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Velorian

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My changes were basically one of the terraform mods with the durations significantly extended. It's not much of a finished product at all. I intended to try balancing it out when starting some terraforming in the late game but I kept restarting, so..
 

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What always confused me about the silver/gold stars on the extended levels mod is that it seems like a gold star ought to represent 5 levels- So levels 1-4 are counted in silver stars, level 5 is a gold star, level 6 is a gold star and a silver star, etc.

At a glance I kept interpreting level 7 leaders as level 10, it just seems natural that a gold star be "worth" five levels
 

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What always confused me about the silver/gold stars on the extended levels mod is that it seems like a gold star ought to represent 5 levels- So levels 1-4 are counted in silver stars, level 5 is a gold star, level 6 is a gold star and a silver star, etc.

At a glance I kept interpreting level 7 leaders as level 10, it just seems natural that a gold star be "worth" five levels
We could change it to Level 7 there if it became a problem.

Edit: @Velorian I did change the rate of exp gain for admirals so may the reason he leveled so fast. I will lower the exp gain. I did the same thing for generals let me know if that is a problem. I though that generals and admirals leveled to slowly. I may have made a mistake on the admiral.
 
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calake

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Extended colonization times definitely seems to fit with the design of the mod so far. It's taking me quite a bit longer to refine my ideas than I initially thought. Hold on tight... I even have diagrams. :p

I will have something up by the end of the night, hopefully while you're still around to give feedback.
 
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calake

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Well here it is; my current design on the colonization and terraforming game.

Habitable Worlds:
- Continental centric system.
- Five tiers of habitability (Six including Asteroid Bases and Tomb Worlds).
- More static habitability (more difficult to obtain bonuses).
- Slower rate of colonization.
- Colony ships consume pops.
- Colony pops can die. Habitability affects survivability.
- Colonies can be lost: Pop reaches zero.
- Distance affects habitability (amount undecided). Improved with techs.

Planet Bonuses:
- Planets offer specialised bonuses.
- Planet choice is now a strategic decision.
- Continental species are least specialized but have more colonization options.
- Species adapted to extreme environments have fewer innate colonization options, but greater access to late game non-habitable to habitable terraforming options, as well as innate research and resource advantages.

Terraforming:
- More terraforming options.
- Longer, more expensive terraforming.
- Arid planets have access to most common non-habitable planet terraforming optons.
- Arctic and Ocean planets have access to less common non-habitable planet terraforming options, but greater flexibility (two step Ocean->Arctic terraforming).
- Continental planets have worst access to terraforming options, but have the most options with lower level techs.

Asteroid bases:
- Mid to late game access to asteroid bases for small, utilitarian colonies. Useful for border expansion, military bases, and bonus mineral output.
- Less flexible than other colonizing options.
- Only obtainable via terraforming.
- Only habitable with droids.

Tomb worlds:
- Similar to above, only larger, and existing in small quantity pre-terraforming.

Gaia world terrforming:
- to-be-done

HabitableWorlds.png
PlanetBonuses.png
Terraforming.png
AstroidBases.png

TombWorlds.png

Thoughts, feedback, criticism welcome.
 
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Velorian

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Those are some awesome ideas! Much of it resembles some of the loose thoughts I had about how things ought to be.

Incidentally, I'm currently playing with a mod that removes pops when you establish colonies and I rather like it.

I'll give some thought/feedback about it later, overall it looks excellent.
One thing that springs to mind now is the distance-related habitability. I assume this malus goes away once a planetary administration has been made? I'm not sure how to implement it though, perhaps make the game read the distance and create a flag. One problem otherwise is that I think the distance becomes zero the moment the first pop is on the scene.

Also it's nice that the asteroids need to be terraformed as this avoids the Galaxy Map being spammed with 0% habitability messages.

Do Tomb worlds go directly to Continental?

Oh, and everything you want to create of that content would be great I think.
 
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calake

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Those are some awesome ideas! Much of it resembles some of the loose thoughts I had about how things ought to be.

Incidentally, I'm currently playing with a mod that removes pops when you establish colonies and I rather like it.

I'll give some thought/feedback about it later, overall it looks excellent.
One thing that springs to mind now is the distance-related habitability. I assume this malus goes away once a planetary administration has been made? I'm not sure how to implement it though, perhaps make the game read the distance and create a flag. One problem otherwise is that I think the distance becomes zero the moment the first pop is on the scene.

Also it's nice that the asteroids need to be terraformed as this avoids the Galaxy Map being spammed with 0% habitability messages.

Do Tomb worlds go directly to Continental?

To be clear, these are just ideas I'm putting out there, I haven't actually done any of the work yet lol. Just in case there was a confusion.

I'm glad you like them. I was hoping we could debate a few design issues for a while and then I could draft up the first iteration and begin testing.

Tomb worlds will stay tomb world I believe. I see them as beyond recovery, too many toxic materials to deal with. Could potentially add a tech that can terraform to both frozen and barren, joining to the ends of the current system. Straight to continental would be unbalanced I think.

As for asteroid bases, that was my thought exactly. ATM tomb world is already colonizable I believe, so this doesn't actually add any new colonizable planet types.

The intention of distance habitability is make distant development a risk to take, the pay off being expanding your borders, and to encourage some late game expansion, rather than everything being grabbed up early -> mid game and then dynamic shifting to upward growth. We could add extremely expensive unique buildings that add secondary capitols, meaning that distance will calculate to the shortest possible distance, from either the primary capitol or secondary capitols.

Reading that back I wonder if that makes any sense to you.

edit:

Alternatively I could make tomb -> continental a 'rare', very expensive, late game tech. There probably aren't enough toxic and tomb worlds to break balance too much.
 
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Velorian

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You are right about Tomb worlds, I just don't like the idea of any planets being utterly beyond recovery, and it does say "minimal life signs". It does sound nice to first terraform them to frozen/barren though, it's sort of a "this world is so screwed up, we'd be better off starting over".

I also like the mod which allows war goals to turn worlds into new Tomb worlds, even if I think that should be a pretty rare occurrence. Still it's nice to be able to clean up again if you are willing to invest time and resources into it. It could be a Tier 3 technology thing.

On second thought, you might have colonized and invested into that tomb world, all your buildings and pops die that way. Maybe just make the time and resources required to be equal to what it would have been if it had to go to barren/frozen and the next step combined. Then it could link to Ocean/Arctic/Arid.
 

calake

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BTW if you want to make your own diagrams I have quite a lot of pre-cropped planet PNGs now. If you want to take your own pics press CTRL + F9 to hide UI and F12 to take screenshot.

The problem is I had to think of ways to balance Continental to not be overpowered with the new centric design. I don't think it would be, because as described there are new reasons to choose extreme environments for specialization.

Forgive my spelling, it's a mixture of English and American English because spell check confuses me.
 

Velorian

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The problem is I had to think of ways to balance Continental to not be overpowered with the new centric design. I don't think it would be, because as described there are new reasons to choose extreme environments for specialization.

Forgive my spelling, it's a mixture of English and American English because spell check confuses me.
I hadn't noticed the spelling I use a mixture myself.. ;)

If we feel Continental is overpowered we could reduce the odds of them showing up in the galaxy at the start, making them more valuable and rare, then the races originating on them would have more difficulty finding perfect planets.
 
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I hadn't noticed the spelling I use a mixture myself.. ;)

If we feel Continental is overpowered we could reduce the odds of them showing up in the galaxy at the start, making them more valuable and rare, then the races originating on them would have more difficulty finding perfect planets.

That's a good point I never thought of.

I would like to hear from @hyme first before we get too deep into discussing minutia.

I think it might be important to decide which of the galaxy (star number ) options we are going to balance around.

My choice would be Elliptical - 2.5k

I also think we should change diplomacy AI value energy credits slightly higher, this way it will function better as a proper currency for trading, and Arctic planets will be better balanced against ocean and arid who have benefit from extra food, and minerals respectively, both of which affect rate of growth.
 
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Well here it is; my current design on the colonization and terraforming game.

Habitable Worlds:
- Continental centric system.
- Five tiers of habitability (Six including Asteroid Bases and Tomb Worlds).
- More static habitability (more difficult to obtain bonuses).
- Slower rate of colonization.
- Colony ships consume pops.
- Colony pops can die. Habitability affects survivability.
- Colonies can be lost: Pop reaches zero.
- Distance affects habitability (amount undecided). Improved with techs.

Planet Bonuses:
- Planets offer specialised bonuses.
- Planet choice is now a strategic decision.
- Continental species are least specialized but have more colonization options.
- Species adapted to extreme environments have fewer innate colonization options, but greater access to late game non-habitable to habitable terraforming options, as well as innate research and resource advantages.

Terraforming:
- More terraforming options.
- Longer, more expensive terraforming.
- Arid planets have access to most common non-habitable planet terraforming optons.
- Arctic and Ocean planets have access to less common non-habitable planet terraforming options, but greater flexibility (two step Ocean->Arctic terraforming).
- Continental planets have worst access to terraforming options, but have the most options with lower level techs.

Asteroid bases:
- Mid to late game access to asteroid bases for small, utilitarian colonies. Useful for border expansion, military bases, and bonus mineral output.
- Less flexible than other colonizing options.
- Only obtainable via terraforming.
- Only habitable with droids.

Tomb worlds:
- Similar to above, only larger, and existing in small quantity pre-terraforming.

Gaia world terrforming:
- to-be-done


Thoughts, feedback, criticism welcome.
First of I like most of the ideas; however there is a few things I don't like.

1. I don't think we should be able to terraform Gaseous planets.
2. I think that toxic worlds should terraform into molten, barren and frozen.
3. Molten should be able to terraform into arid and tundra.
4. Barren should be able to terraform into Desert and Tropical.
5. Tomb world should be able to terraform into arid, Ocean, and Arctic.
6. Asteroid Base should have 40% habitability, but with high(15 to 25?) ethics divergence.
7. Asteroid Base only building that adds habitability (10 to 15maybe), but also adds 10 to 15 ethic divergence.
8. Asteroid base should be low level tech.
9. Arctic and Tundra should produce more minerals. Desert and Arid should produce more energy.

I having idea I would like tell you guys about, but I am going to bed and will tell you guys on Friday or Saturday
 
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First of I like most of the ideas; however there is a few things I don't like.

1. I don't think we should be able to terraform Gaseous planets.
2. I think that toxic worlds should terraform into molten, barren and frozen.
3. Molten should be able to terraform into arid and tundra.
4. Barren should be able to terraform into Desert and Tropical.
5. Tomb world should be able to terraform into arid, Ocean, and Arctic.
6. Asteroid Base should have 40% habitability, but with high(15 to 25?) ethics divergence.
7. Asteroid Base only building that adds habitability (10 to 15maybe), but also adds 10 to 15 ethic divergence.
8. Asteroid base should be low level tech.
9. Arctic and Tundra should produce more minerals. Desert and Arid should produce more energy.

I having idea I would like tell you guys about, but I am going to bed and will tell you guys on Friday or Saturday

Awesome. Thanks for the detailed feedback, this is exactly what I wanted.

I'm having trouble getting behind almost all of these points except 8, and definitely 9 which I was already considering. I'll explain why tomorrow, and also I have a few ideas for what might be palatable compromises, specifically for points 5, 6, 7, 9.

Ideally we can arrive at a solution that can we all agree on, if not in whole, at least to a satisfactory degree.

I think a good starting point is getting Asteroid bases working. Since it is new it won't radically change the balance of things, and so will make for a good testing ground.
 
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I will continue to edit this post, so keep an eye on this space.

1. I don't think we should be able to terraform Gaseous planets.
The reason I included this was to balance Ocean and Arctic against Arid worlds. Frozen planets are already less frequent than Barren worlds so I needed to balance it some how. Most gas planets are theorized to have a solid core, admittedly extremely dense, it's chemical constitution being largely dependent on size, temperature, pressure etc. At the centre of Jupiter, for example, there is solid rock/ice core, surrounded by metallic (conductive) liquid hydrogen, liquid hydrogen, gaseous hydrogen, and other gases, including small quantities of traces of carbon, ethane, hydrogen sulfide, neon, oxygen, phosphine, and sulfur. I read somewhere (I will post if I find it) that if you could apply enough force you could separate the core from the gaseous exterior.

I could balance this by adding a small chance of failure, and potentially some risk, to the terraforming process. If at all possible I could exclude certain Gaseous planet types from the terraformable type, and do some research to find out which.

Molten-Arid terraforming could be less risky, but take longer, since you wouldn't have to do something quite so radical as knock the core out of giant ball of liquid metals and gasses lol.

I've also read before that you could theoretically terraform a "barren planet" like mars by making machines that could extract the large quantities of surface iron, turn it into steel, and reproduce itself. The idea being that the process of smelting iron would produce huge quantities of pollution that would over time thicken the atmosphere and change the climate. This may only make sense for planets specifically like Mars which are pretty much covered in what is basically rust. Unrelated but cool none-the-less. In game the idea is that you basically collect the atmosphere gasses else where and deposit them on the planet.

I hope I can find some of these sources so I don't just look like a bumbling idiot.
2. I think that toxic worlds should terraform into molten, barren and frozen.
Toxic -> Barren makes sense, Frozen and Molten on the other hand I'm not sure. In it's current form there would be no utility to this either, since Barren is more useful that molten. The surface beneath Venus's extremely thick carbon atmosphere is most certainly dry and rocky; expelling gasses from this atmosphere might leave you with a barren planet. I can't imagine there would be enough water, if anyway, to form a frozen planet.

Molten -> Toxic on the other hand might make sense.
3. Molten should be able to terraform into arid and tundra.
Presumably if you was to cool the planet, by moving slightly further in orbit from the sun, the cooling process would likely deposit a very thick atmosphere, hence toxic. You certainly wouldn't be able to add solid or liquid water to the planet before it had cooled, which would be required by both Tundra and Arid planets which have small amounts of water, and for this reason it would be in-fact a two step process.

4. Barren should be able to terraform into Desert and Tropical.

Barren -> Desert maybe. I see Desert as slightly more precipitous than Arid, which is extremely dry and rocky, and so I designed it the way I did. You could argue that they switch places honestly, the distinction is fairly minor. However Barren -> Desert would seem to disrupt the balanced design i'm trying to obtain.

Barren -> Tropical, would require adding an ocean, as well as forests and jungles, and a much thicker atmosphere. It seems like too radical a change.

5. Tomb world should be able to terraform into arid, Ocean, and Arctic.
This would be balanced, but what would the reasoning behind this be?

6. Asteroid Base should have 40% habitability, but with high(15 to 25?) ethics divergence.
On second thought I can get behind this, but I think it should start lower, and require a special set of buildings. I believe it is possible to have a unique building for asteroid bases only, but I'm not entirely sure. It's something we'll have to experiment with.

7. Asteroid Base only building that adds habitability (10 to 15maybe), but also adds 10 to 15 ethic divergence.
If we can add a new chain of buildings that spawn straight out of the colony ship specifically for asteroid bases, then we can start with habitability extremely low, making them risky business for races that refuse to use AI. The ideal scenario being that you start the colony off with Droids but have the option to invite organic life later when the environment has been engineered for them.

I would also like it if this building chain had branches so you could specialise your asteroid base:
-Refuelling hub = +repair speed +border projection.
-Trading hub = -minerals +habitability
-Mining hub = -habitability +minerals
-Military hub = ++planetary defense ++orbital station damage

8. Asteroid base should be low level tech.
Yeah I agree, but it should be difficult without further specialized techs.

9. Arctic and Tundra should produce more minerals. Desert and Arid should produce more energy.

Honestly this is perfectly fine with me. On Earth arctic regions more consistently contain oil fields than desert regions, so I picked it the way I did.

Feedback and criticism is always welcome.
 
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- More static habitability (more difficult to obtain bonuses).
I'm unsure what you mean, less techs that give it? Less traits? Reduced effect?

- Colony pops can die. Habitability affects survivability.
- Colonies can be lost: Pop reaches zero.
I assume random events? I guess the planetary administration deactivates the event.

I think the largest chance for failure should be in the period before the first pop even gets established. I don't remember how long that period is right now, but I was thinking that period might be 8-10 years.

Although I think many people would be annoyed if there weren't player input and it simply failed.
First of I like most of the ideas; however there is a few things I don't like.

1. I don't think we should be able to terraform Gaseous planets.
2. I think that toxic worlds should terraform into molten, barren and frozen.
3. Molten should be able to terraform into arid and tundra.
4. Barren should be able to terraform into Desert and Tropical.
5. Tomb world should be able to terraform into arid, Ocean, and Arctic.
6. Asteroid Base should have 40% habitability, but with high(15 to 25?) ethics divergence.
7. Asteroid Base only building that adds habitability (10 to 15maybe), but also adds 10 to 15 ethic divergence.
8. Asteroid base should be low level tech.
9. Arctic and Tundra should produce more minerals. Desert and Arid should produce more energy.

I having idea I would like tell you guys about, but I am going to bed and will tell you guys on Friday or Saturday
1) About the Gaseous planets, I agree, or at least the cost and tech requirement for that should be enormous.

I mean terraforming Jupiter to be colonizable on the surface takes an efforts several orders of magnitude more than a planet like Mars or Venus. Settling the atmosphere issue doesn't solve the massive gravity issue.

If we are to terraform gas giants perhaps it should be a bit like the asteroid bases. The terraforming really means building floating bases. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to land on Jupiter you'd need to freeze it, but the next steps involve thawing it again, and the sheer size of it. Doesn't sound plausible to me.

2) Also sounds good to me.

3) Hmm, I don't understand why.

4. Why? Why not Ocean/Arctic instead?

5) Well that's what I thought as well, though it really shouldn't be cheap.

6, 7, 8) I agree, although perhaps there should be an "asteroid capitol building" which costs energy and provides food and those 40% habitability. Or a modifier should provide the habitability, at least none of the races should have inherent habitability for them it'll just fill up on the tooltip and confuse things, especially as all races should have equal habitability for those bases.

9) Yes, that makes more sense to me too.
 
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@calake

1. Yes I have read before that gas world do have solid cores and guess its possible to maybe do this. So why not. I am fine with what ever you would like to do and we will just test it and go from there.

2. to 4. I thought it should that be way for balance, but if you want to do that way I see why and support it.

5. I see a tomb world as world that was once 6 of the many worlds but after the war or whatever it barely supports life; however, it could be terrform back to the way it was before or to one of the other 6 types of world. If we are going to allow gas, toxic, and barren worlds to be terrformed, then I think it would be able to bring life back to a tomb world.

6. I am glad that you know agree with this. This reminds me of a book that I have read in the past.
 
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I'm unsure what you mean, less techs that give it? Less traits? Reduced effect?
Well I kept it non specific so now we can discuss it. Initially I thought just reduce all of the habitability modifiers down to 50% of what they are now. i.e. Paradise dome = 5% habitability.
The idea being to encourage further specialization. atm it's pretty easy to ignore terraforming and just stack habitability. I think at best you should be able to comfortably inhabit secondary environment. Colonies in extreme environment should still be possible, but risky, and less efficient.

I assume random events? I guess the planetary administration deactivates the event.
Yeah we could do it this way. However losing all pops should force planet abandonment. It's very unlikely to happen once you have 5 pops though.

I think the largest chance for failure should be in the period before the first pop even gets established. I don't remember how long that period is right now, but I was thinking that period might be 8-10 years.
Good idea. You could have random events happen during this time that could be good or bad. i.e. "Colonists find fertile plains", or "Disease spreads among our colonist".

Events pre-administration, but post colony establishment, should still apply risk, but less of it. i.e. "Colonists are cut off from supplies -food", "Crops destroyed by plague of unknown pests" etc...

These events should be significantly more likely with low habitability. i.e. "Pops are freezing to death, machinery stops working"

Starving pops should have a MTTH to die randomly.

^These are just random ideas I came up with, don't take them too seriously for the time being. Suggest a few idea if you can think of any.

Although I think many people would be annoyed if there weren't player input and it simply failed.
Absolutely agree, it would have to be play tested and fine tuned.

5. I see a tomb world as world that was once 6 of the many worlds but after the war or whatever it barely supports life; however, it could be terrform back to the way it was before or to one of the other 6 types of world. If we are going to allow gas, toxic, and barren worlds to be terrformed, then I think it would be able to bring life back to a tomb world.
Yeah, ok, I can agree to this. Tomb worlds are pretty rare as is, and this would increase their utility. I think there should be benefits to keeping it a tomb world though, since it's a pretty unique environment.
 

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Yeah, ok, I can agree to this. Tomb worlds are pretty rare as is, and this would increase their utility. I think there should be benefits to keeping it a tomb world though, since it's a pretty unique environment.
There are huge benefits already, the radioactive wasteland gives sizable research bonuses, not to mention that it IS technically already habitable and the cost of terraforming it should be comparable to terraforming a barren one.

Looks at this jewel I found:
SEcu2MN.jpg
 
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@Velorian Good points, I absolutely agree.

@Velorian @hyme

I will try to have version 0.1.0 done by Monday.

This will, if all goes to plan, include asteroid bases in their most basic form. Any suggestions on this specifically would be most helpful to me.

Also tell me which galaxy setting you would most like to balance around.

Elliptical - 2.5k

It should work for any other setting also, but it would be helpful to know under what conditions I should be testing balance, pacing etc.
 
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Velorian

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I haven't actually tried Elliptical - 2.5k I'm currently using 4Spirals - 1.25k.

On my laptop I had slight slowdown when using a 1.5k savegame from late midgame, no such issue on my desktop but I figured it signalled the limit.

On the other hand if we actually balance it for 2.5k then maybe we can make habitable worlds actually kind of rare, which will speed things up a bit comparably. At 2.5k the hyperlinks must get kinda short though.

I'm not at my own house during the weekend but I can try running an observation game on my desktop at 2.5k during the week. It can run through a few centuries and I can see if there's any lag.

The main part of our balancing will be about the ratios of planetary types which is fairly independent of map size though, so I'm not sure it matters which size we balanced it around.