[Mod] The Matter of Britain

[RedRooster81]

It would be nice if the symbol of the insular Christian faith was a Celtic cross.

Speaking of which... any Druidic holdouts in ex-Roman Britain? I'm sure Ireland would still be thoroughly Druidic, as 495 is about the time St. Patrick went there.

Religion is one area that is hard to figure out exactly. When the Romans left in c410, many of the Romanized Celts who had been Christians abandoned Christianity as one aspect of "Romanness". Many of the aristocrats remained Christian but turned to Pelagianism. Cornwall, the lower Midlands, and South Wales seems to have been a bastion of Roman Christianity and Roman culture. For now, I'm coupling 'insular' religion with 'Briton' or 'Irish' culture. I figure that North Wales and a lot of North Britain practiced druidism, and there were also some Near Eastern cults located around the more Romanized areas like Hadrian's Wall, London, and other places that had garrisons for a long time. Shrines to Mithras were discovered in these places, and there is a suggestion that in Cornwall, Tintagel was the site of a cult to Hercules. In 410, a lot of this would still be going on, and even by the 490s I imagine that there was a pretty wide spread of beliefs in the supernatural. Then we have the Saxons, Angles, and Jutes who bring in something close to Norse Paganism. I'd like to leave it up to personal choice for the player in particular, but there is not a strong organized religious body until much later, when you can have a event like Augustine of Canterbury showing up to get Britain in line with Rome.

So there is a lot of room for complex religious stuff in this mod. Right now though as I am creating province files I'm leaving most provinces as "insular". But this will change later. For the event mod that will be an add-on to Matter of Britain, there will be a lot of religious and magical stuff going on.

 

[Orinsul]

It would be nice if the symbol of the insular Christian faith was a Celtic cross.

Speaking of which... any Druidic holdouts in ex-Roman Britain? I'm sure Ireland would still be thoroughly Druidic, as 495 is about the time St. Patrick went there.

Didnt the Romans kill the Druids? I think everything ive ever heard about druids included that the romans killed them. Also were they ever in ireland? they were a conquering class in briton not related to the celtic pagans at all and ireland still had very strong celtic pagan tradition well into the modern age which suggests that either some legends never die or that christianity was the first major outside influence. I dunno know as ive never really studied up on Druids.
Theyre not alluded or referenced in the irish invasion myths and etc though and youd think if a foreign priestly class had moved in theyd get a nod there.

I was about to start working on a modette to add in the Cauldron. With a "Preiddeu Annwn" quest based on the gates on hell event chain for Arthur [or anyone else heroic enough] to use pilgrim traits to goto Annwn and bring back the cauldron at great risk to himself and his companions. And then have a CB and plots to destroy or take the cauldron.
But as it all depended on the cauldron being able to 'reinforce' the army where it is to make it something of a superweapon to be worth all the trouble of getting and keeping it, and it looks like thats not possible. An alternative way might be to have it be a titular title with a levy modifier to make it a standing army of the holder but that wouldnt be as cool as if it literately brought back the dead.
So no worries.

Edit: On RR having posted first. Probably no matter what the religion of the character they would have been in the same communion, trading, marrying, etc with each other so thats probably grounds for leaving it one group until Augustine comes along. For Arthur and his lot, all the stories that we have good copies of are very clear on him and all his lot being christians. But they were also all written by catholic monks or other clergy but still that says that cannon says they were which is probably enough.

 

[RedRooster81]

I remember reading about Diocletian having the druids killed off and their groves leveled. Sounds very Westeros? Anyway, it depends on the geographical extent of the suppression, and what happened once the Romans left. There were a lot of Brythonic speakers outside of direct Roman control, and the Irish had a big influence around the same time. But frankly I don't know. What do you guys think would work best for the mod? I'm assuming that most people went back to the 'Old Ways' after 410, but that the most Christianized part of Britain would be the southeast where you had a centralized government. After Christianity became the state religion, a lot of the tribal leaders in what is now Scotland and Wales who gave homage to Rome would have at least become nominally Christian, but who knows what lasting effect it had?

So any ideas? Arthur was supposed to be a defender of Christianity--he wore the symbol of the Virgin on his shield, carried the cross back and forth across his camp for three days before the Battle of Badon Hill, but he also sought out the Cauldron from Annwn, had a magic sword, and had followers with magical powers. I'd like to keep it ambiguous IMHO, with some zealots for either paganism or Christianity and most people being okay with mixing the two.

 

[SirDraco]

I don't know how historical it is but I liked how Bernard Cornwell had religion in his Arthur trilogy. Some Kingdoms fully followed Christianity, overs fully followed Paganism and a some had a mix. In the mixed kingdoms there was tension between the religions but how bad it got depended on the situation in hand, which could be handed by events. Druids, Merlin being one of them, are there but aren't as powerful as they once were because there was no text from before the Romans came.

 

[Orinsul]

While i agree that its best to leave it vague, as historically it would have [like it was still for the middle ages] a syncratic mix of christian and pagan beliefs and traditions. I've just got to point out that magic swords and fairies dont make something pagan.

Charlemange had a magic sword, Rolland and Olliver had Magic Swords and magic horses too and a couple stories where they traveled to fairy as well, Gawain and the Green Knight which is about the most christian of all the literature to come out of the middle ages features an elf in a starring role. The Greek classical stories were rewritten to take place and in christian europe by turning the heroes into knights and greek gods into elves [Sir Orfeo and the Matter of Italy's Aeneid as prime examples.]. If anything [atleast when talking about the middle ages] Magic Swords and Fairy-treasures make a story christian. Bedes history is a good example too, Saints and Miracles hand in hand with Fairies and magical powers and Kings and battles as at the time all those things were taken for granted as reliable fact. Today we dont think fairies exist so see them as something pagans worshiped but in the early middle ages they were as true as rain or rome, atleast to the english. No matter the 'religion' of the person talking about them. And by the High and later middle ages they were a staple in christian literature throughout the whole of europe owing to the influence of the Matter of Britain on continental literature and werent seen as connected to pagans at all.

 

[richvh]

Any particular reason Cai and his direct vassals are Catholic rather than Insular faith?

Edit: I can confirm that it is presently impossible for an army to get onto or off of Anglesey. Either sea zones and ports need to be added, or the straight between Anglesey and the mainland needs to be made crossable.

Edit 2: Oh, and all the troop positions seem to be in the lower right corner of the bounding box for each cantref, which usually puts them in a neighboring cantref. Makes it very difficult to tell what cantref a particular troop is in.

 

[RedRooster81]

Thanks richvh for the feedback. I have some cleaning up to do it sounds like. Sir Cai's religion was the leftover from an earlier version, when I had trouble getting the game to accept "Insular" as a playable religion. I need to go through the positions for the new provinces and make sure that they make more sense. And I'll fix poor Anglesey. I need to do the sea provinces which should be easy enough. Do you recommend a strait there? Or should invading Anglesey require a sturdy navy?

@SirDraco: I'm a fan of Cornwell, too. I looked at the first book in the Arthur series but haven't finished it yet. But he seems to follow a similar angle as I do as to Britain's situation after the Romans left.

@Orinsul: Thanks for the additional information. In terms of religion, things will be rather diverse, but where I can they will reflect the historical situation in the 400s. I had organized the religion file thus:

- Insular -- Christian but out of communion with Rome. Much of Britain up to the Synod of Whitby. No head of religion, but each Insular ruler will act as patron to the clergy in his own demesne. Focus will be on monasteries over dioceses, though it might be nice to have some respected spiritual leader who surpasses political boundaries. (Is there a better term for this that would fit within ten letters or less?)

- Catholic -- do. but in communion with Rome. Much like vanilla CK2's Catholic faith. There will be events like Augustine of Canterbury to establish Roman supremacy. This may depend on what is going on in Gaul. Rome of course is not in the game, though the Pope may appear as a landless ruler.

- Roman Paganism -- the Greco-Roman tradition, with Jupiter as the chief god, etc. Not many adherents at game start, though some still cling to this faith, with a cult to Mithras continuing to exist in the North and on the continent

- Norse Paganism -- the religion of the Germanic invaders, including the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. The Danes come later.

- Celtic Paganism -- the religion of the 'Old Ways' of the British Isles and formerly of Gaul. Most of Ireland adheres to this faith, but some of the Irish settlers in Great Britain are turning to Christianity.

 

[Orinsul]

Id suggest a straight for Anglesey, given that the gap is small enough for there to be a bridge there today, having a straight would probably be the easiest and expected way to do it.

For a map just of Britain, might the head of the catholic church be better as Canterbury [Or a titular title representing the cheif bishop in briton that can move from Canterbury to Carmarthen or somewhere if Britons are dominant rather than Saxons at the time]. As itd seem to me with the narrow scope that all the interaction with the Church would done through Augustine and his successors so for a mod where the map is focused on Britain it might make sense to take an intermediary approach to representing the church. With the pope being an abstracted off-map thing rather than a represented character.

 

[richvh]

I've never been to Europe, let alone north-west Wales, but given the narrowness of the straight, I think using straight mechanics would work there, and ditto for the Isle of Wight when you get there. You could save the navies for when you add Mann, Ireland, and the Continent.

Right now we're getting Insular heresy events in solidly Insular areas. I'd suggest that when you get around to modding the religion events, having backsliding (to celtic/norse/roman paganism, depending on either area or culture I suppose) for the province events, and perhaps conversion between Catholic and Insular for the chaplain events. You might also consider including Sol Invictus or Mithras worship, perhaps in areas which formerly had a high concentration of legionaries. I believe there's evidence of both faiths being worshiped in Britain, though probably not widely.

 

[SirDraco]

@SirDraco: I'm a fan of Cornwell, too. I looked at the first book in the Arthur series but haven't finished it yet. But he seems to follow a similar angle as I do as to Britain's situation after the Romans left.

The historical notes at the end of each book might be of some interest to you, though I would recommend finishing each book before reading them as I believe the notes do include some major spoilers.

- Insular -- Christian but out of communion with Rome. Much of Britain up to the Synod of Whitby. No head of religion, but each Insular ruler will act as patron to the clergy in his own demesne. Focus will be on monasteries over dioceses, though it might be nice to have some respected spiritual leader who surpasses political boundaries. (Is there a better term for this that would fit within ten letters or less?)

- Catholic -- do. but in communion with Rome. Much like vanilla CK2's Catholic faith. There will be events like Augustine of Canterbury to establish Roman supremacy. This may depend on what is going on in Gaul. Rome of course is not in the game, though the Pope may appear as a landless ruler.

- Roman Paganism -- the Greco-Roman tradition, with Jupiter as the chief god, etc. Not many adherents at game start, though some still cling to this faith, with a cult to Mithras continuing to exist in the North and on the continent

- Norse Paganism -- the religion of the Germanic invaders, including the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. The Danes come later.

- Celtic Paganism -- the religion of the 'Old Ways' of the British Isles and formerly of Gaul. Most of Ireland adheres to this faith, but some of the Irish settlers in Great Britain are turning to Christianity.

If you can, lower the dislike modifier between religions and if possible get rid of the holy war cb and have tension between the old ways and the new managed through events. Also in Briton have a mixture of Christian and Celtic Pagan courtiers/vassals.

 

[duinnin]

In regards to Anglesey, I lean towards making it a true island requiring a navy. My reasoning is the island was primarily raided by sea, whether by Irish or Norse, and an island would seem better to represent its defensible position and make it harder for others to conquer it.

 

[richvh]

But did Suetonius need a proper navy when he assaulted it in 61AD? Irish and Vikings would have been coming from the sea anyways unless they already had bases in north Wales.

 

[Joel M Bridge]

Since The Western half empire still around and since there is still roman cizten stuck on Isle would be able to play britton roman nobiliy, hell maybe even try get in connect with empire, major imperial princess, hell get are men to delcare us Agustus?

 

[Slaxl]

Since The Western half empire still around and since there is still roman cizten stuck on Isle would be able to play britton roman nobiliy, hell maybe even try get in connect with empire, major imperial princess, hell get are men to delcare us Agustus?

I'm not sure the Western Empire was still around, in fact checking the files the game starts in 495ad, so by any metric you want to use for dating the Roman Empire the western half had definitely ceased to be by 495ad. It is true, however, to say that some of the inhabitants of Britain were "Roman". Especially in the south east I believe, Romanisation was quite thorough. They weren't called Romano-British for nought.

So no, can't reconnect with the Western Empire as it is no longer around. The final Western Emperor, Romulus Augustus, surrendered his crown in 476, to Odoacer, I believe, so the only Empire you can 'connect' with is the Eastern one, and the only Imperial Princesses are Byzantine. However what I like about this mod is it's focus on one area so we don't have to worry about Rome. The only thing to worry about is German invaders in the east and Pictish invaders to the north.

 

[Arko]

just loaded the game to see how it shapes, i really the scale used for provinces.

the map is really beautiful. I just find a bit odd to have the Alps just as high as... Irish hills. A few lakes in France a weird too (sea level lakes never look good IMHO)
On topology, maybe it needs to be a bit smoother in a general manner.

 

[duinnin]

The topology could use some work. It was my first time attempting it! You're welcome to tweak or redo it. I'm sure Red would love the help.

 

[Woody Man]

I'm not sure the Western Empire was still around, in fact checking the files the game starts in 495ad, so by any metric you want to use for dating the Roman Empire the western half had definitely ceased to be by 495ad. It is true, however, to say that some of the inhabitants of Britain were "Roman". Especially in the south east I believe, Romanisation was quite thorough. They weren't called Romano-British for nought.

So no, can't reconnect with the Western Empire as it is no longer around. The final Western Emperor, Romulus Augustus, surrendered his crown in 476, to Odoacer, I believe, so the only Empire you can 'connect' with is the Eastern one, and the only Imperial Princesses are Byzantine. However what I like about this mod is it's focus on one area so we don't have to worry about Rome. The only thing to worry about is German invaders in the east and Pictish invaders to the north.

Indeed, add in the fact that Roman legions or "proper" administration hasn't been seen for over a generation in Britain, they've pretty much been lost to the Roman world. Procopius wrote some histories just a few decades later and his knowledge of Britain was very spotty.

 

[Arko]

The topology could use some work. It was my first time attempting it! You're welcome to tweak or redo it. I'm sure Red would love the help.

I know, and it is already a damn good work duinnin^^

 

[greyborea]

I am really excited about this one

 

[Slaxl]

Just completed my first game, becoming lord and master of all Welsh lands, and there isn't a lot to report that hasn't already been said. The inability to get troops to Anglesey was a nuisance when dealing with revolts, lots of baronies aren't named, some of the positions are a bit out, and while insular seems to be the only religion it's also a heretical religion, so I had the strange incidence of being a heretic whilst following the same faith, and heretical provinces weren't easy to find, which led to more revolts, unfortunately in Anglesey.

All in all for a v0.02 it's very playable. Is there anything you could do with a helping hand with?