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Ols

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actually, if sauron were to "win" up to lindon, it would be holding to lore that there needs to be an actual intervention, not 5 nerfbatted wizards, and given Saurons history, it's not inconceivable that the Noldor/Sindar of Aman would come take him apart, after all the Feanorean Invasion was only outlawed afairc because Men hadn't yet woken, but such an event would need to be preceeded by Cirdan or some sailing west... an event chain to retake all of Middle Earth from Sauron, that's a solid week of scripting.

Yeah, and quite frankly I don't empathise with the argument "that's not in X's character to do", because it never happened. As far as I see it, Eru Illuvatar had everything under control and had no need to intervene more than casting Gandalf back into the world and pushing Gollum over the edge of Mount Doom's precipice (because nobody can willingly destroy the One Ring, anyway). Having someone contact Aman and then having Aman send ship after ship down into Middle Earth is possible, and doesn't need to be exactly within the character of everyone involved. In my alternate Middle Earth where Mordor rules to Lindon, Radagast and Saruman are dead, so why would they rely on the Istari, anyway?

The most overt thing Eru did was cause Gollum to fall to his death with the ring - this is why I mentioned him opening the ground up under Sauron. Eru could cause circumstances to conspire so perfectly that Sauron effectively ends up dying in an accident just before Lindon falls, his armies scattering to the winds as Sauron and his Ring are removed from the world. Eru had not set up the world as he wanted it - Arda is still marred in the Third and Fourth ages, and in an alternate Arda, Eru may yet have a different plan and end up doing something drastic. The only ground changing thing would be for the Dagor Dagorath to come early, which would be a sensible thing should Sauron conquer the known world. What else could conceivably occur when all of Arda is completely ruined and conformed to Melkor's vision?
 

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Though that also begs to question just what Melkor's vision exactly was, he wasnt exactly a evil god, so to speak, but rather thought himself equal to Eru. Essentially its the whole Lucifer vs God thing in fantasy form, which implies that Melkor wasnt exactly evil by design, arrogant, powerful, but not "evil", he wasnt the devil nor was he designed to be. And even then, Eru must have designed for this to happen just the same, perhaps the reason for Melkor to exist was to bring beings into the world that Eru could not concieve of, a different state of mind, of thinking. Eru didnt design the Dragons, at least thats the popular opinion because the Valar did not know about them, the Maiar did not know, nobody knew what creature Melkor could have possibly twisted into dragons, since according to the lore he couldnt create, yet there is no definite baseline for where dragons came from, which does imply that perhaps Melkor did manage to create life on his own, perhaps by using the silmaril. Although i wonder whether Eru actually "pushed" Gollum into the lava, or whether he merely created the specific circumstance where gollum could slip and fall, rather than actually cause it. Could even have been one of the valar assisting, Eru doesnt need to do everything after all, had Eru wanted he could have made Isildur fall just as well for what little importance the ring was after he was murdered.

So again the whole "all powerful god" thing kinda falls flat since, if Eru intervenes even indirectly, he had ample opportunity before, he could have made it so the ring could never be found. The only reason that the Valar might strike back if Sauron actually won is because if he wins, it would undo Eru's plan, and while he might not send the valar themselves, he might just give the elves leave to take care of Sauron. After all even after the several kinslayings and the whole leaving of Aman, he did accept some of the Noldor back, if not the Sons of Feanor directly perhaps. Hell there's even the possibility that Tom Bombadil is actually Eru, which might explain the whole "the ring is not important to him" because, it literally wouldnt be. There's alot of possibilities even within the lore as it is considered canon for many divergent paths to occur.
 

gmellos

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Though that also begs to question just what Melkor's vision exactly was, he wasnt exactly a evil god, so to speak, but rather thought himself equal to Eru. Essentially its the whole Lucifer vs God thing in fantasy form, which implies that Melkor wasnt exactly evil by design, arrogant, powerful, but not "evil", he wasnt the devil nor was he designed to be. And even then, Eru must have designed for this to happen just the same, perhaps the reason for Melkor to exist was to bring beings into the world that Eru could not concieve of, a different state of mind, of thinking. Eru didnt design the Dragons, at least thats the popular opinion because the Valar did not know about them, the Maiar did not know, nobody knew what creature Melkor could have possibly twisted into dragons, since according to the lore he couldnt create, yet there is no definite baseline for where dragons came from, which does imply that perhaps Melkor did manage to create life on his own, perhaps by using the silmaril. Although i wonder whether Eru actually "pushed" Gollum into the lava, or whether he merely created the specific circumstance where gollum could slip and fall, rather than actually cause it. Could even have been one of the valar assisting, Eru doesnt need to do everything after all, had Eru wanted he could have made Isildur fall just as well for what little importance the ring was after he was murdered.

So again the whole "all powerful god" thing kinda falls flat since, if Eru intervenes even indirectly, he had ample opportunity before, he could have made it so the ring could never be found. The only reason that the Valar might strike back if Sauron actually won is because if he wins, it would undo Eru's plan, and while he might not send the valar themselves, he might just give the elves leave to take care of Sauron. After all even after the several kinslayings and the whole leaving of Aman, he did accept some of the Noldor back, if not the Sons of Feanor directly perhaps. Hell there's even the possibility that Tom Bombadil is actually Eru, which might explain the whole "the ring is not important to him" because, it literally wouldnt be. There's alot of possibilities even within the lore as it is considered canon for many divergent paths to occur.

I think the Eagles were the base for the Dragons? Remember the Eagles in the 1st Age were HUGE! Easily 4 times the size of the Eagles in the late 3rd Age.
 

TMSaxon

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I like the idea of an invasion from the Valinor, most likely led by the Noldor and Sindar who have returned/never left (who have ample reason to despise Sauron), but my understanding of the Dagor Dagorath is that it would occur when Morgoth breaks the Door of Night. Even if Sauron managed to conquer all of Middle Earth, I doubt that he would have the power to do such a thing. However, Eru appears to like to work through less dramatic, and far less direct, agents then causing Sauron to fall into the centre of Arda (which I'm not certain would actually harm him that much, with his abilities with fire).
Instead of such a dramatic occurrence, could there not be an event chain, if Sauron is basically breaking down the doors of Mithlond/laying siege to Rivendell (again) that twists of fate happen- for example, if the Elves (who I'm assuming would probably be the only ones lest at this point, maybe the limping remnants of the Dunedain) are fighting an impossible battle, there is suddenly a morale boost, enabling said Elves to win the battle. Perhaps other things could also occur, such as the remnants of the Dunedain/Rohirrim/Beornings/Bardings/Dwarves make their way to Rivendell/Mithlond, basically giving a free event army.
 

Galaahd

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A minor thing, but Boromir should be dark haired as described in the books, instead of looking like Sean Bean!
 

Ols

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You're basically saying that Sauron would be railroaded to lose when he reaches Rivendell (which is too soon imo, because he'd still be far from Lindon. Whatever the solution, I still think Sauron should be able to defeat whatever comes at him, even if it's really really hard. If he was in a position that, in four Ages after his final victory, Morgoth would break down the Door of Night and basically turn up unopposed to Middle Earth, it stands to reason that somebody would stop him. In a way, it's akin to being trapped between a rock and a hard place in that it'd be boring for Sauron to rule unopposed and undefeated after his victory in Middle Earth, but boring for there to be an intervention that utterly defeats him, possibly caused by Eru.

I assumed that Mount Doom was just one of the most direct links to Arda's mantle, so it's not neccessarily the fires of Mount Doom that are needed to destroy the ring, just the extreme heat of Arda's Mantle. If Eru opened up a new volcano amidst Lindon or Arnor, it would perform the exact same role of dissolving the ring off Sauron's finger and then killing Sauron as a result, as far as I can imagine. Maybe I've misread the books, but that's at least the impression I got - that Mount Doom itself isn't enchanted, just really really hot.
 

Ols

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I think the Balrogs are corrupted Maiar

They probably are, though I wonder why they're so much weaker than Sauron, himself a Maiar. I don't think Eagles are Maiar, though, they're just a creation of the Valar Manwë, imbued with life by Eru, made for a specific role, much like Ents were made by Yavanna to defend Huorns.

I'm also dubious that Morgoth got his hands on the Flame Imperishable to make Dragons. It's more likely in my opinion that he twisted them from some other sentient being, though I'm unsure what being that would be. If Morgoth had the Flame Imperishable, I think he'd have made many more corrupted things than just Dragons. On the topic of Morgoth's "evil" - I'd say it's derived from his ignorance. Morgoth is aware more than any other Valar of multiple facets of Eru's will, and can utilise everything Eru can only in an imperfect way, not truly understanding everything's role. He is evil though, because Evil in Arda revolves around Morgoth's will - it'd be called something else if there were another demiurge.
 

keynes2.0

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If Sauron reigned completely supreme in middle earth, Manwe could just send a group of Maiar with less limited power and a more straightforward mission to go and kill Sauron and imprison him somewhere that he couldn't escape until the door of night falls. It's fine with Eru's plan if Sauron's empire were to survive and reign supreme so long as a Maiar with such power isn't running the show. Manwe just needs to make sure that Middle Earth remains a mixture of both good and evil. If a Mordor ruled by a Melkor worshiping man or other mortal creature rules the world there would still be plenty of good people living inside the empire. And most likely the empire would fracture giving a darker mixture then in the canonical 4th age but a mixture all the same.
 

Nikephoros II

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They probably are, though I wonder why they're so much weaker than Sauron, himself a Maiar.

The Maiar are of varying power. Sauron was pretty strong, even for a Maia.

I'm also dubious that Morgoth got his hands on the Flame Imperishable to make Dragons. It's more likely in my opinion that he twisted them from some other sentient being, though I'm unsure what being that would be. If Morgoth had the Flame Imperishable, I think he'd have made many more corrupted things than just Dragons.

My personal guess is that Glaurung (Most probably a Maia) took a certain form.
 

TheLunarwolf

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As far as I recall, Maiar power ratings go, from most powerful to less.

Eonwë
Gothmog
Melian
Thu/Mairon/Sauron
Gandalf/Olorín

This as far as i can tell from the books should be pretty accurate, Eonwë is the Herald of Manwë/Captain-General of Aman with Gothmog being his Melkorian Counterpart.

Melian, well the fact the Doriath stood for aslong as it did speaks for itself as to her power, and lets not forget, a mere spark of her essence diluted over 30 odd generation created the Dead-Men of Dunharrow, and at over 70 generations dilution had enough power to control them still.

Gandalf is abit tricky to place given that he's been rather several nerfbatted, otherwise i believe the list to be accurate.
 

keynes2.0

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The event to clear Sauromans spell from Theodan checks for the king title, not for the character ID, which is somewhat amusing if you usurp the kingdom and dont have a son.
 

keynes2.0

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The events to check for half elf and half orc dont have a condition if neither parent is fully or partly of those races. As a result a human child will keep getting those events every monthly event cycle until they hit 2 years of age.
 

Blood Royal

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The events to check for half elf and half orc dont have a condition if neither parent is fully or partly of those races. As a result a human child will keep getting those events every monthly event cycle until they hit 2 years of age.

Well spotted, fixed for the next update. Why don't you just join the team and help us with these fixes and we'll have an on-going discussion about the colonisation issue :)

It can certainly need some work, perhaps we just talked past each other on what you meant. My impression from your files was that when you wrote:

Code:
	option = {
			any_realm_province = {
				limit = { 
				religion = religion_wilderness
				OR = {
					de_jure_liege_or_above = k_arthedain
					de_jure_liege_or_above = k_forlindon
				}
				}
			
			culture = culture_arnorian
			religion = religion_dunedain
			}

then anyone colonising Arthedain or Forlindon, would get an Arnorian cultured province. To me this is "railroading" the player/unduly restricting player choice, since it makes it impossible for example for Lindon conquer Arthedainian provinces and colonising with Sindar. Likewise a dwarf expanding into those lands would find himself with Arnorian subjects. That's why I said this was not what we were going for; it should be possible to colonize the wilderness as any race/culture, and get subjects of your own kind. The way around this would be to make a separate colonisation decision triggering a unique event for each race, and every region, but this would be a pretty huge undertaking. If undertaken however, and with the use of character flags (for example Sauron choosing via decision to colonize Gondor with men, and not orcs, and Gondor for example choosing to colonise Ithilien with Gondorians (at a higher cost) or Gondorian_Middlemen (at lower cost) would of course be ideal. Also in the next build when Legolas gets Ithilien, it would be nice if his provinces turned into Sindar, but just with long-lasting province modifiers to reflect that in fact while it is "Sindar territory", there are so few at first that they hardly give any levies or income (-90% penalty perhaps for recently colonized provinces, which you can then remove via a 200 gold cost?).

I was also interested in the Duchy-by-duchy wilderness CB costing a lot of money and then getting the culture change immediately with province modifier penalties and cool-down periods, however. That may indeed be a better and "cleaner" system than we have now, and also feel more fulfilling from a gameplay perspective than just a massive quick land-grab like is possible now (and where a noble of Dol Amroth given lands in Arthedain colonizes with Gondorians; he should be colonising with Arnorians instead, like indeed your system takes into account).

Basic point is: If you can make an overhaul wherein

1) It is possible in game-mechanics to colonize any wilderness with your own race like you currently can, within reason of course - for example a Gondorian/Arnorian ruler colonising in the lands around Dunland could very well get Dunlending subjects, that would just be realistic
2) You can give lands to a courtier/vassal of another culture, and he will colonize with that culture (as is currently the case)
3) There are dangers/costs/province modifier penalties associated with this colonisation, but the culture does change immediately when you conquer it

then I think we'd all be very happy to see that. If customisation options were available via decisions and character flags for the colonising ruler, then even better!

Now as for the discussion re: Sauron and the endgame... I think generally Tolkien would be a little more subtle than "meeting force with force". I'd prefer to see events wherein "evil turns upon itself", so that if Sauron does indeed become the Dark Lord of most of the known world, then possibly there would be a massive civil war between the orcs and the evil men under his allegiance. This combined with an uprising of the "good/neutral" men under his command, like the Dunlendings/Bree-folk, Druwaithing, etc. Basically a 3-way civil war or something like that, rather than an external invasion from Valinor.
 
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