[MOD] Lord of the Rings / Mid-Third Age - MERP Edition

[Stars_and_Bars]

First off, I like the mod and really want to see it flourish, but I do have some questions.

1. Why are there only Autocratic Monarchies, Migratory Tribes, and Plutocratic republics. Are some of these just placeholders for further diversification?

2. Why is the culture and religion map so filled with very little color? It makes sense that the beasts, and spiders are grey, but if the orcs are a different culture group, why are they the same color? Also why are the Edain and Mixed Edain culture groups so darkly colored when they're supposed to be a light shining into the darkness of this world? It's just a bit weird because you give the Noldor this amazing unique green but then the Teleri have the same color as the Eotheod, despite being totally different.

3. Why are the pops in Lorien called Galadhrim if Galadriel is still in Edhelhond?

4. I just watched as AI Arthedain and Cardolan fought a war against Rhudaur which killed a third of the population and left the realm of rhudaur with so many unpopulated provinces, this all happened within the first 7 years.

5. I really like how fast this mod runs, it might be because there are a lot less pops than vanilla, but it runs really fast at 5 speed.

6. I've been playing as Edhelhond, and I have to wonder what's the point of the elves having different religions for Teleri and Noldor? It just means every few years if I don't convert Galadriel to Teleri, I lose 20 stability.

7. Localisation is weird, Galadriel is a King, not a Queen, but then again there's a lot to be done in localization, and that's to be expected.

8. There seems to be huge imbalance in terms of population growth. If a province becomes depopulated, it's almost impossible to colonize again and might have 1 pop after a while, but if it has at least one pop left, it's population will flourish and maybe double in a generation.

 

[VineFynn]

First off, I like the mod and really want to see it flourish, but I do have some questions.

1. Why are there only Autocratic Monarchies, Migratory Tribes, and Plutocratic republics. Are some of these just placeholders for further diversification?

2. Why is the culture and religion map so filled with very little color? It makes sense that the beasts, and spiders are grey, but if the orcs are a different culture group, why are they the same color? Also why are the Edain and Mixed Edain culture groups so darkly colored when they're supposed to be a light shining into the darkness of this world? It's just a bit weird because you give the Noldor this amazing unique green but then the Teleri have the same color as the Eotheod, despite being totally different.

3. Why are the pops in Lorien called Galadhrim if Galadriel is still in Edhelhond?

4. I just watched as AI Arthedain and Cardolan fought a war against Rhudaur which killed a third of the population and left the realm of rhudaur with so many unpopulated provinces, this all happened within the first 7 years.

5. I really like how fast this mod runs, it might be because there are a lot less pops than vanilla, but it runs really fast at 5 speed.

6. I've been playing as Edhelhond, and I have to wonder what's the point of the elves having different religions for Teleri and Noldor? It just means every few years if I don't convert Galadriel to Teleri, I lose 20 stability.

7. Localisation is weird, Galadriel is a King, not a Queen, but then again there's a lot to be done in localization, and that's to be expected.

8. There seems to be huge imbalance in terms of population growth. If a province becomes depopulated, it's almost impossible to colonize again and might have 1 pop after a while, but if it has at least one pop left, it's population will flourish and maybe double in a generation.

Galadrhim means "people of the trees", it has nothing to do with Galadriel.

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

Galadrhim means "people of the trees", it has nothing to do with Galadriel.

I can believe that, but damn that's stupid. Galadh + rim = tree + great number, Galad + riel = radiant + garlanded maiden. I like tolkien but that's just nonsense.

 

[VineFynn]

I can believe that, but damn that's stupid. Galadh + rim = tree + great number, Galad + riel = radiant + garlanded maiden. I like tolkien but that's just nonsense.

It makes plenty of sense to me, given that the Two Trees were very much radiant. I wouldn't be surprised if Tolkien intended one to be the root of the other.

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

I've notice that a lot of countries that don't border any sea have been adopting the military idea: permanent shipyards.

 

[MattAlexi]

First off, I like the mod and really want to see it flourish, but I do have some questions.

1. Why are there only Autocratic Monarchies, Migratory Tribes, and Plutocratic republics. Are some of these just placeholders for further diversification?

2. Why is the culture and religion map so filled with very little color? It makes sense that the beasts, and spiders are grey, but if the orcs are a different culture group, why are they the same color? Also why are the Edain and Mixed Edain culture groups so darkly colored when they're supposed to be a light shining into the darkness of this world? It's just a bit weird because you give the Noldor this amazing unique green but then the Teleri have the same color as the Eotheod, despite being totally different.

3. Why are the pops in Lorien called Galadhrim if Galadriel is still in Edhelhond?

4. I just watched as AI Arthedain and Cardolan fought a war against Rhudaur which killed a third of the population and left the realm of rhudaur with so many unpopulated provinces, this all happened within the first 7 years.

5. I really like how fast this mod runs, it might be because there are a lot less pops than vanilla, but it runs really fast at 5 speed.

6. I've been playing as Edhelhond, and I have to wonder what's the point of the elves having different religions for Teleri and Noldor? It just means every few years if I don't convert Galadriel to Teleri, I lose 20 stability.

7. Localisation is weird, Galadriel is a King, not a Queen, but then again there's a lot to be done in localization, and that's to be expected.

8. There seems to be huge imbalance in terms of population growth. If a province becomes depopulated, it's almost impossible to colonize again and might have 1 pop after a while, but if it has at least one pop left, it's population will flourish and maybe double in a generation.

I can answer a few of these questions for you, I am the team's world map artist. Thanks for the support!

1. There is a lot of temporary solutions in place while we continue working on this mod, I'm sure that you've noticed a few more by now anyway. We'd appreciate help with research and setting up proper systems for LotR in Imperator Rome.

2. I believe that the colours for each nation are temporary too unless they have a unique colour, and the way that you can tell if they've had custom work done for them is if they have a custom emblem on their flags and banners.

3. If you'd like to learn more about Edhellond you can find all the relevant quotes at this website. http://www.henneth-annun.net/places_view.cfm?PLID=78

4. While severe depopulation is something that happened in this time period of Middle-earth, we haven't yet fixed everything to do with population systems. Thanks for the report.

6. We're using Imperator's religion as a sub-class of culture. And while it should cause similar and relevant changes to stability, what you're reporting sounds like too much.

Might I recommend playing as Lindon, I've hand-crafted only that section of the world map - where as two thirds of the rest of the map I created in World Machine.

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

I can answer a few of these questions for you, I am the team's world map artist. Thanks for the support!

1. There is a lot of temporary solutions in place while we continue working on this mod, I'm sure that you've noticed a few more by now anyway. We'd appreciate help with research and setting up proper systems for LotR in Imperator Rome.

2. I believe that the colours for each nation are temporary too unless they have a unique colour, and the way that you can tell if they've had custom work done for them is if they have a custom emblem on their flags and banners.

3. If you'd like to learn more about Edhellond you can find all the relevant quotes at this website. http://www.henneth-annun.net/places_view.cfm?PLID=78

4. While severe depopulation is something that happened in this time period of Middle-earth, we haven't yet fixed everything to do with population systems. Thanks for the report.

6. We're using Imperator's religion as a sub-class of culture. And while it should cause similar and relevant changes to stability, what you're reporting sounds like too much.

Might I recommend playing as Lindon, I've hand-crafted only that section of the world map - where as two thirds of the rest of the map I created in World Machine.

I tried playing as Rivendell, (I'm not going to type out the elven name), I boosted population growth with the elvish supeior omen power, which allowed me to gain as x pops per decade where x is the number of provinces I had, but when I started colonizing eregion, I ran into a problem where I had beast pops growing. I kept migrating those into the dunedain realms or dunlending, but while that helps me it hurts the other realms. It's funny though. As an Eldar, Dunedain, or Khazad, it might be a valid strategy to offload some of your non-main culture pops on other realms, because the benefits of being pure are very good.

 

[Blood Royal]

I tried playing as Rivendell, (I'm not going to type out the elven name), I boosted population growth with the elvish supeior omen power, which allowed me to gain as x pops per decade where x is the number of provinces I had, but when I started colonizing eregion, I ran into a problem where I had beast pops growing. I kept migrating those into the dunedain realms or dunlending, but while that helps me it hurts the other realms. It's funny though. As an Eldar, Dunedain, or Khazad, it might be a valid strategy to offload some of your non-main culture pops on other realms, because the benefits of being pure are very good.

We're still tweaking stuff, and I haven't had time to fully change the gameplay to the new system with food and stability also giving high pop growth rates.

Previously, a 100% elf, dwarf of Dunedain realm would have extremely low population growth (base of around 0.01% all other things being equal), but now it's more like 0.40% with full food and positive stability. So that will need to be rebalanced somehow, though there are some issues with doing so from a mechanics point of view (pops that starve to death instantly upon game start until the food and stability kick in).

There will also be mechanics preventing elves and dwarves from ruling human pops directly (at least, there will be some penalties for it), kicking immigrating orcs out of goodie realms, etc.

Basically though, while I do want elf/dwarf/dunedain realms to be powerful, I also want there to be some serious disadvantages to them, especially over the long run as the other countries gain new pops at much higher growth rates.

And did you say you had beast pops? There aren't supposed to be any, so I may have to make a maintenance event that kills them then, if that's the case!

 

[dunka2]

So weird thing I noticed: sometimes trade routes will just end for no reason. The originating province will still have the surplus, but the game won't recognise it for whatever reason. Also should the Elven, Dwarven, and Human realms be taking slaves? Seems a bit odd. This also caused a couple provinces to turn Easterling even though there was a plurality of Dunedain. Not sure what is happening there.

Further are there any plans to make it possible to turn a realm away from Melkor? Because they seem to be taking everyone over...

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

So weird thing I noticed: sometimes trade routes will just end for no reason. The originating province will still have the surplus, but the game won't recognise it for whatever reason. Also should the Elven, Dwarven, and Human realms be taking slaves? Seems a bit odd. This also caused a couple provinces to turn Easterling even though there was a plurality of Dunedain. Not sure what is happening there.

Further are there any plans to make it possible to turn a realm away from Melkor? Because they seem to be taking everyone over...

As far as I can tell, the people east of rhun, south of gondor and beyond mordor were basically just waiting for sauron to come back and be their false messiah for the worship of melkor. They're basically just cannon fodder used to make sauron's threat against Gondor and the west to be a credible existential crisis. Otherwise Gondor's power grows unchecked and it's population explodes. Honestly, If I were playing a multiplayer game and I was anyone other than Gondor, I'd side with Sauron because Gondor is the much bigger threat for most of the game. It's only the complex system of truces in place "The Old Alliances" which prevent Gondor in-game from just destroying everyone.

 

[dunka2]

As far as I can tell, the people east of rhun, south of gondor and beyond mordor were basically just waiting for sauron to come back and be their false messiah for the worship of melkor. They're basically just cannon fodder used to make sauron's threat against Gondor and the west to be a credible existential crisis. Otherwise Gondor's power grows unchecked and it's population explodes. Honestly, If I were playing a multiplayer game and I was anyone other than Gondor, I'd side with Sauron because Gondor is the much bigger threat for most of the game. It's only the complex system of truces in place "The Old Alliances" which prevent Gondor in-game from just destroying everyone.

I should have been clearer when I said everyone. Both Etheod and Rhovanion switched to Melkor. I figured the Easterlings would switch, but seems odd for the Human realms to do that.

Also these battles go on for months and months, possibly due to the sheer number of cohorts on a battlefield. Is there no way to fix it?

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

I should have been clearer when I said everyone. Both Etheod and Rhovanion switched to Melkor. I figured the Easterlings would switch, but seems odd for the Human realms to do that.

Also these battles go on for months and months, possibly due to the sheer number of cohorts on a battlefield. Is there no way to fix it?

Human realms? They're all human, I believe the nerdy terminology you're looking for is the Middle men, the Men of Twilight.

 

[Anardil]

Well so far I'm having a blast, started playing as Arthedain and moved on to forming Arnor. Having a great time reuniting the royal houses of Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain hehe ^^

 

[dunka2]

Human realms? They're all human, I believe the nerdy terminology you're looking for is the Middle men, the Men of Twilight.

Yes of course. It's been so very long since I read the books, that my reference point now is pretty much just the movies. Also I've only played two games so far, but I've noticed that after a little while, there will be a rather large number of new families that have appeared. Last game I had I think 12 scorned families alone. Does the game automatically create new families for some reason?

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

Well so far I'm having a blast, started playing as Arthedain and moved on to forming Arnor. Having a great time reuniting the royal houses of Rhudaur, Cardolan and Arthedain hehe ^^

I've been enjoying playing as Elves and Dwarves, but the current problem where orcs and beasts spawn in provinces that had zero pops before you colonize has made playing without console cheats intolerable.

 

[AegonTheUnready]

@Blood Royal

First - this looks amazing. Good work!

A few thoughts on some of the issues raised upthread

One thing to decide is what sort of mood you wan to set. In Tolkein's work everything is basically always in decline. There are temporary victories and high points, whih are always followed by downfall and doom and a lessening of possibility. This is a big contrast to strategy games, where the player's realm is always growing and expaninding, gaining new tech and getting more powerful. So is your mod going to see a lot of downfall, or will it be more optimistic? Maybe this could be a option the player could decide for themselves "Hmm, will there be no dawn for Men, or do I want the Return of the King?"

Been thinking about Evil and the Omen system. I don't think Sauron is capable of getting Blessings. On the other hand, he did cast a lot of Curses. Is there a way to tie events to the Omens? So, for example, Sauron spends 500 religious Mana and sends a Great Plague to Gondor? or infests a region with barrowights? That sort of thing could be an interesting strategic option.

Tyranny should probably be reworked for Sauron/Witch King. Fell creatures expect Tyranny. On the other hand, Dunlendings and Wainriders might not be so keen, even if they are allied to Sauron. **Remember, Morgoth and SAuron never trusted Men, because men ahd free will, unlike the orcs who were essentially unredeemable.**

Conversion/Assimilation - 1 point to think about in your "melting pot" events is that when a Dunedain marries a Middle Man, you are not just losing a Dunedain, but you are raising up a Middle Man pop. So each conversion should result in two Lesser Dunedain, no? Also, a Daleman should be able to assimilate to Bree or Haradrim.

Probably some religious conversion should be impossible for Elves and Orcs, but possible for Men. Dwarves are a maybe? The petty dwarves of the First Age are pretty evil.

1 thought on population growth - depending on how grim you want your campaign, it should be a superhuman task to get Elven populations to actually *grow*, and difficult at best to just stay even. Maybe certain buildings or characters can stem the outflow? Maybe the presence Galadriel could keep Elves from leaving?

Also related to population growth - races with low population growth should not recover manpower as quickly as other races. There simply aren't enough young men being born to come into the ranks. This should also make elves, Dwarves and Dunedain careful about engaging in wars of attrition.

1 thought about the creature populations living in uninhabited lands. Maybe there should be an occasional event for regions bordering empty territory where the creatures wander over and haunt a region, causing verious maluses depending on type. Some creatures could be rooted out with troops, while others may need a a brave hero, i.e. a character interaction, with some risk of death.

Then you could have a character interaction like "send to mercenaries", except renamed "send adventuring", also with possible risk/reward.

A might be more immersive to add/delete/change some trade goods. Dwarven cities could produce Weapons Tools and Beautiful Objects. Dorwinion might have Dorwinion Wine (better than the usual). Easterlings would have the Steppe horses. And so on.

Anyway, these are a few things I was considering. Hope I didn't ramble on too long.

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

@Blood Royal
Tyranny should probably be reworked for Sauron/Witch King. Fell creatures expect Tyranny. On the other hand, Dunlendings and Wainriders might not be so keen, even if they are allied to Sauron. **Remember, Morgoth and SAuron never trusted Men, because men ahd free will, unlike the orcs who were essentially unredeemable.**

Conversion/Assimilation - 1 point to think about in your "melting pot" events is that when a Dunedain marries a Middle Man, you are not just losing a Dunedain, but you are raising up a Middle Man pop. So each conversion should result in two Lesser Dunedain, no? Also, a Daleman should be able to assimilate to Bree or Haradrim.

Probably some religious conversion should be impossible for Elves and Orcs, but possible for Men. Dwarves are a maybe? The petty dwarves of the First Age are pretty evil.

I'm pretty sure that these possibilities can only be made possible via events. There is no way to made normal assimilation or conversion that affects only specific cultures/religions. I think that is also true for tyranny/agressive expansion.

 

[AegonTheUnready]

Oh, that's too bad. I just started playing playing I:R a little while ago, didn't know what limitations the engine had.

 

[AegonTheUnready]

@Blood Royale possible bug

I started playing around with Dale. They have a female ruler at start, but she is called King. Should that be changed to Queen?

 

[Stars_and_Bars]

There's something I noticed while playing as Moria. For most of the underground caverns/halls you can get from one to the other without going through the uninhabitable passes, but you can't get to any other territory in Shathur-dum from territory 3758 (I assumed there'd be a path to 3760) but you can go from 3758 in Shathur-dum to 3701 in Kapul-Doraz. Is this Intentional or a bug?