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the_hdk

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[MOD] Saxon England


Welcome.
Ck2 is out and the game is brilliant. Probably the best Paradox has ever made.
But some things are missing. Especially for those of us who love alternative history.

Well what if the Anglo-Saxon Kings would survive and defeat the Norman and Norse invasion?
For those of us who would love the challenge and to play on as the House of Godwin (or any other Anglo-Saxon Dynasty) I created this mod.
Much of my work was based on the great mod Before the Conquest by Veldmaarschalk for ck1. Big thanks to him for letting me use his data.

Features:
- New Earldom Set-up ver. 0.2



- New Flags for the Saxon Lords and Filled in history Files (Paradox did the work for me mostly, most of the characters are already in the game)





To-Do:
- Finish History files for All the Earldoms
- Finish localization files and culture files
- Any other small changes

Change Log:
Ver 0.2
- Earldom set-up (based on Olaf's)
- New Earldom (Chester)
- Ownership of provs at game start (also based on Olaf's)
- Created new CoA's for all Earldoms and the Kingdom of England
- New Localization names (based on the info in the thread)
- Included Orinsuls changes to Saxon culture (not all)
- Includes parts of knuckey Cornish Mini-Mod
- some minor changes here and there

Download Link:
Version 0.21 made by SirDraco (unofficial and no changelog) Link
Version 0.2 Link
Version 0.1 Link

Install:
Install it by unzipping it in your /ck2/mod/ folder.
Don't forget to select the mod when starting ck2 up.

Credits:
Olaf the Unsure
Orinsul
SirDraco
Maleficus
knuckey
Manse Kim
Kevyinus
Wyvern
the_hdk



All comments are welcome. Just don't be too harsh on me ;)
 
Last edited:

unmerged(436066)

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Not sure if you've done so or not, but be sure to put Eadgar the Aetheling somewhere where he can scheme for the throne. Perhaps give him a nice little title? At any rate, I'll be sure to download this. Thanks!
 

DrFrank

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Nice work, this seems like it could provide for a more interesting England.
 

Veldmaarschalk

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Will you also add Cumbrian, Cornish and Anglo-Danish culture ?
 

Poddster

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I'm no expert, but why is Mercia so high up? According to wiki the upper limit of Mercia was the Ribble and Mersey (modern day Preston nad Manchester). Therefore the county of Lancaster should be in Northumbria, rather than Mercia?. Also, Mercia occupied a much greater area? The inclusion of York and Hereford is strange.

IMO, Hereford should be merged with Merica and York with Northumbria, and it'd be more accurate. Of course, you might not be after accuracy but rather balance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy
 

Diagille

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I think he's basing York off Danelaw as seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:England-878ad.jpg

Either way, I'm not sure why you have Essex separate from Wessex, as Wessex had taken over Essex, Sussex, and Kent by 825. Cornwall is far too big, as even by 802 they were a smallish vassal of Wessex (even before Wessex defeated Mercia):


^^ Also, the western lands you give to Essex in this pretty much always belonged to Wessex.

I guess in summary, Wessex is far smaller than it should be considering its historical power/significance toward the eve of the Norman invasion :p

Thank you for making this mod, by the way. Of all the mods being floated, Saxon England is what I was really looking forward to, and you sure didn't waste time! :)

Edit: these maps might be of help as well:
http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_800ad.jpg
http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_900ad.jpg

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1000/1000_Northwest.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/900/900_Northwest.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/800/800_Northwest.jpg

And if you ever decide to do stuff as far as clergy go:
https://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/ecclesiastical_brit_isles.jpg
 
Last edited:

Maleficus

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Must've gone back a bit too far with the history files, as the guy you're showing as Aethelraed III should in fact be Aethelraed II. Also, in case you haven't done so already, Alfred's (7627) father should be Aethelwulf (33355) and not, as Paradox have put it, Aethelraed (33358) who is in fact his brother.

Can't say I agree with the duchies at all either. They're an improvement over vanilla for sure, but they can still be better ;)

Still, nice work in showing some initiative and getting the ball rolling. Don't suppose you're planning to make any changes to the map at all? I reckon you could squeeze Nottinghamshire, Berkshire, Huntingdonshire and possibly Staffordshire in there, but I haven't got a clue how to do it myself...
 

Aubrielle

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Oo...tantalizing. I'll have to try this. :)
 

the_hdk

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tnx for the info guys. All comments are appreciated.

@ Eadgar
He's still a child in 1066 so no titles for him. But I could add him a claim to the throne.

@ cultures
Yes I want to add cornish and anglo-danish. Don't know about Cumbrian? is that that much different?

@ duchy set-up. I based it on maps I could find, ck1 mod and what paradox did. (mostly wiki info)
If you look at the map from 802, the duchies of Mercia and Northumbria would be WAY too powerful. a duchy with 8 provinces? No a duchy should be between 3 and 4 provs for balance. and 2 is too little.
Or we should add provs. Sadly my map editing skills are zero :p but I bet someone will turn up eventually. than I can incorporate it in the mod :)

with that in mind we should continue the discussion of the duchy set-up and we can edit it. It's still version 0.1 :D

about Alfred, yes I corrected that. he was the 4th son, even remembered that (was was proud I did remember that lol :p)
about Aethelread. I started the count from the 1st Brytenwalda. with Penda etc. Not with the Wessex Kings. I knew most of you wouldn't agree with me on that. But I find that more interesting :p
If majority will be against me on this, i'll edit it :)
 

Orinsul

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By the start of the game, Anglisc was about as much as a unified culture as there could be, so cumbrian wouldnt fit, Especially given how in game culture is a very wide thing. All the germans under one etc, if theyre one then the english and lowland scots who speak languages closer to each other than the various germans are definitely one.
Are you going to do anything about the traits? all the english seemed to have been made out as hollywood villains rather than have the traits tied to any sembalance of reason or history, although maybe the history files give them no traits and the game gives random traits for untraited characters but who knows, i havent looked in the files yet but St-Margaret and the Leofricssons have terrible traits that match up with no history ive ever heard of.

Mercia and Northumbria probably should be over-powered, if not in dejure, as that was the balance of power at the time. The north held in two joined hands and the south in one.
Also i reckon herewald 'wake' ought be a baron in northhampton if youre doing english enchancements as its probably an easy thing and better than randoms.

As to Anglo-Danes, that raises more problems than itd solve, it be better to rename saxon to english or anglisc or something like that, and include Anglo-Danes in it, as we simply dont know who was and who wasnt as in the records they were all called english and in life they all called themselves english. Effectively all in england were culturally Anglo-Danes from both how long the danelaw had been there, how close the two people were to start with and how successfully the danes integrated during their rule.
Basically all the titled by paradox characters have question marks over whether theyd be saxon or anglo-dane if both cultures existed so itd be best to treat them as one culture, as they were in that brief window between knut and conquest. As far as culture stands for in game, they were one culture.

A few months back someone posted a flag of the dragon which matched pretty much with the paradox designed flags, but i now cant find it.
 
Last edited:

Muskeato

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There are plenty of 2 province duchies in the game, no reason not to have them. At the very least I'd give Wessex Winchester (It was a royal town) and Somerset. I'd probably give Mercia the lands of Hereford and have Lancashire to take up the lands of Cumbria and Lancashire.

Re: Cultures - If you really wanted, give Cumbria and Cornwall (county not duchy!) Welsh culture. It's similar to what they were after all (they were all Britons, and the wall in Cornwall is thought to have the same root as Wales does (The Anglo-Saxon suffix wealas, meaning "foreigners") while the word Cumbria stems from the word Cymru, which is what the modern Welsh call themselves in their language). That said, by 1066 Cumbria and been partially settled by Danes.
 
Last edited:

repent

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This looks awesome. I am about as excited as a North Welsh, Norman playing Paradox fan can be.
 

unmerged(436066)

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tnx for the info guys. All comments are appreciated.

@ Eadgar
He's still a child in 1066 so no titles for him. But I could add him a claim to the throne.
I'd recommend putting him in the Scottish court, or perhaps Morcar/Edwin's. Either way, by adding that claim and putting him in a court, you're showing just how tender the Godwinsson grasp on the throne is, especially when the House of Wessex is still kicking :).
 

Orinsul

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I'd recommend putting him in the Scottish court, or perhaps Morcar/Edwin's. Either way, by adding that claim and putting him in a court, you're showing just how tender the Godwinsson grasp on the throne is, especially when the House of Wessex is still kicking :).
Ive put him with Morcar and that seems to work, five years in the north rises both runs through
 

Maleficus

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@ duchy set-up. I based it on maps I could find, ck1 mod and what paradox did. (mostly wiki info)
If you look at the map from 802, the duchies of Mercia and Northumbria would be WAY too powerful. a duchy with 8 provinces? No a duchy should be between 3 and 4 provs for balance. and 2 is too little.

with that in mind we should continue the discussion of the duchy set-up and we can edit it. It's still version 0.1 :D
Well first of all, there's no way Oxford should be part of Essex. In fact, Essex should be part of East Anglia. Here's what I'd suggest personally:

Cornwall + Devon = CORNWALL or DUMNONIA
Somerset + Wiltshire + Dorset + Winchester = WESSEX
Sussex + Surrey + Kent = SUSSEX or KENT (Personally I'd go with Sussex as it's derived from 'Suth Saexe' meaning Southern Saxons)
Gloucester + Worcester + Hereford = HWICCE
Essex + Norfolk + Suffolk = EAST ANGLIA
Middlesex + Oxford + Bedford = MIDDLESEX
Warwick + Leicester + Northampton + Lincoln = MERCIA (Lincoln ought to be in LINDSEY really, but a 1-prov duchy obviously won't work for game balance)
York + Derby + (possibly) Westmorland = YORK
Durham + Northumberland + Cumberland = NORTHUMBRIA
Shrewsbury + Chester + Lancaster = Not really sure of a name or this area. Perhaps WREOCAN SAETE (or perhaps simply LANCASTER)

That's just my suggestion anyway. You'd end up with something like this:

nnml4j.png


Which is based largely on actual historical areas (admittedly my knowledge of the south is far better than that of the north) rather than a jumble based on what people happened to hold at the time of the invasion. It should also be fairly balanced. Obviously it'd make Wessex and Mercia far stronger than Cornwall, but nothing new there ;)



about Alfred, yes I corrected that. he was the 4th son, even remembered that (was was proud I did remember that lol :p)
He was actually the fifth son (and sixth child), but the eldest, Aethelstan, was never king ;)



about Aethelread. I started the count from the 1st Brytenwalda. with Penda etc. Not with the Wessex Kings. I knew most of you wouldn't agree with me on that. But I find that more interesting :p
If majority will be against me on this, i'll edit it :)
I would strongly suggest starting with Aethelraed I (Alfred's brother) for 2 reasons: firstly this will ensure everyone has the correct numbers, and secondly he was the first king of Wessex to be the only English king after the Danes conquered the other 3 kingdoms.
 
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the_hdk

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There are plenty of 2 province duchies in the game, no reason not to have them. At the very least I'd give Wessex Winchester (It was a royal town) and Somerset. I'd probably give Mercia the lands of Hereford and have Lancashire to take up the lands of Cumbria and Lancashire.

Re: Cultures - If you really wanted, give Cumbria and Cornwall (county not duchy!) Welsh culture. It's similar to what they were after all (they were all Britons, and the wall in Cornwall is thought to have the same root as Wales does (The Anglo-Saxon suffix wealas, meaning "foreigners") while the word Cumbria stems from the word Cymru, which is what the modern Welsh call themselves in their language). That said, by 1066 Cumbria and been partially settled by Danes.
thats one of the problem of the game game, the 2 prov Duchies. If they are owned by 2 characters they go back and forth in owner, as you can unsurp them when you 50% of the needed provs.
One way to solve this is to not have 2-prov duchies. Other is changing the requirements to 55% or higher. Also making duchies bigger than 5 provinces is destroying balance guys. There is a reason paradox didnt do that.
This is a duchy set-up not the owner set-up. Morcar and Edwin dp own most of those provinces at game start. the duchy set-up is for the future, so that whenever a generation or 2 later leofricsons decide to go for the throne you can take away some of their land and split it up.

I'd recommend putting him in the Scottish court, or perhaps Morcar/Edwin's. Either way, by adding that claim and putting him in a court, you're showing just how tender the Godwinsson grasp on the throne is, especially when the House of Wessex is still kicking :).
the only way I can think of putting a character in a court is by making him a ward of someone. problem is he will come back to the English court. you can't just put someone in a court anymore.

By the start of the game, Anglisc was about as much as a unified culture as there could be, so cumbrian wouldnt fit, Especially given how in game culture is a very wide thing. All the germans under one etc, if theyre one then the english and lowland scots who speak languages closer to each other than the various germans are definitely one.
Are you going to do anything about the traits? all the english seemed to have been made out as hollywood villains rather than have the traits tied to any sembalance of reason or history, although maybe the history files give them no traits and the game gives random traits for untraited characters but who knows, i havent looked in the files yet but St-Margaret and the Leofricssons have terrible traits that match up with no history ive ever heard of.

Mercia and Northumbria probably should be over-powered, if not in dejure, as that was the balance of power at the time. The north held in two joined hands and the south in one.
Also i reckon herewald 'wake' ought be a baron in northhampton if youre doing english enchancements as its probably an easy thing and better than randoms.

As to Anglo-Danes, that raises more problems than itd solve, it be better to rename saxon to english or anglisc or something like that, and include Anglo-Danes in it, as we simply dont know who was and who wasnt as in the records they were all called english and in life they all called themselves english. Effectively all in england were culturally Anglo-Danes from both how long the danelaw had been there, how close the two people were to start with and how successfully the danes integrated during their rule.
Basically all the titled by paradox characters have question marks over whether theyd be saxon or anglo-dane if both cultures existed so itd be best to treat them as one culture, as they were in that brief window between knut and conquest. As far as culture stands for in game, they were one culture.

A few months back someone posted a flag of the dragon which matched pretty much with the paradox designed flags, but i now cant find it.
flags are easy to make. on cultures. wel yeah I agree. But for me the more cultures the better. More flavor.


------

More general response. About Duchy set-up. Guys don't just post little changes to the duchy set-up. Post the whole set-up. All the provs with all the duchies. So that we can discuss the set-up.
And try to think about Balance! and remember that the duchy set-up is NOT the ruler ownership set-up at game start.

edit: Maleficus got the idea right when I was typing it :p
 

the_hdk

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Well first of all, there's no way Oxford should be part of Essex. In fact, Essex should be part of East Anglia. Here's what I'd suggest personally:

Cornwall + Devon = CORNWALL or DUMNONIA
Somerset + Wiltshire + Dorset + Winchester = WESSEX
Sussex + Surrey + Kent = SUSSEX or KENT (Personally I'd go with Sussex as it's derived from 'Suth Saexe' meaning Southern Saxons)
Gloucester + Worcester + Hereford = HWICCE
Essex + Norfolk + Suffolk = EAST ANGLIA
Middlesex + Oxford + Bedford = MIDDLESEX
Warwick + Leicester + Northampton + Lincoln = MERCIA (Lincoln ought to be in LINDSEY really, but a 1-prov duchy obviously won't work for game balance)
York + Derby + (possibly) Westmorland = YORK
Durham + Northumberland + Cumberland = NORTHUMBRIA
Shrewsbury + Chester + Lancaster = Not really sure of a name or this area. Perhaps WREOCAN SAETE (or perhaps simply LANCASTER)

That's just my suggestion anyway. You'd end up with something like this:



Which is based largely on actual historical areas (admittedly my knowledge of the south is far better than that of the north) rather than a jumble based on what people happened to hold at the time of the invasion. It should also be fairly balanced. Obviously it'd make Wessex and Mercia far stronger than Cornwall, but nothing new there ;)
now thats what I meant. Good set-up. Only thing I do not like is the 2 prov Cornwall, as I explained before 2 prov duchies are a problem. (check my former post)
what do you guys think about the set-up of Mercia, lancaster etc?

He was actually the fifth son (and sixth child), but the eldest, Aethelstan, was never king ;)
uhhh, thats not what I read lol. touche I guess :D


I would strongly suggest starting with Aethelraed I (Alfred's brother) for 2 reasons: firstly this will ensure everyone has the correct numbers, and secondly he was the first king of Wessex to be the only English king after the Danes conquered the other 3 kingdoms.
if more of people agree on this ill do it :)
 

Muskeato

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Well first of all, there's no way Oxford should be part of Essex. In fact, Essex should be part of East Anglia. Here's what I'd suggest personally:

Cornwall + Devon = CORNWALL or DUMNONIA
Somerset + Wiltshire + Dorset + Winchester = WESSEX
Sussex + Surrey + Kent = SUSSEX or KENT (Personally I'd go with Sussex as it's derived from 'Suth Saexe' meaning Southern Saxons)
Gloucester + Worcester + Hereford = HWICCE
Essex + Norfolk + Suffolk = EAST ANGLIA
Middlesex + Oxford + Bedford = MIDDLESEX
Warwick + Leicester + Northampton + Lincoln = MERCIA (Lincoln ought to be in LINDSEY really, but a 1-prov duchy obviously won't work for game balance)
York + Derby + (possibly) Westmorland = YORK
Durham + Northumberland + Cumberland = NORTHUMBRIA
Shrewsbury + Chester + Lancaster = Not really sure of a name or this area. Perhaps WREOCAN SAETE (or perhaps simply LANCASTER)
That sounds pretty good, though I suppose if you don't want two province duchies there are a couple of issues. I'd call it Kent, as that was what the kingdom was known as. The others seem fairly sound.
 

Maleficus

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now thats what I meant. Good set-up. Only thing I do not like is the 2 prov Cornwall, as I explained before 2 prov duchies are a problem.
You could perhaps move Somerset into Cornwall/Dumnonia if you're concerned about balance, but if you're after historical authenticity it should definitely be part of Wessex. I believe the former county town of Somerton was even briefly the capital of Wessex at some point during Alfred's reconquest.
 

Mike6979

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One other thing to consider is historical accuracy; Paradox decided to throw reality to the winds.

Even with Mercia ignoring Harold's call of the Fyrd, Harold outnumbered Hardrada. Against William the numbers were fairly even and William almost lost. It was not a sure run thing.

In my game i already lowered Hardrada to 2x levy and 250 gold, and William to a 5x levy and 500 gold. Instead of 3x and 7x respectively.

Mike