[MOD] Geheimnisnacht - Warhammer Fantasy

[illathid]

I was wondering whether there are going to be any heresies for the Old World religions? Like the traditionalists and antisigmarites Sons of Ulric, mentioned in the books of the 2nd edition of the RPG, or the cult of Stormfels? And what about darker norscan versions of Ulric and Manann- Olric and Mermedus are they going to be simply part of the Norscan Gods religion or heresies of the imperial ones?

Yeah, I believe we have a few heresies for each of the old world religions. I don't recall the specific ones right now though.

Yeah, we also have a Norscan religion for the southern norscans who worship Ulric, Ursun, Stormfels, etc. as well as the ruinous powers.

 

[jebezt2]

Can we expect a release by the end of the year or early 2015?
Sorry for being so impatient.

 

[Blood Royal]

Can we expect a release by the end of the year or early 2015?
Sorry for being so impatient.

A release date is something we'll have to discuss internally, but if we keep up at the pace of the last 2 months i would say that "early 2015" might be realistic.

That said, the WoL expansion has been a serious set back, since some of the rules of event-writing and modding were changed, and we'll have to spend a lot of time reworking stuff that was already considered working (including every single event I've made since joining this team)

 

[Le Passant]

Yeah, I believe we have a few heresies for each of the old world religions. I don't recall the specific ones right now though.

Will Gorlaz be in the game as a Dwarven heresy ?

 

[illathid]

Will Gorlaz be in the game as a Dwarven heresy ?

Actually, I've never heard of Gorlaz, and nothing shows up on Lexicanum either. Source?

 

[Le Passant]

This false dwarven ancestor appears in WFRP 2nd edition, in the Karak Azgal supplement.

It's actually a Slaanesh cult, created after a ambitious Dwarf found an unknown altar Under Karak Azgal and became a Chaos cultist. He created Gorlaz to hide his true purpose.

However, I realize that the cult is fairly new, probably not more than 200 years. If we consider that the book is set in 2522-2523, as the vast majority of WFRP2, it would be outside of the mod's scope. But I don't think there is any precise date in the book.

 

[illathid]

This false dwarven ancestor appears in WFRP 2nd edition, in the Karak Azgal supplement.

It's actually a Slaanesh cult, created after a ambitious Dwarf found an unknown altar Under Karak Azgal and became a Chaos cultist. He created Gorlaz to hide his true purpose.

However, I realize that the cult is fairly new, probably not more than 200 years. If we consider that the book is set in 2522-2523, as the vast majority of WFRP2, it would be outside of the mod's scope. But I don't think there is any precise date in the book.

Ah, I've not read the Karak Azgal supplement in depth. That may be next on my list.

Still, regardless of time frame that may be a good one to put in the files. There wouldn't be any characters/provinces with it at the starts, but it could show up if the ancestor gods' moral authority got too low.

 

[Le Passant]

I think it can be a good way for dwarves to have another, less "clean", religion without falling in an all-out Chaos frenzy.

The book establishes that only the two head of the cult (and four guards) know the truth, but all the other dwarves are truly convinced that Gorlaz is an old, forgotten ancestor just rediscovered.
The cult revolves around the accumulation of gold and dwarf artifacts, and the preservation of the ancestors creations. EXTREME preservation : none but dwarves must possess dwarf work. Pilgrimages consist to search such artifacts in the ruins of Karak Azgal, to pay hommage to the ancestors.

I totally see a dwarf crusade, led by a powerful Gorlaz cult, against the Empire to reclaim Ghal Maraz and the RuneFangs. Human blasphemers !

Question (on a larger scale than the mod) : if a Chaos cult hide behind another cult but the majority of its member do not know the truth, is it truly a Chaos cult ? As long as the corrupted heads of the religion remain Slaanesh pawns, the god can probably reclaim the devotion, but what if there is no "true cultist" left ?
If all the devotion is for Gorlaz, without anyone knowing about Slaanesh, wouldn't it allow the birth of a new, legitimate god ? I wonder...

 

[unmerged(816543)]

If I remember correctly Karak Azgal was not the best recieved WFRP2 book. It felt a bit like some WFRP1 material that did not take into account the modifications of the 2nd edition. There was some weird and inconsistant stuff in there.

So if this "Gorlaz" is actually a Slaanesh cult, it should probably be covered by secret cultists mechanics, not be an independant heresy. In fact aside from this Gorlaz guy, I've never heard of anything that would fit as a heresy for dwarves. So maybe they shouldn't really have any. Non-humans religions should feel different and reflect the various mindsets of the many species of the warhammer world.

Of course there is always Hashut the Father of Darkness, but I think his cult is so far removed from the Dwarven Ancestors that he could be considered a wholy different religion. He also fit more under the Chaos group than as a Dwarven heresy.

 

[Le Passant]

If I remember correctly Karak Azgal was not the best recieved WFRP2 book. It felt a bit like some WFRP1 material that did not take into account the modifications of the 2nd edition. There was some weird and inconsistant stuff in there.

Probably not the best, it's true.
I don't remember many inconsistencies, except for the dwarf priestess who can use magic, but it was retconned in another book (Tome of Salvation ? Realm of Sorcery) as a rumor.

Fact is that the cult is not hidden, but the true power behind the devotion is not known by its members (except for 6 crazy guys).

edit : oh, well, there is an Elf Liche, a highly intelligent troll and plenty of undead dwarves, but that's nothing special.

 

[Roeben]

I believe Dwarves are near incorruptable and therefore they have no heresies... ...for as long as they can stay a continuous society. Once you split a smaller portion off and isolate it under the right circumstances, you get the Chaos Dwarves.

 

[unmerged(816543)]

I believe Dwarves are near incorruptable and therefore they have no heresies... ...for as long as they can stay a continuous society. Once you split a smaller portion off and isolate it under the right circumstances, you get the Chaos Dwarves.

Its not that they are completly incoruptible. Its more that their "religious mindset" is very different from the human religions and allmost incompatible with the concept of heresy.

Actually humans I think are allmost the only peoples in the old world to make such a fuss of religion and where the concept of heresy can truly exist. Dwarven Ancestors worship is really all about honor and proper respect, not zeal and witch hunt. Elves are mystic and weird. Its near impossible for a non-elf to understand elven spirituality and they don't really make distinction beetween wizardry and priestly magic either. Halflings don't really care much about it, and I've always seen their so called religion more as collection of folk tales and legendary figures poorly understood by humans scholars.

I've also argued a few pages ago why the concept of chaos heresy make no goddamn sense to me so I won't get back to that. But the cults of the Horned Rat and Hahsut don't leave much room for heresy either. So do Gork & Mork, at least for orcs. Goblins have been known to worpship weird things when on their own and the Night Goblins cult could definilty be an heresy of G&M.

Anyway, heresies can be cool and all but I'm not sure trying to shoehorn them where they don't belong is really worth it. Especially if it is to end up with the kind of lame vanilla CK2 heresies whith no features.

 

[Galloglasses]

Just dropping by, how are things going for this mod? Anywhere close to a beta of any sort?

 

[Blood Royal]

Just dropping by, how are things going for this mod? Anywhere close to a beta of any sort?

If it wasn't for the WoL expansion messing up our entire events folder with new scripting rules, I'd say yes

We've had a few MP games with the mod, and it's both playable and enjoyable at the moment though some critical stuff still needs to be added/tweaked.

 

[illathid]

Its not that they are completly incoruptible. Its more that their "religious mindset" is very different from the human religions and allmost incompatible with the concept of heresy.

Actually humans I think are allmost the only peoples in the old world to make such a fuss of religion and where the concept of heresy can truly exist. Dwarven Ancestors worship is really all about honor and proper respect, not zeal and witch hunt. Elves are mystic and weird. Its near impossible for a non-elf to understand elven spirituality and they don't really make distinction beetween wizardry and priestly magic either. Halflings don't really care much about it, and I've always seen their so called religion more as collection of folk tales and legendary figures poorly understood by humans scholars.

I've also argued a few pages ago why the concept of chaos heresy make no goddamn sense to me so I won't get back to that. But the cults of the Horned Rat and Hahsut don't leave much room for heresy either. So do Gork & Mork, at least for orcs. Goblins have been known to worpship weird things when on their own and the Night Goblins cult could definilty be an heresy of G&M.

Anyway, heresies can be cool and all but I'm not sure trying to shoehorn them where they don't belong is really worth it. Especially if it is to end up with the kind of lame vanilla CK2 heresies whith no features.

The problem I see with this view is that mechanically religions in ck2 don't work well without at least a few heresies. So from a pure gameplay view, we will probably need at least a few heresies for each religion regardless of how "appropriate" it may be for the religion in question.

 

[JonStryker]

Pagan unreformed religions don't have heresies. Why? Because that would totally mess them up.
Having heresies is not a must. I don't see a mechanics reason to add heresies.

 

[illathid]

Pagan unreformed religions don't have heresies. Why? Because that would totally mess them up.
Having heresies is not a must. I don't see a mechanics reason to add heresies.

Well, if you can't reform, and you have no heresies, Holy Sites and a religion's Moral Authority are absolutely useless.

But, then again I also think the meta-narrative of the warhammer universe is one of entropy, and I don't think there's any part of it that should escape it. So I guess I think lore wise, heresies are a good thing too.

 

[Blood Royal]

Heresies are good in the sense that they add chaos to the equation, and chaos is an integral part of warhammer

That said, in fantasy mods where you can commune directly with gods, a lot of the vanilla style heresies seems a bit "off". A heresy of the Sigmar faith for example would likely involve some fringe ideology where they claim that Sigmar was just a man, not a god, or something drastic like that. Obviously heretical thoughts which our friendly neighborhood witch hunter would take great interest in hearing more about...

 

[unmerged(816543)]

The problem I see with this view is that mechanically religions in ck2 don't work well without at least a few heresies. So from a pure gameplay view, we will probably need at least a few heresies for each religion regardless of how "appropriate" it may be for the religion in question.

See I consider heresy to be one of the weakest religion mechanic in the game. It really doesn't add much and most of them are pointless because of the lack of features. At worst heresies can destroy a small realm because of terrible MA and constant religious revolts, but once you are big enough heresies dont do much beyond slightly annoy you.

Beside in Warhammer, when we speak of heresy, it usually imply chaos cults, wich I tought would be covered by your nice looking secret cultist system.

And has its been pointed out some vanilla ck2 religion don't have heresies like unreformed pagans and Indian religion. Thoses have other mechancial drawbacks however.

Heresies are good in the sense that they add chaos to the equation, and chaos is an integral part of warhammer

That said, in fantasy mods where you can commune directly with gods, a lot of the vanilla style heresies seems a bit "off". A heresy of the Sigmar faith for example would likely involve some fringe ideology where they claim that Sigmar was just a man, not a god, or something drastic like that. Obviously heretical thoughts which our friendly neighborhood witch hunter would take great interest in hearing more about...

The cult of Sigmar is probably the one where vanilla style heresy work best because it is the closest thing to an organized "book" religion from our world. There are some sigmar extremists who believe he is the One True God for instance. Some just claim he is the king of the gods. There are some Ulrican who deny the divinity of Sigmar too and there probably is some Vereneans who study sorcery a bit too close, Morr priests who know a bit too much about necromancy etc... Any kind of extreme interpretation can make a good heresy.

...

I just had an horrible idea writing this. Speaking of extreme lines of tought, there is allways thoses guys... I've allways thought they where a silly old concepts that didn't work akin to Malal, but the so called "gods of order" could definitly work as extremist heretic sects in game... And not giving them any special feature would be pretty damn perfect too...

 

[illathid]

The Tome of Salvation book for WFRP 2e lists lots of good heresies for each of the gods of the imperial pantheon, and most have nothing to do with the ruinous powers (on their face at least).

And if there's opportunity for that sort of heresy among human religions, I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible for the other warhammer races. It's not as if Asuryan is any more or less present in the world than Sigmar, etc.

For instance I could see a heresy for the Cult of Asuryan that believes that the burning of Malekith actually was intended to show his favor.