[MOD] EMF: Extended Mechanics & Flavor

[zijistark]

If this is for purely historical reasons, and you're asking for flavor events that pop up describing religious unrest, I think that's beyond the scale of this mod. That would be something that you'd find in VIET Events, extremely minor things that don't do much other than maybe give you +1 Prestige every now and then or a 3% chance to become Paranoid. For you VIETerans out there, you know what I'm talking about.

I disagree that the described behavior is beyond the "scale" of EMF. It is not the style of EMF. As a general rule, we go to great lengths to limit the number of essentially useless pop-ups (including reducing the number of vanilla ones, either through conversion to notification tab events or through obsoletion). We feel that repetitive and unnecessary pop-ups are the bane of immersion (which is why cybr split Immersion from Events in VIET) from a game design standpoint, and they also make it more difficult/annoying to play multiplayer as well as slow singleplayer campaign progress (and we want you to go for hundreds of years-- to write a saga-- rather than short campaigns).

EMF's scale is indeed very thorough and ambitious.

If we wanted there to be some sort of pagan unrest mechanic (I don't think we do[1]), we wouldn't limit it to pagans but would make it a general religious mechanic and a more natural part of the game, rather than something that inundated you with more popups (whenever possible).

[1] The reason pagans are easier to convert and more difficult with which to convert organized religions is because, by definition, they have no unified holy scripture or an organized religious [power] structure. This consequence is reflected well in history, because, well, pagans did convert much more easily and readily than those that already subscribed to organized religions, and they basically never succeeded or even cared to convert entire county majority populations -- not even vs. other pagan religions for the most part (pagans converting pagans was more like the consequence of migration and settlement of various pagan groups).

 

[zijistark]

Maybe not unrest, but would be nice if the pagans kinda gave some resistance from both lords and people. I notice that when christian lords trying to convert the pagan population in a county theres almost no resistance.

While I personally don't see a historical problem with the conversion of majority pagan populations (for pagans moreso than those of organized religions, adding Christian structure to their more vague pagan belief system was fairly natural, especially after the ruling class had "converted"), I do agree that Demand Religious Conversion diplomacy interaction with vassal infidels is too lax.

This is for a number of reasons, some of which can be tweaked by modding without losing the vanilla/traditional diplomacy interaction entirely and some of which cannot. E.g., right now, the temporary opinion bonus due to subjugation is a bit high (currently vanilla at +40 for other-religion and +75 for same-religion); it should be more like +25 or even +20 for other-religion (and less as well for same-religion). Further, the Demand Religious Conversion diplomatic interaction thresholds for Yes/Maybe/No could be made to be more likely to give a Maybe/No instead of the frequent Yes that they currently give.

 

[theKing1988]

[1] The reason pagans are easier to convert and more difficult with which to convert organized religions is because, by definition, they have no unified holy scripture or an organized religious [power] structure. This consequence is reflected well in history, because, well, pagans did convert much more easily and readily than those that already subscribed to organized religions, and they basically never succeeded or even cared to convert entire county majority populations -- not even vs. other pagan religions for the most part (pagans converting pagans was more like the consequence of migration and settlement of various pagan groups).

And the reason why Pagans never succeeded or even cared about converting entire provinces was because Pagans had a more ethnic approach to religion, whereas Monotheistic religions had a Universalistic approach to religion. Well apart from Judaism to a certain extent of course.

Pagans never saw the need to convert outsiders because they fully accepted that different cultures had different gods.

 

[zijistark]

RE: Gender Equality.

Any chance of a "gender equality lite?" Or some additional fine control there. I like being able to have women command armies and be councilors, as well as being able to grant titles to them, but do not like the default absolute cognatic. I find that the AI is not good enough at making matrilineal marriages when it has a female ruler.

We can't do anything about the fact that AI females don't arrange marriages very well under Absolute Cognatic Succession, but that is the only way to allow females to be granted titles. If you're willing to give that up, then we could create a "only council and command" mode that didn't convert all [appropriate] realms to Absolute Cognatic but did the rest-- would be fairly easy.

 

[zijistark]

... was because Pagans had a more ethnic approach to religion, whereas Monotheistic religions had a Universalistic approach to religion. Well apart from Judaism to a certain extent of course.

Well put. Re: the Judaism bit, I'd argue that Jews still had a very Universalistic approach but simply had the unique 'religious property' of a lack of zeal in terms of other peoples' belief systems. Monotheism is pretty fundamentally a rather strong statement that, ideally, everybody would believe in such a religion, because, well, there's only one God.

 

[Caoimhin]

And the reason why Pagans never succeeded or even cared about converting entire provinces was because Pagans had a more ethnic approach to religion, whereas Monotheistic religions had a Universalistic approach to religion. Well apart from Judaism to a certain extent of course.

Pagans never saw the need to convert outsiders because they fully accepted that different cultures had different gods.

This. I've taken a few classes concerning the subject of culture and religion (anthropology major FTW) and Christianity, Islam (possibly to a lesser extant), and Buddhism (as well as a fourth I can't recall, although it wasn't Judaism) are the "universal religions". This means that different cultures have adapted them to their own use and interpetation over time and are NOT required to have specific locations in the world to have meaning. Christanity will perpetuate even with Rome or Constantinople, for example, being under control by non-Christians. The same goes for Islam, it may seem like they require Mecca or Medina or Jerusalem, but none of the most basic PRACTICES of the religion require them. A Muslim could still face the direction of Mecca no matter what. Buddhism is the subject of SO much syncretism that need not be explained.

Hinduism on the other hand has VERY specific holy locations and rites tied to them integral to a wider ethno-religious connoctation, the Ganges River epitomizes this. It is not a universal religion, but what is actually termed an ethnic religion. (and is also NOT polytheistic either but something unique) The same goes for Judaism, Jerusalem has very specific meaning to it and in exile or otherwise the Holy Land holds meaning. (I am speaking of the religion as a whole, I am fully aware that I may be incorrect in regards to certain sects) Samaritans are an excellent example of one of these religions as well, they cannot do without Mount Gerizim. Their practice is tied with this mountain, they are bound to its value.

 

[Caoimhin]

Well put. Re: the Judaism bit, I'd argue that Jews still had a very Universalistic approach but simply had the unique 'religious property' of a lack of zeal in terms of other peoples' belief systems. Monotheism is pretty fundamentally a rather strong statement that, ideally, everybody would believe in such a religion, because, well, there's only one God.

I apologize for the double post but I must commend this observation that monotheism is a VERY strong statement. However, there is evidence that is discussed amoung archaeologists and anthropologists of a pantheistic development in Judaism early in its development. Also, there are much more philosophical branches that have no requirement for God as an actual figure at all.

 

[Teutonic_Thrash]

Hinduism on the other hand has VERY specific holy locations and rites tied to them integral to a wider ethno-religious connoctation, the Ganges River epitomizes this. It is not a universal religion, but what is actually termed an ethnic religion

You say that, but large parts of maritime and mainland Southeast Asia have converted to Hindu beliefs at some point.

 

[Caoimhin]

You say that, but large parts of maritime and mainland Southeast Asia have converted to Hindu beliefs at some point.

This is true. But even so, Hinduism is still very much confined to a select number of places around the world. It may still have a very large number of adherents, but the importance of place and ethnicity is very hard to separate. Islam for example has adherents among ethnic Chinese, Persian, Turkish, and Indic as well as others. (the animosity between India and Pakistan is largely religious) You could cite examples all day about exceptions, with Judaism as well, I even made a note that I was fully aware that differences could be found. But you can't cite that as proof that a religion isn't tied to ethnicity and place more so than another. South-East Asia is not so far flung from India, and I never claimed that the ONLY ethnicity that was tied to Hinduism was Indic.

Ethnic religion basically means any religion that gains predominance primarily through birthrates and rarely gains converts or even attempts to. Its a term that doesn't see a lot of use outside anthropology and other cultural studies I think. Its not meant to be taken literally as one religion to one ethnicity. (even if it sometimes does follow that pattern) Mormons are also technically an ethnic religion one could argue, even if they do seek out converts. They believe that God's Kingdom is physically going to be in the U.S. Shinto is a better example of an ethnic example. Although the Japanese are more superstitious than religious, they are mostly areligious. They have no religion, but they go through the motions in other words, in order to honour tradition.

I found an excellent map of religious distribution and a definition for both terms:
http://www.lewishistoricalsociety.com/wiki/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=168

 

[Harald Fairhair]

And the reason why Pagans never succeeded or even cared about converting entire provinces was because Pagans had a more ethnic approach to religion, whereas Monotheistic religions had a Universalistic approach to religion. Well apart from Judaism to a certain extent of course.

Pagans never saw the need to convert outsiders because they fully accepted that different cultures had different gods.

Some pagans did work to keep new religion away. Good exsamples is the converting of Danmark and Norway to Christianity, because Christianity is more sentered around the king it meant the vassals lost more power (wich is something most of them did not want). The pagan religion tied the people to the cheif, but Christianity to the King. The cheifdans worked hard to keep christianity away, but some did also use it to raise his posision. The reason the old gods faded was because men saw the oppertunity to raise their power within a more orginized religion.

 

[StarlightTW]

Some pagans did work to keep new religion away. Good exsamples is the converting of Danmark and Norway to Christianity, because Christianity is more sentered around the king it meant the vassals lost more power (wich is something most of them did not want). The pagan religion tied the people to the cheif, but Christianity to the King. The cheifdans worked hard to keep christianity away, but some did also use it to raise his posision. The reason the old gods faded was because men saw the opportunity to raise their power within a more orginized religion.

If one is looking at things in a purely pragmatic sense. You must also keep in mind that all conversion didn't happen due to pragmatic reasons, though this is what is oft-discussed in history. Actual belief played a role as well, and not 'just' among the lower classes.

 

[theKing1988]

Some pagans did work to keep new religion away. Good exsamples is the converting of Danmark and Norway to Christianity, because Christianity is more sentered around the king it meant the vassals lost more power (wich is something most of them did not want). The pagan religion tied the people to the cheif, but Christianity to the King. The cheifdans worked hard to keep christianity away, but some did also use it to raise his posision. The reason the old gods faded was because men saw the oppertunity to raise their power within a more orginized religion.

I didn't say anything about whether they resisted new religions amongst themselves. I said that they never cared about what people elsewhere believed

My thoughts on the matter of whether they should resist more or not and how this translates into game mechanics are broadly similar to what Ziji has expressed on this page and the last page

 

[richvh]

I read in the VIET thread that EMF will be taking over and revamping the Survey Realm event chain. Has this been done yet, and may Lux Invicta make use of the revamped version? We're already using the old VIET version.

 

[zijistark]

I read in the VIET thread that EMF will be taking over and revamping the Survey Realm event chain. Has this been done yet, and may Lux Invicta make use of the revamped version? We're already using the old VIET version.

This is correct. We are still in the process of [greatly] expanding it. AnaxXiphos is in charge of the project. At some point in the future [after it is released with EMF for a bit], we may consider allowing Lux and other mods to use it. I haven't discussed this with Anax, though.

 

[bontanel]

This is correct. We are still in the process of [greatly] expanding it. AnaxXiphos is in charge of the project. At some point in the future [after it is released with EMF for a bit], we may consider allowing Lux and other mods to use it. I haven't discussed this with Anax, though.

I'm actually really curious. What is the actual fututre of EMF. What new mechanics do you hope to work on/create?

 

[zijistark]

I'm actually really curious. What is the actual fututre of EMF. What new mechanics do you hope to work on/create?

The best ones.

We have plans for lots of things, but as modders, we just have to be agile and a) work on what interests us at any given time, b) adapt our limited time to the most important and/or readily-moddable projects available with the current engine status at any given time.

 

[bontanel]

The best ones.

We have plans for lots of things, but as modders, we just have to be agile and a) work on what interests us at any given time, b) adapt our limited time to the most important and/or readily-moddable projects available with the current engine status at any given time.

You don't want to spoil it for us, gotcha.

 

[Ganegrei]

We can't do anything about the fact that AI females don't arrange marriages very well under Absolute Cognatic Succession, but that is the only way to allow females to be granted titles. If you're willing to give that up, then we could create a "only council and command" mode that didn't convert all [appropriate] realms to Absolute Cognatic but did the rest-- would be fairly easy.

Works for me.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Ziji thank you...still stuck on an old version of EMF but it works wonders for me...

If you want a coder to help, Ive done this for erm...well TOO long [very too long] lol very..pm me or ask here if so..Im 33 according to local clubs [pnaaargh] 49
Coded for Civ IV till we all got bored of it
Don't give a shit according to hrvatska gf ..whatver ..

Anyways I have `free` time so if u need help bell me

I test code for a living btw

Oh and play piano 2nd isnt relevant but more fun

 

[Saintrl]

This is correct. We are still in the process of [greatly] expanding it. AnaxXiphos is in charge of the project. At some point in the future [after it is released with EMF for a bit], we may consider allowing Lux and other mods to use it. I haven't discussed this with Anax, though.

Omg, you're bringing it back yes. Do we get to see the pilgrimage events return after this too? And maybe not just for Christian religions for that matter.