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I'm aware that the legitimacy of various Chinese dynasties is a bit contentious (though Chinese history generally sides with Song), but we have to pick a side since we can't have it both ways, and even though the Treaty of Shaoxing was rather humiliating for Song they managed to keep most of their territory and even prevented (Jurchen) Jin from achieving their territorial aims (they initially wanted the border at the Yangtze), and from a gameplay standpoint it'd be mechanically inconsistent to treat that as (Jurchen) Jin being legitimized as the true China (and it'd also be messy to handle when scripting the historical war (which won't be modelled as a claim war for e_china)), which means considering Song legitimate seems like the better option.

Things would also get weird and messy when (Jurchen) Jin is destroyed (since the Mongols did that and weren't yet Yuan at that point), particularly if that happens during the game and Song pretty much instantly recreates e_china (I believe they'd have the requisite territory for that at that point) and gets an Unquestioned Mandate despite the Mongols holding a decent chunk of China, and there'd be gameplay issues for Song if they weren't e_china until Yuan destroys them (for one thing, vassals would get uppity due to not being de jure vassals) and potential issues with (Jurchen) Jin doing better than they really should (based on history) if they were e_china and got various benefits from that (de jure claims, being the Grace target, etc.) that they'd otherwise not have.

In short, I don't really see us changing (Jurchen) Jin to e_china and Song to a pretender as it doesn't really confer any advantages and comes with a bunch of drawbacks that can be foreseen.



I still don't see us considering a rework anytime soon, and it isn't certain it's something that'd be right for Tianxia or that'd work with Tianxia (particularly as we've changed several things related to the Grace system and at least a few of the additions might not work as offmap decisions).



The inspiration is sometimes pretty hard to judge, particularly as the modder and the devs could have arrived at something similar simply by looking at history, and I'm prepared to trust the devs when they say that they don't copy or take things from mods, which means they're scripting (and localizing, etc.) things on their own (which potentially could be similar to the mods script to an extent, seeing that there only are so many efficient ways to script something), so you're not paying for your own work but for their work. Also, the modding rules are pretty clear about mods and copyright claims (mods can't claim any copyright), the amount of any given DLC that's similar to a mod isn't necessarily significant, and, well, the devs can't be expected to be familiar with all mods or even all mechanics in more well-known mods, could potentially have decided to add (and potentially have gotten around to doing some of that work) prior to a mod having done something, and can't be expected to avoid doing something just because a mod got around to it before them.

Regardless, the modding rules, how PDS does DLCs or operate when doing something similar to a mod, and the like is pretty off-topic, so we'd prefer not to have that discussion here.



1. Event chains for Boons and Tributes are, again, likely to get annoying compared to straightforward events since you'll get them a lot if you're sitting on the Dragon Throne, and they're, again, not a priority. Also, the Emperor of China has a fairly good amount of content already, which means giving him more isn't a priority, and without concrete ideas that we like it's not certain it'll happen.
2. Palace coups seem like a mechanic that'd not be particularly fun (even compared to other ways of being deposed, such as factions) to deal with as the ruler if they succeed, and that'd not be particularly fun to use if they generally fail, so it seems prudent not to have them.
3. I already replied regarding factions, including there being ways to faction to overthrow the current dynasty if their Mandate isn't in a good spot.
4. To my knowledge, we've not made any DLC content available to anyone without the relevant DLC. If you think we have, please let me know which content that would be so that it can be investigated.
5. Any plots or factions that would mess with vanilla aren't happening since we're not messing with vanilla, any plots or factions found elsewhere might not be in the interest of the average player (or the Tianxia team) and wouldn't necessary be something we could add even if we wanted to, and we're not going to add plots or factions unless we've got actual concrete ideas for them that we believe would be good for Tianxia.
Ok that's fine I can add sub mods but at least add a chain for the emperor for kowtow to china.
 
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Ok that's fine I can add sub mods but at least add a chain for the emperor for kowtow to china.

It's possible the kowtow event chain (which the EoC already potentially gets involved in to a small extent) will be expanded in the future, but not until China once more is the focus area, and that's not going to be the case anytime soon.
 
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If you won't do it I will make a submod for it.

That's an option.

I think the only file in the mod you'd need to include in such a submod would be jd_kowtow_events.txt, assuming you're linking whatever you're adding to what already exists, and since that's a vanilla file (with some edits) I'm prepared to say we'd not mind you including that file if you decide to make your submod available to others, and I doubt we'd care about the other modified vanilla files relevant to the kowtow either. I don't really expect you to need to include any of the relevant files we've created (though it might depend on the specifics of what you do), but if you need some of them we'd likely be fine with it as long as you added credits where necessary (though as I don't know for sure which files it'd be it's impossible to grant permission prior to knowing which files it'd be).

Also what are court mechanics?

What are you referring to? It's not clear from the quote or the preceding conversation, unless you're referring to the court societies, in which case I already answered that we can't take stuff from other mods without permission, that doing societies are messy and would create some foreseeable issues, and that anything similar implemented in another way isn't happening anytime soon because we're not going to be making any big changes to China/Chinese Imperial/etc. for several major versions.


Let me be clear here:

The current state of Tianxia is flavour-wise, mechanics-wise, and at least to an extent history file-wise is very heavily focused on China and Japan, due to a combination of JD adding stuff for China (which we kept to the extent we deemed it feasible), there being a pretty good amount of information about those areas compared to at least some others, a decision to focus on getting those areas (and the four earliest start dates) in decent shape as part of the 0.1.0 update as we figured those areas would be of interest to the most people (particularly as they tend to be the areas that get most exposure in media), and due to there being a decent amount of ideas as to what we could add when the decision was made (quite a few of those ideas turned out to be feasible and have been added, some have been postponed as future maybes, some things that were unplanned at the start got added since they turned out to be doable, and a few things got cut due to not panning out or not seeming as such a good idea upon further thought).

However, the goal for Tianxia is to (as far as reasonable; some areas are unfortunately going to be very difficult) flesh out pretty much every area we've added (the additions in Africa are unlikely to get fleshed out aside from any improvements we can make regarding the historical setup), even though China historically viewed itself as the centre of the universe and Japan effectively ignored the rest of the world in the era, even though Hollywood generally would have you believe that China and Japan are the only parts of Asia that really matter, and even though we've still got things we want to add/improve in China and Japan (some of which are known to be doable). We'll revisit those areas in the future, to be sure, and unless the plan changes we'll even get around to them prior to some other areas that are in a worse state (there are reasons for it that should become clear down the line), but outside of work that's strictly necessary to get done right away, bugfixes/balance tweaks, and minor things done when taking a short break from working on the focus area without taking a break from modding we'll leave non-focus areas alone until it's their time, and what we decide to do as part of the last category -- and what we consider good candidates in the first place -- is for us to decide.

If there's something exciting to add elsewhere -- whether something suggested by someone not contributing to the mod or something thought of by someone contributing to the mod -- that doesn't fall under any of the above, there are three options: Doing it in addition to what's already planned in a certain version, doing it instead of what's planned in a certain version, and doing it in a later version. Feature creep is undesirable since it means delays (or a less polished release, or a need to find more time for modding at the expense of other commitments and hobbies), and so's cutting/postponing/slimming down the content for the focus area in favour of unrelated areas (that'll be the focus in the future), which means the third option is what we'll go with.
 
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That's an option.

I think the only file in the mod you'd need to include in such a submod would be jd_kowtow_events.txt, assuming you're linking whatever you're adding to what already exists, and since that's a vanilla file (with some edits) I'm prepared to say we'd not mind you including that file if you decide to make your submod available to others, and I doubt we'd care about the other modified vanilla files relevant to the kowtow either. I don't really expect you to need to include any of the relevant files we've created (though it might depend on the specifics of what you do), but if you need some of them we'd likely be fine with it as long as you added credits where necessary (though as I don't know for sure which files it'd be it's impossible to grant permission prior to knowing which files it'd be).



What are you referring to? It's not clear from the quote or the preceding conversation, unless you're referring to the court societies, in which case I already answered that we can't take stuff from other mods without permission, that doing societies are messy and would create some foreseeable issues, and that anything similar implemented in another way isn't happening anytime soon because we're not going to be making any big changes to China/Chinese Imperial/etc. for several major versions.


Let me be clear here:

The current state of Tianxia is flavour-wise, mechanics-wise, and at least to an extent history file-wise is very heavily focused on China and Japan, due to a combination of JD adding stuff for China (which we kept to the extent we deemed it feasible), there being a pretty good amount of information about those areas compared to at least some others, a decision to focus on getting those areas (and the four earliest start dates) in decent shape as part of the 0.1.0 update as we figured those areas would be of interest to the most people (particularly as they tend to be the areas that get most exposure in media), and due to there being a decent amount of ideas as to what we could add when the decision was made (quite a few of those ideas turned out to be feasible and have been added, some have been postponed as future maybes, some things that were unplanned at the start got added since they turned out to be doable, and a few things got cut due to not panning out or not seeming as such a good idea upon further thought).

However, the goal for Tianxia is to (as far as reasonable; some areas are unfortunately going to be very difficult) flesh out pretty much every area we've added (the additions in Africa are unlikely to get fleshed out aside from any improvements we can make regarding the historical setup), even though China historically viewed itself as the centre of the universe and Japan effectively ignored the rest of the world in the era, even though Hollywood generally would have you believe that China and Japan are the only parts of Asia that really matter, and even though we've still got things we want to add/improve in China and Japan (some of which are known to be doable). We'll revisit those areas in the future, to be sure, and unless the plan changes we'll even get around to them prior to some other areas that are in a worse state (there are reasons for it that should become clear down the line), but outside of work that's strictly necessary to get done right away, bugfixes/balance tweaks, and minor things done when taking a short break from working on the focus area without taking a break from modding we'll leave non-focus areas alone until it's their time, and what we decide to do as part of the last category -- and what we consider good candidates in the first place -- is for us to decide.

If there's something exciting to add elsewhere -- whether something suggested by someone not contributing to the mod or something thought of by someone contributing to the mod -- that doesn't fall under any of the above, there are three options: Doing it in addition to what's already planned in a certain version, doing it instead of what's planned in a certain version, and doing it in a later version. Feature creep is undesirable since it means delays (or a less polished release, or a need to find more time for modding at the expense of other commitments and hobbies), and so's cutting/postponing/slimming down the content for the focus area in favour of unrelated areas (that'll be the focus in the future), which means the third option is what we'll go with.
It's a good mod you did a great job but for me it's a china mod which is why if this is ok my submod will add one faction for china more kowtow events and a make peripheral tributary cb for a heavy cost. And some flavor events for the emperor. And the rest I can make mods compatible for it.

Oh and by court mechanics I heard their were court mechanics for this mod you listed in features " Sons of Heaven"
 

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It's a good mod you did a great job but for me it's a china mod which is why if this is ok my submod will add one faction for china more kowtow events and a make peripheral tributary cb for a heavy cost. And some flavor events for the emperor. And the rest I can make mods compatible for it.

We can't limit what's added in a submod (and a submod can't limit what we do in the future), only what's copied from Tianxia, and by the sound of things you'd only need to copy things in order to properly connect your submod with the main mod, which likely wouldn't be a problem for the things you describe as long as you're following the general modding rules and give us credit.

Oh and by court mechanics I heard their were court mechanics for this mod you listed in features " Sons of Heaven"

The Sons of Heaven, Khans of Mongolia, and Mekong Rajas feature lists (and some other early "plans") haven't been touched for years and they (and some of the early dev diaries) can't really be considered accurate any longer since they predate some significant vanilla changes/additions (e.g. Khans of Mongolia was announced well before Horse Lords) that sometimes have made previous plans obsolete or unfeasible and that sometimes have created new possibilities. On top of that, sometimes it isn't clear what the plan actually was (there aren't extensive design documents far back and people have moved on/become inactive), and sometimes things that seemed interesting at first no longer interest us and won't get added unless it's critical to add them. This is a large part of why plans currently aren't announced far in advance and are kept fairly vague even when they're announced.
 
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We can't limit what's added in a submod (and a submod can't limit what we do in the future), only what's copied from Tianxia, and by the sound of things you'd only need to copy things in order to properly connect your submod with the main mod, which likely wouldn't be a problem for the things you describe as long as you're following the general modding rules and give us credit.



The Sons of Heaven, Khans of Mongolia, and Mekong Rajas feature lists (and some other early "plans") haven't been touched for years and they (and some of the early dev diaries) can't really be considered accurate any longer since they predate some significant vanilla changes/additions (e.g. Khans of Mongolia was announced well before Horse Lords) that sometimes have made previous plans obsolete or unfeasible and that sometimes have created new possibilities. On top of that, sometimes it isn't clear what the plan actually was (there aren't extensive design documents far back and people have moved on/become inactive), and sometimes things that seemed interesting at first no longer interest us and won't get added unless it's critical to add them. This is a large part of why plans currently aren't announced far in advance and are kept fairly vague even when they're announced.
Do the mehcanics work with mp.
 

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Do the mehcanics work with mp.

I'm assuming "mp" is "multiplayer"? We've not done any multiplayer testing, so it's possible something could break specifically in multiplayer games, but it's also possible that everything works as well as it does in singleplayer.
 
Development Diary 46: Great Works, Artefacts, and a Few Other Things

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Dev diary 46 - Great Works, artefacts, and a few other things

A bunch of things have gotten done, and I figure you probably will find some of them interesting


Great Works:

Three new historical Great Works have been added.

The first is the Seokguram Grotto and Bulguksa Temple. Located in Gyeongju, this is yet another slightly cheaper copy-paste of the Great Buddhist Temple (consistent with how vanilla handles its historical Great Works that are religious buildings). It starts at Stage 3 in 769 and is fully constructed in all other starts.

ck2_1.png



The second Great Work is Ise Grand Shrine. It is naturally located in Ise and is fully operational in all start dates. This is a copy-paste of a new Great Shrine Great Work type available for Shinto and Japonic Buddhist rulers.

ck2_2.png


These Great Shrines have access to a few generic upgrades and some unique ones, with the most interesting new ones being Grand Shrines and Shrines dedicated to certain kami. There are twelve to choose from -- Amaterasu-Omikami, Ame-no-Uzume, Hachiman, Inari Okami, Izanagi, Izanami, Ningi-no-Mikoto, Omoikane, Ryujin, Susanoo-no-Mikoto, Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto, and Takemikazuchi -- each with their own separate bonuses, with the Grand Shrine providing a greater bonus than the Shrine. You can only build one Grand Shrine upgrade but can build multiple lesser ones once the Grand Shrine upgrade is done (but not towards the same kami as the Grand Shrine upgrade), so you will have to decide which kami you wish to dedicate a certain Great Work towards (Ise only allows Amaterasu, even if you destroy all upgrades and start over, because Ise is primarily dedicated to Amaterasu).

As it is a bit more interesting to have the Imperial Regalia around as artefacts we've elected not to have the Sacred Mirror actually stored in Ise Grand Shrine, and the decision to store artefacts has been altered to prevent storing the Imperial Regalia as it otherwise gets "destroyed".


The third, and final, Great Work that has been added is unique, seeing as it is the Temple and Cemetery of Confucius (before you get overly excited, we've not added Confucianism as its own religion), and you can't very well have a second copy of him buried somewhere without digging him up and cloning him just so you can bury the clone. Located in Jining (actually Qufu, but the province is Jining), this Great Work has completely unique upgrades, and starts at different levels of completion in various starts (and is damaged for about a century from 1214).

ck2_3.png



With these three Great Works added, Tianxia has added a total of six new historical Great Works (the others being Borobudur, the Shwedagon Pagoda, and Angkor Wat). Given that we've got roughly 50 % more provinces than vanilla and that vanilla only has ten Great Works, we've already added a slightly disproportionate amount, so it is somewhat unlikely that we will add more as things currently stand.


Artefacts:

A good number of historical artefacts have been added, even if all of them are not around in every start (some of them were created rather late). They are:

- The King of Na gold seal
- Shaka rising from the Gold Coffin
- The Murasaki Shikibu Diary Emaki
- The Nishi Honganji Sanju-rokunin Kashu
- The "Hell Scroll"
- The Genji Monogatari Emaki
- Extermination of Evil
- The Ngoc Lu drum
- The Gilt-bronze Maitreya in Meditation
- The other Gilt-bronze Maitreya in Meditation ("We've already got one of those!")
- The Gilt-bronze Incense Burner of Baekje
- The Ishinpō
- The Tale of the Heike

It's all but guaranteed that there will be more artefacts added at some point in the future, but maybe not in the next update (we'll see), and we did of course add a whole bunch of them several updates back.


Other things:

A number of other things have been done as well, and some of those relevant to China/Chinese Imperial are worth highlighting.

First off, there's a new CB available for vassals of Chinese Imperial empires when their top liege's Mandate rating drops below Average: Pacification (ignore the localization bug; it'll be fixed).

ck2_5.png


This CB allows all feudal (which includes Confucian Bureaucracy) vassals to declare a duchy-tier war against fellow vassals, targeting a duchy that's either neighbouring or within two sea zones. To the untrained eye, this might look like the vassal trying to grow their own powerbase prior to possibly going after the emperor (or independence), but it's surely just a case of restoring order in the emperor's name. Jokes aside, this should make life rather more exciting if someone's Mandate rating drops and should allow for regional warlords to rise, which of course is rather historical.


The second, related change is that the "Claim Liege title" plot no longer can be used against a Chinese Imperial empire by someone that's "Chinese enough" (ignoring the game rule), because a new plot has been added that has the potential to be more dangerous (again, ignore the localization issues).

ck2_6.png


This plot is available for all "Chinese enough" (ignoring the game rule) vassals, not just king-tier vassals as would be the case for the normal plot, if the Mandate rating drops below Average (or if it is Average and they're either king-tier or a member of a Chinese Imperial bloodline (real or pretender)). Success gives you a claim on the empire title of your liege (not on China, unless the two are the same) and some prestige while potentially hurting the Mandate rating of your liege further, failure is treason (meaning your liege gets a "Traitor" opinion modifier towards you and thus a valid imprisonment and revocation reason). This should hopefully make weaker realms a bit more likely to see a ruler -- and possibly dynasty -- change.


Thirdly, the voting logic for Pragmatist (which is most of them) Council Eunuchs has been adjusted a bit when it comes to title granting and title revocation (some of the checkmarks in the screenshot look a bit odd and will be investigated; I suspect a stray NOT or two...).

ck2_7.png


The Council Eunuchs will now oppose granting titles to -- and approve revoking titles from (unless it's tyrannical, in which case Chinese Imperial already is blocked from doing it) -- characters that are already ruling in a different de jure structure (China didn't really do vassalgore), in line to inherit titles not part of the same de jure structure, underage, or that have a regent. This should fix a few issues regarding the AI granting titles to children, heirs, or landed rulers that have no business holding a certain title when it has other options and should slightly help the emperor correct such issues if he has a revocation reason.


That's all for now. As mentioned in the previous dev diary, it might be a while before the next one since it'll be a while before something major is done and there might not be enough minor things done to be worth a dev diary.
 
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How long is the Treasure Fleet preparation period supposed to be?

A bit over two years. If it's been significantly longer, make a bug report in the bug report thread.
 

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Is there some kind of weighting when it comes to which vassal receives the man tributes (physician, commanders, etc)? For me, it always default to my African vassals.
 

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Is there some kind of weighting when it comes to which vassal receives the man tributes (physician, commanders, etc)? For me, it always default to my African vassals.

It's supposed to be a non-baron that's not "hated" by China (the china_hates_prevprev_trigger scripted_trigger) and that ideally is an "interesting" character (using interesting_courtier_selection_score). I'm unsure exactly how interesting_courtier_selection_score works (it's a vanilla thing), but it's possible that could favour your African vassals for some reason..
 

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How can I use the Living Flame against my enemies?

There's a decision available to burninate the province you're currently in with extreme prejudice, which you can use if you're either at war with the owner or have the Lunatic or the Possessed trait, so take command of an army, march to your target, and take the decision (and confirm that you actually want to take it). Just don't expect it to be a popular move, and don't expect the province to be remotely useful to anyone anytime soon.
 

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Is Tianxia compatible with the Eu4 converter?

No. I don't think it'll crash or fail to produce a conversion that can be used in EU4 (assuming the Converter is up to date; it wasn't always patched promptly in the past), but it'll only convert the vanilla area and won't know what to do with new titles/religions/etc. since we've not done any compatibility.

It's possible we'll make it compatible at some point in the future, but even if it only had to be done once (which would require EU4 to no longer be getting updates) it'd have about the same priority as Random World starts, which is to say lower priority than everything affecting normal Tianxia gameplay in CK2, and we have a large number of things affecting normal gameplay that are still to be done, several of which will require a significant amount of work.
 
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What good is there in being the Permanent Regent?

You can (if the right power laws are enabled) relegate the Tenno's (or Shogun's, except for the succession part) current wife to a consort and replace her with a kinswoman (establishing an NAP), hand-pick his successor (from among his dynasty members), transfer money from him, transfer vassals from him, transfer titles (that aren't k_chrysanthemum_throne or empire-tier) from him, execute his prisoners, release his prisoners, and somewhat control his council's voting (as councillors won't act against you/your family unless they're your rivals), which lets you wield rather considerable power behind the throne. You'd probably be able to wield more power if you were the Tenno (or Shogun) and didn't have a Permanent Regent (particularly if you depower your council), but you'll probably be rather more powerful/have more opportunities to grow your power than pretty much any other vassal ruler (with a comparable set of CBs/etc.).

It's possible we'll expand on these powers a bit in the future if we can think of something we want to add (suggestions are welcome, though it's unlikely that we'll add anything before we get around to working on Japan again in a future update), but between hardcoded limitations (CK2 isn't built for anything similar), gameplay concerns (we don't want a Tenno/Shogun with a Permanent Regent to be effectively unplayable), and how things worked historically (e.g. the Imperial Family has never been removed from the Chrysanthemum Throne, even if some individual rulers have been deposed) it's not certain we'll be able to expand on the powers or that we'll decide that it's a bad idea to expand them in a certain way that'd be possible from a scripting standpoint due to it making the Tenno/Shogun side of things too restrictive/unfun (even if it should be restrictive and might be unfun to an extent to encourage you to maybe get rid of the Permanent Regent) or making no sense historically (we'll not always opt for historical accuracy, but there are things we consider particularly important to have as accurate as possible, and the Chrysanthemum Throne's status is one such thing).
 
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