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AnaxXiphos

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If there is some way to incorporate these factions into an overall scheme to limit royal authority, I say, implement them. Even though they shouldn't act in any parliamentary-type way with regular faction meetings and votes, perhaps a more dynamic system could arise in which the nobles collectively present demands to the king in exchange for their continued loyalty. The Glory faction could push for a declaration of war against an enemy that would not be convenient for the King, or the Faith faction could demand the expulsion of the Jews, even if the King were more tolerant of them. The King should then have to risk the ire of those vassals by ignoring their petitions (and consequently their opinion, taxes, and levies) or give in, but at the cost of undermining his own authority.

Of course, this wasn't very fleshed out or well-thought out, but it is, in my mind, the best way to both present a challenge to the player as well as make gameplay more immersive.
This isn't really the direction we're currently headed in. We don't want to treat them as proper factions with demands and things, but rather as loose affiliations of people with similar interests. Their usefulness is that we can tie your actions as ruler to diverse opinion effects rather than just slapping a -10 to vassal opinion on everything and leaving it at that. They won't demand that you go to war (which would probably be a nightmare to actually implement in any way beyond just being upset if peace lasts too long) or expel the Jews, but they might very well approve of you doing those things. Or dislike those very same things. And with each group having a different list of things they like and dislike, it will hopefully be impossible to make them all happy, which could easily lead to proper factions demanding things and starting wars.

That said, we are talking about various supporting mechanics. If we go this route, we'd definitely be hijacking things like the "burghers asking for city taxes to be lowered" from vanilla and probably adding other similar mechanics.

One issue I can see with making these factions so minimal is that it doesn't seem to allow the player as a vassal to have much influence over the politics of the realm. I appreciate that the player shouldn't have too much power when playing as a vassal but it seems like there should be some way to influence the way the faction acts, I think caocao268's suggestion that the factions should be able to make some demands for their obedience seems sensible but in that case a player vassal should be able to influence whether ultimatums are sent and how they are sent. Have you thought of any way to allow player vassals more interaction with these new factions?
These wouldn't replace other factions, so a vassal would still have all the same options they had before. As I mentioned above, these wouldn't be proper factions in the sense that they're getting together and making decisions. It's more of a way of tracking opinions so a realm isn't quite so homogenous. Player vassals would presumably be able to pick whichever faction best represents their interests, and if we do add any supporting mechanics, they'd get to interact through those as well.
 

caocao268

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This isn't really the direction we're currently headed in. We don't want to treat them as proper factions with demands and things, but rather as loose affiliations of people with similar interests. Their usefulness is that we can tie your actions as ruler to diverse opinion effects rather than just slapping a -10 to vassal opinion on everything and leaving it at that. They won't demand that you go to war (which would probably be a nightmare to actually implement in any way beyond just being upset if peace lasts too long) or expel the Jews, but they might very well approve of you doing those things. Or dislike those very same things. And with each group having a different list of things they like and dislike, it will hopefully be impossible to make them all happy, which could easily lead to proper factions demanding things and starting wars.

That said, we are talking about various supporting mechanics. If we go this route, we'd definitely be hijacking things like the "burghers asking for city taxes to be lowered" from vanilla and probably adding other similar mechanics.



These wouldn't replace other factions, so a vassal would still have all the same options they had before. As I mentioned above, these wouldn't be proper factions in the sense that they're getting together and making decisions. It's more of a way of tracking opinions so a realm isn't quite so homogenous. Player vassals would presumably be able to pick whichever faction best represents their interests, and if we do add any supporting mechanics, they'd get to interact through those as well.
I understand what you're saying. My idea was more for flavor's sake, and I get that it would be very difficult to code given the amount of benefit one gets from it. As long as these political alignments can produce the inherent instability that plagued so many medieval realms and effectively halted any efforts at centralization, I'm all for a more minimalist but still far-reaching approach.
 

zijistark

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I understand what you're saying. My idea was more for flavor's sake, and I get that it would be very difficult to code given the amount of benefit one gets from it.
To be clear, you're referring to the idea about the [Prestige/Glory] faction potentially demanding that the liege declare war on an enemy, right? That's to what Anax was referring when he said "(which would probably be a nightmare to actually implement in any way beyond just being upset if peace lasts too long)."

The reason that's hard & the reason we wouldn't do it are separate matters. Reason it's hard: Script would have to know which CBs were valid, who were plausible targets per CB, and whether the war could reasonably be accomplished based upon relative power estimates. The first of those (CB evaluation) would be pretty ridiculous (although this is just a modding limitation). Primary reason we wouldn't do it: we don't want to make more out of these type of factions than is plausible. Let me explain the latter for the sake of the general audience here.

What I mean by that (plausibility of faction demands for this style of faction):

The notion that a group of all vassals affiliated solely upon the basis of preferring prestigiousness to piety or wealth (in the example case) would actually meet together under the pretext of only that loose/subtle/implicit affiliation and somehow come to a consensus which leads to a kill-or-be-killed ultimatum vs. their liege . . . it's kind of silly, if you think about it. With standard factions (or perhaps some other kind of association which could lead to revolt over a particular issue), it makes more sense, because the faction's purpose (e.g., deposing an anti-pope) is what binds the vassals together, and they don't need to vote or anything parliamentary like that for their purpose to come to fruition.

'Glory' or 'Prestige' isn't a purpose but instead simply a value, the primary one for its faction's "members." Pretend we're vassals in some large medieval realm like the Persian Empire. You and I might both highly value <favorite political issue here>, and if we chatted about it enough over time and came to know enough others that value it in the same way, we might risk losing our heads sending an ultimatum to and potentially marching upon our liege about <favorite political issue here>. However, if we both just happen to value Prestige over Piety and Wealth, that's a really weird pretext for uniting in rebellion on its own. However, value-oriented groupings could be very useful for assigning liege opinion due to liege actions / outcomes of their rule (and then letting alignment along purpose fall where it may).

If you add voting and make essentially a legal institution out of the faction (like a political party, except essentially and perpetually treasonous by definition of monarchy/feudalism), that changes things. I will note that I don't _hate_ the idea of voting about things a value-oriented faction can do; it can be viewed as an abstraction of consensus just as the standard faction system can. You do really need a way around the 'treasonous political party' bit, though. [The HRE had a few, limited legalistic ways around this, although they are the exception.]

As long as these political alignments can produce the inherent instability that plagued so many medieval realms and effectively halted any efforts at centralization, I'm all for a more minimalist but still far-reaching approach.
I think this potential addition (emphasis upon potential) falls more into the category of adding depth to play than inherently promoting instability. Not that I don't want to promote realm instability. ;)
 

Jamey

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I've been away from CK2 for a long while, and I'm thinking of plunging back in.

Is EMF based on PB? I did a quick skim and it looks like a lot of PBs changes are included. I'm particularly wondering about the crown law changes in PB that I always liked. If not, is EMF compatible with PB?
 

zijistark

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I've been away from CK2 for a long while, and I'm thinking of plunging back in.

Is EMF based on PB? I did a quick skim and it looks like a lot of PBs changes are included. I'm particularly wondering about the crown law changes in PB that I always liked. If not, is EMF compatible with PB?
EMF is PB's successor. Some of the old PB has been washed away. Some remains. Most is just new or retrofitted. The basic crown law configuration is the same.
 

Jamey

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EMF is PB's successor. Some of the old PB has been washed away. Some remains. Most is just new or retrofitted. The basic crown law configuration is the same.
Sounds good. I'll give it a spin when I get back into CK2. :)
 

zijistark

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Mmmm, I just love how it is/going to be compatible with VIET. <3
Mmmm... Hot, nude EMF + VIET immersion...

I also approve.
 

AnaxXiphos

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Time to tease my upcoming EMF feature (click to get larger screens and laugh at my ancient CRT screen resolution):



Also, why would you put a child into the oubliette? You big meanie:



Not shown: You can also move prisoners out of house arrest or the oubliette and back into the regular dungeon. These options are limited to players. The AI will continue to manage their prisoners through the accommodation request events. Speaking of those request events: Players will no longer get them at all unless they're from another player or an AI prisoner has been held for over ten years. More control, less event popup spam, everyone wins. (Except poor little Frirek.)
 
Last edited:

loup99

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Oh, those are really great!
 

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More control is great! However I also like AI prisoners begging for clemency as it gives me a chance to crush their hopes or remind me that I meant to ransom them 10 years ago.
 

AnaxXiphos

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More control is great! However I also like AI prisoners begging for clemency as it gives me a chance to crush their hopes or remind me that I meant to ransom them 10 years ago.
Fair enough. I made a slight adjustment: Players can still beg anyone, and AI can still beg other AI at any time; but now AI can also beg players after they've been imprisoned for at least ten years. (Nobody can beg if they're already under house arrest or in the oubliette, which is the same as in vanilla.)
 

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I want to restrict succession to elective for the Byzantine Empire the same way it is for the HRE. How do I do that in the succession decision file?
 

zijistark

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I want to restrict succession to elective for the Byzantine Empire the same way it is for the HRE. How do I do that in the succession decision file?
You want to mod it? Well, even if you do mod it, you'll have to pass the law at least once.

First off, be careful in there. decisions/succession_laws.txt is tremendously easy to screw-up. Anyway, look for the title = e_hre references in the file-- all of them refer to places where you need to make that an or = { title = e_hre title = e_byzantium } (figuratively speaking-- the form might be a bit different in places). Basically, you block all other succession laws but succ_feudal_elective in the potential clause for the laws for those titles.

Then, to seal it up, run an event like:

Code:
namespace = pravus

character_event = {
  id = pravus.1
  hide_window = yes
  is_triggered_only = yes

  option = {
    name = OK
    e_byzantium = { add_law = succ_feudal_elective }
  }
}
 

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The relevant portion of succession_laws seems to have been: "not = { title = e_hre }" which I then changed to "not = { title = e_hre = e_byzantium }" in the modules folder. I then re-installed HIP and checked HIP's succession_laws to make sure it had changed, and it had.

I then created a .txt file in the events folder and simply copy-pasted what you indicated.

Doesn't seem to have worked... how badly did I muck it up? :D
 

zijistark

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... which I then changed to "not = { title = e_hre = e_byzantium }" ... how badly did I muck it up? :D
You wanted:

Code:
not = { title = e_hre title = e_byzantium }
You had title = e_hre = e_byzantium. Intended code (above) is equivalent to:

Code:
not = {
    title = e_hre
    title = e_byzantium
}
Which is what you want. (The 'not' is best read as 'nor'.)

Oh, and you need to actually run event pravus.1 on the console.
 

Pravus

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Okay thank you. Bear with me now, but I typed "event pravus.1" into the console and received "unknown command"...?

EDIT: My bad I left out the "t" in event. :confused: Seems to be working swimmingly thanks!
 

zijistark

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EDIT: My bad I left out the "t" in event. :confused: Seems to be working swimmingly thanks!
Let me tell you, I've never, ever made such a silly mistake as mistyping 'event' in that decrepit CK2 console where the visual cursor doesn't even align with the actual text position. :ninja:

Glad that your modification is working as designed. Elective Byzantines FTW.

Never hesitate to ask for help with something like this.
 

zijistark

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Hey, mates. I thought that I'd touch base with everyone and offer a glimpse at some of the new, Extended Mechanics & Flavor coming your way:
  • A completely brand spankin' new siege module that greatly outclasses our old siege events from PB, thanks entirely to the diligence, perseverance (the engine fought us hard on this one), and creativity of AnaxXiphos.
    • Much, much more flavor-- most importantly, coherent flavor that covers many different types of scenarios and much less of the annoyingly repetitive kind.
    • Much more realistic captures upon successful siege (understands the difference between looting a settlement and consequences of organized siege/assault during a real war, finely-tuned individual character escape chances, and so much more)
    • Proper AI strategy to avoid players being able to rush-assault an enemy capital in a war and instant, anticlimactic 100% warscore.
    • Much more that Anax will show you next week.
  • Succession wars [Initial working version complete but on hold regarding further iteration at the moment]
    • Upon succession, face a chance of a claimant to your primary title rising against you with their supporters among your vassals. Like most real succession wars, the action against you will be swift and deliberate will take mere weeks before pretenders' armies begin organizing to move against you.
    • If a pretender of your dynasty prevails against you, the previous ruler abdicates all of his/her titles to the pretender, and your new character becomes the once-pretender. Even if he is an ambitious, envious, or arbitrary (but certainly no craven) member of a dynastic cadet branch of the true royal family, at least you know that enough of your vassals think he's the Real Deal.
  • Crown law / crown authority overhaul
    • EMF already completely rewrote PB's demesne laws, giving them mathematical properties that allow for maximal and yet still accessible strategic choices. Now it's time for the crown.
    • Long-needed reform of the PB crown law system to feature the advantages of a vanilla-style crown authority slider (myriad strategic and technical reasons) along with the traditional advantages of PB-style laws, which allow you to individually choose/configure the specific laws (or lack thereof) of each of your crown titles.
    • Crown authority, rather than specific laws, will again matter to your vassals in a model that rewards maximal centralization of power with the monarch, however you should choose to exercise it, far more than previously and manages to do so while still being simpler to understand overall (something that is also of great benefit to AI performance).
    • Crown Authority can be thought of as the "constitution" or "precedent of power" while laws like King's Peace (Internal/Complete), Protected Inheritance, and Title Revocation (Limited/Infidels) are the configurable implementation of that precedent of authority.
    • The Autonomy Faction will be disbanded as a result of this work and replaced with a realm-wide, purpose-based conspiratorial faction to reduce crown authority.
    • The new crown authority faction, unlike the AF, will actually pose a consistent threat to you and more correctly model the continued struggle between nobles and monarchs over the authority of the crown. Yet, the advantages of striving for high crown authority will be too great to forego.
    • Succession law requirements will be revised as part of this work.
    • Crown/succession laws will generally be more strategic rather than the relative sandbox that they are now.
  • Command veteran mechanics
    • Military commanders, through major victories in combat/tactics, will distinguish themselves from the crowd with 4 tiers of command veteran traits.
    • Generals at the highest tiers, also through major victories, will occasionally prove themselves the champion of the realm and earn a weak or, under some circumstances, possibly even a strong claim upon their top liege's title.
    • Generals earning claims will be more common in realms with high regard for military leadership such as the Byzantine Empire.
    • Finally, in combination with the succession war module, we'll come closer to modeling such dynamics as the rise of Alexios Komnenos.
  • Achievement traits
    • When a character achieves something that's unusual and interesting (although it may not always be by choice!), they'll be rewarded one of a growing list of possible character "achievement" traits.
    • Though they should be relatively rare to find (as they underscore something exceptional), an interesting part of such a character's life will be told in the backstory of these traits.

While we've got more on our minds, that's sufficient glimpse for now. This developer needs to get back to coding.