That sounds like one hell of an update!
Do you plan any more modifications on the Balkans part of the map?
Do you plan any more modifications on the Balkans part of the map?
[MOD] SWMH 2.0 Map, de jure and general history mod. For a superior CK2 experience
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Yes, the rivers in area have been corrected and Serbia is already drawn(Im waiting to add positions until everything has been redrawn, since I will have to redo 1000+ positions:sad
, trying to figure out what to do with Croatia and Bosnia at the moment, so any ideas will be very welcome!!Btw do you know where to put Syrmia(upper)? Can't decide wether to put it in the duchy of Slavonia, duchy of Csanad or one of the Serbian duchies:unsure:
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These looks really cool and next update looks to be big one, good job.
Few questions though. First, Gardike? I had to google that It seems to be solely a Scandinavian term, shouldn't it be simply Kiev?
Second, it seems you're remaking Poland for the next release. I would be happy to preview/advice on things like barony setup if you need any help.
Also, not specifically about your mod, but does anyone else dislike that awful gray of the HRE/HRE duchies? It makes things unreadable on de jure maps.
Few questions though. First, Gardike? I had to google that
It seems to be solely a Scandinavian term, shouldn't it be simply Kiev?Second, it seems you're remaking Poland for the next release. I would be happy to preview/advice on things like barony setup if you need any help.
Also, not specifically about your mod, but does anyone else dislike that awful gray of the HRE/HRE duchies? It makes things unreadable on de jure maps.
These looks really cool and next update looks to be big one, good job.
Few questions though. First, Gardike? I had to google that
Second, it seems you're remaking Poland for the next release. I would be happy to preview/advice on things like barony setup if you need any help.
Also, not specifically about your mod, but does anyone else dislike that awful gray of the HRE/HRE duchies? It makes things unreadable on de jure maps.
Im glad you like it! Hopefully Poland will be less hurtfull for the eyes to look at after the next update...
Garðaríki(might be about time that I corrected the spelling :blush
: Just felt that it was less generic than Kievan Rus(which is a modern term), and its a name the ruling class and the Household guard(since the Varangian guard was modeled on the Rus Royal guard we can deduct that it was preserved for norsemen...) would have been familiar with. Being Danish I might be partial to it, but at least I haven't renamed the cities to their rightfull Norse names
.Polish barronies: Would really love some help with them, and the general polish layout(will post some screenshots on how it currently looks on Wendsday(exams...))
HRE: duchies you're absolutly right, one solution is to copy what Closet Skeleton did and use EU3 colors:unsure:, it would at least make the area more lively.
- edit: I just realised that I never asked your permission to add Polish Fixes:blush:, I am sorry and hope I can be forgiven?
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I'd tie Syrmia to one of the Hungarian duchies - Csanad, or Bacs, if you make that one into a separate duchy.Yes, the rivers in area have been corrected and Serbia is already drawn(Im waiting to add positions until everything has been redrawn, since I will have to redo 1000+ positions:sad
Btw do you know where to put Syrmia(upper)? Can't decide wether to put it in the duchy of Slavonia, duchy of Csanad or one of the Serbian duchies:unsure:
What troubles you about Croatia and Bosnia?
If you have any doubts about bosnia and that part, just ask. Name of cities, towns and castles are all wrong in CKII, they are based on modern towns like Široki Brijeg (lol) and so on...
Will put it in Csanad then, I was leaning in that direction intially but wasn't to sure.
Hmm, mostly its a question of how to compose provinces(which ones should be there and which should'nt) and duchies. The amount of input that one gets when searching on the Banate of Bosnian in particular is a bit on the lean side. The only useable info that I have come across, is on the kingdom of Bosnia(but thats centered on Hum so I can't really use that), the info on the composition of the older banate is very limited....
Generally Im just looking for some input on how the region ought a look(I have learned by now, that it is very rarely how its been done in vanilla CK2....), getting some hints on which direction I should start out with, is very usefull especially since Im researching/editing a very big area in the coming version.
Its the same in many areas in vanilla
If you take Belarus as an example, its a mixture of cities from around 1000 and towns that has been build during the construction of the local highways...I will definantly have some questions about the barronies, but at the moment Im actually having a more diffcult time getting info about which provinces the Banate should exsist of:unsure:, I can build them around the big cities of the time but if there is "counties" or the like, that should be there, I would like to base the provinces on those....
Well I can tell you what territories bosnian bans and kings gained through time. First territory that was ruled under bosnian ban was very small.
This is map of evolution of Bosnian state: http://pds4.egloos.com/pds/200706/28/15/d0015015_020639100.jpg
That pinkish color represent the Bosnia as described in 10 century, probably by Constantine VII, who is responsible for first mention of Bosnia.
That should be one central province. Naming it would be difficult, but the early centre of medieval state was in Visoki valley. But we call this today central Bosnia, and there is no specific name in medieval time for this. There are many actually, but all that are specific. They were all always under direct control of bans and kings. Original Bosnia. Actually the region is simply know as Bosnia.
Orange color represent the Bosnia during ban Kulin. He added Usora and Soli to his realm. And so, there is that big problem with original CKII, where Usora is represented as west province, in reallity its closer to Soli province, hence the north part of Bosnia, not the whole west.
You can see in map Župa Usora, that I suggest to be north-east province and north-west to be Donji Kraji. West should be the province of Rama, but more broad and accurate name should be Završje (or Tropolje). If its too much provinces, just merge it with Donji Kraji and Zahumlje. On that link you will see below the east province of Podrinje, which should be east province of Bosnia.
That leave us with south, which is the only accurate province, and that is Zahumlje. Bihać region was under Hungarian/croatian control. These are traditional medieval names for provinces, as Tvrtko and other leaders proclaimed them us theirs. He was by the mercy of God Lord of many lands, Bosnia, and Soli and Usora and the Lower Edges (Donji Kraji) and the Drina (Podrinje) and the Hum (Zahumlje) Lord.
Well, I made this approximate map of all those regions. Any questions... be free to ask.
Well I can tell you what territories bosnian bans and kings gained through time. First territory that was ruled under bosnian ban was very small.
This is map of evolution of Bosnian state: http://pds4.egloos.com/pds/200706/28/15/d0015015_020639100.jpg
That pinkish color represent the Bosnia as described in 10 century, probably by Constantine VII, who is responsible for first mention of Bosnia.
That should be one central province. Naming it would be difficult, but the early centre of medieval state was in Visoki valley. But we call this today central Bosnia, and there is no specific name in medieval time for this. There are many actually, but all that are specific. They were all always under direct control of bans and kings. Original Bosnia. Actually the region is simply know as Bosnia.
Orange color represent the Bosnia during ban Kulin. He added Usora and Soli to his realm. And so, there is that big problem with original CKII, where Usora is represented as west province, in reallity its closer to Soli province, hence the north part of Bosnia, not the whole west.
You can see in map Župa Usora, that I suggest to be north-east province and north-west to be Donji Kraji. West should be the province of Rama, but more broad and accurate name should be Završje (or Tropolje). If its too much provinces, just merge it with Donji Kraji and Zahumlje. On that link you will see below the east province of Podrinje, which should be east province of Bosnia.
That leave us with south, which is the only accurate province, and that is Zahumlje. Bihać region was under Hungarian/croatian control. These are traditional medieval names for provinces, as Tvrtko and other leaders proclaimed them us theirs. He was by the mercy of God Lord of many lands, Bosnia, and Soli and Usora and the Lower Edges (Donji Kraji) and the Drina (Podrinje) and the Hum (Zahumlje) Lord.
Well, I made this approximate map of all those regions. Any questions... be free to ask.
Thank you!! I was really getting stuck with those provinces. Donji Kraj, Visoki and Usora seems like a really good basis for the Banate.
The other "duchies" in the Serb/Bosnian/Montengrian region that I have currently is: Hum/Zahumlje(hence Podrinje and Zahumlje can't be part, also includes Lim(Bijelo polje)), Rashka(made of Rashka, Belgrade and Macva(I will have to balance your layout of Usora with Macva so neither territory will be fully complete) and Dukjla(Zeta, Ragusa and Travunia)
I think Tropolje might be a good option to include aswell, but I have to make further headway with Croatia before decideing on it:unsure:
Actually you should call Bosnia (Visoki) - 'Vrhbosna' which is first mentioned in 1244, which is more appropriate and the capital should be Bobovac, consisting of other towns or baronies such as Visoki, Kresevo, Hvojnica, Sutjeska, Hodidjed and Vrhbosna (Sarajevo).
The Tropolje region should be called 'Zavrsje' or 'Zapadne Strane' but 'Zavrsje' is more appropriate. The capital of Zavrsje was Dlamoc (or Glamoc) which was first mentioned in historical anals in 1078, and the other towns or baronies are Hlivno (Livno), Vesela Straza, etc.
Also there should be 'Rama' province between Bosnia and Zahumlje.
The Tropolje region should be called 'Zavrsje' or 'Zapadne Strane' but 'Zavrsje' is more appropriate. The capital of Zavrsje was Dlamoc (or Glamoc) which was first mentioned in historical anals in 1078, and the other towns or baronies are Hlivno (Livno), Vesela Straza, etc.
Also there should be 'Rama' province between Bosnia and Zahumlje.
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Also maybe Usora should be divided on the east being called Soli and on the west Usora which was usually divided by the river Bosna. If you need any help just let me know, I have alot of maps about medieval Bosnia and Dalmatia. Even nobility should be checked, we should add families like Sankovic, Desisalic, Dinjicic, Hranic, Borovinic, Sijercic, etc.. Also about the castles, towns and bishoprics I can give you that information too. It is time somebody made a proper map for Bosnian medieval kingdom and also to Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and other parts of the former Yugoslavia.
It would be nice if Bosnia had at least 8-10 provinces such as:
Usora
Soli ?
Bosna or Vrhbosna
Rama
Podrinje
Donji Kraji
Zahumlje
Zavrsje
Travunija
and Bihac
For more details check here: http://www.kic-bih.at/Bosna14-15vijek.jpg
It would be nice if Bosnia had at least 8-10 provinces such as:
Usora
Soli ?
Bosna or Vrhbosna
Rama
Podrinje
Donji Kraji
Zahumlje
Zavrsje
Travunija
and Bihac
For more details check here: http://www.kic-bih.at/Bosna14-15vijek.jpg
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8-10 provinces would be to much to have in the banate, currently its a duchy level title, and as eXmAn wrote the original banate wasn't very big. Besides kingdom of Bosnia is outside the timeline of the game and would clash with every other entity in the region if I made it like it was in 1450-1500. I will probably include the kingdom somehow(Titular?) but im not sure how. The question currently is if the banate should have 3 or 4 provinces:unsure:, an alternative route would be if I could make another "duchy" besides the Bosnian banate then the number of provinces might be raised to 6(I have to allow a bit of mobility in the region if I put in that many provinces, in order to refelct how entiteys shifted amd changed hands during the CK2 period(which it seems like it did every few years). So it depends on wether there is a way(that is historical at least plausible) to seperate Usora, Soli, Rama(I thought that the lake was manmade in modern times?)Visoki/Vrhbosna , Donji Kraji and Zavrsje into two "duchies".
The most balanced way would probably be to have a 4 province banate. If I made 6 provinces they would not be able to have more than around two barronies each, or I would brake the balance in the game artificially.
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Which provinces ought Croatia to be made of?
The "duchies" that vanilla has seems okay(at least to a Dane) but what about the provinces? In particular what provinces should the banate of Croatia be made of? In vanilla its Zachlumia(isn't that the same as Zahmujle/Hum?), Senj and Veglia.
I understood what you've said. How about if you create two duchies like Bosnia and Hercegovina (Zahumlje), and maybe the third one would be Bihac, but in order to create Bosnian kingdom you would need to control two duchies. Also Zahumlje (or we could call it Hum or Hercegovina) duchy should consist of Zahumlje and Zavrsje provinces or counties and maybe even Travunija (but that's maybe) and Bosnian duchy should consist of Usora, Podrinje, Bosna or Vrhbosna and Donji Kraji. Like that Bosnian Kingdom would have two duchies with six provinces and that is without Bihac county or duchy. What do you think about this idea?
Also if we have six provinces in Bosnian Kingdome do we still have max. 8 holdings (towns, castles, bishoprics) in each province?
Also if we have six provinces in Bosnian Kingdome do we still have max. 8 holdings (towns, castles, bishoprics) in each province?
That is correct. Zahumlje is Zachlumia, and in fact Hum land, but it was separated in game.
In Kulin's times, the term Bosnia encompassed roughly the lands of Vrhbosna, Usora, Soli (one province), the Donji Kraji and Rama (this also could be one province, just extend the Donji Kraji to the south little), which is approximately geographical Bosnia. Others already included Bosnia as titular kingdom, and the first Bosnian king was proclaimed in 1377, and he took Serbian crown and proclaimed himself King of "Serbs, Bosnia, Pomorje, and the Western lands", so it's not really out of scope, its only out of scope of historical starts in CKII...
Im not insisting on any amount of holdnings, its just my intial feeling of what might have to be done in order to balance things out if I make all the provinces(I have learned the hard way not to make to many provinces, only to scrap half of them later because it would overpower an area...). We will have to take the whole of the Balkans into consideration and in order to do that I will have to make an intial version that can then be corrected(will hopefully have one tomorrow, but without positions so it won't really be very playable but it will give an idea of how it will look like). Its also necessary to weight the combined Balkan area with other regions, no offence to the Balkans but it can't really be made into a bigger powerhouse than northern Italy..... and I can't just keep on pileing provinces onto other areas in order to compensate, because at some point it will hurt the performance of the engine, and no one is going to play a mod, where it takes forever to complete an ingame year. My intial plan is to cap provinces at around a 100 extra compared to vanilla(non counting renamed, relocated ones), it might be 110 but it won't be over a 120.
Zahmulje/Hum will be its own duchy regardless of what happens to the banate
As its stands currently the duchies will intially be:
Hum/Zahmulje: Zahmulje, Podrinje and Lim
Dukjla: Zeta, Travunija and Dubrovnik/Ragusa
Rashka: Rashka, Branicevo, Belgrade and Macva
Bosnia/Visoki: Visoki/Bosna/Vrhbosna, Usora, Tropolje/Zavrjse and Donji Kraji
What potentially should be de jure kingdom of Bosnia and kingdom of Serbia at what point in time can be sorted out later(not exactly the most static area in the world during the CK 2 period.)
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Bosnia vill have its own de jure kingdom then, but will probably only be around the Bosnian banate for most of the game, then the player will have to expand it him/herself.