[MOD] SWMH 2.0 Map, de jure and general history mod. For a superior CK2 experience
- Thread starter Aasmul
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AFAIK this sort of thing is hardcoded. If the game thinks that the name cannot cover a given area, that's that.
It would be nice if they could port that EU4 feature where your realm name and colour go over wastelands that you completely surround.
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Well, the wait has certainly heightened my sense of anticipation. Back in May I'd just finished a great campaign and was merely looking forward to playing the next version. Now I'm on tenterhooks. 
I'm just going to address the elephant in the room and ask what is the obsession with Subsaharan Africa? There was nothing of note there during the time period. At the same time, wastelands have been added in areas that were actually inhabited (looking at the Ryn Desert, Arabian Desert, and Persia). For a mod claiming to be historical, it doesn't seem very historical to me.
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What form of obsession are you referring to? Could you be more specific?
Compared to what? May I inquire what your measuring stick is here?
I believe whether an army could march through the given area was one of the bigger factors behind the inaccessible desert provinces. But the SWMH should be able to give you a more complete answer.
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No, we won't
We need something bordering on miracles in terms of game speeds to even start considering that notion. For the foreseeable future we will stick solely to the current projection that we are introducing
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The Sahara contained many trading centres and even a few proper cities. Places like Ghadames and Bilma were important for trade, while salt mining generated huge amounts of wealth (salt was as rare as gold) in locations like Tawdani and Taghaza. Further south, kingdoms like Takrur, Ghana, and Kanem held power equivalent to the foremost European realms or Muslim sultanates. Finally, the desert enables representation of the Arab and Berber tribes that greatly influenced the Maghreb during the medieval era.
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Sure, they may have had power in their region, but its exactly that, their region. They had little to no influence on Europe, which is what the game is primarily about. It is called Crusader Kings for a reason. Granted, that is a whole other argument that I'd rather not get into. The point is, adding those regions serves no purpose other than just to add those regions. If you want to add areas that had at least a sliver of influence on the world, then you might as well add China, Japan, and the rest of Africa.
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You may not agree with it but that train left the station long ago.
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As the who's responsible for adding those regions, I'd really like to know what obsession you mean.
It is the historicity which is the reason for adding thm. The fact that our history (and also present) tends to ignore the importance of Africa doesn't mean Africa was not important at all, and even important for Europe.
Actually states like Wagadu (Ghana), Gao (Songhay) or Kanem had higher civilization than large parts of Europe quite far into the CK2 period.
Bambuk and Bure regions and their overlords of Wagadu and Mali were the major source of gold for the entire mediterranean region, the Slaves from Africa were quite important for working of the North African and Middle eastern societies (actually their importance in the muslim West was similar or even superior to the importance of Turks for the muslim East).
Let's not have empty declarations here. Could you tell us what particular place of note, I mean an inhabited area, did we left out? A single one example would be enough. Neither of those regions was actually inhabited and each of them presented an obstacle to both trade and moving armies (even compared to certain parts of Sahara through which armies did march, at least for pretty long time period within CK2 timeframe before the increased aridity of the late 12th and 13th century).
The impact of the Sub-Saharan and Saharan peoples on Europe was still more direct than of China, especially in the early and high mediaeval periods in both economic and political terms.
Desite the shiny legend of Silk road, the biggest and by far the most imporatant caravan trade route of the 11th-13th century for Europe was the "gold path" from Bambuk goldfields across the western Sahara to Sijilmasa and farther to Europe and Middle East. (note that the Silk road of the period was a shadow of Silk road of pre-Islamic times)
Was there no sub-Saharan Africa and its wealth and civilization, there would be no Almoravids who had massive impact on history of Spain, without the wealth of (sub-Saharan) Africa there would be no Sijilmasa and without it there would be no Fatimids, IMHO one of the most influential dynasties and forces in 11th century in the Crusader area.The Fezzan and the central Saharan route to Kanem had direct impact on Ifrikiya - the Tunis and Tripolitania area - which was important for Sicily- an impact comparable to the one of Central Asia for the Middle East.
So - Sub-Saharan Africa had direct impact on regions of essential importance for the core of Crusader kings.
The case of expanding/not expanding the map has been under quite hard and detailed scrutiny of importance and despite the popularity of China or Japan or even most of India, their impact on Europe and the Middle east was inferior to the one of Sub-Saharan Africa. One another factor in these considerations was the province count. While parts of Sub-Saharan Africa excluded from vanilla but included in SWMH consists of some 20 provinces(the huge and opulent Sahara has some 30provinces), the excluded part of India (in SWMH compared to vanilla) is 200 provinces. In China we're talking about no less than 500 provinces and we all know that SWMH is already on its limits. Actually it is the historical importance and sanity (gameplay and playability) what speaks in favour of adding these parts of Africa and excluding of large parts of India and China.
If you want and are ready to put some rational arguments (i.e. not the ones presented so far), I am ready (and eagerly looking forward) to take part in a more detailed dispute over this issue
If you want and are ready to put some rational arguments (i.e. not the ones presented so far), I am ready (and eagerly looking forward) to take part in a more detailed dispute over this issue
Not really. As I have stated only few posts above, I am fairly ready to reconsider the setup of the whole region. Frankly I was just about to ask what would be the HIP team's and community's position about more limited extent of Africa. With the changes brought by nomadism there is a room for saving provinces in the Sahara and the surrounding regions.. Actually, for sanity's sake, it's the biggest room for saving some provinces in order to increase performance, that's fact. I am also well aware that while I (objectively) think there are regions more eligible to have reduced their opulent number of provinces, there are probably more people plaing in Ireland than in the Hausaland or Kanem or even the central-Saharan Berber states.
I have actually suggested it and it was my own initiative, because let's be frank to ourselves, the opinion presented above, despite being overwhelmingly driven by ignorance rather than facts, is not expected to be rare.
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My only problem with the African provinces was that I didn't get holy war CBs on the provinces of Sahara and Fezzan, even though I should have. If that's WAD, then I can see why people want them removed. I know it seems shallow, but how else am I going to interact with them in this map-painting game? I'm not sure I understand how the gold trade or overall impact is represented in SWMH either - in my game, the sub-Saharan characters never moved out of their area.
It also seems that all provinces east of Mali/Mauretania don't get converted to EU4 at all, but when did that converter ever work properly. I
It also seems that all provinces east of Mali/Mauretania don't get converted to EU4 at all, but when did that converter ever work properly
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It's understandable sentiment, but it's little more complex issue. AFAIK this was (rightly) introduced by PB and EMF has it too, because not no settled empire had ever wanted to expand into the Sahara, because it was always viewn as wasteland. Therefore you need certain government type to be able to expand there which is correct. I could imagine that Fezzan might be excluded from this, because the Arab empire actually did expand there. OTOH in the 730's that empire was still semi-nomadic at least, so the government type rule would apply there too.
TLDR - the rule has historical basis and it actually makes sense - you need to be nomadic or tribal to be attracted to the Desert.
The converter never really worked for SWMH at all, so it's not problem of Africa but that nobody had ever really made the converter working.It also seems that all provinces east of Mali/Mauretania don't get converted to EU4 at all, but when did that converter ever work properly
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I couldn't disagree more further with Arrowfiend. North Africa's overhaul in SWMH is one of the superior elements of this mod over other mods, demonstrating how richly diverse this region was historically. And it's definitely a major improvement over the very lackluster North Africa of vanilla CK2.
Personally I wouldn't want a single province removed, not until the players get to test it out themselves. I at least experienced a lot of performance improvements with the new patch.
Personally I wouldn't want a single province removed, not until the players get to test it out themselves. I at least experienced a lot of performance improvements with the new patch.
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I hope it won't last long so you could actually play (or watch) the situation in the Sahara with HL mechanics. The current map was designed for pre-nomadic mechanics. With the current HL mechanics on the current map the nomads of the Sahara are actually weaker than they'd be if we decide to merge some provinces and keep the number of settlements.
But for the final judgement there would need to be more testing and I think that actually your- HIP-users' - feedback will tell and suggest whether it is necessary or not.
elvain, I believe DC123456789 is referring to how the scope of the Crusader Kings franchise is no longer limited to Europe. Some Paradox dev said as much last year or so, expressing his feeling that he finds the title too limiting for what the company wants to do with the franchise but also that the title is too well-known at this point to abandon.
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Is there a map like the one in the second thread but bigger so i can see the counties?
