[MOD] Jewish Immersion

[Mouthwash]

Version 1.02

Fixed some bugs I missed (thanks to someone called Flint - I don't know if he's on the forums here). Also, I've altered some terrain in the Levant and changed province culture to Bedouin in northern Arabia, southern Jordan and the Sinai. Finally, Aswan is now Egypt's sole Nubian culture province instead of Bahariya.

 

[Furuderikas]

Loving this! There's only one thing missing in my eyes - would you consider adding Beta Israeli as a culture and expanding content for Ethiopian Jews?

 

[Mouthwash]

That doesn't seem worthwhile. This is meant to be a light mod; others can build on it if they wish.

 

[Rams95]

Hi! I love how you've made the game more historically accurate. I have previously manually installed tons of mods in my CK2 files, so I was wondering if you have an specific ticket or name tag from which you have modified each file. This would help me to manually copy and paste the text without erasing data from other mods.

For example, in the 00_cultures file, I deducted that your modifications refer to the Israelite cullture group. Therefore I've copied and pasted everything within the corresponding brackets into my game's corresponding 00_cultures file.

 

[Mouthwash]

No, but you can use a file comparison to see everything I've done.

 

[damanamana]

Since 1.02 changes some of the map, is this mod still compatible with the converter?

 

[Mouthwash]

I've never tested that on any version. They were just changes of terrain types (e.g. desert into mountain).

 

[AEWHistory]

I have a question: If I were inclined to futz around with the holy sites, where would I find them? I looked in the religion file but I don't see them. I am thinking of changing Alexandria back to Sinai for the remainder of the current game I am playing.

Many thanks for the wonderful mod!

As an aside, I think maybe I started my current game with an earlier version of your mod. I was playing around with mod options the other day and all of a sudden the holy sites changed on me. It was odd. I lost 10 MA...... crap!

 

[Mouthwash]

The holy sites are in landed_titles.

 

[AEWHistory]

Thanks very much! I was finally able to look at the file with the holy site info and it is much more complex than I thought. You've clearly put some work into this. Do you have a place to take contributions?

Anyway, this is beyond me for now. By any chance do you have the earlier version with Sinai still as a holy site laying around still? Perhaps I could just take use the older holy sites while keeping everything else up to date? At some point I will take the time to learn the scripting for Paradox. I know it isn't complex, but when you're starting at damn near zero it looks intimidating.....

EDIT: So I think I figured out a way to edit the file without having to learning the script. I could just copy and paste! However, can i alter the install that is being used from Steam? I haven't installed the files, per se, and browsing the local files for CK2 makes it seem like the mod isn't installed.... but it is.

I am probably making this tougher than it should be.....

 

[Mouthwash]

Thanks very much! I was finally able to look at the file with the holy site info and it is much more complex than I thought. You've clearly put some work into this. Do you have a place to take contributions?

I very much doubt modders are allowed to. But it is flattering.

Anyway, this is beyond me for now. By any chance do you have the earlier version with Sinai still as a holy site laying around still? Perhaps I could just take use the older holy sites while keeping everything else up to date? At some point I will take the time to learn the scripting for Paradox. I know it isn't complex, but when you're starting at damn near zero it looks intimidating.....

EDIT: So I think I figured out a way to edit the file without having to learning the script. I could just copy and paste! However, can i alter the install that is being used from Steam? I haven't installed the files, per se, and browsing the local files for CK2 makes it seem like the mod isn't installed.... but it is.

I am probably making this tougher than it should be.....

Don't use the Steam version. Use the attached file in the OP.

As for editing, all you have to do is move 'holy_site = jewish' (and also 'holy_site = karaite' if you want) to another title and that is the new location.

 

[Idhrendur]

I very much doubt modders are allowed to. But it is flattering.

For what it's worth, they actually recently changed the rules to allow for donations.

 

[AEWHistory]

I very much doubt modders are allowed to. But it is flattering.



Don't use the Steam version. Use the attached file in the OP.

As for editing, all you have to do is move 'holy_site = jewish' (and also 'holy_site = karaite' if you want) to another title and that is the new location.

Thanks so very much! I thought for sure this was more complex than it was, but even I managed to not screw it up!

As an aside, why did you take out the Samaritans? Were they not 'good' enough to make the cut? Seriously, bad jokes aside, they were still a substantial community in the 8th century, at least by Jewish standards.

If Paradox did change the rules and you end up setting up something to take donations please let me/us know. I'd like to thank you for the time you put in to represent us. It is clear we weren't gonna get some lovin' from Paradox.

 

[damel]

Could you give me some pointers on how to reconcile Jewish Immersion with CPR+? The mod looks delightful and I'm looking forward to using it, but I'd need to create a compatibility patch first and I'm not quite sure where to begin.

 

[Mouthwash]

Thanks so very much! I thought for sure this was more complex than it was, but even I managed to not screw it up!

As an aside, why did you take out the Samaritans? Were they not 'good' enough to make the cut? Seriously, bad jokes aside, they were still a substantial community in the 8th century, at least by Jewish standards.

They're an ethnic group more than a religion. I don't know of any Jewish-Samaritan conversions and they certainly shouldn't be a heresy.

If they had had a much larger historical presence, I'd have made them a separate religious branch of Judaic (formerly Hebrew), and converted a couple provinces in Israel to it. But even then there's no way to provide them holy sites that are both realistic and balanced.

Could you give me some pointers on how to reconcile Jewish Immersion with CPR+? The mod looks delightful and I'm looking forward to using it, but I'd need to create a compatibility patch first and I'm not quite sure where to begin.

No clue, sorry. It isn't my area of knowledge and I don't know what that mod does.

 

[AEWHistory]

They're an ethnic group more than a religion. I don't know of any Jewish-Samaritan conversions and they certainly shouldn't be a heresy.

If they had had a much larger historical presence, I'd have made them a separate religious branch of Judaic (formerly Hebrew), and converted a couple provinces in Israel to it. But even then there's no way to provide them holy sites that are both realistic and balanced.

Thanks for all of the help with the mod. I've been able to do everything and keep my game going. I'm now toying with the idea of adding some stuff of my own. I'll let you know how that goes. Out of curiosity, can the holy sites be weighted in any way? For example, Jerusalem should hardly carry the same weight as Sinai, Semien, or any other Jewish holy site for the matter. Same for other religions.

I just wanted to add that I think I can help you with the Samaritans. They're not really an ethnic group per se, although I suppose they could be defined as such. To put it another way, if you'd consider them an ethnic group then all the Jewish sub groups would end up with that definition (eg- Ashkenazi, Mizrachi, Sephardi, Beta Israel, Kalimi, Bukharan, Mountain Jews, and a bunch of others.). OTOH, Judaism itself is a ethno-national religion, so Samaritanism can be defined the same way.

However, the Samaritans are genuinely separate from Jews in the practice of religion, albeit with a lot of overlap. Most importantly, they were a very sizeable community--perhaps larger than Jews--in the 6th/7th centuries or thereabouts. Granted, this was right before the game time frame, but Muslim leaders still feared Samaritan revolts enough to continue intense persecution of the Samaritans into the 9th or 10th centuries, perhaps later. This is a strong indication that they maintained a still sizeable, if much reduced, presence into the centuries preceding the High Middle Ages. If you'd like I'll check my library and see if I've got any handy sources that cover this information. In any event, while I understand why you removed them, I disagree with your reasons for removing them, save for the point about holy sites; I cannot dispute that being a problem.

 

[Mouthwash]

Thanks for all of the help with the mod. I've been able to do everything and keep my game going. I'm now toying with the idea of adding some stuff of my own. I'll let you know how that goes. Out of curiosity, can the holy sites be weighted in any way? For example, Jerusalem should hardly carry the same weight as Sinai, Semien, or any other Jewish holy site for the matter. Same for other religions.

You could probably change the weight for holy sites in general but I doubt there is a way to give each one a different value. Try looking at the wiki though.

I just wanted to add that I think I can help you with the Samaritans. They're not really an ethnic group per se, although I suppose they could be defined as such. To put it another way, if you'd consider them an ethnic group then all the Jewish sub groups would end up with that definition (eg- Ashkenazi, Mizrachi, Sephardi, Beta Israel, Kalimi, Bukharan, Mountain Jews, and a bunch of others.).

Not really? They reject some fundamental Jewish canon (they don't even like King David), most Jewish religious thought of the past two millennia, and have their own separate legal system. The only difference between (say) Polish Jews and Yemeni Jews are holidays, certain prayers, and some medieval Rabbinic rulings.

Most importantly, they were a very sizeable community--perhaps larger than Jews--in the 6th/7th centuries or thereabouts. Granted, this was right before the game time frame, but Muslim leaders still feared Samaritan revolts enough to continue intense persecution of the Samaritans into the 9th or 10th centuries, perhaps later. This is a strong indication that they maintained a still sizeable, if much reduced, presence into the centuries preceding the High Middle Ages. If you'd like I'll check my library and see if I've got any handy sources that cover this information.

Even if you're right, I would prefer my mod to remain small. Others can build on top of it if they want (personally I don't feel up for adding a new full-fledged religion).

 

[AEWHistory]

You could probably change the weight for holy sites in general but I doubt there is a way to give each one a different value. Try looking at the wiki though.

Good idea, I'll check that out. Thanks again

Not really? They reject some fundamental Jewish canon (they don't even like King David), most Jewish religious thought of the past two millennia, and have their own separate legal system. The only difference between (say) Polish Jews and Yemeni Jews are holidays, certain prayers, and some medieval Rabbinic rulings.

That's my point as well. That doesn't make them a different ethnic group however, that makes them a different sect, religion, or in game terms a heresy (I agree that that is a poor choice of nomenclature). Like I said, you can argue about their ethnicity, but where they overlap with and/or reject Jewish law is a matter of religious identity and the sects that religions inevitably form. Case in point: French Huguenots and French Catholics are both French, but they follow different sects of Christianity. The same is true here. Samaritans and Jews are both, largely, of Israelite/Hebrew extraction and both follow Israelite religion, but the sects that they follow are different. See my point?

Even if you're right, I would prefer my mod to remain small. Others can build on top of it if they want (personally I don't feel up for adding a new full-fledged religion).

That's fine. I just wanted to ask and offer my help. If I get to the point where I get good enough at modding that I can do this--and have the time after this semester--I'll try my hand at doing this if you'd like.

 

[Mouthwash]

That's my point as well. That doesn't make them a different ethnic group however, that makes them a different sect, religion, or in game terms a heresy (I agree that that is a poor choice of nomenclature). Like I said, you can argue about their ethnicity, but where they overlap with and/or reject Jewish law is a matter of religious identity and the sects that religions inevitably form. Case in point: French Huguenots and French Catholics are both French, but they follow different sects of Christianity. The same is true here. Samaritans and Jews are both, largely, of Israelite/Hebrew extraction and both follow Israelite religion, but the sects that they follow are different. See my point?

That is not the case; their identity is defined by the sect they follow. Both groups accept that they are a separate people (in fact Judeans considered them to be non-Israelites as early as the Babylonian Exile).

 

[AEWHistory]

That is not the case; their identity is defined by the sect they follow. Both groups accept that they are a separate people (in fact Judeans considered them to be non-Israelites as early as the Babylonian Exile).

I typed up a very long reply but decided to trash it. I appreciate what you've done and the work you've put in so that we are better represented in this game. Consequently, I really don't want this thread to turn into a fight and begin to spoil something positive you've created.

That said, I will leave it at this: I think you have your mind made up and for some reason have chosen to stop accepting help. This is where the saying 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' comes from. People assume they know more than they do, until they learn just how much they really don't know. As for me, I didn't get a PhD in history by mailing in stickers from cereal boxes. So while you have a good knowledge of history, it is clear that you're missing key nuances, such as how identity is constructed. At first I was merely curious about some of your decisions and then I had hoped to help. Since you seem to know all you want to know then I will say,
Best of luck in the future.