[MOD] SWMH 2.0 Map, de jure and general history mod. For a superior CK2 experience

[Aasmul]

and one with a ship on the Elbe itself(as you can see its a bit bigish:glare

if the ship is reduced with a third in size it looks like this

I read up on Ringkøbing fjord a bit, and it was a vig back then and only the northen part of vig was closed by land

 

[Ruwaard]

Glad you like it, I hope Holland is looking a bit better to

Frisia to will get a little overhaul one of the next days. So that Rüstringen and the other medival counties that lay where there was land back then can get into the game.


and one with a ship on the Elbe itself(its a bit bigish:glare

The Schelde (Scheldt) (in the estuary it splits in the Oosterschelde (Eastern Scheldt) and Westerschelde (Western Scheldt) schould be sailable too, at least upto Antwerpen (Antwerp).

Regarding the sea province, it would be better named Noordzee (North Sea) instead; the Waddenzee is the sea between the Frisian Islands and mainland Frisia (West Friesland & Friesland) and Groningen and most of that sea province is the Noordzee (North Sea) and not the Waddenzee. BTW the inland sea, used to known as the Zuiderzee (Southern Sea).

Regarding Frisia/Friesland do you mean just the coast line or will you turn every Frisian Gau/Gouw into a province (IMHO that might be a bit too much, even all the Seven Frisian Sea Lands, not to mention all 20 gauen/gouwen)?

Finally have you changed your set up in Lotharingia yet, regarding Lower Lorraine/Pfalz/Lothier; you know that I added a ducal tier Pfalz and turned Lower Lorraine into a titular duchy of Lothier.

 

[sir Eyeball]

I cheked how it looked with a Navigable Elbe this morning and Im not shure that it looks that good(and that ought a be the easiest of the rivers to do).

as visible the ship is massive when being in port and it gets substantial bigger when being on the river itself(twice as big or somthing like that). Having the Helgioland bight go all the way down to hamburg looks a bit better(but it sort of defeats the point)

Never mind that then it would have been a cool feature but if it doesn't work it doesn't work. The river travels for warfare was almost done at this point in history anyway as nations started to defend the rivers with fortifications.

 

[sir Eyeball]

and one with a ship on the Elbe itself(as you can see its a bit bigish:glare

if the ship is reduced with a third in size it looks like this

I read up on Ringkøbing fjord a bit, and it was a vig back then and only the northen part of vig was closed by land

Well I knew some of it was water it is just that the very round Vig we have today is man made it could look mare natural if it was more smooth if you know what I mean?

 

[Aasmul]

The Schelde (Scheldt) (in the estuary it splits in the Oosterschelde (Eastern Scheldt) and Westerschelde (Western Scheldt) schould be sailable too, at least upto Antwerpen (Antwerp).

Regarding the sea province, it would be better named Noordzee (North Sea) instead; the Waddenzee is the sea between the Frisian Islands and mainland Frisia (West Friesland & Friesland) and Groningen and most of that sea province is the Noordzee (North Sea) and not the Waddenzee. BTW the inland sea, used to known as the Zuiderzee (Southern Sea).

Regarding Frisia/Friesland do you mean just the coast line or will you turn every Frisian Gau/Gouw into a province (IMHO that might be a bit too much, even all the Seven Frisian Sea Lands, not to mention all 20 gauen/gouwen)?

Finally have you changed your set up in Lotharingia yet, regarding Lower Lorraine/Pfalz/Lothier; you know that I added a ducal tier Pfalz and turned Lower Lorraine into a titular duchy of Lothier.

Just the coast line, it will be two more province max. Rüstringen for shure, and then maybe one of the westerns aswell. I haven't thought out a solution for Palz yet but I will try and find one before we release 2.44.

Never mind that then it would have been a cool feature but if it doesn't work it doesn't work. The river travels for warfare was almost done at this point in history anyway as nations started to defend the rivers with fortifications.

well it works its just not very pretty, with the reduced ships it looks okay I guess. Im more worried of the other rivers, Guadalquivir and Elbe ought be the best looking.

Well I knew some of it was water it is just that the very round Vig we have today is man made it could look mare natural if it was more smooth if you know what I mean?

I think I saw a map from the 16-17th century, there it was portayed as going further inland at the bottom, where there wasn't a sand barrier, than the north were there was a barrier.

will try and paint it like that, btw did you notice that a new place has gotten trees?

 

[sir Eyeball]

Actually no I didn't Where is that? I noticed there was a harbour inland on the river. I don't think ships from inland provinces are a good idea as stated earlier the ships for seagoing were not build inland and river boats should not count towards the total ships for carrying troops.

 

[Aasmul]

Actually no I didn't Where is that? I noticed there was a harbour inland on the river. I don't think ships from inland provinces are a good idea as stated earlier the ships for seagoing were not build inland and river boats should not count towards the total ships for carrying troops.

well I thought Sjælland looked a bit barren
I also wanted to have some forest in the north, but tree map is really crude, so half would end up in Øresund

Glückstadt and Hamburg did have real harbours(but if there isn't to be a river to sail at then it dosn't matter)


edit- does anyone know of a good medival east frisian map? the one in Rüstringens wiki is a bit hard to put into context, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCstringen

 

[sir Eyeball]

now that you say it yah that looks good. True if the rivers stay unsailable then harbours are moot.

 

[Keanon]

edit- does anyone know of a good medival east frisian map? the one in Rüstringens wiki is a bit hard to put into context, http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCstringen

Having extensively hunted any sources at all possible for the development of the land and coastlines by the Waddensee, these are maps you might not've seen that helps a bit in that regard by showing modern coastlines atop:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Ostfriesland_um_1300.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Friesische_Seelande_um_1300.png

http://www.spd-hage.de/imperia/md/i.../hage/hagermarsch/ostfriesland_um_800_web.jpg

The last one is the year 800, but it is context you ask for and it does give you some.


Edit: Also, you have drawn Nordstrand as it looks after Rungholt sunk.
http://www.g.eversberg.eu/MWSchulg/BilderSchulgeschichten/rungholt.jpg

And Blekinge is in it's modern form, Lister Herred wasn't moven to Blekinge until much later.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Listers_härad.jpg

Apart from this, I think it looks as good as is at all possible on a 2048x map.

 

[Aasmul]

Having extensively hunted any sources at all possible for the development of the land and coastlines by the Waddensee, these are maps you might not've seen that helps a bit in that regard by showing modern coastlines atop:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Ostfriesland_um_1300.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Friesische_Seelande_um_1300.png

http://www.spd-hage.de/imperia/md/i.../hage/hagermarsch/ostfriesland_um_800_web.jpg

The last one is the year 800, but it is context you ask for and it does give you some.

Thanks Keanon its much better than what I found, having the present day coastline visible is a big help.

Edit: Also, you have drawn Nordstrand as it looks after Rungholt sunk.
http://www.g.eversberg.eu/MWSchulg/BilderSchulgeschichten/rungholt.jpg

And Blekinge is in it's modern form, Lister Herred wasn't moven to Blekinge until much later.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Listers_härad.jpg

both WAD(or more precisly working as needed). As far as I have been able to work out Blekinge didn't have any kind of propper settlements in the majority of the gameperiod(Bokul could have been there, but I have only found very spares info on it), everything was just a lot of little farmsteads(so I needed to include Sölvesborg and that means having lister herred).
And for Rungholt there wasn't space for the pre 1362 islands, so I had to go with the 1652 islands instead.

Apart from this, I think it looks as good as is at all possible on a 2048x map.

Thanks , it is really difficult to make the visuals right on such a small scale, im glad it didn't turn to bad out.

 

[Aasmul]

I have been working a bit more on Hollands coastlines(kind of have to when also editing central and east frisia), I was thinking of making it follow the roughly the same timeline as the Frisian stuff. The only map I have found is this one in the wikipedia page of the Rhine-Meus-Schledt delta the one on the right being from 1000 would be the one im aiming at. Would that be a good idea or is the one on the above screneis preffered?

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

I have been working a bit more on Hollands coastlines(kind of have to when also editing central and east frisia), I was thinking of making it follow the roughly the same timeline as the Frisian stuff. The only map I have found is this one in the wikipedia page of the Rhine-Meus-Schledt delta the one on the right being from 1000 would be the one im aiming at. Would that be a good idea or is the one on the above screneis preffered?

If 1000 is the closest you can get, then go for that.

 

[Arko]

I have been working a bit more on Hollands coastlines(kind of have to when also editing central and east frisia), I was thinking of making it follow the roughly the same timeline as the Frisian stuff. The only map I have found is this one in the wikipedia page of the Rhine-Meus-Schledt delta the one on the right being from 1000 would be the one im aiming at. Would that be a good idea or is the one on the above screneis preffered?

the 1000 one is very nice. +1 for me

 

[Naoki]

On a completely different note:

with the introduction of 3 duchies needed for creating a King title (not sure if tPatT or this mod) there's the awkward situation of being impossible to create certain kingdoms, which are composed of only 2 duchies (such is the case of Bohemia).
How do you plan on addressing that?

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

On a completely different note:

with the introduction of 3 duchies needed for creating a King title (not sure if tPatT or this mod) there's the awkward situation of being impossible to create certain kingdoms, which are composed of only 2 duchies (such is the case of Bohemia).
How do you plan on addressing that?

In theory you just need another ducal title; so for the Kingdom of Bohemia the duchies Bohemia, Moravia, and say... Cornwall will allow you to make the title. But I understand what you mean and I agree there should be certain exceptions: 3 duchies and 500 prestige or 2 duchies and 1500 prestige sort of thing.

 

[Aasmul]

If 1000 is the closest you can get, then go for that.

the 1000 one is very nice. +1 for me

two votes on 1000

On a completely different note:

with the introduction of 3 duchies needed for creating a King title (not sure if tPatT or this mod) there's the awkward situation of being impossible to create certain kingdoms, which are composed of only 2 duchies (such is the case of Bohemia).
How do you plan on addressing that?

as far as im aware no resrtictions like that is present in SWMH(there is special requirments attached to some entities but, there should not be such a universal restriction on kingdoms(and there is no special protection on Bohemia))
so it almost got to be P&T thing :unsure:

 

[Naoki]

gonna move the question there, then

 

[Ruwaard]

two votes on 1000

as far as im aware no resrtictions like that is present in SWMH(there is special requirments attached to some entities but, there should not be such a universal restriction on kingdoms(and there is no special protection on Bohemia))
so it almost got to be P&T thing :unsure:

If 1000 AD is the closest you can get, you should use that, but IMHO something from around the 12th century could be better. In I quick search I did find a map depicting 1350, but that might be too late for some.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...of_the_Low_Countries_(1350)-NL.svg?uselang=nl

And a less detailed one from around 1100.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...1100_(traditioneel)_digischool.png?uselang=nl

Even some of the older HRE maps aren't that bad, but since they also focus on other stuff it isn't their main concern.

I guess it is P & T thing too, since I usually use BGA, but I might give P & T another go (I'll probably end up making at least the same changes I made in this mod (less empires and kingdoms).
Regarding the kingdom of Bohemia, I usually mod in that for the creation of Bohemia, you (or your vassal) must own both the duchy of Bohemia and (margraviate of) Moravia.

 

[Aasmul]

If 1000 AD is the closest you can get, you should use that, but IMHO something from around the 12th century could be better. In I quick search I did find a map depicting 1350, but that might be too late for some.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...of_the_Low_Countries_(1350)-NL.svg?uselang=nl

And a less detailed one from around 1100.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...1100_(traditioneel)_digischool.png?uselang=nl

Even some of the older HRE maps aren't that bad, but since they also focus on other stuff it isn't their main concern.

thanks , my own hunt for maps didn't produce any results
(maybe I should have searched in other than english) so these are nice to get hold off.

I think the 1100 is better than the 1350, looking on the northgerman and the Danish coastlines of the 1350 one they don't match 1350, so we can't be shure about Hollands is correct. Its strange that the coastline would have differed so much from 1000 to 1100 though but its hard to know what is right or wrong. Which one do you think is most correct?

I usually mod in that for the creation of Bohemia, you (or your vassal) must own both the duchy of Bohemia and (margraviate of) Moravia

thats a good choice of creation, we just might steal that one

 

[Keanon]

Between the establishments of dikes, the movement of the sand and the floods removing said dikes again and moving more sand around, the Waddensee was very chaotic betweenthe 11th and the 17th century, so you should just go for 1, what looks good and 2 what portrays the necessary provinces best.