[MOD] The Prince and the Thane - 1.092 Only

[brown111]

What do you mean placeholder ?

There is few identical COA-s for different dynasties - for example Salian in Germany have Polish COA-s from Piast Dynasty.

 

[Solo_Adhémar]

That's intentional then.

I was worried for a second, the placeholders are squares of colours or completely green (0 255 0) and should never appear ingame.

 

[unmerged(444318)]

Do I have a wrong understanding of independence? If I win the war, my liege will be my new liege?

http://imgur.com/7om4mNn

 

[brown111]

That's intentional then.

I was worried for a second, the placeholders are squares of colours or completely green (0 255 0) and should never appear ingame.

Waitwaitwaitwait
Is it intentional that german dynasty of Salian have polish COA's? Why?
BTW, Polish white eagle on red background is not appopriate - of course - too. White egle appeared in XII century, when czech' dynasty of Premyslid had popularized it in our lands.

 

[Smaragd]

Please, make some empire for unified Georgia, Armenia and Alania.

 

[Solo_Adhémar]

Eagles have nothing specifically polish about them, they are popular in pretty much all of Europe and were already used in the ottonian pre-heraldic emblematics which explains the Salian emblem (can't be anything else than the ottonian eagle and imperial colours, inverting them would only make it similar to other dynasties) and the later imperial arms of the Hohenstaufen dynasty.

There's no heraldry before the XIIth century so it's only logical that it appears only at that time.

 

[brown111]

"There's no heraldry before the XIIth century"

Then, in this case I can enjoy the COA of Polish Kingdom is not a black eagle on a green background

But seriously - thank you for your commitment and interesting work

 

[Solo_Adhémar]

And it will only get worse with the new OG start date. Everything before 1135 is already highly speculative as it is, other than the very small number of pre-heraldic emblems we know of, and arguably all early heraldry also is unless it's known by anything else than sigillography : colour changes were the most common one in early heraldic groups and could have a good number of reasons behind them (dynastic or political alliances, symbolism, matters of taste).

The statistic that illustrates that the most is the percentage of blue (azure) in heraldry : before 1200 it represents less than 5% of all arms, while it amounts for more than 40% of all european arms after 1400. Examples like the Andechs or the counts of Burgundy also attest that it non only affects newly created emblems but older ones too. One of my studies about southern french heraldry was about the level of accuracy of modern armorials (the likes of Hozier and Rietstap) compared to actual medieval iconographic testimonies. I can tell you more than a quarter of all the dynasties from the corpus had changed their original colours to azure/gold or azure/argent (the later is more modern, after azure/gold became too common) between the 14th and the 17th centuries (another quarter had changed their arms completely).

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

You could just put English = "England" instead (even the missing quote marks can mess things iirc).

The weirdest thing is that even when I replace the modified landed_titles file with the one I had saved as backup, it doesn't solve the messy heraldry :/

The problem, and that I know better than probably anyone on these forums (my GF at university was a specialist of medieval occitan) is that most medieval vernacular forms for occitan proper names (including a good part of the first names) are completely lost. All modern forms are useless because the language was recodified by Mistral in the late 19th century discarding all previous etimology. The modern names for all kind of places will follow that pattern and thus have nothing to do with the original names and since many cities were renamed during the french revolution ...

That's the reason why I'll take down all localization in the occitan and francoprovençal counties (we agreed on taking down most unecessary or in that case inaccurate endonyms, and anyway forms like "Angliétèrre" have nothing to do with medieval history), because it's just gibberish and the characters and places are better off using modern french because it's easier to make things accurate (by not trying to occitanize names that never existed in the middle ages). Paradox thinks that "Robèrt" is more authentic medieval than "Robert" but the latter is actually the medieval form and the former is just an anachronism.

I agree with you on the problem, and I'm aware, but it kills my immersion to see the County of Toulouse full of Armands, Guillaumes, Amaurys and Raymonds. I think using modern Occitan names when we don't know the Medieval form is a good way to go, because it's not too off and it's good for flavour, which is very important too.

Spoiler

You have, anyway, a good deal of XIIIth Century versions of many Occitan names in tobadour poems. I'm holding in my hands the complete poetry of William of Aquitaine wherethere's an anonymous Vida made in the XIIIth Century, probably by a Languedocian: "mollier del rei Enric d'Engleterra, maire del rei Jove e d'En Richart e del comte Jaufre de Bretaingna"

If you insist on accuracy on these levels, you could even try make your own Medieval versions of their given names and toponymia. It could be a fun exercise for someone who's expert on Medieval Occitan. It's either that, and Montpellier goes back to being Montpesliers, as it should be, or else Melgueil is renamed Mauguio, which is its name today. I can also give you a list of Catalan name from the XII-XIIIth Century adapted to its most widespread ortography (at the time). After all, Ramon and Remon sound the same now and 800 years ago.

I fixed the thing with the counts of Toulouse. It's not so much about the duke of Narbonne because they were known by that title in Provence (in the contemporary acts I mean) but because it's more academic of course (they are traditionnaly refered as dukes of Narbonne or marquess of Provence only in a context specifically referring to those titles), plus I need some variety in the emblems (there are enough bosonid crosses already).

Yes, maybe you're right. What became of the Bosonid pals, by the way? I noticed you took most of them away, in Provence and Tuscany.

 

[eatme]

Eagles have nothing specifically polish about them, they are popular in pretty much all of Europe and were already used in the ottonian pre-heraldic emblematics which explains the Salian emblem (can't be anything else than the ottonian eagle and imperial colours, inverting them would only make it similar to other dynasties) and the later imperial arms of the Hohenstaufen dynasty.

There's no heraldry before the XIIth century so it's only logical that it appears only at that time.

Ok but even when starting game at 12-13 cc bookmark the house CoAs are still generic -) For the sake of immersion and accuracy this can be adjusted so that major houses have their unique CoAs.
http://www.earlyblazon.com/
My main question why has this changed to most houses having generic CoAs and not diverse like it was in 1911 version

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

Ok but even when starting game at 12-13 cc bookmark the house CoAs are still generic -) For the sake of immersion and accuracy this can be adjusted so that major houses have their unique CoAs.
http://www.earlyblazon.com/
My main question why has this changed to most houses having generic CoAs and not diverse like it was in 1911 version

The Salians don't have any specific CoA, they rose and fell before the establishment of heraldry. And most of the CoAs are actually accurate and adapted for a XII, XIIIth Century start. Nothing generic about them.

If you want XV-XVIth Century heraldry for a game that happens mostly between 1066 and 1300, well, that's another thing.

 

[Solo_Adhémar]

You're asking for a pharaonic task Cesar, going back and searching for vernacular forms will take dozens and dozens of hours. In truth it would be much more simple to find the latin equivalents than it is to find medieval vernacular when it comes to thousands of individual and place names. Of course I have a list of place names in medieval occitans but it covers maybe 1% of all needs (remember there are hundreds of dynastic names to find too, if it was to be done). The reason why I hate the modern forms in occitan and francoprovençal is because they don't respect any etimology and are most of the time made up by city councils for touristic reasons. My town decided in the 90's to do so and you'd be amazed to know a single person (not even a permanent employee) who didn't even know anything about occitan or the first crusade chose the official occitan name by herself : Montéleimar. Of course the city wasn't named Montélimar in the middle ages so it's a bit futile to try and occitanize that name in the first place. Since the name is derived from the fame of its ruling dynasty (Monteil des Adhémar), it's very similar to Bar-le-Duc and anybody would find dubious at best to convert that name to vernacular lorrain.

Those cases of modern back-formation aren't confined to occitan either. In francoprovençal you have Grenoble (really random example, pretty much all names are like that) which is the corruption of the latin name still in use in the middle ages Gratianopolis. The modern vernacular form is Grenoblo (there's an accent on the end O) which of course has nothing to do with the medieval francoprovençal Greynouvol but is simply a backwards translation of the modern french name. All of that is the side effect of how successfull the french kings were in eradicating the local languages (by eradicating it in the nobility, which the bourgeoisie imitated by principle) in the early modern era to a point that there was almost nothing left by the 17th century (there's no local author of any importance using vernacular after 1600).

It's not perfect of course, but I'm convinced the only way to make something consistent and coherent is using modern french since it's the academic form used for both occitan and francoprovençal. I understand a name like Raymond de Saint-Gilles may sound strange to a catalan speaker but it's the french academic name at the same time (which makes it more familiar to a lot of people including me). Going the way of modern occitan and francoprovençal would also justify going the way of "Angliétèrre" and we're not specially impressed (I think I'm speaking for Idib too, we seemed to agree on it) at how it makes the games look and feel.

Yes, maybe you're right. What became of the Bosonid pals, by the way? I noticed you took most of them away, in Provence and Tuscany.

That's because they are not bosonid but burgundian pals. Since the bosonid counts opposed the last kings of Burgundy they chose a very different emblem than most of the former counts which is more and more obvious the closer you get to the heart of the kingdom in modern french speaking Switzerland (where the pals are the most commons in all of european heraldry). That's why it was so perfect and elegant as a choice for the new counts : it represented a former legitimate higher authority and opposed the emblem of all the other claimants. Other former counts which wanted to reinforce the idea that they are a local authory with a tradition going back to the old kingdoms chose the pals : Faucigny, Grandson, Nice-Orange-Valence (reconstructed but there's no doubt about the heraldic group).

 

[Arumba]

Keyboard Shortcuts Mod has been updated, please consider updating this for the next release of TPATT! Thank you.

 

[Solo_Adhémar]

Ok but even when starting game at 12-13 cc bookmark the house CoAs are still generic -) For the sake of immersion and accuracy this can be adjusted so that major houses have their unique CoAs.
http://www.earlyblazon.com/
My main question why has this changed to most houses having generic CoAs and not diverse like it was in 1911 version

The Early Blazon website which I've been a regular contributor to and knows rather well because of that, isn't exactly the best argument you can find to say I should make things different. You're only giving me more material to prove my point here.

I'm not sure what you find generic about my work. Is it because the style is the same everywhere on the map ? In that case you'll be surprised to learn that style doesn't exist in heraldry. It's not part of the blazon, so it can't be translated on paper and thus contradicts the whole first principle of heraldry : the blazon and the emblem are the same thing, one can replace and transform into the other at any point, everything is conceptual including the colours and the artist is the only one responsible for its interpretation in art, any way he sees fit. In the case of the mod I'm placing myself into the shoes of a medieval artist, so think of it as a gigantic roll of arms with someone painting it for you.

Look at the roll of arms in the website you linked. Brian Timms took hundreds and hundreds of hours to reproduce them. Even better, look at the original documents on internet, most of them can be found now with the progress of digitized iconography. You'll see that the style is the same from the beginning to end of a same armorial (or a wall painting for that matter).

 

[man_utdmasta]

getting a CTD but there is nothing in the error log??

 

[Hamza]

I'm playing the latest version of TPTT and I'm experiencing weird functionality. Almost all my Feudal vassals are sending me negative tax income. -0.12/70 tax, for instance. The same thing with my Church vassals. Only my city vassals are sending me lots of money.

All my relationships with them are at 80-100. Is this working as designed -- some kind of feudal income nerf?

Edit: Did some thread searching and others have experienced this too. Bug, or an intended income nerf to keep the game balanced?

 

[tokle]

I did the test. All I changed was taking out the "English=Englaland" part. Blam! Messy heraldry again. It's really a strange thing, I reckon that if I did change some brackets, etc, it would not work. But it would not mess the heraldry up.

It's the only noticeable error I can see, messy heraldry. The rest, it all works fine. I'm also finding very odd that I'm the only one that had this thing.

Maybe my computer did really get dumb a week ago.

I can delete those lines without it making any problems with the heraldry.

 

[gomurr]

Have a small question regarding the holdings of holy orders. So, playing a game as the Kingdom of Jerusalem, I created the Order of St. Lazarus, which holds the barony of St-Samuel. It says this barony belongs to the county of Jerusalem, though I cannot see it anywhere when I look at the county, nor does it appear in the county's de-jure list. Since I can't see it in the county, I can't figure out how to create a new baron it, and when I try to give it away (either to a relative, or to the Grandmaster of the Order of St. Laz) it does not appear on the list of titles that I can give. So, right now it's effectively a demesne size handicap. Has anyone else run into this issue? And is there a way I can be rid of this barony? Thanks in advance!

 

[Divi]

Does anyone else get a crash when trying to look the trade maps as a feudal lord? Both the family trade map when I look up a republic and the regular trade map CTD for me (mac version if it matters). EDIt - Nevermind, I'm doing a republic game and it starts doing it too now.

EDIT - So it generally works except for this one game. I have slight suspicions that this may have to do with the title I used for that republic, which was one of the English Peerages that I ended up consoling to the Mayor of London. In which case it's just a user issue.

Also if I may nitpick
- Has anyone ever pointed out that the gaelic scots have germanic titles when the mixed Scots have gaelic titles?
- If I may make a few suggestions: Buchan should be moved to Albany. As De Jure Moray it a) makes the map of Scotland ugly and b) makes Moray too powerful. The title earl for welsh should be Prince (since the english have earl for amost every grade of title this should work out just fine). I fail to see why cornish culture exists instead of just making it Breton or Welsh since Cador of Cornwall got cut anyway, it seems a bit like needless detail when other more important regions don't have this level of detail.
- Forez in Bourbon rather than Lyonnais is putting the cart before the horse: the county was a dismemberment of Lyons, formed the main estates of the dauphins of Lyon for a while, and were held through the entire period by the same family as Dauphine. It only passed to the Bourbons right after the game by inheritance.
- From 1066 to 1072, Cornwall should be held by 354 (Briac de Penthievre; it should also be Brien) after which he should be revoked, join Ralph de Gael's court, and eventually be banished with him in 1075. He should also be infirm after the revolt of the earls. Whether he was actually earl is uncertain but he was the main landlord in Cornwall at the time so I figure it's close enough and there's even less attesting Robert de Mortain being earl prior to 1072, and it's also uncertain whether Robert's title of earl was a grant or merely a confirmation of his status as the paramount lord in Cornwall: the early norman feudal system is extremely different from the Tudor-Stuart absolutism inherited situation we know today. Here's a pastebin - http://pastebin.com/05amG1LS

Edit - For the messy heraldry problem: every time you edit a title file, you need to delete the flag cache in your user gfx folder.

 

[Solo_Adhémar]

I can delete those lines without it making any problems with the heraldry.

Maybe it's the app you're using Cesar.

- Forez in Bourbon rather than Lyonnais is putting the cart before the horse: the county was a dismemberment of Lyons, formed the main estates of the dauphins of Lyon for a while, and were held through the entire period by the same family as Dauphine. It only passed to the Bourbons right after the game by inheritance.

- About Forez, it's gonna be taken care of when I get to this part of the map, no worries. That said, the counts of Forez dropped their claim and rights to Lyonnais in the mid XIIth century. They also only styled themselves dauphins of Forez much later in the late XIIIth century (they were the last of the three to do so).