[MOD] EMF: Extended Mechanics & Flavor

[zijistark]

I'm still playing Pre CM version of HIP.
I'll wait till CM gets a decent patch from P.I

Good plan. Both HIP for 2.1.6 and CKII 2.1.6 are a hell of a lot more polished and top-notch quality than HIP for CM and CM itself right now and will stay that way for a couple more [rapid] releases yet. In 2 weeks, I'd give HIP for CM a strong stamp of approval assuming the base game is also patched well during that period. This stage of major DLC transition is quite painful, I must say. Still, though, I'm working major changes into the mod during this time of chaos. Hopefully people will still have a chance to notice them and not have them get lost in the 1000s of unlogged changes we're making for the compatching.

I'd like to make a point about the size of armies the small centralized kingdoms are able to rise...
They are most of the times huge...
At the start of the game Castille in a war with Leon was able to field 7000 me...(too much for me)
I'm not sure if this feature is only for AI???
Cause I always play at Very Hard...
Sometimes I think the game is quite easy for seasoned players,especially with that kind of armies...

Cheers...

It's not an AI feature. Smaller realms are relatively badass, esp. if they have a ruler with great vassal opinion. They will never field more troops than a larger realm with the same average vassal opinion, though. It's simply nonlinear. The properties of its curve were designed with a very specific methodology in mind that I intend to document at some point, along with some graphs of the curve and its property curves as a function of realm_size (total holdings in realm). Then we can more effectively talk about tuning the curve to have more desirable properties. There is, no doubt, much room for improvement upon its shape. At some point in the future, I promise to fully present this to you guys in a manual-like form. I'm far from done optimizing the curve, especially since it has two different versions-- one for SWMH, which is stretched out over larger holding counts, and one for vanilla, which drops-off a bit quicker with increasing realm_size.

I seem to remember before there was talk of a special muslim CB to aid the reformation of large realms after a previous realm dissolved due to decadence or overextension. Is this still on the cards?

It is still an idea that's on the table, yes. As are all the other things we discussed as possible Muslim extensions. I've been personally getting into Muslim play myself now that I've made it more interesting (IMHO) in EMF, so we'll definitely see more improvements for Islam specifically and also generic mechanics that can be used worldwide but are simply emphasised more for Islam.

Can't wait for CM and HIP to be relatively highly-polished again after the big patch. Then I can get back to innovative, brand new feature implementation more easily. There's so many roads EMF wants to pave.

 

[G.Strategos]

Good plan. Both HIP for 2.1.6 and CKII 2.1.6 are a hell of a lot more polished and top-notch quality than HIP for CM and CM itself right now and will stay that way for a couple more [rapid] releases yet. In 2 weeks, I'd give HIP for CM a strong stamp of approval assuming the base game is also patched well during that period. This stage of major DLC transition is quite painful, I must say. Still, though, I'm working major changes into the mod during this time of chaos. Hopefully people will still have a chance to notice them and not have them get lost in the 1000s of unlogged changes we're making for the compatching.

It's not an AI feature. Smaller realms are relatively badass, esp. if they have a ruler with great vassal opinion. They will never field more troops than a larger realm with the same average vassal opinion, though. It's simply nonlinear. The properties of its curve were designed with a very specific methodology in mind that I intend to document at some point, along with some graphs of the curve and its property curves as a function of realm_size (total holdings in realm). Then we can more effectively talk about tuning the curve to have more desirable properties. There is, no doubt, much room for improvement upon its shape. At some point in the future, I promise to fully present this to you guys in a manual-like form. I'm far from done optimizing the curve, especially since it has two different versions-- one for SWMH, which is stretched out over larger holding counts, and one for vanilla, which drops-off a bit quicker with increasing realm_size.

Good to know mate...
Cheers...

 

[KaiserRichter]

Is this currently compatible with the latest version of Project Balance?
Hypothetically speaking, would this work with PB and High Kings & Consuls?

 

[loup99]

Is this currently compatible with the latest version of Project Balance?

Well atleast previously, it required PB to work. Would be ironic if the two were incompatible with eachother, especially in the HIP modular pack.

 

[zijistark]

Is this currently compatible with the latest version of Project Balance?
Hypothetically speaking, would this work with PB and High Kings & Consuls?

Yes, EMF's compatible with PB. I don't know anything about High Kings & Consuls.

 

[zijistark]

Update on marathon of changes for CM in HIP:

- Much wider scope of changes needed than we initially thought.
- The current version of HIP really is a true alpha release, as the next version will be about 200 hours of work removed from it. Current version is broken for a number of important CM functions (see: broken realm_decisions.txt in PB), sadly, although it works fine on the vanilla map in a pre-CM gameplay sense and does feature *most* of CM.
- The next version of HIP will target CKII beta patch 2.2.0.1 but remain theoretically backward-compatible with 2.2. [But you definitely want to opt-in to the beta, as it stands right now. Once the next version of HIP is released in a few days, that is. Until then, it won't work with HIP without manual modification.]
- Planning for a release on Monday or Tuesday, but it'll be done when it's done.
- EMF will have a completely new landed_titles used in the next release (2.01) when not used with SWMH. Could make EMF 2.00 saves incompatible with EMF 2.01, though unlikely, and this will just have to be an accepted part of 2.00 being an alpha release for what was essentially an alpha base game release. In the future, EMF version numbering scheme will be such that a release such as the current one will actually be styled 2.0-RC1 (Release Candidate 1) so as to avoid any confusion over alpha status and how that may potentially affect savegame-compatibility.
- EMF will feature the vanilla Charlemagne major decisions for forming the HRE, forming the HRE early, and other tribal feudalization decisions (unlike PB, which will continue to use the old HRE formation mechanics, etc.)
- EMF has combat changes, education changes, religious authority changes, demesne law changes.
- SWMH will have proper starting technology distribution (currently broken)
- SWMH will feature all tribal mechanics (tribal holdings have been ported, old-style tribal titles converted)
- SWMH will work properly w/ Ibadi as a non-heretic branch of Islam and will have Zun holy sites.
- Starting troops for scripted wars are currently completely off-kilter due to undocumented changes in the math for calculating size of spawned event troops from scripting commands. This will be amended.
- Magyar migration decision has issues for the mess it leaves behind in the Steppes that will be fixed.
- EU4 converter will now automatically have an auto-generated EU4/HIP support mod installed in EU4 mod folder for usage with converted games.
- EU4 converter will work.
- CPR and ARKO may or may not be included in imminent release (IDK yet) but will certainly be in the NEXT NEXT release, which will come within a week of the NEXT release, which will come within a few days.
- 128,256,512 other fixes, changes, tweaks, and upgrades all for the great betterment of the mighty HIP nation, most of which are totally undocumented just to keep you on your toes (and because we're a secretive, occult brotherhood).

 

[Ritmas]

So I used the beta updated method or w/e, and the problem is that there half of the worlds provinces not filled.

 

[zijistark]

So I used the beta updated method or w/e, and the problem is that there half of the worlds provinces not filled.

This, the middle of a compatch for a new DLC and an ongoing first beta patch for CM, is one of the rare times that the beta is not considered 'expected stable.' There is too much rapid change occurring in it to endorse usage of it until EMF 2.01 is released, and that should be soon.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Ziji....you're as frantic as I used to be coding Civ IV major mods, I love it keep it up.....

Couple points....maybe Retinues could scale badly with Empire size a la you're levy code

E.g. [its fair but not typical] I won the WHOLE of Andulsia in a crusade [and yeah its was a real debaser for a while [pts for music triv..lol]] but it came through...I destroyed Andalusia created Leon, Portugale, and Castille and proceeded to revoke duchies and give then to my proto kings.....waiting for the new kingdoms to absorb like a sponge....

Anyways the point is, I now have 16.5k retinues ...they would be purely in numbers the 8th or 9th toughest kingdom on their own...never mind the fat that they can take any army out twice their size and laugh at it

Yes its a freak Empire [for me]. No the army leader isnt possessed or anything, hes home a home grown genius [17 yrs OLD !!], I SO wish was my successor, lets get all Gladiator Marcus Aurelius...lol

EDIT:btw non Charles The Grt DLC...I couldnt play on that ....THAT ugly map

 

[sanityismyvanit]

Un Chien Andalusia

 

[Sqwerlpunk]

With the new tribal mechanics and the reintroduction of decadence, there's an opportunity to rewrite muslim decadence mechanics to be more coherent and less "random guy invades because %".

Muslim is already "tribal friendly" in vanilla, as it appears Open succession overrides all, so the biggest drawback for tribes is removed. If you can keep that, implement a bonus to tribal gov't for decadence reduction, and tie the decadence event chains to actual tribal entities and not magically created people and troops, you'd have a much improved experience for gameplay, in my opinion.

Tribal muslims can be tied to military strength (as all tribals should be, to a degree) and easy decadence management, with drawbacks on vassal limit, tech gain, and law access for higher titles. The AI can probably be told not to bother with feudalization to keep behavior consistent (not much benefit for it anyway, for smaller powers). You could even just disallow Muslim Realms from reforming Tribal holdings in general, change the mechanic to fit (see below).

Feudal/Republican Muslims would have the opposite bonuses with long term trouble keeping decadence in check and weaker militaries, but much improved management of large realms and tech gain/spread, and ideally a low CPU cost method to tie relations to tribal vassals to decadence level, to a degree.

Then have high decadence result in feudal/republic vassals pursuing independence while Tribal vassals/neighbors get CBs for invasion and event troops along the lines of the new councillor missions or norse invasion troops. Ideally would result in Taifa type disintegration in fuedal areas/administrative centers, and rising tribal powers from the periphery re-establishing power bases.


Cost/work to implement would include map changes, though. Personally I'd expand Tribalism to encompass any area that wasn't a Roman or Sassanid urban center, so almost all of Africa bar a few counties/duchies (Cueta, Carthage, Alexandria/Cairo, maybe Benghazi? Idk ask the SWMH guys/handwave it as result of establishment of Islam/conquest), all of the Arabian peninsula, and the areas of the Persian Empire that aren't Mesopotamia/Persia proper. Basically, the Tribal reformations of power would come from the Arab Peninsula, Berbers, or the wilder edges of de jure Persian Empire.

You'd also want a decision or event chain to mature a Tribal power into a feudal power without changing holdings. Basically, when they start hitting the edges of their vassal limit, move them to an administrative center within their realm (wherever you decide to leave castle/city holdings, partially why I'd expand Tribalism so much) and set them on their own path to decadence and eventual collapse.



Would make for much more interesting gameplay for Muslims, both as them and playing as them, and would be an "extended mechanic", you could say. Just an idea I was toying with, given the amount of work (and need to touch the map/title history) I don't really expect an implementation, but hopefully plant an idea for integration of the mechanics because that'd be awesome to play with. Depends pretty heavily on how expensive ideal implementation is, how much work it requires, and whether the mechanics of mixed feudal/tribal realms can be made to play along. Also whether it's historically justifiable, as my knowledge of the link between tribalism and Islam is far less than professional.

 

[zijistark]

A new version of HIP has been released which addresses full Charlemagne compatibility (as well as compatibility with the beta branch versions) and more: link here.

An admittedly quite incomplete list of changes for the latest version of EMF follows.

EMF 2.01 Changes:

Spoiler

• First feature-complete release for Charlemagne
• CKII v2.2 (Charlemagne) Compatibility Patch Continued:
  • Full CKII v2.2.0.2 beta branch support and compatch
  • Full CKII v2.2.0.1 beta branch support and compatch
  • FIX: Minor province settlement graphics issue
  • FIX: Syntax error in a presently unused trait definition
  • FIX: INTER_MUSLIM_WAR_MONTHLY_PIETY_COST = 1 (was accidentally doubled in compatch)
• (Vanilla Map) Adopted fresh landed_titles (de jure structure and title definitions) from vanilla (with modifications)
• When forming a new empire, King's Peace laws are automatically translated into Emperor's Peace
• Children will now have a chance to express some 'nature' (vs. 'nurture') personality traits automatically at a young age.
  • The trait selection is strongly influenced by both the traits of the father and the mother-- not by the guardian.
  • Mom's personality traits actually matter to your kids' future now, so marry wisely.
  • Should see fewer annoying vanilla ward events and a more plausible personality development process rather than the usual vanilla breeding program.
• Ibadi holy order rebalanced to fit EMF's holy order maintenance/size standards.
  • They get galleys enough to transport themselves and are composed of archers, light cavalry, and camel cavalry.
  • Their maintenance-normalized size is double that of either of the 2 Sunni or Shiite holy orders, because there is no second Ibadi holy order.
  • The Haruriyyah also now simply require that Muslim jihads have been unlocked to form.
• Combat tactics and special_troops upgrade
  • Camel cavalry should now be a lot more effective in combat than previously.
  • FIX: Vanilla's special_troops (elephants, camel_cavalry, and horse_archers) maintenance and skirmish/melee/pursuit attack/defense values reverted to intentional, pre-2.2 values.
• Province religion conversion now affects religious authority (+1% per province converted, -1% per province led astray-- heresy appearance doesn't count)
• Provinces of different culture, culture_group, religion, or religion_group now cause small local_revolt_risk in addition to their numerous other maluses
• Councillors again lift Fog of War when assigned; multiplayer exploit no longer an issue due to the inability to instantly reassign councillors (now requires min. 14 days)
• Sieges take 20% less time to complete, ceteris paribus.
• Battles against religious enemies yield less piety (-33%).
• Laws:
  • Slightly more forgiving vassal opinion modifiers for all Obligations slider increments (+2 opinion)
  • Imperial Administration can now be unlocked with near-maximum crown authority (but the ERE gets it for free)
  • Fresh succession law implementation, simpler approach than PB to requirements for passing these laws
  • FIX: For a Decentralized HRE or an ERE which hasn't even partially reformed its Themes System, Obligations law sliders cannot be raised
  • FIX: Patricians now always have access to the Obligations/Focus sliders.
• MAJOR: Countless other undocumented, though *usually* relatively small, changes.

Happy crusading!

 

[Saintrl]

A new version of HIP has been released which addresses full Charlemagne compatibility (as well as compatibility with the beta branch versions) and more: link here.

An admittedly quite incomplete list of changes for the latest version of EMF follows.

EMF 2.01 Changes:

Spoiler

• First feature-complete release for Charlemagne
• CKII v2.2 (Charlemagne) Compatibility Patch Continued:
  • Full CKII v2.2.0.2 beta branch support and compatch
  • Full CKII v2.2.0.1 beta branch support and compatch
  • FIX: Minor province settlement graphics issue
  • FIX: Syntax error in a presently unused trait definition
  • FIX: INTER_MUSLIM_WAR_MONTHLY_PIETY_COST = 1 (was accidentally doubled in compatch)
• (Vanilla Map) Adopted fresh landed_titles (de jure structure and title definitions) from vanilla (with modifications)
• When forming a new empire, King's Peace laws are automatically translated into Emperor's Peace
• Children will now have a chance to express some 'nature' (vs. 'nurture') personality traits automatically at a young age.
  • The trait selection is strongly influenced by both the traits of the father and the mother-- not by the guardian.
  • Mom's personality traits actually matter to your kids' future now, so marry wisely.
  • Should see fewer annoying vanilla ward events and a more plausible personality development process rather than the usual vanilla breeding program.
• Ibadi holy order rebalanced to fit EMF's holy order maintenance/size standards.
  • They get galleys enough to transport themselves and are composed of archers, light cavalry, and camel cavalry.
  • Their maintenance-normalized size is double that of either of the 2 Sunni or Shiite holy orders, because there is no second Ibadi holy order.
  • The Haruriyyah also now simply require that Muslim jihads have been unlocked to form.
• Combat tactics and special_troops upgrade
  • Camel cavalry should now be a lot more effective in combat than previously.
  • FIX: Vanilla's special_troops (elephants, camel_cavalry, and horse_archers) maintenance and skirmish/melee/pursuit attack/defense values reverted to intentional, pre-2.2 values.
• Province religion conversion now affects religious authority (+1% per province converted, -1% per province led astray-- heresy appearance doesn't count)
• Provinces of different culture, culture_group, religion, or religion_group now cause small local_revolt_risk in addition to their numerous other maluses
• Councillors again lift Fog of War when assigned; multiplayer exploit no longer an issue due to the inability to instantly reassign councillors (now requires min. 14 days)
• Sieges take 20% less time to complete, ceteris paribus.
• Battles against religious enemies yield less piety (-33%).
• Laws:
  • Slightly more forgiving vassal opinion modifiers for all Obligations slider increments (+2 opinion)
  • Imperial Administration can now be unlocked with near-maximum crown authority (but the ERE gets it for free)
  • Fresh succession law implementation, simpler approach than PB to requirements for passing these laws
  • FIX: For a Decentralized HRE or an ERE which hasn't even partially reformed its Themes System, Obligations law sliders cannot be raised
  • FIX: Patricians now always have access to the Obligations/Focus sliders.
• MAJOR: Countless other undocumented, though *usually* relatively small, changes.

Happy crusading!

So much to sift through... Why is it that I always like enough of HIP to want to spend time putting together all the things I like?

 

[zijistark]

So much to sift through... Why is it that I always like enough of HIP to want to spend time putting together all the things I like?

Probably the same reason I suffer through compatches.

 

[Saintrl]

Probably the same reason I suffer through compatches.

Teeeellll me about it man. Still waiting on so many mods to be updated.

 

[Sqwerlpunk]

Any chance for an event/decision to get religious heads (particularly the pope and his mountains of gold) to build temples in converted tribal/newly feudal/republic realms for the rulers? Would help get the initial holdings going, and be a plausible bonus for converting to an organized religion instead of going for reformation.

If that sounds good, you could also add some decisions or events for AI theocracies to send gold to the Patriarch/heresy head to enable non-Catholic realms to do similar at a lower level. Perhaps some decision to found the first city of a province at a cheaper cost (or using piety/prestige to replace some of the gold), like colonizing your first city using your castle towns (destroy 1-3 levels of building).

Either way would really help newly christian and/or feudal realms get on their feet, as income sucks for both (lack of barons to tax makes for sad times). Tax income sucks for tribal/new feudal, and it's really hard and expensive to set up republic vassals without gold.

 

[PseudoCatfish]

Any chance for an event/decision to get religious heads (particularly the pope and his mountains of gold) to build temples in converted tribal/newly feudal/republic realms for the rulers? Would help get the initial holdings going, and be a plausible bonus for converting to an organized religion instead of going for reformation.

If that sounds good, you could also add some decisions or events for AI theocracies to send gold to the Patriarch/heresy head to enable non-Catholic realms to do similar at a lower level. Perhaps some decision to found the first city of a province at a cheaper cost (or using piety/prestige to replace some of the gold), like colonizing your first city using your castle towns (destroy 1-3 levels of building).

Either way would really help newly christian and/or feudal realms get on their feet, as income sucks for both (lack of barons to tax makes for sad times). Tax income sucks for tribal/new feudal, and it's really hard and expensive to set up republic vassals without gold.

This is a great idea balance and history-wise--the king of Poland, for example, was awarded with an archbisphoric at Gneizno.

 

[Maal]

This doesn't seem right, i created the empire when i was nearly fully controlling it, only to see it getting destroyed a few days later. You shouldn't have allowed me to create it if you are not permitting <100 empire (ROOT = { not = { realm_size = 100 } })

http://i.imgur.com/j4HqoF2.jpg

 

[Sqwerlpunk]

This doesn't seem right, i created the empire when i was nearly fully controlling it, only to see it getting destroyed a few days later. You shouldn't have allowed me to create it if you are not permitting <100 empire (ROOT = { not = { realm_size = 100 } })

http://i.imgur.com/j4HqoF2.jpg

Unintended consequence of Tribal lands having only 1 holding. I'm sure there will be a fix shortly.

 

[Think0028]

We'll look into it, but holy shit 67 holdings? That's not an empire. That's like... 2 tiny kingdoms. Tops. More like 1 kingdom frankly. There's no way we're going with any solution other than 'you must be this tall to be an emperor'.