[MOD] SWMH 2.0 Map, de jure and general history mod. For a superior CK2 experience
- Thread starter Aasmul
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Why isn't Ethiopia (Abyssinia) an empire in the later start dates? The "Negusa Negast" title (emperor_ethiopian) was used by the Solomonic dynasty (1270+), so it makes sense that Ethiopia would be a titular empire from that point on.
For the same reason that Bulgaria and Serbia aren't Empires either. We don't really do Petty Empires in SWMH
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But... Bulgaria is an empire in later start dates.
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Thinking of it, a petty empire (empire-rank kingdom) could be an excellent solution...
Why not?
Not in base SWMH. It's an Empire in EMF+SWMH (it's a leftover from PB that Ziji kept)
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Well it could remain kingdom rank but have the imperial decay system and all that added.
You have to download whole HIP and choose to install only SWHM.
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I apologize if I am posting in wrong thread, but I would like to suggest few minor things for Great Moravia:
1. Succession: if you are not familiar with history of rulers, here is short summary (I will be using Slovak version of their names): Mojmír took over Nitra, was later deposed and his nephew Rastislav was put as a ruler by Franks. He was later deposed by his nephews Svätopluk, who after changing sides few times became ruler. When he died naturally, his oldest son, Mojmír, inherited his kingdom (although his title most likely wasn´t king, but was called king by his contemporaries), while his younger son, Svätopluk, inherited Nitra. Now, succession in Great Moravia is Seniority (AFAIK), but from its history, the only time when real succession happened, his titles were divided between his sons, which is Gavelkind. So, my suggestion is to change succcession to Gavelkind.
2. Name: Great Moravia (Velká Morava/Veľká Morava) is incorrect name. Name "megale Moravia" was used in De Administrando Imperio, but it most likely meant old or far, not great. And in other sources, it is called simply "realm of Moravians". Name should be IMO changed to reflect how it was called at that time (just like Byzantine Empire is called Basileia Rhomaion) and not how we call it now. So, Morava instead of Velká Morava.
1. Succession: if you are not familiar with history of rulers, here is short summary (I will be using Slovak version of their names): Mojmír took over Nitra, was later deposed and his nephew Rastislav was put as a ruler by Franks. He was later deposed by his nephews Svätopluk, who after changing sides few times became ruler. When he died naturally, his oldest son, Mojmír, inherited his kingdom (although his title most likely wasn´t king, but was called king by his contemporaries), while his younger son, Svätopluk, inherited Nitra. Now, succession in Great Moravia is Seniority (AFAIK), but from its history, the only time when real succession happened, his titles were divided between his sons, which is Gavelkind. So, my suggestion is to change succcession to Gavelkind.
2. Name: Great Moravia (Velká Morava/Veľká Morava) is incorrect name. Name "megale Moravia" was used in De Administrando Imperio, but it most likely meant old or far, not great. And in other sources, it is called simply "realm of Moravians". Name should be IMO changed to reflect how it was called at that time (just like Byzantine Empire is called Basileia Rhomaion) and not how we call it now. So, Morava instead of Velká Morava.
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Any suggestions about localizing title names? It always felt weird to play as a realm with its native name but using the English titles.
Well, since most of players don´t know Glagolitic, as it is not used in its original form anywhere, I think the best way is to keep it as it is. And while I an not linguist myself, I doubt name of Moravia (Morava in Czech and Slovak) changed from 9. century onwards.
About title, I had discussion some time ago with someone who knew a lot about history (while not historian himself, he read many books about this topic) and he told me that traditional Slavic "king" title (by that I mean title for independent ruler) was "knyaz" (in English, you would say prince), which was used a lot by East Slavs. Even now, in my language, this word is used in its changed form ("knieža", while word for son of a king is "princ"). And in our history books, rulers of Great Moravia are described as "knieža", not king. Only Svätopluk is called king, because some western written sources call him "rex". Question is, was he considered to be king by his people, did Svätopluk himself even think of himself as a king? If we want to use some title for localization of Moravian rulers, I think this is the right one. Although, there is slight problem: We don´t actually have writings written by Moravians, because apparently, they didn´t give a shit. So, maybe someone who knows about Slavonic language will come and tell us, what was original word for "knieža" (or "kníže", as it is in Czech), but I don´t really know exact word.
About title, I had discussion some time ago with someone who knew a lot about history (while not historian himself, he read many books about this topic) and he told me that traditional Slavic "king" title (by that I mean title for independent ruler) was "knyaz" (in English, you would say prince), which was used a lot by East Slavs. Even now, in my language, this word is used in its changed form ("knieža", while word for son of a king is "princ"). And in our history books, rulers of Great Moravia are described as "knieža", not king. Only Svätopluk is called king, because some western written sources call him "rex". Question is, was he considered to be king by his people, did Svätopluk himself even think of himself as a king? If we want to use some title for localization of Moravian rulers, I think this is the right one. Although, there is slight problem: We don´t actually have writings written by Moravians, because apparently, they didn´t give a shit. So, maybe someone who knows about Slavonic language will come and tell us, what was original word for "knieža" (or "kníže", as it is in Czech), but I don´t really know exact word.
1. Yes, I agree. I am the one responsible for the changes in this region and to be hones, I never really cared about succession back then. So yes, this seems reasonable.
I'd only see one potential issue with Gavelkind: It usually leads to weakening the realm, while Moravia should aim the other way IMHO - to strong Svatopluk's* rule
* I would prefer to use Moravian version of names. Since Moravian culture was a merger for Moravians/Slovaks and neither of them had standardized written form back then, the Slovak got its written form few centuries later than Moravian.
That's why I preferred to use Moravian/Czech version of names for most of the characters.
2. Absolutely yes. This is actually something I have always wanted to do. I even thought I did it before leaving the team, but it seems like I forgot. Great Moravia/Velká Morava is a misinterpretation and it should be called this way only if the kings manage to create an empire.
As I vaguely remember reading Třeštík's books on Moravian history, I think the rulers should be called kniez. There's only one tiny problem: The Slavs in Moravia/Carpathian basin didn't use the equivalent of the rex title. They only had the version of kniez/kniaz and its local dialect forms for rulers of tribes. This title fits to the ducal tier in CK2. But simultaniously Moravia was on its rather clear way to become more powerfull and for gameplay reasons it makes sense to have it as kingdom already in Rostislav's time (while in reality it should only be Svatopluk who acquires the king-tier title).
And since king-tier title in Moravian and Bohemian is clearly Král, this is the only title which should IMHO be used, despite being little anachronistic for the ruler of Moravia.. especialy for Rostislav
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I was using Slovak version only because I am Slovak myself, so there is 100% chance I will get all names right, while with Czech, I may mess up something.
About Svätopluk and Moravia during his reign. Thing is, just like with many other strong, capable rulers (Charlemagne, for example), he was able to increase size of his realm extremely, but it fell apart after his death, with only its core from times of Mojmír and Rastislav remaining (which was split between Mojmír II. and Svätopluk II., his sons, while younger Svätopluk was still vassal of Mojmír). Unfortunately, I forgot the name of historian who told me this (damn my memory, dude is pretty important, more than 90 years old), but Svätopluk is one of few people who have never lost any battle (as far as we know), which is quite cool, considering all written sources about his battles come from his enemies.
What I am trying to say is that standard for Moravia should not be Svätopluk, but instead Mojmír, Rastislav and Mojmír II. And during their reign, area of Moravia didn´t increase that much (if we don´t count conquest of Nitra by Mojmír).
About title, I think Moravia could become similar to County of Castille, Empire of Nicaea and so on. Mechanically, it should be kingdom, which has its ruler title localized as "kniez". Even when Svätopluk was called "rex" by written sources, there is no reason to believe there was some change in title of Moravian ruler during his reign, but instead, this title was reflection of his power, where people in the west considered him to be de facto king. Also, title kníže/knieža (current Czech/Slovak version of "kniez") is in our languagew above title "vojvoda" (duke) and should be translated as "prince" and is used for independent rulers (including rulers of Moravia). So, I don´t see any problem in Moravia being a kingdom with ruler title localized to be "kniez".
About Svätopluk and Moravia during his reign. Thing is, just like with many other strong, capable rulers (Charlemagne, for example), he was able to increase size of his realm extremely, but it fell apart after his death, with only its core from times of Mojmír and Rastislav remaining (which was split between Mojmír II. and Svätopluk II., his sons, while younger Svätopluk was still vassal of Mojmír). Unfortunately, I forgot the name of historian who told me this (damn my memory, dude is pretty important, more than 90 years old), but Svätopluk is one of few people who have never lost any battle (as far as we know), which is quite cool, considering all written sources about his battles come from his enemies.
What I am trying to say is that standard for Moravia should not be Svätopluk, but instead Mojmír, Rastislav and Mojmír II. And during their reign, area of Moravia didn´t increase that much (if we don´t count conquest of Nitra by Mojmír).
About title, I think Moravia could become similar to County of Castille, Empire of Nicaea and so on. Mechanically, it should be kingdom, which has its ruler title localized as "kniez". Even when Svätopluk was called "rex" by written sources, there is no reason to believe there was some change in title of Moravian ruler during his reign, but instead, this title was reflection of his power, where people in the west considered him to be de facto king. Also, title kníže/knieža (current Czech/Slovak version of "kniez") is in our languagew above title "vojvoda" (duke) and should be translated as "prince" and is used for independent rulers (including rulers of Moravia). So, I don´t see any problem in Moravia being a kingdom with ruler title localized to be "kniez".
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Yup, I knew this, I only posted this to make it clearer for those, who don't really see the difference between Czech/Moravian and Slovak
and to point out that while I support all your suggestions, I think the name list should remain as it is.I agree that the standard should be Rastislav and Mojmír.. etc. basically pretty much everyone except Svatopluk, who, as we both agree, was exceptional ruler.
yup, this makes sense too
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Can I ask if this mod changes the clothing for the Orthodox and Miaphysite bishops? I found the clothing in the base game very generic, and I am hoping to find mods that fix this. Thank you in advance for any answers.
No this is a map and history mod primarily, Cpr+ is the portrait mod in Hip so you are best asking in its thread.
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Sorry for overlooking this...
well I do agree that from this perspective it would make sense to check.. but you know how tricky it is to base transcription of names on how those names were written by others.. often people (the clerics who wrote the sources) who never heard the original name. You're right that all the versions mentioned seem to suggest some form of nasalization... but I would be very cautious to draw these suggestions myself (if there is a professional historian or some other authority, I'd use its backing, but otherwise not. But my opinion here is no more relevant than anyone else's...