[MOD] Lux Invicta

[Numahr]

Thanks for the offer to encode these...
Let me think over this overnight and I'll come up with something...

I had already noticed some kind of aggressive behaviors based on these modifiers, but having this new knowledge is really interesting. I remember reading an interview from Paradox guys about AI in CK and how this game is supposed to model different mindsets based on these modifiers, thus making the AI-controlled characters appear more "human." This is definitely an interesting feature to use.

 

[riknap]

Thanks for the offer to encode these...
Let me think over this overnight and I'll come up with something...

I had already noticed some kind of aggressive behaviors based on these modifiers, but having this new knowledge is really interesting. I remember reading an interview from Paradox guys about AI in CK and how this game is supposed to model different mindsets based on these modifiers, thus making the AI-controlled characters appear more "human." This is definitely an interesting feature to use.

well, it has always been in there since the start. the lack of documentations however is just... well, obfuscating of their usability. And yeah, I do recall that interview as well - it was also noted that they didn't make all traits do it for balance as well if I remember correctly.

In any case, encoding it and including it via libert3 simplifies matters for the both of us anyway (since I tend to edit triggered_modifiers a lot in the course of balancing), so we both benefit from it.

incidentally, a minor note that I forgot to add is that ai_honor also affects likelihood to join plots (those moral/amoral things when inviting them). That, and the fact that high honor means they're less likely to attack allies and high-relations, means that it could potentially also be added to certain religions that emphasize harmony (... really? :laugh: well, whatever passes for "harmony" in the LI-verse anyway :rofl. Then again, it's also probably best to make honor trait-dependent only as well (i'll probably also have to retweak my own values a bit lower as well, since 60 honor for some bloodlines means they are very unlikely to plot at all :laugh: )

 

[iLoveApples]

Just for the heck of it I had played a vanilla game as the Duke of Flanders. And I ruled pretty much the entire world all thanks to me getting the Genius trait into my family and keeping it there, all the idiots (aka the one's who where not Geniuses) were pretty much banished from my lands .
Now I had come to the conclusion that I myself also hold the Genius trait and thus attempted the same feat in LI, but things didn't work out that way. I had gained a Genius wife and she has given me nine children. None of them Genius. So, I was wondering whether the chance for the Genius trait to inherit was severly diminished.

 

[Numahr]

OK I have tweaked the SELIN modifiers in the matrix to take into account these new findings on AI weights. Mostly I re-considered rationality and tuned down honor; other small changes as well.

For info this is a small extract from the matrix showing the updated impacts of religious characteristics on AI weights. You will note that souls have the most impact, but all religions get slightly impacted by their doctrinal status as well (especially the heretic one), and archaic religions receive a special treatment as well due to this civilization being really different, vestige of an age long gone. [+mesoamerican, but this is not done by me and I left it as is]




@ riknap: here is the change log you can apply to triggered_modifiers.txt:
Note: these are relative figures, i.e. changes since last version.

State 
rationality +30
honor +20

Populist
rationality -30
honor -30

Populist
greed -40

Messianic
honor -50

Clerical
honor -20

Martial
ambition +20

 

[riknap]

those values are quite... overpowering :laugh:
just to confirm, does that make heretical messianic faiths have ai_zeal = 50+80 or ai_zeal = 130 for example? I kinda get the feeling that even cynical (zeal -100) messianic (zeal +130) rulers will jump at the chance to holy war then if invited :laugh:
and I think I got slightly confused. should I look at the table or at the coded list you gave?
I forgot the modifiers already have ai-weights. So I should just look at the coded list in determining which values to increase/decrease as relevant?

 

[Numahr]

- well yes some of these values are strong. This is the way they have been since SELIN has been integrated... Generally the modifiers are rather mild, but the AI weights are strong, by design. We had defined these values based on a more limited understanding of what AI weights do, but the original goal was already to have AIs behave very differently depending on their religion.
- note also that the characteristics with the strongest values are rather rare. Clerical or Traditional religions, if you look at them, have quite small AI weights. They constitute the majority of religions. Messianic religions are much rarer. But these few are supposed to behave very distinctly.
- the table provides the updated figures for the general public / the code part tells why what to change from existing values.

 

[Darkgamma]

Ooh, nice stuff this patch around!

 

[riknap]

@Numahr,
fair points, especially in making "rare religions" much stronger". While I did actually agree with it, I just felt I just had to point it out just in case it was an unintentional oversight

@Darkgamma,
just reading the change log makes me really worried already (my classes start all over again by june 13 or so, and I'd obviously damn hell want to play before that :laugh: ). It doesn't help that my desktop decided to rebel. Now a lot of files and stuff are corrupt and it took a day wrestling it back into order. Because of this, I haven't been able to play at all, and I feel I'll never be able to play as a consequence of needing to work on it again :laugh:
Then again, I did upgrade my GPU to a gtx650, so I almost don't mind :laugh: though I'm highly tempted to play something else as a consequence, like Fall of the Samurai or something...

 

[Numahr]

Just sharing the newly drafted description of a little religion nobody will probably never play (one-province only), which I find quite sweet and very LI-esque... :

Montanism is a Heretical Christian sect of Clerical soul, incorporating significant Graeco-Roman influences. Its founder, Montanus, a mystic from Phrygia, lunched a movement called "The New Prophecy" in the 2nd Century, which spread rapidly to other regions in the Roman Empire at a time when Christianity was not yet recognized or tolerated in the Western Empire. Montanus was a recent convert when he first began prophesying. He believed he was a prophet of God and asserted that the New Jerusalem would appear in Phrygia; he insisted the Holy Trinity had precedence over Jesus, a mere initiator of his own prophecies. In his prophecies, Montanus emulated the oracles of the Greco-Roman world and spoke in the first person as God, claiming direct divine inspiration. Montanism remains a movement focused around prophecy, specifically the prophecies of the inineterrupted lines of "New Prophets", chosen at each generation by the Wise amongst the Wise. These prophecies, formulated from the Montanist Oracle in Phrygia, are believed to contain the Holy Spirit's revelation for the present age.

 

[Numahr]

Re. change log, outlining and commenting items of specific interest for SELIN, which were not already mentioned before:
(non-exhaustive, subjective focus...)

General:
- Catholic Holy Orders will no longer fight other Christians unless they are a heresy of Catholicism: if I understand correctly, the HO will not be used against other religions of the same religious group except for heresies.
- Demand Conversion now also converts the court of the recipient: to be taken into account where implementing the conversion tweaks
- Vassal religious heads can now grant the invasion CB: this will open the feature to many religions which could not use it until now although they had it in their properties...
- When the primary title is taken from a Caliph, the Caliphate should now go with it if the taker can hold it: very interesting as primary titles in LI are so fragile...
- Certain religions are now more passive, some more aggressive: we just discussed how we do it in LI through AI weights in triggered_modifiers... does this one mean a new, more adapted tool?
- Will now prioritize recreating destroyed religious head titles

New modding tools:
- Added religion_modifiers, these are temporary modifiers to a religion's MA score
- Traits can now be marked as religious, which will clear them out if a character changes religion
- Added an 'aggression' field to religions (AI parameter): answers my question above I think
- Added trigger 'is_reformed_religion'
- Added 'defensive_attrition' to religions

Edit: from Q/A:
- Reformed pagans can all declare holy wars, but they cannot send their high priest to proselytize.: so the equation reformed = proselyte does not apply, at least in terms of game mechanics. Does not mean we cannot do it so. To be assessed further I would say...
- the two systems do not mix (concubines and polygamy.): we can remove the current polygamy for Slavs and replace it by Concubines, probably
- No it does not give you an alliance. Most often the concubines of nobles you take are forcefully taken.: I was concerned that Slavs were getting an undue advantage with the 3-wives polygamy, no longer thanks to the new concubine system.
- It's raiding moddable? Can i enable (via modding) the raiding and river sailing features to any religion/culture? / Yes, it's just a field in religion.txt : confirmation of what we had guessed. Good, flexible system.

 

[Darkgamma]

Boiz it goan hapan tudey

 

[riknap]

a minor curiosity, but has anyone considered demoting the Brittannic "kings" into petty kings with TOG?
also, Numahr, should I go ahead and start coding the ai_weight changes, or should I wait until we find out just what this "new system" of making other religions more aggressive/passive are? (I get the feeling it's simply AI weights as well)

edit: I also realized, but don't religions get their own text file now? So will you be exporting all triggered_modifiers there?

 

[futuregary]

Re. change log, outlining and commenting items of specific interest for SELIN, which were not already mentioned before:
(non-exhaustive, subjective focus...)

General:
- Catholic Holy Orders will no longer fight other Christians unless they are a heresy of Catholicism: if I understand correctly, the HO will not be used against other religions of the same religious group except for heresies.
- Demand Conversion now also converts the court of the recipient: to be taken into account where implementing the conversion tweaks As in, it asks their court the same question or forces it on them?
- Vassal religious heads can now grant the invasion CB: this will open the feature to many religions which could not use it until now although they had it in their properties... Hey, it's almost like a crusade...
- When the primary title is taken from a Caliph, the Caliphate should now go with it if the taker can hold it: very interesting as primary titles in LI are so fragile...
- Certain religions are now more passive, some more aggressive: we just discussed how we do it in LI through AI weights in triggered_modifiers... does this one mean a new, more adapted tool? I thought this is what pacifism = yes was for. On a side note, does anyone know what horde = yes does?
- Will now prioritize recreating destroyed religious head titles FINALLY. They can be destroyed. There is no reason to have a Pope when no one is Catholic.

New modding tools:
- Added religion_modifiers, these are temporary modifiers to a religion's MA score Does this undo SELIN or make it easier?
- Traits can now be marked as religious, which will clear them out if a character changes religion Sectarian/Communitarian anyone?
- Added an 'aggression' field to religions (AI parameter): answers my question above I think
- Added trigger 'is_reformed_religion'
- Added 'defensive_attrition' to religions

Edit: from Q/A:
- Reformed pagans can all declare holy wars, but they cannot send their high priest to proselytize.: so the equation reformed = proselyte does not apply, at least in terms of game mechanics. Does not mean we cannot do it so. To be assessed further I would say... So everyone gets a holy war?
- the two systems do not mix (concubines and polygamy.): we can remove the current polygamy for Slavs and replace it by Concubines, probably I'll be honest, I've never seen the Slavic polygamy. Then again, I haven't been looking, but still.
- No it does not give you an alliance. Most often the concubines of nobles you take are forcefully taken.: I was concerned that Slavs were getting an undue advantage with the 3-wives polygamy, no longer thanks to the new concubine system. As the Q&A said, though, taking a Christian princess as a concubine will give any children a claim on her father's land.
- It's raiding moddable? Can i enable (via modding) the raiding and river sailing features to any religion/culture? / Yes, it's just a field in religion.txt : confirmation of what we had guessed. Good, flexible system.

Read the bolded for my comments. You know you want to :laugh:

Boiz it goan hapan tudey

Oh you Alemannii and your advanced time zones. I still have 6 agonizing more hours in this hellish desert before the Old Gods return.

a minor curiosity, but has anyone considered demoting the Brittannic "kings" into petty kings with TOG?
also, Numahr, should I go ahead and start coding the ai_weight changes, or should I wait until we find out just what this "new system" of making other religions more aggressive/passive are? (I get the feeling it's simply AI weights as well)

edit: I also realized, but don't religions get their own text file now? So will you be exporting all triggered_modifiers there?

WHAT WAS THAT LAST BIT THERE?

This is why I don't take four hour naps.

Also, are petty kings ducal level? If so, no. The "Interesting Characters" are all either king- or empire-tier. Should not change :laugh:



On a side note, I have a feeling if we're all doing work on the same files when TOG comes out simultaneously, we will need to integrate one another's work and it will all be done differently and that's uncomfortable. I believe I will hold off on mine until riknap and Numahr are done with their edits. Don't want any more yellow lines :laugh:

 

[dowdpride]

will the "interesting characters" (some of them) get unique events far in the future ala some of the GOT personas? also, having a lot of fun with my Empire of Britannia game (from Dumnonia) and my Sparta game, good job on the mod!

 

[riknap]

This is why I don't take four hour naps.

Also, are petty kings ducal level? If so, no. The "Interesting Characters" are all either king- or empire-tier. Should not change :laugh:

On a side note, I have a feeling if we're all doing work on the same files when TOG comes out simultaneously, we will need to integrate one another's work and it will all be done differently and that's uncomfortable. I believe I will hold off on mine until riknap and Numahr are done with their edits. Don't want any more yellow lines :laugh:

I personally think ducal-title petty-kings would be better for some one-county realms since it will give them access to the Become King ambition, which will better allow them to subjugate other petty-kings and eventually become a true-king. Currently, king-tier petty-kings can only take land from each other, which is a shame since subjugating each other means the other petty-king survives and can potentially break free (something which happens in the LI timeline way too often).
Of course, an issue with this is that it might require the DLC to have been bought for them to be playable though (or maybe not, depending on how the DLC locks/unlocks pagans - then again, muslims already require SOI anyway [making patricians as vassals makes sense in a role-playing LI-verse perspective though, so I won't be suggesting they be independent any time soon] )

....
now if only richvh logs back in :laugh:

will the "interesting characters" (some of them) get unique events far in the future ala some of the GOT personas? also, having a lot of fun with my Empire of Britannia game (from Dumnonia) and my Sparta game, good job on the mod!

potentially, potentially not. currently, there is a lot of work the base-mod needs to receive after all. Besides, we're essentially just keeping this mod and improving its foundations for the moment as Shaytana hasn't been absent for more than a year anyway, and there's always the chance he'll come back some time.

 

[futuregary]

I personally think ducal-title petty-kings would be better for some one-county realms since it will give them access to the Become King ambition, which will better allow them to subjugate other petty-kings and eventually become a true-king. Currently, king-tier petty-kings can only take land from each other, which is a shame since subjugating each other means the other petty-king survives and can potentially break free (something which happens in the LI timeline way too often).
Of course, an issue with this is that it might require the DLC to have been bought for them to be playable though (or maybe not, depending on how the DLC locks/unlocks pagans - then again, muslims already require SOI anyway [making patricians as vassals makes sense in a role-playing LI-verse perspective though, so I won't be suggesting they be independent any time soon] )

....
now if only richvh logs back in :laugh:

I thought the "true-king" idea was connotated by the Empire of Britannia. Still, it would be interesting to remove the empire and have the kings as ducal-level "kings". Then again, since most of them are titular kingdoms which can be made de jure, and duchies cannot, I think it's better to leave it be.

 

[Numahr]

also, Numahr, should I go ahead and start coding the ai_weight changes, or should I wait until we find out just what this "new system" of making other religions more aggressive/passive are? (I get the feeling it's simply AI weights as well)

edit: I also realized, but don't religions get their own text file now? So will you be exporting all triggered_modifiers there?

- if you can, yes, feel free to correct the AI weights, as this is akin to a bug fix, and the current AI tweaks, for example, reduce the tendency for plotting in instances where it should not. Even if a new system arises, the AI weights will remain as they are now defined

- if this is true it will definitely make every thing look cleaner, as the religious traits will do for the communitarian / sectarian trait. Every thing will get a more "streamlined", less "modded in" feel...

 

[Darkgamma]

Gaiz. Galz. Ripchap.
Upload your latest files now so that we have them before the actual update.

 

[riknap]

Gaiz. Galz. Ripchap.
Upload your latest files now so that we have them before the actual update.

v11b+c is the latest, at least for me (I haven't started coding in any changes yet due to my PC playing games with me instead of the other way around).
now that I think about it, that's probably the best arrangement. You and gary work on making them compatible first, and Numahr and I will work on refining compatibility later once you've done the heavy lifting of adding in missing lines and stuff.
In the meanwhile, I'll actually play a video game, as having still not played since December (half-hour "playtesting" not with standing) I have asymptotically close to zero morale to do any coding in any form :laugh:

 

[Squiglypig]

Hey guys, I've got a bug here, it seems that no one can move.. Anywhere..
It just says that they'll arrive whatever date it currently is, so they don't move at all.

NVM, went back one page and saw the answer, thanks ^^