[MOD] Lux Invicta

[blackhelm]

In order to keep it somehow balanced, I created a little calculation to evaluate the approximate military value of a given combination of units. It is based on the following values of units:
LI = 1
Archers = 1.5
LC = 4
HA = 3 (takes into account the low economic "cost" of such warriors for those civilizaitons who have access to them)
Pikemen = 4
HI = 4
HC = 8

Being said that perfect balance is not what we aim for anyway, would you agree with these values?

Don't forget that some of the religions receive bonii to the effective stats of certain soldier types, meaning that even though LI or AR are generally poor soldiers, they might be as much as half again better than normal. Actually, now that I think about that, how do those religious bonii work exactly? (Not the LI unique ones, but the bonii invented for the The Old Gods pagans) Are they based on the religious faith of the commander? How do they affect soldiers raised from a heathen or heretic province? Mercs? Suddenly I think that those bonii could be much more clearly explained....

On the subject of celtic sacrifices, alot of what I read seems to point to a sacrifice not to glory the gods but for the purpose of divination.

Nah, that's one of those Greco-roman or Medieval assertions that we have absolutely zero evidence for. Basically all the statements to that effect come from either a group of turn of the millennium Romans (Lucan, Iulius Caesar, Cicero, Suetonius) or WAAAAAY later, in like the 10th century AD, neither of which are known for their stunning achievements in scientific archaeology.


Honestly the wikipedia pages are really pretty good on this topic - the general consensus is that what evidence we do have archaeologically is pretty ambiguous, with a lot of it being large grave-sites at "holy places", where there are a series of better explanations than something so extreme as human sacrifices for any reason. Pretty much we have to take the same tack as when we discuss similarly outlandish claims, like cannibalism or aliens. One needs to provide extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims.


@Darkreborn
Also, after reading through the LI timeline again using ctrl-f to search for the word "sacrifice", I'll be damned if Sol Invictus isn't the bloodiest dang religion of the bunch. Lots o' crazy emperors sacrificing people to their own glory and whatnot. Also, there's definitely a distinct type of sacrifice I forgot to mention - sacrifice after a successful siege by the victors, occasionally using the entire population as victims. Possibly a piety boosting but holding destroying choice on siege victory? Something to think on!

 

[Numahr]

Thanks riknap for the quantitative explanation, I'll base the Holy Orders balance based on those. Honestly it looks well-thought, my only comment would be that IMO horse archers should be as good as light cavalry in pursue phase, if not better.

--- EDIT ---

OK so here is composition of a Holy Order for an average situation (value of 3, the default value before doctrinal status and soul impact the size of a Holy Order):
(concretely, the value of a Holy Order composition = value of each soldier as provided by riknap /1,000)



Comments welcome...

 

[Lhutien]

Shouldnt Graeco-Roman concentrate on heavy infantry or am I just retarded at that part.

 

[Numahr]

Graeco-Roman has 400 heavy infantry and 400 pikemen. Don't forget that the Graeco-Roman civilization tag includes the indo-hellenic kingdoms and other post-hellenistic states using the phalanx. Of course, the 50/50 split between heavy infantry and pikemen does not correspond to the classical Roman legion, but I had to do a compromise here.

I guess the best is to imagine that warfare styles for these very profesional organizations is specific and combines the Roman and the Hellenistic approach. Did you know that Romans did write some military manuals about how to form a Hellenistic phalanx? So there was *some* interest, which makes my compromise *somehow* justifiable for the Romans...

--- EDIT ---

Fine the job is done, holy orders defined for all religions.
See this Matrix

 

[blackhelm]

I heartily agree with the even 50/50 split between heavy infantry and pikemen for the Greco-romans. Considering the ambiguity of Republican Roman military organization (Are the Triarii pikemen or heavy infantry?) and the differences among the Hellenic and Hellenistic armies (Hoplites vs. Phalangites), it's pretty much a wash trying to differentiate between the two. Add to that the fact that the military history of the LI-verse is wildly different from our own history, and it's pretty much impossible to tell how much certain aspects of the martial world changed. Heck, we don't even know what armaments the Hypaspists used in our own time! I like the other Holy Orders too - nicely done!

 

[dowdpride]

dat Jewish/Buddhist horde.

 

[riknap]

I would trust Riknap, when it comes to the numbers of this game he knows what he's doing quite well :3

I also think LC should be less than or equal to HA, since in many situations (especially rural areas) light cavalrymen's gear consists of leather armor, a light lance (more of a spear) for running down routers, and a sabre in case you actually need to fight. Horse archers require special stirrups to free hands, arrows and a bow, probably a similar sabre, and maybe a buckler to protect your wrist. All in all, more expensive. However, what a payoff; nothing could outmatch the horse archer on the battlefield until some cheap bastard had to invent cowardpowder and "revolutionize warfare".

well, part of it mostly came from trying to conceptualize potential tactic formations for that still-not-yet-off-the-drawing-board Tactics Overhaul Project I've been meaning to do since forever :laugh:

in any case, back then, I was thinking LC more as the "outrider" type of unit which specializes in harrasing and chasing routers while avoiding direct combat, while HA being more of the mobile-skirmisher unit that could tolerate being in the midst of combat.

That said, while I was posting that a while ago and doing some playtesting (granted, I was playing Ironman vanilla patricians, but the ideas came to me during my imagination of the in-game battles), and here's my revised values for LC/HA which I'll upload in a while:

Light Cavalry - specializes in skirmish and pursue phase
morale: 5
skirmish: 8/4
melee: 2/3
pursue: 12/7

Horse Archers - more organized than LC but less effective in chasing down enemies
morale: 8
skirmish: 8/4
melee: 3/3
pursue: 8/7


that said, I still need to consider in-game balance relative to each other - which is why I intentionally make HA weaker than they could theoretically be. You wouldn't want one unit to be too OP lest a realm with acccess to that unit be excessively strong.

Thanks riknap for the quantitative explanation, I'll base the Holy Orders balance based on those. Honestly it looks well-thought, my only comment would be that IMO horse archers should be as good as light cavalry in pursue phase, if not better.

personally, I like to mentally hand-waive LC being more effecive in pursue by virtue of closing in for the melee while HA would "prefer" to snipe the routers as if they were hunting for sport :laugh:

that said, I most likely won't be chasing maintenance ratios anytime soon anyway, so yeah we can use those ratios.

that said, I'm curious...
jews with pikes? I'm tempted to make a joke, but I'll just settle for asking why :laugh:

Don't forget that some of the religions receive bonii to the effective stats of certain soldier types, meaning that even though LI or AR are generally poor soldiers, they might be as much as half again better than normal.

aye, LI/AR belonging to certain religions could be a whole lot more effective than they would be for other faiths

 

[Numahr]

Why Jewish Holy Orders with so many pikemen? Good question as it was not an obvious one... :blush:

Basically here I considered 2 things:

- the principle of conservativeness: whenever in doubt, I refer to the last pre-modern "order of battle" known in our timeline. I can't say I am a speciliast of that particular aspect of military history, but it seems to me that the zealots figthing Titus used phalanxes (admitedly, like half the world at that time). In LI, where the hellenistic military tradition of phalanx is well alive in the Near East, as documented by Shaytana himself when he spoke of his test game of Cyprus, I assume the elite Jewish military tradition would have kept this hellenistic influence.

- some added personal imagination about LI's Jews: I see them as a strong community of small owners, like the hellenic Athenian farmers. By this logic, it makes sense that their military tactics would revolve around defensive citizen-militia heavy infantry.

As both these logics met each other, and because I want differenciated holy orders because I just like religious differenciation , so I went for a phalanx-Jewish Holy Order!

Let me know if you have something else to suggest...

 

[futuregary]

Thanks riknap for the quantitative explanation, I'll base the Holy Orders balance based on those. Honestly it looks well-thought, my only comment would be that IMO horse archers should be as good as light cavalry in pursue phase, if not better.

--- EDIT ---

OK so here is composition of a Holy Order for an average situation (value of 3, the default value before doctrinal status and soul impact the size of a Holy Order):
(concretely, the value of a Holy Order composition = value of each soldier as provided by riknap /1,000)



Comments welcome...

The Aztecs were most well known for their boundless numbers. I think Mesoamerican should be at least 2000 before any modification.

Graeco-Roman has 400 heavy infantry and 400 pikemen. Don't forget that the Graeco-Roman civilization tag includes the indo-hellenic kingdoms and other post-hellenistic states using the phalanx. Of course, the 50/50 split between heavy infantry and pikemen does not correspond to the classical Roman legion, but I had to do a compromise here.

I guess the best is to imagine that warfare styles for these very profesional organizations is specific and combines the Roman and the Hellenistic approach. Did you know that Romans did write some military manuals about how to form a Hellenistic phalanx? So there was *some* interest, which makes my compromise *somehow* justifiable for the Romans...

--- EDIT ---

Fine the job is done, holy orders defined for all religions.
See this Matrix

Most of the "Graeco-Roman" references in the mod are more Graeco than Roman anyway.

Goddammit, why do I always get online after everything has been discussed and solidified :rofl:

Why Jewish Holy Orders with so many pikemen? Good question as it was not an obvious one... :blush:

Basically here I considered 2 things:

- the principle of conservativeness: whenever in doubt, I refer to the last pre-modern "order of battle" known in our timeline. I can't say I am a speciliast of that particular aspect of military history, but it seems to me that the zealots figthing Titus used phalanxes (admitedly, like half the world at that time). In LI, where the hellenistic military tradition of phalanx is well alive in the Near East, as documented by Shaytana himself when he spoke of his test game of Cyprus, I assume the elite Jewish military tradition would have kept this hellenistic influence.

- some added personal imagination about LI's Jews: I see them as a strong community of small owners, like the hellenic Athenian farmers. By this logic, it makes sense that their military tactics would revolve around defensive citizen-militia heavy infantry.

As both these logics met each other, and because I want differenciated holy orders because I just like religious differenciation , so I went for a phalanx-Jewish Holy Order!

Let me know if you have something else to suggest...

Rome: Total War's Judean Zealot. The pike thing has merit :3*

Aside from the recommendation I made above, I have nothing more to suggest. I can get started on this, if you'd like; need a break from the history folder and c_level titles for a while

Spoiler

*This is in no way meant to imply that Creative Assembly has any legitimate authority on historical accuracy. Not gonna start a fandom war.

 

[Numahr]

Hey Futuregary, sure please go ahead! Thanks. I guess I'll have no more excuse to get back to drafting localization or coding the soul-based decisions... although I'd like to pay a visit back to my beloved Central Asia before that, courtesy of DarkReborn! I may share a few thoughts on that region to you.

The Aztecs were most well known for their boundless numbers. I think Mesoamerican should be at least 2000 before any modification.

Fine... but take into account that we do not speak about the general SELIN modifiers, but the composition of the "elite force" devoted to the cause of the Gods, that holy orders tend to represent. Then note that this is the typology modifier for the mesoamerican civilization tag; in practice, the teotl religion has a multiplier of 7 due to its characteristics, resulting in a 4,200-strong holy order (1,800 x7 /3).

This being said and taken into consideration, please feel free to tweak the figure for the mesoamerican civilization in typology as you see fit and use the resulting figure in definition. Just beware that the value must be 3 in the "approximate value" column of typology for balance issues, so you will need to decrease the number of heavy infantry if you want to increase the overal size of the HO.

--- EDIT: Futuregary, do you still plan to conduct chirurgical edits in the religious set up to help weak religions and adapt to the new heresy dynamism? If so, that will affect the # of provinces controlled by each religion, and subsequently the multiplier for the HOs. So the HOs should be implemented after tweaks of the set up, and we will have to enter new values for # of provinces in the definition tab after the set up is updated.

 

[futuregary]

Hey Futuregary, sure please go ahead! Thanks. I guess I'll have no more excuse to get back to drafting localization or coding the soul-based decisions... although I'd like to pay a visit back to my beloved Central Asia before that, courtesy of DarkReborn! I may share a few thoughts on that region to you.

Fine... but take into account that we do not speak about the general SELIN modifiers, but the composition of the "elite force" devoted to the cause of the Gods, that holy orders tend to represent. Then note that this is the typology modifier for the mesoamerican civilization tag; in practice, the teotl religion has a multiplier of 7 due to its characteristics, resulting in a 4,200-strong holy order (1,800 x7 /3).

This being said and taken into consideration, please feel free to tweak the figure for the mesoamerican civilization in typology as you see fit and use the resulting figure in definition. Just beware that the value must be 3 in the "approximate value" column of typology for balance issues, so you will need to decrease the number of heavy infantry if you want to increase the overal size of the HO.

--- EDIT: Futuregary, do you still plan to conduct chirurgical edits in the religious set up to help weak religions and adapt to the new heresy dynamism? If so, that will affect the # of provinces controlled by each religion, and subsequently the multiplier for the HOs. So the HOs should be implemented after tweaks of the set up, and we will have to enter new values for # of provinces in the definition tab after the set up is updated.

That is a convenient side effect

Even still, the Mesoamerican fighting style is similar to that of the Russians and Chinese; swarm en masse and overpower the enemy with a lot of fighters, typically weaker (consider large defensive malus) individually, but grouped together create a horde most overwhelming. I will adjust the Matrix accordingly, since you suggested it.

After evaluation of this new map, I think the better solution is to adjust realm and province religions to fix the balance. Christianity is usually a good candidate for heresy in those religions. Plus, I'm having to make a lot of province changes anyway to account for new borders. So yes, the number of provinces will be different, and certain holy orders will lose troops. However, there will be other holy orders getting scrapped altogether (or rather, "elevated" to their reformed form).

In addition, I have a new rule to propose for holy orders: All reformed religions get at least one. Mainstream religions may have more, depending on discretion based off game mechanics, alt-historical compatibility, and other contributing factors.

Edit:

I may share a few thoughts on that region to you.

Please do! India is coming along (I have a draft-in-progress available in my locker) but I'm mostly stumped as far as Central Asia. I was thinking of putting some Tengri-Confucians in the Tarim Basin, a visible remnant of the waves of Confucian refugees fleeing Buddhist persecution in China.

 

[Numahr]

In addition, I have a new rule to propose for holy orders: All reformed religions get at least one. Mainstream religions may have more, depending on discretion based off game mechanics, alt-historical compatibility, and other contributing factors.

??? Is this not precisely the point of the work I have just done, to define Holy Orders for all reformed religions? Look at the definition tab, you'll see them!

I guess some people got confused (not you Futuregary?) by the table above. This is NOT the composition of actual holy orders. This is the base default composition before the religion-specific multiplier applies, assuming a default value of 3 (equivalent of 3,000 LI).

The formula to calculate the multiplier is the following:
3 + soul and doctrinal status modifiers + # of provinces/10 OR 3 if the religion is created upon reform x reformed status (0 if unreformed, 1 if reformed)

As you see, with this formula, all reformed religions get a Holy Order...

Edit: to clarify re. the matrix, I am as ever working on it, so just let me know your values for Mesoamerican Holy Order in the typology tab and I'll enter them

 

[futuregary]

??? Is this not precisely the point of the work I have just done, to define Holy Orders for all reformed religions? Look at the definition tab, you'll see them!

I guess some people got confused (not you Futuregary?) by the table above. This is NOT the composition of actual holy orders. This is the base default composition before the religion-specific multiplier applies, assuming a default value of 3 (equivalent of 3,000 LI).

The formula to calculate the multiplier is the following:
3 + soul and doctrinal status modifiers + # of provinces/10 OR 3 if the religion is created upon reform x reformed status (0 if unreformed, 1 if reformed)

As you see, with this formula, all reformed religions get a Holy Order...

Edit: to clarify re. the matrix, I am as ever working on it, so just let me know your values for Mesoamerican Holy Order in the typology tab and I'll enter them

... '

The purpose of that wasn't to talk about the number of troops in the holy orders, the purpose was to talk about the number of holy orders in general. It can't be just the Catholic pious with hordes upon hordes of faithful, overpowered knights at their disposal. Also, the emphasis was more on the latter half of that rule: Mainstream religions may have more. The reason I say it should be at discretion after observation is because there are only so many holy orders in existence :laugh: Religion size has a lot to do with it, but so do things like martial devotion, highly-populated areas (something we can't even calculate, we just have to know), and things like that. I'd also like to stay away from invention as much as possible. Adapting actual holy orders (for example, if it was Catholic in Spain before, make it Arian) and piecing some together based on clues in the timeline would make for a very lore-rich holy order system; something that I know was imposed before we started tinkering with it.

I have some written down in my notebook. I will upload them in a document in my locker, along with the next update to the Mesoamerican Civilization. By the way, on another note... some of these new religions are going to need new Civilizations to be made. Even some of the most miniscule ones... frustrating, I know, but I figured I would let you know in advance.

 

[Numahr]

- On holy orders already in existence: OK well we actually discussed this during your short occultation and our positions match then: the current system is here to help create holy orders for religions where a custom approach did not already take place. In no way it is supposed to undo work already done with love by Shaytana or others. So yes, existing holy orders can remain. Then the matrix can be used to create holy orders at an industrial scale, but still lore-relevant, for those religions out of the scope of modders' attention up to now.

- Also in the same lines, yes, sure, adapting existing holy orders is fine, like making a Catholic one Arian etc.

- Also the numbers in the Matrix can be split into several HOs

- But let's try to keep a general balance of things. I suggest the following: the Matrix calculates the approximate value that a religion's HO, or a religion's different HOs, should reach (column 29). Then it calculates the value it actually gets (column 38). These two figures, by the laws of mathematics, currently match perfectly. But we can use them separately. When there are existing Hos you edit, you can enter the de facto number of troops a religion gets through its various HOs in the columns 29 to 36, replacing automatic calculation. The two numbers in column 29 and 38 can be different, but let's say, not "too much" (up to you how much is too much...). For example Catholic actually has the highest theoritical number, and so will remain the holder of the most powerful HOs, but by applying this, we can make sure that a religion does not get OP just because it received more love from the devs, which is the point of SELIN (religious differentiation while making all religions equally interesting). if that means tweaking the composition of existing HOs, as opposed to replacing them by robot-HOs, then why not using the Matrix' wisdom .

- Well what I just wrote needs to be balanced with previous points, partly contradictory, so the whole thing requires finesse... But by documenting in the definition tab of your working copy of the matrix, we can discuss further technicalities... maybe by email to not bother commoners with all these...

Is this general approach OK? if you feel all this tampering with troops values is too much, I can follow up and share my draft for consultations instead.

 

[futuregary]

Alright, you quiet SOBs. Here you go.

Spoiler

Larger resolution image

This is just the realms we already have defined coded in (obviously readjusted, since when I first got it it looked like <CISPA>'d), as you can see, I needed to give some realms more land to fit better, and I'm almost out of space in the north. That little yellow blob at the end of the blue blob is.... actually nothing yet, I put the province in landed_titles but haven't chosen what goes there yet, so it's just an independent county for right now. I'll figure something out to go up there eventually. To answer questions concerning Greenland: The two provinces are going to be an independent duchy under Tuniq leadership, and it will fit with Iceland under the Kingdom of Vinland. Vinland will be independent of Scandinavia, since its more of a former colonial province than a part of mainland Miklariki. As far as start up, the Kingdom of Vinland will start out in control of all four provinces (two in Greenland, two in Iceland) and be based in Reykjarvik. Greenland, however, will actually be ruled by a duke-level Tuniq character that starts as a vassal to the king. It is thereby possible for the Tuniq to stage a revolt against the Norse and reclaim their stolen land. Concerning Africa: We'll get there. At least the Indian and Steppe provinces have history files coded for them; I'll have to do the African ones by hand, and it sounds really intrinsic; but what a marvel it shall be when finished.

---

- On holy orders already in existence: OK well we actually discussed this during your short occultation and our positions match then: the current system is here to help create holy orders for religions where a custom approach did not already take place. In no way it is supposed to undo work already done with love by Shaytana or others. So yes, existing holy orders can remain. Then the matrix can be used to create holy orders at an industrial scale, but still lore-relevant, for those religions out of the scope of modders' attention up to now.

- Also in the same lines, yes, sure, adapting existing holy orders is fine, like making a Catholic one Arian etc.

- Also the numbers in the Matrix can be split into several HOs

- But let's try to keep a general balance of things. I suggest the following: the Matrix calculates the approximate value that a religion's HO, or a religion's different HOs, should reach (column 29). Then it calculates the value it actually gets (column 38). These two figures, by the laws of mathematics, currently match perfectly. But we can use them separately. When there are existing Hos you edit, you can enter the de facto number of troops a religion gets through its various HOs in the columns 29 to 36, replacing automatic calculation. The two numbers in column 29 and 38 can be different, but let's say, not "too much" (up to you how much is too much...). For example Catholic actually has the highest theoritical number, and so will remain the holder of the most powerful HOs, but by applying this, we can make sure that a religion does not get OP just because it received more love from the devs, which is the point of SELIN (religious differentiation while making all religions equally interesting). if that means tweaking the composition of existing HOs, as opposed to replacing them by robot-HOs, then why not using the Matrix' wisdom .

- Well what I just wrote needs to be balanced with previous points, partly contradictory, so the whole thing requires finesse... But by documenting in the definition tab of your working copy of the matrix, we can discuss further technicalities... maybe by email to not bother commoners with all these...

Is this general approach OK? if you feel all this tampering with troops values is too much, I can follow up and share my draft for consultations instead.

Gah! I wrote a reply to this, I must have closed out without posting.

I'm actually very confused, it doesn't seem like we're talking about the same thing. Allow me to explain with another example: The Livonian Brothers of the Sword were (IRL) a Catholic holy order founded to repel pagan invaders in Livonia. Since Catholics don't live in Livonia in Lux, the logical assignment to this would be the Saulic faith. But since Saulism is unreformed, it would go to the Sehuli faith. And thus, the Livonian Brothers of the Sword are an order of Sehul. Actually, the Livonian Brothers of the Sword don't currently exist in Lux, but they would be put in. I guess a better way of saying it (and I don't know why I didn't say it this way before) would be taking historical holy orders and Luxifying them, rather than solely concocting holy orders out of our imaginations. Obviously, we'd need to do both, but as much of the historical ones as possible. The invented ones, of course, should also be as lore-rich as possible.

A good plan, involving the e-mail, but while I was replying

Hmm... balance-wise, having the formula calculate a "troop pool" that holy orders could deduct from would be the most preferable option, but if the religion has four or five holy orders, the troop count in each would be rather minute and unimpressive. Since these extra holy orders would be centralized in specific key areas, we could take into consideration local population size (again, not a measurable factor :/) during distribution, but what do you think?

 

[AnaxXiphos]

DarkReborn requested I look at a few LI icons... Here's the first products:



This is a depiction of an actual Arab Pagan idol, so obviously intended for use with Arab Pagans. It's not too late to make changes if necessary, though I rather like it. I even managed to squeeze in the crescent moon symbol on the chest, just like the actual thing.

Also tried some stuff with the Neo-Platonic icon:




No download links, since you can just download the images. They'll have to be stitched into the actual icon strip file, but I'm not messing with LI's gigantic abomination of a file. I don't feel like scrolling right for a century to paste something new in!

Edit: Whoops, forgot to mention that I'll make up the matching small versions when/if any are actually approved.

 

[shakeled1]

That map is a thing of beauty. You're all such wonderful people.

 

[riknap]

h3lp pl0x! I can no run LI - just crashing at start. n00b n33d h3lp!!!

:rofl:


kidding aside, I'm unable for some reason to run the LI SVN build (revision 512). It just outright crashes before it even reaches the loading screens (which is odd as I recall running it several days ago).
any ideas what could be causing this? @_@
looking at the logs, I can't see anything that could potentially make it crash (disabling music and BLC submods doesn't help).

 

[DarkReborn]

DarkReborn requested I look at a few LI icons... Here's the first products:



This is a depiction of an actual Arab Pagan idol, so obviously intended for use with Arab Pagans. It's not too late to make changes if necessary, though I rather like it. I even managed to squeeze in the crescent moon symbol on the chest, just like the actual thing.

Also tried some stuff with the Neo-Platonic icon:




No download links, since you can just download the images. They'll have to be stitched into the actual icon strip file, but I'm not messing with LI's gigantic abomination of a file. I don't feel like scrolling right for a century to paste something new in!

Awesome! The Arab idol is one of the things I've been trying for a while... and failing a lot.
Don't worry, I've acquired expertise at going through our gigantic icon list.

h3lp pl0x! I can no run LI - just crashing at start. n00b n33d h3lp!!!

:rofl:


kidding aside, I'm unable for some reason to run the LI SVN build (revision 512). It just outright crashes before it even reaches the loading screens (which is odd as I recall running it several days ago).
any ideas what could be causing this? @_@
looking at the logs, I can't see anything that could potentially make it crash (disabling music and BLC submods doesn't help).

Probably I touched defines.lua in a bad way... I'll check if there are any missing commas.

 

[AnaxXiphos]

Awesome! The Arab idol is one of the things I've been trying for a while... and failing a lot.
Don't worry, I've acquired expertise at going through our gigantic icon list.

Small version for Arab icon:



Let me know if you end up using any of the Neo-Platonic icons, and I'll have a go at making small versions for those, too. I've also got a Mithraism concept I'm working on, as well, but it isn't finished yet.