There's probably some fertile ground in the Myrmidian faith for the Estalian/Tilean/Unified sects.
[MOD] Geheimnisnacht - Warhammer Fantasy
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I'm not saying that the human pantheons can't have heresies in the mechanical sense of CK2, I'm saying that the word "heresy" in the context of Warhammer is usually associated with the ruinous powers.
Because humans are idiots. :laugh:
I know this an indivual opinion that come from my personnal interpretation of warhammer, but when I ran some WFRP I always tried to emphasize the difference in mindset beetween the various species in life and in religion too.
So for instance human cults are fertile ground for extremist sects because humans debate endlessly about the nature of the gods, magic and reality itself. More importantly they debate scriptures, translations, interpretations, history, etc... Tilea and Estalia are a prime exemple. They worship the same Godess yet, have been fighting each other since forever because they can't agree where she was born. Humans are also enormously hindered by the fact they speak different languages wich open the door to many misstranslations.
On the other hand Elven Loremasters know very well, or at least have a pretty damn good idea of the nature of reality, magic and gods. They also make a dissociation beetween history and mythology that may seem completly contradictory to a human mindset. Things that would be ground for heresy in a human religion, just make perfect sense to elves. They are just mystic that way.
As for dwarves they don't really "know" like elves know but to them the very idea that their ancestral lore could be false or wrong is simply inconcievable. Words written and given are sacred to them. They might be missinterpreted sometimes but never doubted or changed.
For instance I could see a heresy for the Cult of Asuryan that believes that the burning of Malekith actually was intended to show his favor.
It make no sense whatsoever to me, but maybe it is because I don't know enough about Malekith. Where would such belief come from ? :unsure:
I'm not saying that the human pantheons can't have heresies in the mechanical sense of CK2, I'm saying that the word "heresy" in the context of Warhammer is usually associated with the ruinous powers.
Yes, and I'm saying you're wrong about that
Wolfenburgians believe that there are only two gods: Sigmar, the benevolent deity, who created the human soul; and a dark god, an evil deity, who created the world as a form of prison for those souls.
Jemarists believe that Ranald created the other gods as a grand, cosmic joke.
The Doorkeepers believe that anyone who can deny Morr his due should be put to the sword, regardless of whether they are necromancers or doctors.
Notice how none of these heresies has anything to do with the ruinous powers?
And there are many, many more.
I would disagree that the elves are somehow closer to the gods than humans. Look at the split between Asur and Asrai over the worship of Isha. The Asur believe the Everqueen is the one true representative of Isha, while the Asrai believe Ariel is. If elves can have a schism of belief like that, There's no reason why they couldn't have view considered "heresies" as well. And it is the same with Dwarfs.
It's a reference to the End Times fluff
Regarding the dwarves, there is some material on something you could call a "heresy" among the ones living in Norsca in the supplement to WFRP- Tome of Corruption. Norscan Dwarves cult is said to have developed differently to that of their "mainland" kin. Their versions of gods and ancestors are supposed to take greater interest in the art of war and be associated with frost and ice. Even though they didn't succumb to the Ruinous Powers, some of their religious customs seem rather odd to their southern cousins and betray Norscan influence. They also originate from the same splinter group that Chaos Dwarves came from- the ones that were more open minded towards the study of the kind of rune magic that other dwarves considered too unorthodox. This led to the exodus of the ancestors of the Norscan and Chaos Dwarves in order to avoid conflict. I think that suggests that there is some room for a sort of religious differences among the dwarves that can be brought out by the heresies mechanic.
Yes, and I'm saying you're wrong about that
Wolfenburgians believe that there are only two gods: Sigmar, the benevolent deity, who created the human soul; and a dark god, an evil deity, who created the world as a form of prison for those souls.
Jemarists believe that Ranald created the other gods as a grand, cosmic joke.
The Doorkeepers believe that anyone who can deny Morr his due should be put to the sword, regardless of whether they are necromancers or doctors.
Notice how none of these heresies has anything to do with the ruinous powers?
And there are many, many more.
But aren't thoses usually described as extremists sects instead of "heresies" ?
The divide beetween the elves cultures has less to do with religion and more with history and politic. Sure now they their religious views have drifted away significantly but the original disagreement was not religious in nature. At least not as far as I know.
But aren't thoses usually described as extremists sects instead of "heresies" ?
Nope, they are explicitly listed as heresies.
Yes the original divide was, but if a political divide could precipitate a religious divide of this kind, it stands to reason that the elves aren't so different from humans in that regard.
Random question but warhammer lore related. Were all the norscans under ruinous power influence? I've just read through most of the gotrek and felix series but they really don't touch on Norsca.(although id love to start a kingdom on albion and somehow find a way to "civilize" the island). I think I remember reading that there was one dwarf karak up there that hadn't fallen(or if it did it was very recently). I need to reread the series.
Not all of Norsca is directly worship chaos gods, but their local gods are often the chaos gods under a different name, although sometimes they are simply nice Norscans, and there are a few Dwarf Holds in Norsca, but they speak a different language due to isolation, but have not been reduced to chaos dwarf levels. As for Albion, it was an Empire colony for a bit after a retconned(?) campaign.
Yeah, Norscans aren't quite as under the thrall of the ruinous powers as the hordes found in the chaos wastes, but they'll still join an Everchosen's host, etc. Norse Dwarfs, on the other hand, don't worship chaos at all, but are still different from their southern cousins.
Albion will not feature in the mod as in 2010 IC no one knows it exists or has any way to reach it (due to magical mists preventing anyone from coming or going from it).
A lot of Norscans worship gods or spirits which are just Chaos gods or daemons in a thin disguise. Norscans in general also consider a claw or tentacle growing out of your chest to be a sign of luck and fortitude
However, most of them also worship everything. A forest, storms, a cave, a cool-looking mountain, their ancestors, a famous battlefield, anything. This might actually help mitigate the power of Chaos over them, since if they're worshipping a benign (or non-existent) deity, Khorne can't tell them to go eat someone.
A lot of them also worship the gods common in the south. Ulric, Ursun, Tor, Taal are popular, because they're big beefy strong nature gods, which the Norscans understand and respect. They don't like Verena (because that's too fancy/civilised) or Morr (because they have a completely different idea of what happens to dead people) and they think worshipping Sigmar is a bit odd.
The south-coast Norscans are the least Chaos-crazy, but they still love raiding and looting the Old World. When a Chaos Lord invites them along on an invasion, they might not be doing it to bring glory to the Dark Gods or to try and destroy the planet, they do it because they need the money, or it sounds fun. In some cases they might not want to go to war at all, but are forced to on pain of extermination by their bigger, meaner neighbours.
However, most of them also worship everything. A forest, storms, a cave, a cool-looking mountain, their ancestors, a famous battlefield, anything. This might actually help mitigate the power of Chaos over them, since if they're worshipping a benign (or non-existent) deity, Khorne can't tell them to go eat someone.
A lot of them also worship the gods common in the south. Ulric, Ursun, Tor, Taal are popular, because they're big beefy strong nature gods, which the Norscans understand and respect. They don't like Verena (because that's too fancy/civilised) or Morr (because they have a completely different idea of what happens to dead people) and they think worshipping Sigmar is a bit odd.
The south-coast Norscans are the least Chaos-crazy, but they still love raiding and looting the Old World. When a Chaos Lord invites them along on an invasion, they might not be doing it to bring glory to the Dark Gods or to try and destroy the planet, they do it because they need the money, or it sounds fun. In some cases they might not want to go to war at all, but are forced to on pain of extermination by their bigger, meaner neighbours.
Yeah, Norscans can be hard to pin down. Most of their fluff development has amounted to "they're vikings that worship chaos." But it's a bit of sliding scale of how chaos-y or viking-y they are. This is further obscured by the whole "unreliable narrator" thing GW loves to do with all their sources. How much of the chaos worship is just because those are the ones that the rest old world interacts with regularly (kinda like how Christians viewed the actual vikings)?
However, of all the chaos hordes, they are my favorite.
However, of all the chaos hordes, they are my favorite.
We've discussed it a bit, but haven't come to any real conclusions. Do you think there are any faiths that would merit being able to reform?
Ulric?
The wolfy wolf faith is in decline in the face of Sigmar in the empire because it's not as organised, right?
The wolfy wolf faith is in decline in the face of Sigmar in the empire because it's not as organised, right?
The cult of Ulric is organized; it even has an high priest or some such( Who's also an imperial elector IIRC ) in Middenheim. I'd say that an high priest implies organization as he is high priest of something. Ulric is just not as popular a Sigmar, because well, Sigmar founded the Empire. Kinda like how Sigmar is not popular at all in Tilea or Estalia due to their backstory with Myrmidia.
Yeah, Ulric is in decline, but they're quite organized with priestly and holy orders.
The only faith I could see having a reform at the moment is the Horned Rat, as it's the middle of the 2nd skaven civil war in 2010 and there's no recognized religious authority. However, that could be just as easily be done by making the religious head work like the caliphate.
The only faith I could see having a reform at the moment is the Horned Rat, as it's the middle of the 2nd skaven civil war in 2010 and there's no recognized religious authority. However, that could be just as easily be done by making the religious head work like the caliphate.
I just remember that the Fanatic Source for Mordheim, Relics of the Crusade, mentioned a sect within the imperial knights, born during the Crusades :
Could eventually be an sigmarite heresy, in case of conquest of Araby.
Could eventually be an sigmarite heresy, in case of conquest of Araby.
Well the crusade against Araby has already occurred at this point, so I don't see why couldn't just be a sigmarite heresy at the start.
What's interesting though is the Serpent stuff as there's quite a few links between Sotek and Sigmar.
Well, I think that there are already plenty of sigmarite heresy in WFRP sourcebooks (or elsewhere, I have some White Dwarf with rules and fluff about conflicts between religious contenders within the Empire), so I'm not sure a mere artefact description could be useful, but more fluff is good, especially obscure one.
Maybe nehekharan religion? If you conquer all cities you can become supreme king and priest for all bony and wrapped guys out there? Although that would probably require to also kick Nagash's butt.
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