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frankatank109

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The Commune of Rome
783px-SPQR.svg.png

The Commune of Rome was a republic that rose up in Rome in the mid 12th century. They succeeded in kicking the Pope out of Rome (with the aid of the HRE) and ruled it for several years before it lost the HRE's support, and thus it's existence. But what if it hadn't. In answering that question this mod does more than simply rectify the historical error of not including the Commune (there are rather a lot of errors like that in Italy, but that is a problem for another day). I, together with FanoI, have created an alternate route to the Roman Empire, but along a historical path. Features of the mod.

The Commune of Rome owns Roma and has a bookmark.
You now have the opportunity to bring Roman culture back to the uncivilized heathens of Europe
Re-create the Empire as it should have been, a Republic
Roman culture now has it's own retinue, unique building, and many other new decisions/events
The Roman Republic is formable
The Western Roman Empire is formable
The Roman empire is now much harder to form, is very different as a republic
Complex interaction between the HRE, the ERE, and the WRE
The Praetorian Guard, and several formable legions as mercenary units.
Complex interaction between the WRE, the Pope, and the rest of the Catholic world
Many new events, decisions, and traits

We someday plan to attempt to implement the unique succession/leadership mechanic for Volantis used in the AGoT mod (with knuckey's permission, of course).
Credits go to me and FanoI for creating it, Dioadochi Kings, Elder Kings, Lux Invicta, and AnaxXiphos‎ for anything graphical, and this thread for inspiring the mod. We hope to have a release very soon (not all the above features will be included in the first release).

Download Link- The Commune of Rome
 
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Ballisticwaffle

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This is fantastic. I was kinda sad that Age of Mythology came out today on steam, but now i have another thing to look forward to. Are the Praetorian Guards going to be available no matter who you are, or do you have to reform the Republic/WRE first?
 

frankatank109

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This is fantastic. I was kinda sad that Age of Mythology came out today on steam, but now i have another thing to look forward to. Are the Praetorian Guards going to be available no matter who you are, or do you have to reform the Republic/WRE first?
You've got to be the WRE to create the Praetorian Guard. Thanks for all the praise!
 

fanoI

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I am happy that you all are interested ;)

This period of 50 years could seems trivial but in reality is probably a fixed point in time (I have seen too much Doctor Who? Maybe :eek:hmy:) :

  1. Obviously we have the Roman Republic itself that if he had more success would have united Italy in the high middle ages... and maybe Europe (well you could try do this at least)
  2. Frederick Barbarossa and saying this could be sufficient (what if he had success becoming the effective King of Germany, Italy, Sicily and Jerusalem?)
  3. The Start of the Investiture Conflict (what if Frederick had won it? And effectively the Pope had become his vassal?)
  4. The Lombard League and the end of the no more only formal independence of Italy from HRE (What if he won? Effectively submitting them without recognizing their independence that it is base of the fact that HRE become not Holy, neither Roman, neither an Empire?)

Only the first point would be present in this mod but we having so much ideas really that seems we could work to this forever (and in my mind it was the start of something else... go figure ;)), if you have suggestions obviously we are happy to hear them.

I add a note regarding the succession law of the Roman Republic, the Volantis elective system could be a base but obviously the succession law of Rome is in reality different for one in Volantis 3 guys are elected (Volantis is a Triumvirate) and in our case only one ruler shall be elected (but this is not a great difference), they use parties as devices to select the candidates (the Roman Senate had parties? In some sense probably if you think of group of interests... lobbies: the merchants, the soldiers, the edili and in our case probably the Papalines) for sure one need to be a Senator to vote (but not all Senator could be elected you know more of this in the future ;)), I'd like the concept that using laws one could seize slowly the Republic making it a de facto Monarchy (but no we not see ever an Emperor of Rome wear a crown... Byzantium is not the Roman Empire... at least not for the scope of this mod, is seen as decadent at least ;)).

But the first version for now will use the Patrician Succession law, in any case the Patricians have sense for Rome as they were the name that the important families used for them... indeed I could say that to be a Senator you SHOULD be a Patrician first but the Republican GUI will go mad if I try to create 50 Patricians (oh well ourselves for sure having to fill 100 of history files... to create by null 50 names of Patrician families, I had difficulty to found 5 of them go figure :rofl:) and effectively they do commerce in slaves that maybe they used in the Colosseum for the Circus, other maybe in spices or textures and so on...

Maybe in the future but only if you make good boys he could show some images to you, but only if you are good :rofl:
 

.Me

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I have no words to express how happy I am to read this topic. Seriously, if you can (and I am convinced) to make this mod, I bow down at your feet in total gratitude. For the factions within the Res Publica I have a suggestion: why not Optimates and Populares? The Senatorial and patrician families of Rome continued to distinguish itself in these two parties even during the Middle Ages.
 

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Thank you, this will be wonderful! Please make sure to make compatability patch for HIP if you can!
 

CiderMuffin

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Oh man and I just started my building up the Roman Republic as Venice campaign...this sounds way cooler. Question, would you consider making an EU4 upgrade for this? If you need someone to do it all I've been dabbling in modding and wouldn't mind giving it a try if it's a group made mod.

Also how about this, if you have enough money you can sponsor a Roman Renaissance for a set amount of time, the more money you put in it the more technology bonuses you get as well as a higher chance of counties converting to Roman culture.

Also add buildings like aqueducts, roads and restore Roman landmarks as ways of rebuilding the empire and addition province bonuses.
 
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fanoI

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@Jokolytic

The only changed file is religious_decision.txt and landed_titles.txt (but the titles of Rome could go in another file if we want) so theoretically could work already with a little effort the only my preoccupation is the map used for HIP if it is changed too much...

So it should work good if not we let's see what to do in the future, note that the first version will be an alpha...

@.Me
Yes two parties could be called Optimates and Populares an other could be have something to do with the Pope not in the sense that f they win the Pope become the ruler but they favor the interest of the church most (tax exemption for priests, charity, advancement of culture, creation of hospitals and monasteries and so on) in the end the Pope ruled Rome for Centuries in the good and the bad could have sense that someone is nostalgic of the Republic of Saint Peter (yes the Papal State were a a Republic too once upon a time was the Senate to elect the Pope!).
Could have sense to have a fourth party? Or three continues to be the perfect number?

Oh man and I just started my building up the Roman Republic as Venice campaign...this sounds way cooler. Question, would you consider making an EU4 upgrade for this? If you need someone to do it all I've been dabbling in modding and wouldn't mind giving it a try if it's a group made mod.
I cannot talk for Frankatank109, but for me EU4 is not really fun after having played to CK2, EU3 not fun anymore, EU4 punish you too much if you conquer but if you don't do this what remains? Nothing your character itself is flat has no real interaction with others (he marries with anyone apparently and presses claims in illogical way) the simple concept of Personal Unions has no sense, practically all flavor will be lost or have to be emulated in strange ways.
A lot people says that with CK2 you could do only the Feudal model and so in not adapt to the Modern Age or Ancient Ages but here I've seen incredible mods that show that this is not true (as Diodochy Kings that went in the past without problem and Crisis of The Confederation that will boldly go in the future were no modder is gone before), the colonization could be emulated as AGOT and Middle Earth Project did... in the end the only problem of CK2 to model all the world is technological as any simulated IA requires resources... but I hope they will find a way to optimize it in the future.
(for example on undeveloped countries barons could not be needed and a character could have a bigger demesne in desert lands).

Also how about this, if you have enough money you can sponsor a Roman Renaissance for a set amount of time, the more money you put in it the more technology bonuses you get as well as a higher chance of counties converting to Roman culture.
Interesting suggestion, thanks!

Also add buildings like aqueducts, roads and restore Roman landmarks as ways of rebuilding the empire and addition province bonuses.
You have forgotten the more important one, the acknowledged symbol of the Roman Empire :eek:hmy:
For that we have tough something of special but yes the roads, aqueducts, bathing houses and so on could be made as special building in the future... a road could make your troops move more faster and add value to the province itself too (as the commerce is more simple having a road to do).
 
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Super-Soviet

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Seriously, no Opimates and Populares. This is the Middle Age city of Rome - inhabited by Medieval Romans. The class system that gave meaning to those terms is long dead. Historical Commune of Rome please!
 

fanoI

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If you have a more historical source let me know, Wikipedia doesn't say much apart from this paragraph:

In 1144, the Commune of Rome attempted to establish a government modeled on the old Roman republic in opposition to the temporal power of the higher nobles and the pope. This included setting up a senate along the lines of the ancient one. The revolutionaries divided Rome into fourteen regions, each electing four senators for a total of 56 (though one source,[which?] often repeated, gives a total of 50). These senators, the first real senators since the 7th century, elected as their leader, Giordano Pierleoni, son of the Roman consul Pier Leoni, with the title patrician, because consul was also a deprecated noble styling.[citation needed]

This renovated form of government was constantly embattled. By the end of the 12th century, it had undergone a radical transformation, with the reduction of the number of senators to a single one - Summus Senator - being thereafter the title of the head of the civil government of Rome. (For example, in modern terms, this is comparable to the reduction of a board of commissioners to a single commissioner, such as the political head of the police department of New York City.) Between 1191 and 1193, this was a certain Benedetto called Carus homo or carissimo.
How this 56 (or 50?) Senators were divided in factions is not written simply why probably no-one know it, by the way Optimates (Conservative party) and Popolures (Progressive Party) seems the more natural division in which any political body divides, right?
If we want we could use more neutral names for these factions / parties but I fear we lose immersion...

The only concession that I coul do to the fact that we are in the Middle Ages and not in the Ancient Roman Past is the third faction that has something to do with the Pope, the dream of the Roman Republic was obviously to delete the Middle Ages, yes Pier Leoni didn't talked Latin (oh well Vulgar Latin or circa Italian are not so different really) and didn't, probably, wear red togas but in his mind and that of the other Senators the Middle Ages was as never happened, if they had had won their revolution and reformed the Empire they would have continued the Numerals for the last Emperor of West calling the Middle Ages "Interregnum" or adding fake Emperors to fill the void probably :rofl:

P.S: After the rise of The Commune of Rome the Senate continued to exists and effectively ruled Rome when the Pope returned, again when Napoleon reformed the Roman Empire (he called it "Empire of The French" because we was humble probably but it was the Empire in all effect having a Senate in Paris) and he forced the Pope to leave the city forming the "III Roman Republic" the Senate ruled that Republic again in the end when the Pope returned in Rome the Senate continued to have his role and continue to have to this in the Italian Republic as uninterrupted institution of more that 2000 years (oh well now they are trying to reform it leaving it without any political power but not to abolish it... why we, Italians, will remember alway s that a time we were the Roman Empire... what we could know that one day the Senate of Rome would be the head of a Galactic Empire* ?)

* http://www.doctorwhochronology.com/homepageold/drwhoold/farfuture.htm (12000 AD!)
 

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Thank you so much! I have been waiting for this since release, bring on Giordano Pierleoni!
 

frankatank109

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I think the current plan is for three parties, Optimates, Populaires, and some sort of Papal party (that last one is going to be special). I'm working on the revamp of Roman culture as we speak, they're going to have several cultural buildings, most of them for cities. I'm pretty sure that it'll be compatible with HIP, but I'll check.

Oh man and I just started my building up the Roman Republic as Venice campaign...this sounds way cooler. Question, would you consider making an EU4 upgrade for this? If you need someone to do it all I've been dabbling in modding and wouldn't mind giving it a try if it's a group made mod.

Also how about this, if you have enough money you can sponsor a Roman Renaissance for a set amount of time, the more money you put in it the more technology bonuses you get as well as a higher chance of counties converting to Roman culture.

Also add buildings like aqueducts, roads and restore Roman landmarks as ways of rebuilding the empire and addition province bonuses.
What exactly do you mean by an EU4 upgrade? Just providing unique NI's and a few events or actually converting the whole mod to EU4 so you can start as the Commune in 1444? I have a fair amount of experience modding EU4, however I have actually no spare time right now, but I might do it someday. However if, when we release, you want to make one then you're welcome to.
 

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If you have a more historical source let me know, Wikipedia doesn't say much apart from this paragraph:

How this 56 (or 50?) Senators were divided in factions is not written simply why probably no-one know it, by the way Optimates (Conservative party) and Popolures (Progressive Party) seems the more natural division in which any political body divides, right?
If we want we could use more neutral names for these factions / parties but I fear we lose immersion...
I found a German source that lists the following families (major ones in bold) as important for that time frame:

Crescenti, Frangipani, Pierleoni, Normanni, Corsi, Sassi, Latroni, Maximi, Tusculi, Colonna, Franchi, Saraceni, Astaldi, Senebaldi, Duranti, Scotti, Ursini; Buccapecora, Curtabraca, Bulgamini, Boboni, Berardi, Bonfilioli, Boneschi, Berizo; Papazurri, Muti, Barunzii, Romani, Tebaldi, Stefani, Tiniosi, Franculini, Brazuti.

It also states that nearly half of the senators were civilians of lesser families (one of the senators was a painter)

Source: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/2408/211

I would suggest three factions:
pro Kaiser -> Frangipani
pro pope -> Normanni, Corsi
pro republic -> Pierleoni, Crescenti

The first two existed well before the commune was founded and constisted of lesser nobility and patricians that either supported the(ir) pope (and his anti-king) or the Kaiser (and his anti-pope).
The last one came to power with the commune and tried to reestablish the Roman Republic.

So you could use the Triarch system of AGoT or the normal republic system and give the families traits which affect their relation to the pope, the HRE, and to each other and which enable them different decisions they could make (like only a pro Kaiser "Doge" could swear fealty to the HRE; the senate wanted to crown King Konrad as Emperor after all...).
 

frankatank109

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I found a German source that lists the following families (major ones in bold) as important for that time frame:

Crescenti, Frangipani, Pierleoni, Normanni, Corsi, Sassi, Latroni, Maximi, Tusculi, Colonna, Franchi, Saraceni, Astaldi, Senebaldi, Duranti, Scotti, Ursini; Buccapecora, Curtabraca, Bulgamini, Boboni, Berardi, Bonfilioli, Boneschi, Berizo; Papazurri, Muti, Barunzii, Romani, Tebaldi, Stefani, Tiniosi, Franculini, Brazuti.

It also states that nearly half of the senators were civilians of lesser families (one of the senators was a painter)

Source: http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/2408/211

I would suggest three factions:
pro Kaiser -> Frangipani
pro pope -> Normanni, Corsi
pro republic -> Pierleoni, Crescenti

The first two existed well before the commune was founded and constisted of lesser nobility and patricians that either supported the(ir) pope (and his anti-king) or the Kaiser (and his anti-pope).
The last one came to power with the commune and tried to reestablish the Roman Republic.

So you could use the Triarch system of AGoT or the normal republic system and give the families traits which affect their relation to the pope, the HRE, and to each other and which enable them different decisions they could make (like only a pro Kaiser "Doge" could swear fealty to the HRE; the senate wanted to crown King Konrad as Emperor after all...).
This is useful information, and I'm going to make use of the traits until we implement the system of two Consuls (based on the Triarch system, and the pro-kaiser/pope/republic traits will still exist, just in a lesser function). However we're going to force the Commune to be vassalised by the HRE regardless, as they did swear allegiance to the emperor after they defeated the Pope.
 

fanoI

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I found a German source that lists the following families (major ones in bold) as important for that time frame:

Crescenti, Frangipani, Pierleoni, Normanni, Corsi, Sassi, Latroni, Maximi, Tusculi, Colonna, Franchi, Saraceni, Astaldi, Senebaldi, Duranti, Scotti, Ursini; Buccapecora, Curtabraca, Bulgamini, Boboni, Berardi, Bonfilioli, Boneschi, Berizo; Papazurri, Muti, Barunzii, Romani, Tebaldi, Stefani, Tiniosi, Franculini, Brazuti.
Thanks for this list of surnames it is really precious for me! I've to try the CK2 Scenario Editor to see he could help me to to add all of them as characters automatically, the fact is that probably the should be all Patricians to make the thing correct (so they would be playable if landless too), I've to find a way to add a scrollbar in the "Republic " GUI ;)

It also states that nearly half of the senators were civilians of lesser families (one of the senators was a painter)
OK, so in game terms they were courtiers, right? Well it could work in this the head of this 30 families (the Patricians) could be Senators by right the other 20 seats are elective (that is when a seat is empty a random courtier is automatically created)...

Thanks now too much tired to try to translate from Deutsch to English and in Italian, interesting source by the way there is not an English version, too?
Or other free encyclopedia online free? Wiki is a little carent in this aspect...

I would suggest three factions:
pro Kaiser -> Frangipani
pro pope -> Normanni, Corsi
pro republic -> Pierleoni, Crescenti

The first two existed well before the commune was founded and constisted of lesser nobility and patricians that either supported the(ir) pope (and his anti-king) or the Kaiser (and his anti-pope).
Yes this division in factions probably speaks more middle ages there is only a problem... the Kaiser yes they could be friends in the start but are you sure that the Holy Roman Empire could exists really side-by-side with the Western Roman Empire :eek:hmy:?
I want to see if I can make the election system to accept the rise and fall of parties, I fear the Paradox scriping language is too limited to support this but let see what we could in the future maybe is more easy that I think...
(in the starting scenario they were the supporters of the vassalization to HRE)
The pro-Pope faction indeed could make more sense for all the game frame (as the Pope always exists) to decide what his their "political agenda" for sure they didn't want the return of the Papal States as they wanted to control the Pope too and he is more easy to control now that he is weak... I don't know maybe the head of this faction should be the right hand of the Pope and if he like it a much the de-facto Pope (as if he was his vassal? So he could suggest excommunication and so on on?)... one could consider this faction similar to the Italian party "Democrazia Cristiana" but in 30 years that I'm on Earth I've never understood what was their Politic (well maybe corruption and throw moneys out of the windows could be called a "politic" too :rofl:)

The last one came to power with the commune and tried to reestablish the Roman Republic.
A being chosen as the Head of State Pierleoni is the leader of this faction in the starting scenario...

So you could use the Triarch system of AGoT or the normal republic system and give the families traits which affect their relation to the pope, the HRE, and to each other and which enable them different decisions they could make (like only a pro Kaiser "Doge" could swear fealty to the HRE; the senate wanted to crown King Konrad as Emperor after all...).
Well for the fact that the head of the factions will be playable sure
but they will not be co-ruler as a Triarch is (more that the mod show: engine limitation) nevertheless they could try to influence the Head of State to take some decisions maybe, the concept could have sense for a Roman Republic that in the future become and Empire and then a Triumvirate very unlikely that a Republic could become this (mmh I'm under the impression that is happened... nahhh I not rembember well :confused: )