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Meneth

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That is quite interesting idea. As I plan to do also Persian overhaul (some time in the future, probably after East Africa), this might be interesting starter and it will certainly be taken into consideration.
Though I don't remember why the caliphates were downgraded to duchies, IIRC they used to be kingdoms once, didn't they?
OTOH, I'm not sure if making Fatimids k_shia instead of k_egypt would solve anything - they already own de-facto the entire de-jure kingdom of Egypt, so they could easily just claim also k_egypt (unless it is made sunni, but then it would disable creation of christian Egypt, which would IMO suck too).

The Fatimid North African blobing has almost nothing with k_egypt - they own everything of k_egypt in North Africa except Cyrenaica, so if they go beyond it, it has nothing to do with k_egypt title.
Just making the requirements a bit more stringent could keep the Fatimids from creating Egypt for a long time. For example it'd be entirely possible to have it require a low decadence, and have the Fatimids start with high decadence (which would be quite historical). Numerous other requirements are also doable, of course.
 

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According to the "issues with custom maps" thread it is now impossible to have a county without a kingdom, which I can confirm.
The game will start, but will crash the moment you switch to the dejure kingdom map.
 

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Hello. First, I would like to say I really like this map. Played with it in the tPatT mod and now I am playing CK2+, I find I really miss it. However, I can't say I am fully satisfied with the mod either, having found a few issues that greatly bother me. As such, I am taking the liberty to post here my criticism and questions about what I find to be some of the questionable decisions about the map.

First, lets start with the cultures. They are all over the place. Some places, like catholic Iberia and Italy, were heavily fractured in tis cultures, where other places, such as Germany and Russia, remained monolithic. This seems very inconsistent to me. There was really such a greater difference between a Tuscan and a Lombard, when compared to a Bavarian and a (Germanic) Saxon? In fact, I may be wrong, but I believe there was no great difference between Galician and Portuguese for most part of the time frame, so splitting them seems somewhat wrong to me. At any rate, this makes the culture set up seems artificial to me.

Furthermore, a some of the new cultures seems rather pointless, at last in the earliest start date. Bosnian, for example. There isn't a single Bosnian ruler at 1066. And since it is already a fairly small culture to begin with, it is very likely going to be simply replaced by the Croats eventually. Most of the Iberian cultures have the same problem. They do have some rulers to offset the problem, but they will likely never expand through the game (as they did historically) and only become smaller, due to the dominance of the Castilians.

In the end, I have to question what the gameplay purpose they serve. Is this extra foreign opinion malus going to change the game for the better? You can't say they make the game much more historical either, since, due to the game mechanics, many of the smaller cultures will never follow their historical progression. As such, I believe there was simply too much new cultures. They probably could use some timering, to see which ones are worth to keep and which should be merged together.

About the de jure set up. It is good, as far I can tell. I particularly like the de jure Papacy, although it seems to be broken, at last on tPatT (it is not the same title as the one the Pope holds). If I had to mention something, it would be about the amount of small de jure kingdoms, each with one or two duchy in each. Wouldn't make more sense for them to be titular kingdoms instead? Kingdom of Bosnia, was only created near the end of the game, so I believe it is a tad weird to have them on the map since the start (not to mention the high probability of being assimilated by Croatia, anyway).

Another thing about the de jure kingdoms is Germany. Not really a criticism, as I have currently no opinion about it, but why partition Germany into kingdom level duchies?

A minor thing but that really bugged me is the impassable mountains on Iberia. The original impassable mountains are really impressive mountain ranges such as the Alpes, but in Iberia, it seems every hill is impassable. Considering it is just there and not anywhere else, it seems very weird. It also makes the names really ugly around there.

Well, I think this is it. Sorry if this are issues that have been already brought before, but they were things that really bugged me while playing. Again, other than that, this map is really freaking awesome, so don't take it the bad way.
When it comes to the Germans, I believe splitting them up is simply not something the SWMH team has gotten around to yet. No idea about Russian though.
Galician and Portuguese do sound like they'd make sense to merge though.
Bosnians definitely existed at the time, though I don't really have any opinion on whether the culture should be in the game or not. As a dejure kingdom I don't see any reason for them to exist though.
As to the impassable mountains in Iberia, I for the most part like them, though I think they're overdone in some places:
  • The one between Viscaya and mots of Castille makes little sense as it makes it harder for them to project their force there, even though it was an area they had good control over
  • The one between Castille and Najera, as there were military operations in this area, most notably in the war of the three Sanchos
The rest are based on actual mountains and deserts (?) and help encourage historical borders. There's a good reason why the kingdom of Asturias for example managed to hold onto exactly the area it did despite a large Muslim force on the peninsula.
 

Meneth

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Also, looking through the history files to see the evolution of the Iberian kingdoms, the impassable borders actually break up some realms in some unnatural ways, so I wonder if they really help at all.
It should be noted that most of the history in SWMH after 1066 isn't terribly accurate, as new provinces have essentially just had the vanilla history applied. As such strange borders will arise at times, so just looking at the SWMH map through history doesn't necessarily give an accurate picture of Iberian border changes.
 

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Fair enough.

But, still, the 1066 set up, at last, is supposed to be accurate, right? And in this very set up Castilla is broken down by impassable borders in an unnatural way. This was the first clue I got that said borders might be a bit too overboard.
Yeah, I agree that that impassable border shouldn't be there, and also the one between Castille and Najera (there was significant fighting in the Burgos-Najera area during the war of the three Sanchos).
 

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County culture should always represent the local population, in my opinion (and I'm certain this is how SWMH handles them), just as county religion should. Characters have their own culture and religion, and they are the ones who represent the 'elite'.
I've always considered culture and religion to represent the bureaucrats and such, so essentially the upper and middle class.
If it were to represent county religion/culture, then religious conversion would be far too fast, even in PB where it is slowed down quite a bit. In vanilla you can convert the entire Holy Land in decades, which is obviously not possible in reality without putting large numbers of people to the sword.
 
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Meneth

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The actual cultures are mostly irrelevant. More important is the use of cultures to introduce balance and plausible results.

Ahistoric setup = historic gameplay.
Though they should obviously be at least partly historical; Atlantean culture in eastern Russia would be silly for example.
 

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^This! I hate the vanilla map so much that I still haven't tried out The Old Gods, it's just terrible. Currently fiddling around with PB + SWMH + VIET + (few small mods) on 1.092 while I wait for the new version of SWMH.
It's actually not that bad.
It's just that it looks terrible once you've seen what a truly great map looks like.
 

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To all those saying that province culture and religion represents the nobility in-game, you're simply wrong. When you send your chaplain to convert a province and he succeeds, the report reads, "My liege, I have managed to convert the majority of the populace of [PROVINCENAME] to [RELIGION]." Conversion of the nobility is entirely separate, and that is when your chaplain will say, "My liege, I have managed to convert your errant subject, [VASSALNAME], to [RELIGION]."

To suggest that the cultures and religion of provinces represent the nobles is suggesting something entirely different from the actual reality in the game mechanics. Just thought I should set things straight for the discussion.
Nobles never cared too much about the actual population, so populace could still easily just refer to the middle class.
And to my knowledge Paradox have said something similar to culture/religion not representing the population as a whole.

When you look at the actual mechanics rather than the flavor text, middle class makes more sense. If not both culture and religious conversion are far too fast. The lower class were for the most part quite unimportant in the Medieval period.
 

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But the middle class is mostly non-existent in this era except in very rare cases, so that makes very little actual sense. I see the province culture/religion as an entire census of the populace of a province regardless of their class. This affects the general culture and feel of a province, and thus characters (the ruling class) born there are likely to become that culture or religion if they weren't already. That is how the game mechanics work, at least.
There's plenty of middle and upper-middle class.
The merchants, the burghers, the clergy, the bureaucrats, the administrators, and all sorts of people like that. Very minor landed and unlanded nobles as well, of course, and large land owners.
Everyone else were essentially irrelevant.
 

Meneth

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Couldn't one just re-purpose the Norse events? Only instead of splitting Norse into Norwegian, Swedish, Danish it would split Frankish into French, Dutch and German?
Would work well for the 867 start, yes.
Not so well for the 1066 start, seeing as the SWMH team would want things to be as accurate as possible then.
 

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I would assume by 1066 there would be no Franks left... only the Germans, French and Dutch as it was in previous versions of the mod.
Oh, sorry. I misread and thought the idea was to split things up further in 1066.
In that case, it should only be maybe what... 5-10 hours of work? Just need to make all German, Dutch, and French rulers born before year something (950 perhaps; that ensures they're all dead by 1066) Proto-Frankish, and clone the Norse event for it.
 

Meneth

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SWMH 2.75 released 09:53 (according to what I see on the forum here).

PB SWMH released 09.59.

6 minute difference. Hmm. If modding were an olympic sport Meneth would be breaking records everyday.
As you've probably figured out from the "Meneth for extensive bugfixing support" bit in the credits, I did in fact have access to the new version before it was released ;)
So while I'd love to say I did it in 6 minutes, that's sadly not the case. It was downloadable 3 minutes after SWMH 2.75, though.
 

Meneth

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@SWMH team:
I think you might've added too many holdings/provinces to Russia in your Russian overhaul.
In 1066, Kiev and Rostov alone are two of the 10 strongest realms in the world, beating for example England and the Byzantines in PB+SWMH, and each having about as large an army as all of Scandinavia combined.
Kiev starts with 24 provinces, and Rostov 21. That's about equivalent to all of dejure Norway or Sweden, but with a lot more holdings; Kiev has a realm size of 76 while Norway has one of 41 and Denmark one of 45.
It seems to me that some provinces should be merged, or at the very least the average number of holdings reduced.
What would also help is if the Russian dukes started out with actual vassals, so that they don't end up giving out every title above their demesne limit and thus ending up with vassals that absolutely adore them.

Edit: It's possible the province number is reasonable, as the Russian Empire is roughly equivalent in provinces to the British Isles, Scandinavia, and Iberia.
The number of holdings though definitely need to be reduced, and they shouldn't start out holding every single county in their realms personally.
 
Last edited:

Meneth

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You are defiantly right some need a little nerf. The big annoying issue with the titles is the 1066 startdate, it was one of the calmest periods and the periods with fewest princes.:glare:
Had it been 30 years earlier the Rurikids wouldn't have been the only ones in the neighbourhood, and had it been 30 years later you would be approaching the period were all the sub principalities began to pop up.
I think the best would be to just hand some titles out to the courtiers, RL minor princes is more less impossible to find for the early start dates.
Yeah, handing out to some ahistorical characters is probably best. I'd give them a few provinces each so they have some individual power but not too much, while letting the duke himself keep all the provinces in his dejure duchy.
There should be less holdings in Russia though; Kiev and Rostov each start with almost twice as many holdings in their realm as the Scandinavian kingdoms.
 

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I will commence operation nerf :ninja:
Looking forward to it.
Leon is not part of Espana, i'm guessing this is a bug.
Yes, that's related to the introduction of Asturias in vanilla. I'm guessing Asturias in SWMH doesn't dejure belong to anything, so when Leon imports their history, that leads to Leon being removed from España.