I like to suggest the possibility the ability offer tribute to avoid conflict with larger neighbours who are not allied or have no non-aggresive pact, and only if the neighbours have a higher title.
[MOD] EMF: Extended Mechanics & Flavor
- Thread starter zijistark
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
.png){kind=avatar}
Yeah, we've discussed this before -- we'd need to determine some decent AI reasoning for the other side, but it's a good idea.
- 4
Are there any plans for the addition of various Sufi sects and related events/mechanics?
Not currently. What did you have in mind and how would it come into play?
Some thoughts for Pagans. Most of what I did get for these faiths, I got by scanning Wikipedia. I do appreciate any and all help from those that are familiar for more ideas as to how to improve these faiths. If I get any more ideas I will add them to this list.
All pagans
Offering festivals: These will reperesent larger and more elaborate sacrifices to the gods and goddesses of your faith, or the faith of other pagans under your control.
You will get a decision to do a sacrifices, and you get to decide who and what you offering to. Are you making a sacrifice to Frey for Fertility or are you sacrificing to Perun for victory in battle, or to more local gods of the province for happiness in said province and so on.
When the priest comes back it can be clear or cryptic, but in either case the Gods have provided an answer to your question. Thus you gain a bonus, or rarely, a negative to your question. So again, if you asked for Perun to grant you victory then you get a bonus to troop moral, a bonus to fertility if you asked Frey for fertility and so on. The bonuses are not all that great but a nice bonus that can sway things. It is weighted in your favor if the priest is your friend, and against you if he/she is your rival and hates your guts.
Minor Offerings: These represent more minor offerings that can be done at almost any time. In contrast to the Offering festivals above, these would be to the Gods in general. In effect it would function like either the indulgence or Sadaqah decision, where you pay money(Goats, chickens, cows and horses are expensive) to perform a general sacrifice to gain piety. If reformed with a head of the faith, then you gain a bonus with them.
Learn Magic: From what I can find, it seems that a number of pagan faiths tend to be more highly appreciative of magic. Mages and other mystics had more of a role in their societies. Thus one should have the option to learn magic, be it Seidr or the rites of a shaman and so on. Now there might be cultural taboos for example(women are fine learn Seidr but men get a prestige penalty and a vassal penalty since it is unmanly).
If you have a court Shaman, Volva and so on, they might ask you to teach someone in your family who is suitable to learning the magical arts. Again cultural values matter here, still general concept should apply to most. You would also be able to seek out a wise shaman, Volva, and other mystic people of how like Indians can seek out a Guru.
Court Chaplin action – Perform Augury: This is a new action for the pagan court Chaplin. Where your Court Chaplin(what ever he or she is called) is sent to a province to perform Auguries, Divination, sacrifices and the like for the local people. In general it would function similar to the Muslim action of giving charity, so it helps over all lower revolt risk(the peasants like active priests doing sacrifices) with successes giving piety bonus or relations with a vassals; failure can make the peasants upset and mob the priest or embezzling money(goats, horses, and other animals cost money to sacrifice)
Slavic
Festivals: There should be some more festivals then the Jarlio festival. Thus:
Baltic
Festivals:
Snakes: Snakes seemed to be a highly auspicious creature among the baltic pagans from what I can find. They were honored and apparently kept around the home. I also read that the Vaidelutės who took care of the hearth also took care of these grass snakes. So perhaps some events related to them?
Heroic Cults: Pious Baltic Pagans should be able to be declared local gods or Goddesses. I believe that CK2+ has a sainthood, so using that mechanic should work for the baltic pagans.
Finnic
Festivals:
Reincarnation: It seems that the Finnic people believed in reincarnation so perhaps they should get a reflavor of the reincarnation event that Indians get.
Norse
Shieldmaidens: Martial women can seek to become warriors. This is something that IIRC is in CK2+ and I think it could be nice to have them in HIP.
Festivals:
All pagans
Offering festivals: These will reperesent larger and more elaborate sacrifices to the gods and goddesses of your faith, or the faith of other pagans under your control.
You will get a decision to do a sacrifices, and you get to decide who and what you offering to. Are you making a sacrifice to Frey for Fertility or are you sacrificing to Perun for victory in battle, or to more local gods of the province for happiness in said province and so on.
When the priest comes back it can be clear or cryptic, but in either case the Gods have provided an answer to your question. Thus you gain a bonus, or rarely, a negative to your question. So again, if you asked for Perun to grant you victory then you get a bonus to troop moral, a bonus to fertility if you asked Frey for fertility and so on. The bonuses are not all that great but a nice bonus that can sway things. It is weighted in your favor if the priest is your friend, and against you if he/she is your rival and hates your guts.
Minor Offerings: These represent more minor offerings that can be done at almost any time. In contrast to the Offering festivals above, these would be to the Gods in general. In effect it would function like either the indulgence or Sadaqah decision, where you pay money(Goats, chickens, cows and horses are expensive) to perform a general sacrifice to gain piety. If reformed with a head of the faith, then you gain a bonus with them.
Learn Magic: From what I can find, it seems that a number of pagan faiths tend to be more highly appreciative of magic. Mages and other mystics had more of a role in their societies. Thus one should have the option to learn magic, be it Seidr or the rites of a shaman and so on. Now there might be cultural taboos for example(women are fine learn Seidr but men get a prestige penalty and a vassal penalty since it is unmanly).
If you have a court Shaman, Volva and so on, they might ask you to teach someone in your family who is suitable to learning the magical arts. Again cultural values matter here, still general concept should apply to most. You would also be able to seek out a wise shaman, Volva, and other mystic people of how like Indians can seek out a Guru.
Court Chaplin action – Perform Augury: This is a new action for the pagan court Chaplin. Where your Court Chaplin(what ever he or she is called) is sent to a province to perform Auguries, Divination, sacrifices and the like for the local people. In general it would function similar to the Muslim action of giving charity, so it helps over all lower revolt risk(the peasants like active priests doing sacrifices) with successes giving piety bonus or relations with a vassals; failure can make the peasants upset and mob the priest or embezzling money(goats, horses, and other animals cost money to sacrifice)
Slavic
Festivals: There should be some more festivals then the Jarlio festival. Thus:
- Dziady: This festival was done twice a year once in spring and once in Autumn. This festival honors the dead. As a festival, you would invite your family members and vassals to come and partake in the festivities. At night there would be offerings to your decesed relatives and more feasting to remember their victories and seeking their aid.
- Kupala Night: A Summer festival. From what I can gather it involves couples doing bonfire jumping, finding fernleaves for good luck, power, and prosperity. Tossing Garlands down a river with candles on them seem to be something else that was done according to wikipedia.
Baltic
Festivals:
- Ilgės: The autumn festival of the dead. Offerings, libations, songs, and toasts were given to the dead.
- Rasos: Similar to Kupala Night from what I can tell. It involves feasting, sacrifices, jumping over bonfires.
Snakes: Snakes seemed to be a highly auspicious creature among the baltic pagans from what I can find. They were honored and apparently kept around the home. I also read that the Vaidelutės who took care of the hearth also took care of these grass snakes. So perhaps some events related to them?
Heroic Cults: Pious Baltic Pagans should be able to be declared local gods or Goddesses. I believe that CK2+ has a sainthood, so using that mechanic should work for the baltic pagans.
Finnic
Festivals:
- Karhunpeijaiset: A festival that can be done at any time to celebrate the successful hunt of a bear and wish the bear a quick speed back to the forest. There was a feast following which the bones would buried and the skull placed on a pine tree.
Reincarnation: It seems that the Finnic people believed in reincarnation so perhaps they should get a reflavor of the reincarnation event that Indians get.
Norse
Shieldmaidens: Martial women can seek to become warriors. This is something that IIRC is in CK2+ and I think it could be nice to have them in HIP.
Festivals:
- Yule/Winter Nights: This would be a festival that occurs in Winter. There would be Drinking and feasts and sacrifices.
- Dísablót: This is a late winter and spring festival around February or March, in honor of the Dísir, the female spirits of importance. There was feasting and sacrifices for the peace they had and victory that they would gain. With the festival came the market fair, known as the Disting.
- 11
- 2
Vyshan that looks fantastic! Great ideas there. Do you have any experience coding? I'd like to talk to you about adapting the Minor Offerings for Samaritans. Its a bit of a silly thing to be bothered by but I've already dabbled in some things but event and dynasty modding is kind of beyond me right now. I recently found out why my Sămerin(m?) culture ended up as Smiths. haha This new religious setup gives me so much to work with now as far as personally adapting things. But I still feel the Samaritans deserve at least some love, or just a very tiny presence.
Thanks. I haven't done much modding before, but I dabbled in it before. I am willing to give it a shot and perhaps upload it as a submod; who knows maybe it will be intergrated like the islamic stuff was into core HIP.
As for Samaritans. I honestly don't really know much on them, but they like every other faith IG deserves some flavor. Though this brings up a question as they are a jewish heresy. Should Jews if the third temple is restored revive the animal sacrifices?
I'll PM you, the short answer is yes. Samaritans should have it from the start and have no access to Hannukah events and or anything involving Talmudic studies or most post-exile practices. Jerusalem should be removed as a holy site, Nablus added, and the "Kingdom of Judea" would be their special localization for k_jerusalem. All pretty easy to do, just have to find everything that needs modifying.
As a Finn myself, I thought I'd share some thoughts (though my knowledge is limited to the peoples around the Baltic Sea).
Firstly, events related to bear hunting would be a great addition, since bears were holy animals. I'd suggest that the existing grand hunt events would be modified to a bear hunt event chain, and an event chain related to Karhunpeijaiset would then fire after a successful hunt. Your description of the feast is correct, but here's a few more details:
- Women weren't allowed to eat the bear. However sometimes a young maiden might get "married" with the bear, based on a belief that the tribe might be descended from or related to a bear.
- Being really drunk in the feast was unacceptable. During the whole feast the bear was respected and worshipped.
- To keep the bear from being angry when it's reborn, the hunters would sing and tell the bear that its death was an accident.
- The bears skull was placed on the tree facing east, and the bones were buried under the tree.
While the bear hunting is all good and correct, as far as I know reincarnation wasn't a part of Finnic beliefs. However, the spirits of ancestors were worshipped and people sacrificed to them in holy groves (called Hiisi in Finnish).
Finnish people also celebrated various feasts to ensure a good harvest, however the "Ukon juhla" which I recall being a part of the game already covers this. I could later see if I can suggest further flavour for the feast though.
I'd also like to talk about shamans in the various Finnic cultures. The most important job they had was healing the sick with magic rituals and spells. This can be nicely handled with the upcoming DLC, since it adds court psychicians. Shamans were respected for their great knowledge, which is why they also had religious significance. They could, for example, enter holy areas and communicate with spirits. In some cultures shamans even went into a trance and entered the spirit world. This was widely practiced in Lappland by the Sami.
Finally, I'd like to suggest adding a quite interesting feature of ancient Finnish culture in the game. In pre-Christian times, at least around the Baltic, Finnic peoples sometimes abandoned unwanted children, mostly bastards, in forests or swamps. These children didn't go to the afterlife, and were left as ghosts to haunt on Earth until they were blessed and their bodies properly buried. Brutal, I know, but I think it would be an interesting addition.
EDIT: I now checked the Ukon juhla events, which surely could use more flavour, especially magic. People thought that around Midsummer magic was at its strongest, and thus people would at that time see omens and predict the weather and harvest. Many spells were also used during the Midsummer night, most notably love spells by young unmarried women. During that time ghosts and evil spirits would also roam the Earth, and people believed that burning fires, along with drinking and making noise would scare the spirits away. Especially interesting spirits are "virvatulet", will-o'-wisps, which according to some beliefs marked the spot of treasure and burned brightly in the Midsummer night. I think finding a virvatuli and following it to find a treasure, get lost, or even die would make for a pretty cool event chain.
Last edited:
- 1
This one is very tricky. It's not really "Slavic" in origin. It was taken by the part of the Slavic/Slavinized population in certain ex-Baltic areas (mainly modern day Belarus, Polesia and Podlasia) from Baltic tradition (Ilgės). This is very local thing in general, hardly justified to make it all-Slavic one. West Slavic "Zaduszki" would be more appropriate. It's closely related but still quite different.
thanks for the info. As mentioned, I mainly used wikipedia for information. But this is defintly helpful. so thank you, I will be using it.
As for reincarnation, I mostly got that out of how I read the info on the spirit of bears going back to the forest to be reborn and thought that they also practiced reincarnation.
I'm glad to help. I too used mostly wikipedia, but naturally the Finnish version has more information with better accuracy. And hey, if you need help in the future, just ask me, I'll be happy to answer your questions.
I'm glad to help. I too used mostly wikipedia, but naturally the Finnish version has more information with better accuracy. And hey, if you need help in the future, just ask me, I'll be happy to answer your questions.
Will do. The biggest thing I personally see missing from HIP atm is more flavor of different areas. Since I like pagans, but a lot of them are bland currently HIP IMO. So that is where I want to try and improve right now, unless the EMF team gets their
I could separate post this, but I think it's all pertinent to EMF, so I'm putting it here:
Selling Claims, Titles/Holdings, & Trade Posts
I've always been bothered by the lack of options to non-violently transfer assets in game, especially in instances where it makes sense from both gameplay and historical points of view: e.g. Richard I selling Cyprus to the Templars; Charles of Anjou buying Maria of Antioch's claim to Jerusalem; innumerable instances of people selling castles, cities, and even whole counties, duchies, & kingdoms both within and between realms. (Of course, that last also brings to mind the unrepresented historical issue of single individuals holding fiefs under multiple overlords, like the Counts of Flanders and later Dukes of Burgundy in France & the HRE, or Henry Plantagenet in France & England, but that's sadly just an engine obstacle.) I started pondering this difficulty most recently during a republic game wherein I'm much more powerful than my vassal houses and want to give them a leg up for the good of the realm by transferring trade posts; it seems odd that there's no mechanic for me to sell the rights to a fellow patrician.
I have a hunch that the biggest challenge to any such proposed mechanic will be balance, especially around potential player exploitation. Costs would need to be balanced such that traditional methods (i.e. war) are still more preferable to constant buying & selling and there would probably need to be cooldowns flagged to transferred assets and maybe the involved characters too.
Having essentially no modding experience,—I've only done occasional save & history files modifications,—I don't know how feasible any of this is, nor how to go about implementing it. I'm sure it's something that's been considered to some degree before. Any comments from the EMF team?
Selling Claims, Titles/Holdings, & Trade Posts
I've always been bothered by the lack of options to non-violently transfer assets in game, especially in instances where it makes sense from both gameplay and historical points of view: e.g. Richard I selling Cyprus to the Templars; Charles of Anjou buying Maria of Antioch's claim to Jerusalem; innumerable instances of people selling castles, cities, and even whole counties, duchies, & kingdoms both within and between realms. (Of course, that last also brings to mind the unrepresented historical issue of single individuals holding fiefs under multiple overlords, like the Counts of Flanders and later Dukes of Burgundy in France & the HRE, or Henry Plantagenet in France & England, but that's sadly just an engine obstacle.) I started pondering this difficulty most recently during a republic game wherein I'm much more powerful than my vassal houses and want to give them a leg up for the good of the realm by transferring trade posts; it seems odd that there's no mechanic for me to sell the rights to a fellow patrician.
I have a hunch that the biggest challenge to any such proposed mechanic will be balance, especially around potential player exploitation. Costs would need to be balanced such that traditional methods (i.e. war) are still more preferable to constant buying & selling and there would probably need to be cooldowns flagged to transferred assets and maybe the involved characters too.
Having essentially no modding experience,—I've only done occasional save & history files modifications,—I don't know how feasible any of this is, nor how to go about implementing it. I'm sure it's something that's been considered to some degree before. Any comments from the EMF team?
- 5
Playing as paulican, as their mechanics look kick ass. I am independent and can't declare holy war on either my orthodox neighbours. I am an apostilic heresy and the mechanics say I can declare holy war on other christians. The option does not appear in the declare war screen to declare a holy war.
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something?
Can you add in a +20 "sibling" opinion modifier? What happening lately is that all siblings hate the sibling that inherited the title, even if they aren't pretenders. This is because of a -20 "title claimant" opinion modifier.
Can you also make it so that "King of the Romans" doesn't show up in the character's name?
For example, "King of the Romans Henry of the Holy Roman Empire" sounds quite odd.
For example, "King of the Romans Henry of the Holy Roman Empire" sounds quite odd.
I definitely won't make siblings like each other THAT much more (sibling "rivalry" / not just happy-fun-family-times is half the fun of succession), but I've been considering adding some more "static" positive opinions between family members; we'll see what I draft-up first probably in my next beta snapshot (a few days probably).
"King of The Romans" is an SWMH minor title for the HRE [for the heir-apparent of the emperor only]. I'm not sure why it shows-up in the actual ruler name as if it were a ruler title; I don't seem to remember that. I will try to look into this soon.
Yep, definitely thought about this a lot. As a general mechanic, we just can't do this elegantly until/if our moddability request/suggestion for diplo-decisions which allow targeting of 3rd-party titles or characters (e.g., in the style of Grant Landed Title and Take Concubine, respectively-- Arrange Marriage actually requires 2 3rd-party characters) becomes a reality.
We could have, say, a title decision on your own titles that's like "Sell Fief" which then pops-up an event that tried to find people willing to buy it nearby, but in reality, it'd be pretty clunky and annoyingly ineffective, particularly since it doesn't make much sense for most AIs to buy it (nor would they _currently_ ever have the comprehensive AI reasoning necessary to buffer-up THAT much gold, for a fair price). And then, as you say, there's further all the questions about AI reasoning for willingness to buy/sell at what price.
I always thought that perhaps a title decision of 'Buy Claim' might be doable with current capabilities, whereby you can buy (transfer with money) claims off old, destitute women, etc. that will never be able to press them or otherwise pass them on. This also occurred historically in quite a few relevant scenarios, although TMK, it wasn't until much later in the period that this started to become acceptable practice (idea that claims were property that could be sold).
Last edited:
- 1
Thanks for the detailed response Ziji. I know you'll just be guessing, but how hopeful are you that PDX will implement the necessary modability mechanic in the upcoming expansion patch? I get the historicity quibble on claim buying; ideally mechanics like that could shift over time (and late 11th century Byzantine honorary titles wouldn't be available in the 9th!), but given the scope of the timeline this is a mechanic I'd rather have as an early game anachronism than a late game conspicuous absence.