I could understand a religion based on Lu Bu given the circumstances, but one based around the Yellow Turbans is a little more difficult to swallow unless they fled persecution instead of rebelling.
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I could understand a religion based on Lu Bu given the circumstances, but one based around the Yellow Turbans is a little more difficult to swallow unless they fled persecution instead of rebelling.
It's hard to find a concrete answer on this with all the threads, so I'll ask here:
If I'm using the SVN version of LI, what game version of CK2 should I be running?
Additionally, what is the compatibility of BLC and the SVN version?
If I'm using the SVN version of LI, what game version of CK2 should I be running?
Additionally, what is the compatibility of BLC and the SVN version?
SVN is for patch 2.1.6.
BLC is out of date. DR will have to tell us how close it is to being fully compatible with 2.1.6.
BLC is out of date. DR will have to tell us how close it is to being fully compatible with 2.1.6.
As soon as I wrap up my other areas of work in LI. To be honest, I'm not updating BLC because I'm not using it myself (having to change the files for tests every now and then gets very tiresome), but I'll try to have something done by this weekend.
That is what happened, more or less. Rather than face certain death at the hands of repression, they successfully fled west to Loulan.
Wait, is Daojiao standard religious Daoism or it's Zhan Jue's specific sect/branch/teachings, "The way of peace"?
Now that I think of it, Cofucianism/Daoism DOES really need a "branching" system like vanilla's Hinduism. The Chinese philosophies are anything but monolithic in their content.
What is the favored son honorary decision supposed to do besides give the person +0.25 prestige?
Which fits in well with Lux's philosophy of 'absolutely anything significant ever survived by any means necessary in some form or another'.
Daojiao is Taoism. tao_reformed is Zhang Jue's "Way of Supreme Peace".
Shouldn't the Way of Peace be a heresy, not a reformed version of the faith? It introduced a lot of non-dualistic principles into the faith, including the removal of the Emperor as being the person granted the Mandate of Heaven.
Unrelated: Someone should perhaps take care of some cultural specific title localisations. Too many Saxon and Pagan Lord Mayors, too many Vandal Magistrates, etc.
For instance, a nice title for republican Germanic people with relative Roman influence would be "Ferst". The German "Fürst" (prince) and the English "First" share the same root: the First (the same as Prince, Princeps, roughtly "primary" or "first one").
Another interesting one is the long series of Latin, Greek or Romance words used to describe the leader of a city council, from Syndic to Consul through Podestà (Potestas or Potestatus), Councillor, First Capitular, Juratus in Chief, Ratmeister, Burgomeister, Prince, Dux or Dogo, or even Paciarium, "man or judge of peace", which was quite common in Aragon and Catalonia in the Romance form Paer or Pacier.
I'll prepare something when I'm done with the Iberian genealogies.
For instance, a nice title for republican Germanic people with relative Roman influence would be "Ferst". The German "Fürst" (prince) and the English "First" share the same root: the First (the same as Prince, Princeps, roughtly "primary" or "first one").
Another interesting one is the long series of Latin, Greek or Romance words used to describe the leader of a city council, from Syndic to Consul through Podestà (Potestas or Potestatus), Councillor, First Capitular, Juratus in Chief, Ratmeister, Burgomeister, Prince, Dux or Dogo, or even Paciarium, "man or judge of peace", which was quite common in Aragon and Catalonia in the Romance form Paer or Pacier.
I'll prepare something when I'm done with the Iberian genealogies.
I remember starting on that a while ago by adding some Gothic title localisations... (I gave them to the Vandals as well since their language is not very well documented) here they are if you want to suggest any changes:
Code:
kingdom_of_visigothic;Thiudinassus of;;;;;;;;;;;x
empire_of_visigothic;Reiki;;;;;;;;;;;x
king_visigothic;Thiudans;;;;;;;;;;;x
emperor_visigothic;Kaisar;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_barony_of_visigothic;Baurgs of;;;;;;;;;;;x
duke_visigothic;Frauja;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_chancellor_visigothic;Waurdei;;;;;;;;;;;x
duchy_of_visigothic;Fraujinassus of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_baron_visigothic;Garda-waldands;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_marshal_visigothic;Ana-biudanier;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_spymaster_visigothic;Laugniber;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_treasurer_visigothic;Gagga;;;;;;;;;;;x
county_of_visigothic;Bairgahei of;;;;;;;;;;;x
count_visigothic;Maists;;;;;;;;;;;xNo need to localise every single title, right? Kingdoms and the like, as long as they're recognisable in English, are fine. And since, I believe, we kind of established that these Visigoths speak some form of heavily germanised Romance language (as I said before, I can't imagine these or IRL visigoths not doing so) like some variant of Occitan, those original Gothic titles may fit the Vandals or the Ostrogoths well, but not these Visigoths.
For instance, an archaising list of Visigothic titles:
Code:
city_barony_of_visigothic;Council of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_county_of_visigothic;Confratria of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_duchy_of_visigothic;Merinitas of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_kingdom_of_visigothic;Universitas of;;;;;;;;;;;x
duke_visigothic;Dux;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_chancellor_visigothic;Maiordomus;;;;;;;;;;;x
duchy_of_visigothic;Diocese of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_baron_visigothic;Iudex;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_marshal_visigothic;Seneschal;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_spymaster_visigothic;Laugniber;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_treasurer_visigothic;Thesaurarius;;;;;;;;;;;xA mix of old traditional Casillian and Latin titles. Many of the Castillian ones have a disctinct Medieval or Germanic origin. Other concept like Retinue or Company, not to use the German word Gefolge, could be called the "Comitantes".
Aren't the Romano-Goths the ones that would speak the germanised Romance language though? There's a mystery here we have to unravel... How Romanized are the Vesi and how Gothic are the Gothicus?
Our Visigoths are clearly not the IRL ones... since IRL they didn't have enough population to colonise as much as LI's ones have and started to slowly dissolve amongst the Hispano-Romans and further contributing into the "Castillian" melting pot... and since they were kept by Shaytana as belonging to the Central Germanic group rather than the Latin one, like the Gothicus do, we can assume they are more Germanic than Roman and that they aren't some kind of melting pot.... it's really brain-twisting
Anyway, since one of the unspoken rules of LI is that somehow magically most cultures maintained a reasonable amount of cultural identity (big examples here are the Galatians or the Lusitanians which are still in the Celtic culture group despite being surrounded by other bigger culture groups), I chose to add Gothic titles with some Roman loan words like "Reiki" or "Kaisar".
This is subject to change though, as everything.
Our Visigoths are clearly not the IRL ones... since IRL they didn't have enough population to colonise as much as LI's ones have and started to slowly dissolve amongst the Hispano-Romans and further contributing into the "Castillian" melting pot... and since they were kept by Shaytana as belonging to the Central Germanic group rather than the Latin one, like the Gothicus do, we can assume they are more Germanic than Roman and that they aren't some kind of melting pot.... it's really brain-twisting
Anyway, since one of the unspoken rules of LI is that somehow magically most cultures maintained a reasonable amount of cultural identity (big examples here are the Galatians or the Lusitanians which are still in the Celtic culture group despite being surrounded by other bigger culture groups), I chose to add Gothic titles with some Roman loan words like "Reiki" or "Kaisar".
This is subject to change though, as everything.
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Considering precisely that places with relatively low Roman density but later populated by distinctly Germanic peoples like the Pyrinees, Cantabria or Vasconia ended up speaking variants of Occitan, I only concluded that it was realistic to consider Romanogoths the ones that almost were Romans in every sense, and the Visigoths as the ones that retained more Germanic ascent. In my book, that meant Romanogoths=Romans with a twist, and Visigoths=Iberian Romance speakers.
Our Vesi were very romanised right from the start, it seems, just like IRL Visigoths. They are the Germanic people that spent more time within the Roman Empire, and given that the concept "Visigoths" isn't even an "ethnically genetic" term anymore in the Vth Century (Goth meaning, broadly, anyone who goes and joins the Goths or serves in the army under Alaric), I'd even go as far as saying that IRL Visigoths were not even Germanic per se, only the myth of their origin made them Germanic and Visigothis. Theodoric the Great went to great lenghts to make people believe his daughter Amalasuntha was marrying the last of the Amaling line of Gothic kings, but that was probably forgery, in a time where the Gothic language was getting lost among the Ostrogoths and when there's no record (that I know of) of Gothic being spoken among the Visigothic aristocracy.
Dumézil's latest works are precisely about the identity of Germanic cultures as, mostly, a Roman construct, or that it appeared after their contact with Rome. Another revealing aspect: the Late Roman custom of giving Germanic names to the Roman children destined for the military, while those who went to the Church or the Court would get Roman names. Anyway, I digress.
Our Visigoths are clearly not the IRL ones... since IRL they didn't have enough population to colonise as much as LI's ones have and started to slowly dissolve amongst the Hispano-Romans and further contributing into the "Castillian" melting pot... and since they were kept by Shaytana as belonging to the Central Germanic group rather than the Latin one, like the Gothicus do, we can assume they are more Germanic than Roman and that they aren't some kind of melting pot.... it's really brain-twisting
Anyway, since one of the unspoken rules of LI is that somehow magically most cultures maintained a reasonable amount of cultural identity (big examples here are the Galatians or the Lusitanians which are still in the Celtic culture group despite being surrounded by other bigger culture groups), I chose to add Gothic titles with some Roman loan words like "Reiki" or "Kaisar".
This is subject to change though, as everything.
I see.
We can work it until we get some kind of compromise. I just don't think it's remotely realistic to have Germanic speakers in a place so Romanised as Spain. The Vandals speaking some Vandal dialect is already a very long shot, since the Baetica was precisely the most heavily romanised place in the West aside from Italy and the Narbonense coastline, but I concede there, since who the heck knows what would the Vandals have done? But as far as the Visigoths are concerned, I find hard to believe, even in LI's conditions, that the Visigoths still speak Gothic. But they can be more heavily germanised than what I imagined. It can be fun to latinise Germanic titles and the like
I also think that, for gameplay reasons, Visigothic should be brought to the Latin group, since they're not supposed to be so much different from Romanogoths or even other Latin speakers in the area like Occitans, Castillians or Catalans (languages first developed under a specifically Gothic-Romance culture, by the way). But I won't ask for it, since it's Shaytana's work.
***
What about this?
(By the way, what's the source for these titles? I'm curious as to whether we can cook more of them)
Code:
city_county_of_visigothic;Confratria of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_duchy_of_visigothic;Merinitat of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_kingdom_of_visigothic;Universitas of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_barony_of_visigothic;Burg of;;;;;;;;;;;x
duke_visigothic;Fraus;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_chancellor_visigothic;Gardiadoms;;;;;;;;;;;x ##Waurdes Domus
duchy_of_visigothic;Frausat of;;;;;;;;;;;x
city_baron_visigothic;Gardawal;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_marshal_visigothic;Abudaner;;;;;;;;;;;x ## Also Dapipher, another Germanic title with military connotations.
job_spymaster_visigothic;Lanniber;;;;;;;;;;;x
job_treasurer_visigothic;Thesauraris;;;;;;;;;;;x
county_of_visigothic;Comitat of;;;;;;;;;;;x
count_visigothic;Coms;;;;;;;;;;;xWhat do you think?
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Technically yes (though Buddhism was already gaining popularity in China by the time of Zhang Jue so it's possible that the repressors were not Taoists), but since tao is a small religion in-game, we can't really give it a heresy. The way it's kinda supposed to work is Zhang's followers were (unorthodox) Taoists, and presuming they survive long enough to reform, they make their unorthodoxy an actual religion.
We can work it until we get some kind of compromise. I just don't think it's remotely realistic to have Germanic speakers in a place so Romanised as Spain. The Vandals speaking some Vandal dialect is already a very long shot, since the Baetica was precisely the most heavily romanised place in the West aside from Italy and the Narbonense coastline, but I concede there, since who the heck knows what would the Vandals have done? But as far as the Visigoths are concerned, I find hard to believe, even in LI's conditions, that the Visigoths still speak Gothic. But they can be more heavily germanised than what I imagined. It can be fun to latinise Germanic titles and the like
I also think that, for gameplay reasons, Visigothic should be brought to the Latin group, since they're not supposed to be so much different from Romanogoths or even other Latin speakers in the area like Occitans, Castillians or Catalans (languages first developed under a specifically Gothic-Romance culture, by the way). But I won't ask for it, since it's Shaytana's work.
It would make life a lot easier if we assumed the Visigoths and Vandals spoke Latin. Then we wouldn't need to decipher extinct languages. However, I have to disagree about the group change. Language isn't the only factor in culture; if they lost their cultural heritage simply by adopting the language of the Romans... well, there'd be no difference between them and the Romano-Goths, since the Romano-Goths are indeed essentially Goths who've been assimilated by the Romans, with only shreds of their former heritage left. Most of the Arian congregation is of Germanic stock as well; it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that some Germanic superstition and practices have wheedled their way into Arian doctrine (or at least local practice in those places).
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Actually, Dumézil also believes that at some point it was assumed that Goth was equivalent with Arian, and thus assumptions were made giving certain Goths Arian religion, even if it wasn't clear, and giving Arians Gothic cultural status, even if they may have not been of Gothic stock at all.
I see your point about the group change, yes. I'm not saying they are all Romans, I'm saying that just like in Vanilla we have Portuguese, Aragonese, Castillian and Catalan, all quite subtle variations of local vulgar Latin in 1066, we can also have different grades or kinds of Romance language. So yes, let's keep Vandals, Sueves and Visigoths more Germanic than Roman, but, please, let's not try making them fully Germanic still in 1066, because it wouldn't make much sense. That's all I'm saying.
I'm sure we can find a compromise here between a full blown Romance language and a Latinized dialect of Gothic though... so let's experiment with both languages until we find the middle ground, yes?
My source was an online version of the Gothic dictionary inside Wilhelm Streitberg's Die gotische Bibel, which itself is based, on, as you would expect, the Gothic or Wulfila Bible. I'm afraid I cannot link it due to forum rules, but a Google search should yield some quick results.
My source was an online version of the Gothic dictionary inside Wilhelm Streitberg's Die gotische Bibel, which itself is based, on, as you would expect, the Gothic or Wulfila Bible. I'm afraid I cannot link it due to forum rules, but a Google search should yield some quick results.
Hmm...so I suppose that in this case the ruler of the nation couldn't be the head of the faith then, and there'd have to be a Pope-like figure among the clergy, the Great Teacher, so to speak. Would make for an interesting dynamic if the Way of Peace ever got to be a large religion.