[Mod] Saeculum Obscurum: A Late Antiquity Mod

[unmerged(55197)]

Current state of Gaul (Aquitaine will be fixed, don't worry).

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I did a quick playtest to see what would happen, the Irish Clans went into open warfare in about 1 week, Italy collapsed into Anarchy after a few faction revolts, and Gaul is a mad 5-way warzone.

All going to plan .

Did Odoacer's Kingdom really expand so far north? Weren't the Rugians there along the Danube/Austria?

 

[Zaldax]

Note to self: Fill out history for the Nestorian patriarchs and change name list to reflect that.

Also, so this post isn't totally pointless, SCREENSHOT!

Yeah, he's pretty much screwed! Good thing the Hepthalites will be on autonomous vassals at start, because the only way to survive as the Khwarizmians will be to swear fealty before they crush you!

(Can't figure out why the COA aren't working, but that's kind of low on my priorities at the moment, so I'm letting it slide for now.)

 

[MartMakkie]

As promised, west Germania.

Spoiler

I don't want to be a stuppid, but isn't it more historical to make the Frisians a petty kingdom and allow them to form a propper kingdom once they have gained more land? Because the Franks reffered to them as Dukes but the Briton sources to King (according to Wikipedia) that does sound like a CK2 petty Kingdom to me....

 

[Bad_Haggis]

Looks good so far! Obviously we've still got a lot of work to do, but it's a great start! As I said, I'll be putting up some of my Persia screenshots shortly -- note that I'm running an earlier version than Bad_Haggis, so the religion icons/set-up outside of the areas I'm working on aren't going to be as pretty.

Did the Rome Must Die people tell you their sources for Persia, perchance? I'm finding a lot of things that don't match up with my sources, but are mentioned here and there in other things. Just wondering how historical all of it is, as well as if they have sources I haven't stumbled across yet. I'm going to dig through their thread real quick and take a look.

Cheers!

No I've got no idea where they got their info from.

I'm trying to figure out how to handle the vassal kingdoms of the Byzantine-Persian frontier -- namely, the Ghassanids (Byzantine vassals) and the Lakhmids (Sassanid vassals), as well as some of the territories in the Caucasus. Specifically, there needs to be a way to prevent the Sassanids from revoking titles from the Lakhmids automatically, since there is a religious difference. (Lakhmids are Nestorian Christians, and the Nestorian heresy was encouraged by the Sassanids to weaken the Byzantines.) I suspect crown laws will fix this, but for now I think I might invent an alliance and leave the two kingdoms nominally independent? I suspect that the solution is obvious, and that I'm just being dumb right now. Either way it's still a tricky situation, which merits further thought.

Personally, I'd make them both independent (as they functionally were, at least from my understanding of how the Ghassanids worked) but that's up to you.

2) Anyone have any resources on the Armenian nobility during this time period? I'm specifically looking for information on the Nakharars -- so far I've come up empty.

I can take a look through the various early Byzantine books I have and see if I can piece anything together.

Also, about the Hepthalites:
A) Turns out their primary religion wasn't Buddhism. In fact, some of the Hepthalite rulers actively persecuted buddhists in their realm...so while the religion of some of the border provinces should be buddhist, they aren't. Some sources say that they found fire sacred, suggesting zoroastrianism, but apparently their burial practices didn't match zoroastrian teaching, so that doesn't add up either. Seeing as how they are steppe nomads, and that they also worshipped some sort of sky god, I think the closest match might just be tengri, so that's what I'm going to go with for now.
B) So I've found conflicting sources for the name of the Hepthalite monarch ruling in 476 AD; some say Khingala, while most primary sources I've found say Khush-nawaz or some varient thereof. I'm going with the latter, but if someone can find a concrete answer one way or the other I'd appreciate it!

I think they were Hindu, although I don't know if they would so far west. I've got no idea who was running the Empire though.

Did Odoacer's Kingdom really expand so far north? Weren't the Rugians there along the Danube/Austria?

There were, but the exact date they took it is unclear. Odoacer had to kick them back over the river in 487, but I think he still held it in 476.

"In 487 Odoacer led his army to victory against the Rugians in Noricum, taking their king Feletheus into captivity; when word that Feletheus' son, Fredericus, had returned to his people, Odoacer sent his brother Onoulphus with an army back to Noricum against him. Onoulphus found it necessary to evacuate the remaining Romans and resettled them in Italy. The remaining Rugians fled and took refuge with the Ostrogoths; the abandoned province was settled by the Lombards by 493."

So at some point after 480 the Rugians seem to have settled the area, but been repulsed soon after.

Also, so this post isn't totally pointless, SCREENSHOT!

Very nice .

I don't want to be a stuppid, but isn't it more historical to make the Frisians a petty kingdom and allow them to form a propper kingdom once they have gained more land? Because the Franks reffered to them as Dukes but the Briton sources to King (according to Wikipedia) that does sound like a CK2 petty Kingdom to me....

No problem. I just have him the title because this was pretty much the maximum extent that the Frisians ever really got AFAIK.

 

[Zaldax]

Possibly hindu and independent Arabs (I'll ally them through marriage to their respective factions), gotcha.

Regarding the names, this is what I went with.

(Those are his son and grandson, respectively)

(Also, have you seen the new Host mini-mod? It looks like something we might be able to use.)

 

[Bad_Haggis]

(Also, have you seen the new Host mini-mod? It looks like something we might be able to use.)

Something along those lines could certainly work for the Barbarian migrations, I'll take a look into it.

 

[unmerged(55197)]

Also you've made the franks into one nation. They were still divided, I think, into the Ripuarian and Salian Franks. They were united around the later years of the 5th century by Clovis.

 

[Bad_Haggis]

Also you've made the franks into one nation. They were still divided, I think, into the Ripuarian and Salian Franks. They were united around the later years of the 5th century by Clovis.

Yeah, the various Frankish tribes will be independent (as well as a few Roman Warlords), it's just that you can't really tell who's Frankish if they aren't under the Frankish banner.

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Does anyone know how accurate this map of Spain is?

I didn't realise there was an apparently independent Roman zone (in 476).

 

[ray243]

There were. The Visigoth control of Hispania is tentative at best. You might want to check out Michael Kulikowski's Late Roman Spain and its cities for a much greater study of Spain during this period.

If it is OK with you, I am willingly to help you in researching Spain during this era.

 

[Bad_Haggis]

There were. The Visigoth control of Hispania is tentative at best. You might want to check out Michael Kulikowski's Late Roman Spain and its cities for a much greater study of Spain during this period.

If it is OK with you, I am willingly to help you in researching Spain during this era.

That would be very helpful, even if I could get some important Visigoths who were in the south of the country, or how it was administered.

For instance, is this somewhat suitable for a Ducal Layout of Post-Roman Iberia?

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Gaul is going to be more difficult. This was the Division of Gaul, so there are something I can use from this.

 

[Ixor779]

You could the diocese of France that continued from Roman Gaul. Note some were added at later dates.

Spoiler

 

[Bad_Haggis]

You could the diocese of France that continued from Roman Gaul. Note some were added at later dates.

That'll work too.

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Also, because I am a pleasant person, behold Iberia (0.1)!

 

[Ixor779]

Just blazing through it now eh?

 

[Bad_Haggis]

Just blazing through it now eh?

Blitzing might be the term .

I've got most of the really time consuming parts done, so now I can crack on with getting a first version done.

 

[Zaldax]

Yeah, I'm just trying to make the Middle East playable, so we can get a beta out as soon as possible. (Although I'm doing that for somewhat selfish reasons; I want to work on the updated code, instead of the old, cluttered pre-alpha! XP)

The downside of this is that I'm playing fast-and-loose with the history at the moment, and there won't be much in the way of events and flavor, but like I said I'll be revisiting all of that further down the line as my sources turn up more. All things considered, I'm pretty happy with where we are right now!

 

[Bad_Haggis]

That's not so much of an issue with the Sassanids, I've just integrated the Mazdayasna Zarathushtrish - Zoroastrianism expanded mod, which gives the Sassanids and Zoroastrians more events, decisions, flavour and such.

I'm pretty happy also, I didn't expect it to be working as well as it is currently (no crashes so far, I've playtested it until around 550 so far).

 

[Zaldax]

Really? Excellent -- I was actually thinking about doing that before I sent you my code, so it's a good thing you mentioned it here first!

I'll probably tweak it regardless in the next version; mostly editing localization and the like, to reflect the fact that Zoroastrianism doesn't need to be revived...I'll keep the Persopolis decision, though. It fits with the Sassanid obsession with reviving the Achaemenid Empire. (Expect flavor events and decisions along the lines of Legacy of Rome further down the line, albeit without the tag change.)

 

[Bad_Haggis]

Yeah, the Sassanids were the pretty much the most powerful Empire for quite a while, so they need some extra flavour and stuff.

 

[Zaldax]

So I just found out I'll be going out of town this weekend (as in, I literally just found out), and I don't know when, or if, I'll be able to get internet on my laptop while I'm gone. While I will still be in touch (Smartphones are great, aren't they?), I probably won't be able to send you any files until Sunday at the earliest.

That being said, I know you were planning on getting an unpolished beta out ASAP, so I've pm'd you some of my files. It's an older version, unfortunately (no time to upload the new one), so it only has parts of Persia and the Hepthalites done, but I figured it's better to send you something so you can start to integrate it rather than nothing. Once you've done that, I'll merge my newer stuff (Arabia and the Caucasus, as well as a more complete liege-vassal setup in Persia) with the updated version, and continue working from there. Sound good?

 

[Bad_Haggis]

Yeah, that'll do fine, thanks.