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Nuril

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Well, yes. There weren't heresies in the sense we usually think of them. On the other hand, pagan religion was not unified or formalized, and the pagan heretics are meant to represent this.
The thing is that in the game "Religious differences" means "dislike eachother for their religious differences and would more happily go to war with such 'Heretics'", not "Has a differing opinion on which of the X-Men is the coolest, but both think the X-Men are great and don't claim special revelation on X-Men Canon". It's a hostile modifier, but Polytheists largely believe in the things the other person believes as well. It's a personal preference. :)

What exactly, if anything, is it used for in the mod? Couldn't reduced Moral Authority simply be used as a weakening factor for the faith (unable to enact reforming decisions to modernize it, weaker resolve for Warrior Cults reducing available soldiers in provinces where it's built, worse relations for the ruler - being the High Priest of the kingdom's Ásatrúar - to the Temple Priests, etc.)?
 

Boblof

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The problem is that the non-Cuman pagans *need* warrior cult or they get swallowed up.
They should probably be slowly swallowed up on average, the emphasis being on slowly (historical Lithuania should probably be considered an outlier) without a player to guide them. At least the Holy War mod should keep them alive for longer and holy war CB without warrior cult should atleast allow for Lithuanian/whatever expansion without having them steamroll their neighbours early on.
 

Hundhedning

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The thing is that in the game "Religious differences" means "dislike eachother for their religious differences and would more happily go to war with such 'Heretics'", not "Has a differing opinion on which of the X-Men is the coolest, but both think the X-Men are great and don't claim special revelation on X-Men Canon". It's a hostile modifier, but Polytheists largely believe in the things the other person believes as well. It's a personal preference. :)

What exactly, if anything, is it used for in the mod? Couldn't reduced Moral Authority simply be used as a weakening factor for the faith (unable to enact reforming decisions to modernize it, weaker resolve for Warrior Cults reducing available soldiers in provinces where it's built, worse relations for the ruler - being the High Priest of the kingdom's Ásatrúar - to the Temple Priests, etc.)?
Weeeeelll, I'm not so sure that's true. Did you see that witchburning somewhere in central Africa which took place the other year? The one somebody filmed with their cell phone? Creepy stuff. Anyhow, we'll see.
 

Nuril

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Weeeeelll, I'm not so sure that's true. Did you see that witchburning somewhere in central Africa which took place the other year? The one somebody filmed with their cell phone? Creepy stuff. Anyhow, we'll see.
What do they have to do with Ásatrú? Besides, getting a dislike-modifier for being a man that practices Seiðr as a trait I'm all for, since it was seen as unmanly (the domain of women). But getting one for carving a Valknut unto your blade and giving Óðinn your consent to do as he wills with your life (taking it for his use)? That's a commendable thing to do if you also believe in the Pantheon. :)
 

Nuril

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I'm not sure this is the right place to discuss the finer points of polytheism in general or Asatru in particular. I guess we'd have to go to the off topic forum for that.
Uh, aren't you looking for input on the mod? You put Heresies of a Polytheistic religion in there and I disagree, but if you're telling me not to argue with your decisions then that's fine, I'll just do something different for my own mod.
 

birdboy2000

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Having finally figured out how to code it, I'm experimenting with making warrior cult culture-restricted but leaving holy war on for non-tengri pagans. Will let you know how it goes.
50 years in. Pagans probably a bit stronger relative to real history. Slight loss of pagan territory but mostly a stalemate. Gonna use this for my own games even if you don't feel like doing the same.
 

Best of em all

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werent basicly all pagans required to fight anyway or at least be able to defend themselves? A warriors cult could represent an entire area being "farmed" for soldiers but could have a drawback to balance it back out
 

vyshan

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Some trait ideas for pagans, mostly aimed at Norse.

  • Famous Skald/bard: This character is famous for being able to recite tales and stories of the old ways. give a + maybe to all but martial?
  • Berserker: You are a Berserker, a wild fighter, known for your wild fighting style. perhaps give +4 or 5 to martial skill, but -2 to diplomacy and health.
  • shield-maiden(female only): you are a female fighter dedicated to fighting for your tribe and kingdom. +1 or 2 to martial, + prestige, - health(to repersent that you are in combat)
  • Galdr: You are a practicer of sorcerery. Your insight into magic is quiet valued. + diplomace, learning, peity.
  • nīðing: You have been declared a nīðing, a man without honor, a villain, a crowd. You will be mocked unless you can rectfey this at once... this should give - to prestige and diplomacy.

I hope that helps. I can try and think of some event ideas later as well.
 

Comradebot

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Interesting... I threw my saved game (I've been playing for about 80 years now as a Norse dynasty) in to see how it all works... Maybe it's because Sweden is already super badass, but raiding makes getting gold silly easy. As a strongish Jarl, I can field an army myself that can put a serious beatdown on a lot of the smaller independent realms out there. And, when doing so, I already get a hefty chunk of gold simply for sieging everything in sight. I'd dial down how much gold the loser has to pay you for being raided, as the gold you get for actually putting a beatdown on em' is solid enough.

Of course, wouldn't be so easy without Warrior Cults... with without WCs us heathens would get overrun even faster than we already do.
 

nette001

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Yes, something needs to be done in that department. The most glaring one is "Celibate". I mean, come on. Celibate pagans?
Only reason I could think of is that a character has vowed not to sleep with the other sex (or own if with the homosexual trait) before having been in battle. Could have nice roleplaying opportunities.
 

Hundhedning

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Uh, aren't you looking for input on the mod? You put Heresies of a Polytheistic religion in there and I disagree, but if you're telling me not to argue with your decisions then that's fine, I'll just do something different for my own mod.
Sure, input is welcome. I'm just trying to avoid falling into the old "who's got the best interpretation of religion X" debate. Look, occasionally heretic events pop up for pagans, too. Councilors who are declared heretics then... aren't, because there's no pagan heresy specified in vanilla. Also, you can get "Heretic Stronghold" fire for one of your pagan provinces which then gives a revolt modifier of +10%, but there's no heresy in the province (and I'm thinking that makes it kinda hard for your Lord Spiritual to re-convert it. Besides that (and like I said) there should be some way to model the fractious nature of pagan religion. If not this, then what?
 

Hundhedning

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50 years in. Pagans probably a bit stronger relative to real history. Slight loss of pagan territory but mostly a stalemate. Gonna use this for my own games even if you don't feel like doing the same.
All right, which version? 0.1 or 0.2?
 

Hundhedning

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Some trait ideas for pagans, mostly aimed at Norse.

  • Famous Skald/bard: This character is famous for being able to recite tales and stories of the old ways. give a + maybe to all but martial?
  • Berserker: You are a Berserker, a wild fighter, known for your wild fighting style. perhaps give +4 or 5 to martial skill, but -2 to diplomacy and health.
  • shield-maiden(female only): you are a female fighter dedicated to fighting for your tribe and kingdom. +1 or 2 to martial, + prestige, - health(to repersent that you are in combat)
  • Galdr: You are a practicer of sorcerery. Your insight into magic is quiet valued. + diplomace, learning, peity.
  • nīðing: You have been declared a nīðing, a man without honor, a villain, a crowd. You will be mocked unless you can rectfey this at once... this should give - to prestige and diplomacy.

I hope that helps. I can try and think of some event ideas later as well.
It sure helps, and thank you for that. The problem is that this really is limited to Norse pagans. Finns, balts and tengri might also want their share.
 

Hundhedning

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Interesting... I threw my saved game (I've been playing for about 80 years now as a Norse dynasty) in to see how it all works... Maybe it's because Sweden is already super badass, but raiding makes getting gold silly easy. As a strongish Jarl, I can field an army myself that can put a serious beatdown on a lot of the smaller independent realms out there. And, when doing so, I already get a hefty chunk of gold simply for sieging everything in sight. I'd dial down how much gold the loser has to pay you for being raided, as the gold you get for actually putting a beatdown on em' is solid enough.

Of course, wouldn't be so easy without Warrior Cults... with without WCs us heathens would get overrun even faster than we already do.
Yes, it might have to be toned down for next version.
 

Nuril

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Oh for f... I accidentally closed the damn browser window when checking up on your religion.txt and ended up deleting a very long message detailing what I'd consider a good replacement.. Let's see if I can rewrite it as eloquently. Do note that if something could be phrased better, it probably was, even if I ended up writing more text this time to get all the same stuff in there. :glare:

Sure, input is welcome. I'm just trying to avoid falling into the old "who's got the best interpretation of religion X" debate.
That's inevitable when creating a mod specifically on "How do we best represent Religion X?".

Look, occasionally heretic events pop up for pagans, too. Councilors who are declared heretics then... aren't, because there's no pagan heresy specified in vanilla.
The thing is those aren't necessarily real Heresies for Christians either, since they'll still popup if both you and the accused are Catholics, but then it's an example of the Inquisition being a failure and ending up swallowing and innocent through religious bureaucracy. I'm not saying there could be any, though, it's just that the things currently in there aren't points of conflict (or real). What I'd recommend would be something like:

Have 3 religions (as it is currently), with Ásatrú (norse_pagan) as the default, but with heresies of "Forn siðr" and "Nýi siðr" that represent a push for more traditionalism and modernization respectively. They would be a source of upheaval and conflict throughout society since it'd be a very different political view of the faith (Like the Christian heresies that seek to abolish the Papacy). The "Nýi siðr" would be, in a sense, 'radicals' who seek to do major reform to the faith in order to modernize it to survive in these new times, but "Forn siðr" heretics would seek even less structure than there currently is (disregarding the Hofgoðar (Temple-Priests) of their region and promoting old Household-religion). Both would be threats to the old order.

As for practical results: Forn siðr can't Modernize at all but it's easy to keep Moral Authority high. Ásatrú can modernize it's institutions if Royal Authority is at a decent level, but slower than Nýi siðr and only if the King has the Hofgoðar as his vassal with good relations*, and Moral Authority is relatively steady (though it'd need higher levels for the reforms than Nýi siðr). Nýi siðr would be a more radical reformist faction of the Devout who seek to impose new order on the faith to keep it strong, so they'd have problems keeping Moral Authority high (needs to subdue other Norse-pagan rulers otherwise it steadily decreases), but would have much higher Modernization-speed and 10% less or so on the Moral Authority requirement and a step below Ásatrú on Royal Authority necessary. It'd create much upheaval, increasing revolt-risks, more severe Opinion modifiers in the negative to the other factions of the faith for pushing it through and give them Casus Bellis to restore the status quo Ásatrú faith and so forth. But if you can weather the storm your realm would be much safer from outside conversions, the internal Religious Establishment is stronger and you could go on the offense (only granting Holy Wars to modernized Ásatrú/Nýi siðr, otherwise only allowing it to reclaim de jure territory of their primary Kingdom from other religions who aren't vassals. Should be possible to code.).

Sounds good to me, at least. These threads are good for coming up with ideas to do myself, even if you don't like it, so cheers. :)

* I made the religious leading faction into a Duke-level title in mine, so it could be subject to the King. I think it works better since it doesn't end up at war with Sweden. It also helps during the Swedish Civil War since Erik the Heathen needs another ruler to back him if he's to demand the Throne through the Plot, which the religious friends in the Hofgoðar are willing to do. Historically the Christian King was deposed and the title given to an Ásatrú candidate through election, with a lot of support from the heathen majority who were oppressed. Whether that candidate would be Erik the Heathen/Håkan the Red/Blot-Sven, they'd have the Hofgoðar in their corner. I got a new Flag and some leaders put in place (you can edit the birth/death/gaining-the-title days if you want, my mod starts in year 1000) and so forth, so I'll go ahead and throw them up in a spoiler box.

The Hofgoðar, landed_titles.txt -> Localization -> Suggested Flag -> Religion.txt + Localization -> Leader Histories (I've rewritten all the Norse countries to not use modern names and cultures, so just edit Eastnorse to Swedish).
Code:
d_hofgodar = {
	color={ 198 249 255 }
	color2={ 0 220 220 }
	
	capital = 290 # Uppsala
	
	title = "temple_duke_norse_pagan"
	foa = "POPE_FOA"
	short_name = yes
	location_ruler_title = yes
	
	# Always exists
	landless = yes
	
	# Controls a religion
	controls_religion = norse_pagan
}
d_hofgodar;Hofgoðar;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
temple_duke_norse_pagan;Hofgoði;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
temple_duke_female_norse_pagan;Hofgyðja;;;;;;;;;;;;;x


(Edit: It told me "Invalid file" everywhere, including the uploader here on ParadoxPlaza despite how prominently they use .tga files, so you'd have to make a d_hofgodar.tga file with this..)

Code:
	norse_pagan = {
		graphical_culture = westerngfx

		icon = 5
		color = { 0.7 0.7 0.7 }
		god_names = {
			GOD_THOR GOD_THE_THUNDERER GOD_THE_ALLFATHER GOD_THE_ODIN
		}
		crusade_name = "HOLY_WAR"
		scripture_name = THE_SAGAS
		priests_can_marry = yes
		can_grant_claim = yes
		can_grant_divorce = yes
	}
	nyi_sidr = {
		graphical_culture = westerngfx

		icon = 5
		color = { 0.7 0.8 0.8 }
		parent = norse_pagan
		god_names = {
			GOD_THOR GOD_THE_THUNDERER GOD_THE_ALLFATHER GOD_THE_ODIN
		}
		crusade_name = "HOLY_WAR"
		scripture_name = THE_SAGAS
		priests_can_marry = yes
		can_grant_claim = yes
		can_grant_divorce = yes
		can_call_crusade = yes
	}
	forn_sidr = {
		graphical_culture = westerngfx

		icon = 5
		color = { 0.6 0.6 0.7 }
		parent = norse_pagan
		god_names = {
			GOD_THOR GOD_THE_THUNDERER GOD_THE_ALLFATHER GOD_THE_ODIN
		}
		crusade_name = "HOLY_WAR"
		scripture_name = THE_SAGAS
		priests_can_marry = yes
		can_grant_divorce = yes
	}
norse_pagan;Ásatrú;norse;Nordisch;;Escandinavo;;;;;;;;;x
forn_sidr;Forn siðr;;;;;;;;;;;;;x
nyi_sidr;Nýi siðr;;;;;;;;;;;;;x

Should probably add in a different colour-tinted version of the Ásatrú Valknut currently used as the default for the heresies, to make it easily distinguishable?

Code:
PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS = {
	name="Sveinbjörn"
	martial=4
	diplomacy=6
	intrigue=6
	stewardship=6
	learning=6
	religion="norse_pagan"
	culture="eastnorse"
	add_trait="diligent"
	add_trait="poet"
	add_trait="ambitious"
	add_trait="scholarly_theologian"
	980.7.4={
		birth="980.7.4"
	}
	1029.12.23={
		death="1029.12.23"
	}
}

PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS = {
	name="Jörmungandr Yngvi"
	martial=5
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=4
	stewardship=6
	learning=5
	religion="norse_pagan"
	culture="eastnorse"
	add_trait="temperate"
	add_trait="scholar"
	add_trait="content"
	add_trait="martial_cleric"
	1006.3.8={
		birth="1006.3.8"
	}
	1064.8.10={
		death="1064.8.10"
	}
}

PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS = {
	name="Hildemar Örn"
	martial=4
	diplomacy=6
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=6
	learning=5
	religion="norse_pagan"
	culture="eastnorse"
	add_trait="diligent"
	add_trait="mystic"
	add_trait="kind"
	add_trait="zealous"
	add_trait="scholarly_theologian"
	1041.4.1={
		birth="1041.4.1"
	}
	1089.5.16={
		death="1089.5.16"
	}
}
\history\titles\d_hofgodar.txt + b_uppsala.txt
Code:
1000.1.1=
{
	liege="k_sweden"
	holder=PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS
}

1029.12.23=
{
	holder=PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS
}

1064.8.10=
{
	holder=PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS
}

#######################################

1000.1.1=
{
	liege="c_uppland"
	holder=PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS
}

1029.12.23=
{
	holder=PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS
}

1064.8.10=
{
	holder=PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS
}
Yes, they're references to modern times. Besides, something feels wrong about having an explicit traitor as the leader! :p

PUT_IN_NEW_NUMBERS is because the ones originally there are ones reserved for Terra Normannorum characters.

Also, you can get "Heretic Stronghold" fire for one of your pagan provinces which then gives a revolt modifier of +10%, but there's no heresy in the province (and I'm thinking that makes it kinda hard for your Lord Spiritual to re-convert it. Besides that (and like I said) there should be some way to model the fractious nature of pagan religion. If not this, then what?
See the above. It'd be incorporated into the conflict on reforming the faith (as many indigenous religions have done in their last gasp of authority before Christianity entrenches itself), so if the province is filled with Reformists/Traditionalists then it'd be more volatile from either a Status Quo Ásatrú persepective or from a "Traditionalist Vs. Reformist"-perspective. Besides, has anyone ever actually worshiped the Hrímþursar (Frost Giants)? Seems more like all those scare-stories about "Satanist" groups in America than something you'd find in Ásatrú, in the Hollywood-sense and not LaVeyan, but when investigated by the Police it's always either an urban legend or it's an extremist Christian group whose theology neighbouring Christians think must be "of the Devil".


(EDIT: I'd also recommend not using any special characters (ð þ å ä ö etc.) inside the coding that aren't readily available on all keyboards. No need to risk something getting screwy for something that's only internal workings anyway. It's easy to keep in mind that even if it should be a þ you'll just write it as "th" in the code. Also not everyone has Scandinavian keyboards or can switch character-sets easily. Constantly copy-pasting those chars slows things down. :) )
 
Last edited:

vyshan

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It sure helps, and thank you for that. The problem is that this really is limited to Norse pagans. Finns, balts and tengri might also want their share.
Yea, unfortunatly I do not know as much on the other faiths as I do the Norse, but I can see what wikipedia has. If they have similar words, it might be good to use a generic word. for example 'witch' instead of Galdr, but shall see what the great wiki has to say :)