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MattAlexi

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Here's an update to my contribution to your fantastic mod Crownsteler, although I apologise for not being able to help with your code or map issues.

I've added my Nuragic city set and a handful of Nuragic emblems for their flags.

With the help of Ross G, the developer of the Blender PDX Mesh addon, I was able to export the Cothon so that it can be used as a port with ships in it. That would require every Carthage port to be the Cothon and I don't know if that's something that you want so I've commented it out. The Cothon wonder remains the same, with some fixes to the geometry and new particles.

PM me on Discord if you'd like some help adding it in.
 

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crownsteler

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I love your work :) First thing I was planning on doing was make a compatibility patch with your Nuragic buildings. Glad to see that that wouldn't be necessary. Lovely new faction icons as well.

As for cothon. This was my solution:
cothon_01.png


I simply scaled it down to fit on top of the exiting port. I causes some clipping issues, but I could live with that. It triggers after completing the naval mission.

Good to see you managed to turn it into a functional port. Shame you can't have the game replace the model during the playthrough. Now Iam unsure what to do. Because I am really fond of it only appearing after completing the mission That gives a sense of progression and growth to your empire. I'll have to consider what to do.
 
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Yeah, no. I wouldn't want it to be neccessary to do that. Since the assets are free to use in the Imperator Coop Discord, my Nuragic buildings mod is an advertisement for modders.

I recommend using the Cothon as a wonder, just like what you've done is fine, or you could move the Cothon to a good spot and move the port south of it. Two ports isn't an issue.
 

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So I've played the mod a bit and one of the things that stands out especially is the increased tactical geography in large parts of the map. Its something I really enjoyed playing around with. Plus it makes for more interesting city visuals as they don't just blot out but warp around the terrain instead.
 

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I really love this mod, one of the best on here. A suggestion though would be to change the name of Gymnaesia to a punic equivalent. Strabo regards the root etyomology of the Balearic islands is Baal, which might point to the punic settlers of the island having Ba'al as their patron diety. A more phoenician name for the island state would be something like "Ba'alayn" Or "Belayn".

Also the way you model chokepoints and terrain into being more strategically interesting is awesome, it makes Italy, North Africa and southeastern Hispania so much more interesting and fun in politics and war. Maybe it's a stretch, but if you could apply this method of mapping to other areas of the game, like for example the thick woods of Gaul or Germania, you could use the same mapping style and make the game 100x better.

Keep up the great work!
 
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A suggestion though would be to change the name of Gymnaesia to a punic equivalent. Strabo regards the root etyomology of the Balearic islands is Baal, which might point to the punic settlers of the island having Ba'al as their patron diety. A more phoenician name for the island state would be something like "Ba'alayn" Or "Belayn".
The Balearic islands should be reworked completely.
 

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Just to let everybody know I am still around and plodding around with some more map work.
anatolia 03.png


anatolia 01.pnganatolia 02.png

Haven't figured how to get the senate to work the way I want it though. :(
 
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The map is as finished as it is going to be for now (I can go on forever editing the map). There is just one huge lingering issue, and that is the roads file. For some odd reason I am never able to generate a roads file. The map editor always crashed when I try to generate it. And while it is not critical to the game, it would be great if you could actually build roads.

So I was wondering if somebody else has an idea how I can generate a new roads file, or if somebody else would want to try to generate a file for me? Because then I can put this out there.
 
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Pureon

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I'm unable to help but have you tried asking about roads in the mapping section of the Imperator Mod Coop discord?
 

crownsteler

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Since today is apparently new UI-day...

new deity icons.png

(still waiting on the new Ba'al and Baalat icons)

@Pureon
Alas...I found no salvation there either. I am getting a bit desperate by now. My previous solution of reverting to 1.3 and generating a file there also doesn't work anymore, as I can't get 1.3 to work anymore... :O
 
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crownsteler

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Another obligatory I am still around post (got bored this weekend, so...)
bactria 02.png


I still can't generate a road file, so I am still no closer to release. But oh well.
 
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Samitte

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Looks beautiful, even from these rather far-off screenshots. Any chance we can get some more up close ones?

A few small criticisms though:

I don't think the Sughd/Polytimetus/modern Zeravshan river ever made it into the Oxus by itself until the modern channel, but rather dried up in the alluvial fan around modern Qarakol. Arrian 4.6 describes it's waters as 'dissapearing into the sands'

While its unsure if the Balkhab still reached the Oxus, it would not have done so flowing West, but by flowing north via the Achaeamenid-era channel. (Though I don't know the status of this channel during the Hellenistic period, I don't think it has been properly researched yet.) But most of the alluvial fan (minus the more recent, westernmost branch flowing towards modern Aqcha) seems to have been settled, with the centre being the most dense around this time. (though the whole thing is littered with ancient sites, unlike the western fan)
 
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Thanks for the feedback.

Yes it is really difficult to decide what to draw with all the changes we've made to the environment.

I made the assumption that rivers would have flowed further back then due to current agricultural withdraws. For the Balkh river specifically I relied on a citation on Wikipedia stating it at some point reached the Amur Darya via a delta. For the Zeravshan it was a guess which made sense in my head.

I also assumed modern agricultural land would have been a sort of floodplain back then, though I don't know if that is true.

I don't have time to load the game right now, but here is the original sized image:
bactria 01.png

If you have more suggestions I am all ears.

BTW how come you know so much about ancient hydrology in that region of the world?
 
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Samitte

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Yes it is really difficult to decide what to draw with all the changes we've made to the environment.

The state of archaeology in the region also doesn't help. But in general we're starting to develop a better appreciation for the impressive irrigation systems present in this region during the ancient past, as well as the interactions between nomads, pastoralists, and the settled peoples. But yeah, especially the mind-bogglingly stupid Soviet period has done so much harm to the hydrology of the region.

I also assumed modern agricultural land would have been a sort of floodplain back then, though I don't know if that is true.

You're correct in that assumption, though the extent of some oasis/floodplain regions was different. Chorasmia especially had a massive (but super fragile) irrigation system that was even more extensive then it is today. Similarly, the delta of the lower Jaxartes seems to have been of a similar size, though lacking the irrigation networks and thus being more swampy, since it was primarily the territory of the Massagetae. The Ferghana valley and Chach region too were very fertile, though here the Nomad-Settled interplay seemed similar to that in Chorasmia where nomads and settled peoples were highly reliant on one another.

Though the big farmland region between Myrzakent and Jizak is a modern version - this region used to be the ''Hungry Steppe''. In general, any lakes are a modern appearance (outside of the Aral Sea, Caspian Sea, and lake Sariqamish which all are much smaller then they were in Imperator's time).


If you have more suggestions I am all ears.

The Farmland in Samti (ID: 6759) still seems to be there, and which has 0 historical basis (This is the area that province covers, roughly). I'd further widen the Oxus delta, which seems to have had about half a dozen major channels going into both the Aral Sea and lake Sariqamish, with many smaller channels rejoining (still not possible I believe, sadly) or ending in swamps. The right bank of the Oxus (inbetween Hazorasp and the Sultan Uveys mountains) seems to have been much more extensive as well during this time (being practically annihilated following the Mongol conquest, and only being reused for agriculture in modern times). Though the area past the eastern end of the mountain probably was little used and swampy all the way to the Aral. (Note that work on the east bank has been steadily revealing more and more impressive evidence of ancient Chorsmia, including a hypostele hall to rival those in Persis, but much more is left to be uncovered.)

In terms of the northern Oxus marshlands (with some lightly wooded swamps interspersed), roughly north of the modern Nukus is where these started, with the area south of that being mostly farmland. Roughly this region, though the farmland and irrigation networks extended further west to Sariqamish into what is now desert. With the edges of the Ust-Yurt plateau being bordered by marshes. The Oxus past the Turkmenabat/Farab stretch and Chorasmia seems to have been quite barren, with a few marshy woodlands and mostly villages and nomads living there.

As for the Zeravshan/Polytimetus/Sughd, the lower (Bukharra, ancient Numjiket) oasis seems to have extended further west then it does now, and end in the alluvian fan at Paykend. I cannot find my notes right now on the state of the canal systems in the upper (Samarqand) area, but I recall the canal systems there were still being developed and extended massively during antiquity, though the main Dargom section was already ancient by this time.

As for the Ferghana and Jaxartes, still working on this region myself. Though the area around Chach (ingame Maidanchach, this area) had high argicultural potential, though this was only realised much later since unlike the Ferghana valley this region remained mostly pastural. In terms of the lower Jaxartes, the branch that goes south (and then west into the Aral) ends in the desert in game right now, but it is this region where we have the most evidence of settled life along the Jaxartes in this period.

Finally, I'd add some more routes through the Qarakum, Qizilqum, historically used by the various nomad groups for quick raids into the settled regions. And get rid of the Wusun, Sogdia, and Tayuan tags and take away all Bactrian provinces past Alexandria Eschate and on the north side of the Jaxartes. The Ferghana valley and upper Jaxartes were under Amyrgian control, and the long valley controlled by Sogdia and Wusun is where the Sakia (Properly named Sacae) tag belongs. It is from there they were pushed out infront of the Yuezhi (Tocharian) migration which eventually saw them settle in modern Sistan (Sakastana) and found the Indo-Scythian Kingdom. The stretch of land around Shymkent was possibly Sacaraucae land, with various other groups probably part of the Massagetae culture along the rest of te river and on the Aral shore.

There are many more suggestions for this region I could make, but my time is up (dinner is served :p) and in general just suggest you keep doing what you are doing, and occasionally check an atlas or even just Google Maps when it comes to any mountainous areas, since as you have noticed they tend to be one big mess in Imperator.

BTW how come you know so much about ancient hydrology in that region of the world?

I have a big interest in historical geography. And I am reading up a lot on Central Asia right now since I will be tackling that region soon myself, given how uncharacteristic it is. Though I am currently still focussed on the southern Caucasus, Armenian Highlands and Anatolia.
 
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crownsteler

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Thanks for the suggestions. Most of what I do is studying the game map and Google map, and from there try to create something which makes sense. Unfortunately that does't work when the environment has changed so much. Based on your suggestions I did look a bit further and came across this map:

amur and syr delta.jpg

I will use this as my basis for redrawing the Syr delta (though it seems the Amu delta also needs some work :) )

It will also give me plenty of space to include the Massagatae (which I currently misplaced... :O).

I did intend on getting rid of Sogdia, but planned on replacing them with two seperate tags Cach and Sairima, primarily to allow for a bit more interesting gameplay in that corner in the map (+1 or 2 in the mountains if I can find anything suitable). I was never happy with Tuyuan, but I like having an aditional tag there. Putting the Amurgians there is a good suggestion, but I still like having another tag there. I might add a few provinces north of the current map to have some space to include the Issedones.

Moving the Saka, what would happen with the Saka tag and the space it occupies? I was looking into adding the Aorsi to that region of the map.

I hadn't gotten around to doing Samti yet. I will get around to it soon (as well as implement more of your suggestions).

Once I have finished Bactria (and direct surroundings), I will look at Dahestan. I feel it is a bit boring and unrepresentative as well.

I have a big interest in historical geography. And I am reading up a lot on Central Asia right now since I will be tackling that region soon myself, given how uncharacteristic it is. Though I am currently still focussed on the southern Caucasus, Armenian Highlands and Anatolia.

Haha, I only now noticed who posted. I am not suprised by your indept answer here. :)
 

Samitte

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Unfortunately that does't work when the environment has changed so much. Based on your suggestions I did look a bit further and came across this map:

Thats a fairly decent map, especially with regards to the ancient courses. I don't think you'll find many better ones free ones out there.

I did intend on getting rid of Sogdia, but planned on replacing them with two seperate tags Cach and Sairima, primarily to allow for a bit more interesting gameplay in that corner in the map (+1 or 2 in the mountains if I can find anything suitable). I was never happy with Tuyuan, but I like having an aditional tag there.

I'm looking forward to see what you find and your implementation! (If PDX ever responds to you about the road issue...) Its a hard region to work on, since its sort of stuck between two big source-generators (the Chinese and the Greco-Romans) but is peripheral to both.

I've personally mapped out the Sacae (Sacae/Saka culture, in the Talas and northern Chach area), with the Apasiacae (Massagatae culture) on the north-south portion of the Jaxartes, followed by the Attesians (Massagatae culture) in the stretch before the main Massagatae force, the Amyrgians in Ferghana and across from Alex.Eschate, and the Sacaraucae (Sacae/Saka culture) around the Shymkent area.

I might add a few provinces north of the current map to have some space to include the Issedones.

Aye, intend to do the same, especially since most of the names in the Talas area belong on that side of the mountains.

Moving the Saka, what would happen with the Saka tag and the space it occupies? I was looking into adding the Aorsi to that region of the map.

I'd put an Aorsia tag there, though I also moved the Dahae up a bit considering I've added Hyrcania (as a Parthian Satrapy), the Derbicians, and Tapyrians into the area. My Aosria stretches around the north bend of the Caspian, with the Siraces next to them, considering they seem to have come from that general direction before striking down around the Kuban River.

Once I have finished Bactria (and direct surroundings), I will look at Dahestan. I feel it is a bit boring and unrepresentative as well.

Definitely! Especially with two very well attested (for the time and place, of course) cultures missing entirely, the Hyrcanians and the nomadic Tapyrians. (Though the former are in the game, never used for some reason). I'm personally also looking forward to fixing the Tarim Basin, which is in a super miserable state right now.
 

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This all looks fantastic. Can't wait to see a playable version.

Any updates on the senate rework? Your original ideas sounded fantastic, i thought, so a real shame if the new mechanics have made that a dead-end
 

crownsteler

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I had some fun butchering Bactria. Kaspiria needs to be moved a bit more south-east, while I am unsure about Komedia. The Saka I just threw in there, and I am still shifting the Massagetia, Augasia (Attasia) and Apasakia (Pausikia) around.

bactria 03.png


This all looks fantastic. Can't wait to see a playable version.

Any updates on the senate rework? Your original ideas sounded fantastic, i thought, so a real shame if the new mechanics have made that a dead-end

Can't wait for a playable version either ^^ Paradox is holding me back tho :(

I did look into it, but unfortunately Paradox removed the files I had originally used to script the senate (the party_impact files), so I don't know what I would have to do to achieve a similar result, if it is even possible at all (which I doubt btw)
 

blackbirdgriffi

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This looks great, as a EBII player I have learnt to love the central asian region and am constantly intrigued by Khwarezm region the more I look into it, looking forward to play the Saka raukae in your mod (God I can't wait for a steppe nomad focused mod/update, your maps look awsome, altough given the scope you might want to change the name of the mod since it's not only about carthage now as it seems that carthage was more of a first step for you of sorts (and this is the next steppe, get it?).

So excited to push the Bactrians into beeing Indo greeks keep on this is awsome man :)