told we don't want it.

- I would expect people to find being the instigator or beneficiary of a (successful) palace coup fun, but being the target of a successful palace coup is unlikely to be remotely fun, and it'd quite possibly be unfun to such an extent that people either reloaded an earlier save or abandoned the campaign right then and there and quite possibly complain about the mechanic asking for it to be changed (and, considering we're not doing frequent releases and that any changes to the mechanics thus likely wouldn't happen very quickly they might lose interest in the mod as a whole). Considering there are other ways to do takeovers (e.g. murdering your way to the throne or getting a claim(ant) and starting a faction) that I believe are less unfun (being usurped is going to be somewhat unfun regardless of how it happens) I see little reason to add palace coups and consider them extremely undesirable. Furthermore, while I did give the suggestion due consideration when it was first brought up, my dislike of palace coups is nothing new (the linked post (in a thread you should not necro) is from several months before I joined the Tianxia team, and it's possible I posted something similar elsewhere even earlier), and your chances of convincing me that they would be a good addition are non-existent.

- While I'm prepared to grant that there are people who desire this feature, mod (and game) development is not a democracy (and it shouldn't be), and while suggestions and feedback will be considered that does not guarantee that we will act on it if we think doing so is the wrong move, and we don't even have to provide an explanation or even acknowledge that we've read the suggestion/feedback. Suggestions that boil down to "You should add palace coups!" have been seen, have been considered, and have been rejected, with explanations of varying length being provided. It is understandably not the decision you (or others in favour of palace coups) would have preferred, but it is the decision that's been made, and we cannot accommodate every request and will opt against features we simply do not want even if they're being offered in a "complete" state.

- Given that I don't particularly want to release a mod including features I can't say roughly "I think this is a good feature, and a good implementation of said feature" about (even if it sometimes turns out that the feature or implementation needs adjustment), I'm not going to add a feature I consider undesirable if I can make that call, and unless LumberKing tells me to do it over my objections (and I'm unable to change his mind) I can make that call. Considering that he has given me rather broad authority to make development-related decisions, I rather doubt he'd intervene simply because I'm not giving you the answer you want, particularly not as that'd make it rather likely that any other decision I make would be appealed by someone that disagrees with it.

- While I'll grant that palace coups would increase historical accuracy, that is insufficient considering the other things listed here.

- I don't consider "Just add a game rule to disable/tweak palace coups!" a reasonable answer to all -- or even most -- of the above. A suggestion to that effect would therefore get you nowhere, so there's no need to bother with it.

- And, just to get it out of the way: While someone that becomes part of the Tianxia team could expect to be able to influence future development to a somewhat greater extent than someone that does not, they would be expected to primarily work on features deemed a priority and would also be expected to not add anything that's been deemed undesirable. Any plan along the lines of "I'll join the Tianxia team and put palace coups in Tianxia despite being told they're not wanted!" is thus doomed to failure, particularly as I'd pay attention to what got added and therefore would be able to remove anything undesirable (and any hypothetical team member that proved unable to follow instructions to the effect of "I've removed this because it's an undesirable feature. Don't put it or something similar back unless you've been told it is allowed." would likely also get removed).


To summarize: Palace coups aren't happening in Tianxia. This is my final decision on the matter, and further attempts to convince me to change this decision would be pointless and will either be ignored or referred here. Anyone that wants palace coups will have to figure out some unofficial way to add them, much like they'd have to figure out some unofficial way to do anything else that we have decided against or that we end up deciding against in the future.



If it doesn't use any of our files, go right ahead. I'm not going to look at it, but anyone that feels like it certainly can.

If it uses some of them, please specify roughly which ones (if they are vanilla files with miniscule edits (e.g. a few added Grace penalties). Per Rule 5, our consent is required prior to using our work, and though I expect to be able to grant it with only the bare minimum conditions (credit us, don't break any relevant DLC locks, and don't give other mods permission to use the stuff you got from us) we've not given any kind of blanket permission for submods and an unreasonable or irrelevant request can therefore be denied (I'm not going to deny a request just because I don't want the submod's contents in the mod, however).
A suggestion can you add a coronation event when an emperor dies and a new one ascends