{ MOD } Birthright / D&D *Take II*

[Gamarasa]

I would very much like to take your gorgon on, Jon. I think an epic duel of our two evil overlords would be truly magnificient beyond words. :laugh:

The current setup of Anuire actually seems to make it very easy for Players to "abuse" the CK2 systems and completely break down the apparently lore-given situation, and get really really powerful really really quickly. Just look at our half-elven wannabe-empress for an example. That, together with my opinion of Anuire being a bit too much of a powerhouse anyway, makes it hard to balance things out.

As it stands (Jon could probably give a more detailed info about that) it seems the Gorgon NEEDS to break down Rjurik and/or Brechtur, when he's supposed to be the overpowered villain type waiting and trying to enslave Anuire. It kinda feels strange, to me at least. Also, If the other provinces of Vosgard are of a similar strength to my current ones, I need to take at least half of Khinasi to be able to threaten anyone in the west. Seems wrong, somehow.
Also, why don't you take the marriage of your son to one of azrai's spawn as a pretense to convert to the one true faith? The Gorgon would be less overwhelming, we would be best friends under crowns and the elves would break before our mighty armies of semi-mutated soldiers! :laugh:
Looking at my save again, the current wraith-portraits take on the clothes of other cultures if born with that. I just saw a nazgul with a turban. :laugh:

 

[Blood Royal]

My opinion remains that human players are always overpowered vs the AI, so the best we can do is balance it so that it is balanced on AI-run simulations.

To get the Gorgon to behave more "properly" when run by the AI, the easiest steps to take are:

1. Put the Swordhawk with Azrai religion in Massenmarch, then the Gorgon won't use the religious CB There.
2. Block off all but 1-province pass into Brechtur, and possibly make this a lvl 10 fort, though I'm not sure that will stop him.

He doesn't expand into the elven realms or the Giantdowns, so that should focus his attention on Anuire as it should be. Should he get a land border with the Khinasi, and use a holy war CB on them, I think they have a good chance of resisting him actually if they work together. There are some very powerful realms in Khinasi now after Hamanu has given the city states some buildings.

3. Make Markazor and Gorgon's Crown under the same de jure empire, so that even if Anuire unites, they do not immediately destroy the Gorgon. The Gorgon's crown could also be split into 3-4 duchies, to make conquest of it harder.

For Anuire, I'm going to make it harder to buy vassal Dukes. Perhaps twice as hard, that is 2000 gold and 5000 prestige. Plus an added condition to get the final emperor title, beyond the 150 realm size. This could be taking out the Gorgon, for example, either via a legendary quest or by taking his titles.

But again, as I might have mentioned, Anuire is as much a villain for all the other regions as the Awnsheighleen and elves. Anuire should unite within a reasonable time frame, 50-100 years, and it should be able to threaten the rest of the regions with duchy-level imperial CBs if they pay 2500 gold to launch an Imperial invasion (I'm not sure the AI ever saves up 2500 gold to do this, however, but a player should be able to easily enough).

We could get a relative power-ranking index done by looking at this map:

http://gm.mapgears.com/birthright-map/

and adding up all the province levels (the first number) for each region. My *guess* would be that the relative power ranking would be something like this, with 100 being Anuire, and the other realms being that percentage of Anuire's power.

Anuire: 100
Brechtur: 70
Khinasi: 60
Rjurik: 40
Vos: 40

If anyone wants to add up the figures themselves, however, we could model our mod's balance on that ranking, and assume that military power follows economic power just to make things easier

 

[Gamarasa]

Just made a quick comparing count of Anuire and the Vos. Maybe tomorrow I'll do Khinasi and the Rjurik.
counting everything visible and giving Aerenwe and Roesone a basic 20(both obscured at least a bit, on my map. Found no way to rectify) I came to a total province level of 498, so let's take 500 as the base.
the entire empire of the Vos (excluding the Wraiths, as they aren't counted on the map) comes up with 252, akA about 50%.
(god, I hate those little numbers right now)
taking duchy levels into account, then the Raven should at the very start be about as strong as the Grand Baron, with only Molochev being capable to stand up to him. Especially Northern Vosgard is hit hard, with only Luthosky being really able to do anything.
In Anuire, all duchies that aren't city-states circle around level 20, with Avanil, Ghoere and Boeruine naturally being higher.(actually, about twice that number.)
Oh, and I excluded the Gorgons Crown from Anuire in that count, as it shouldn't be really a part of that empire anymore, in my view.

 

[Blood Royal]

Great work, Gamarasa, even if the numbers are a bit low for the Vos! I'd be very interested to see how Brechtur and Khinasi lands add up too, if you or anyone else is inclined.

Btw, if you don't like the Anuirean Empire uniting in your single player games, feel free to go into decisions/ folder and delete anuire_emperor_decisions for a more sandbox experience

 

[Gamarasa]

Just decided to finish that number-filled nightmare right now. I want to see how things balance out.
And yeah, I was surprised by the low numbers, as well. Rjuriks and the Vos are really weakened by their northern parts and having the Wraiths and Giants within their borders.
results are getting edited in here.

The Rjuriks most likely get the shaft, with merely total province level 140. The Wildlands break their neck in that regard, and all other duchies are not thaat giant either. The Witch should be only as strong as a regular Anuirean province, by this count.

Brechtur comes together for 455 points, with the numbers being close to zero in the west (except Kiergaard) and increasing the more one travels to the northeast. The burrows surprised me by being as strong as e.g Coeranys.

 

[Hamanu]

The problem with comparing levels is that the game creators really only had Anuire in mind when designing the system. Then, when they realized that comparing medieval France, Germany and Italy with Norway and the Arab world is a bit tricky, let alone the steps of Russia, they fiddled with the levels in order to simulate the relative population difference (let's face it, the entire population of Scandinavia was probably about equal to Aquitaine), which created a problem ruleswise, since all regents had to use the same mechanics, which made the Rjurik and the Vos pitifully weak in comparison.

However, then they started adding game fluff, like weather, nomadic or roaming tribes etc in order to try to balance the game for the purposes of D&D, but one cannot simply compare numbers in order to get to the relative power of a certain region.

In the game, Roele failed to conquer the Vos and all of Khinasi, the Brecht League was destroyed in a trap on lake Ladan and the Rjurik submitted willingly, after a few battles. These things cannot be simulated in a computer game.

 

[Gamarasa]

The longer I stare at those numbers, the more I guess you're right about that not being measurable. But I still think that we need some sort of balance in this mod so that Anuire CAN be stopped in some way.
However, these numbers don't bring us anywhere. According to this, Brechtur would be marginally weaker than Anuire (measly 45 levels in total), while Rjuriks would be prey for everyone and the Vos united couldn't pose a threat to even the united eastern Brecht-coast.
Even if I did like to see that Anuire isn't all-powerful even in the D&D-lore of Birthright.

 

[Blood Royal]

OK, by the looks of those figures, we shouldn't attempt to balance the mod on total province levels then

And you're right, Hamanu, some birthright things cannot/should not be translated directly into our mod without taking into account all the other non-province factors (nomadic tribes, warrior culture of the Vos, weather, etc).

And if you look at our MP game, Gamarasa, Anuire isn't actually that all-powerful. Let's say Achab/Aerenwe manages to get the throne; an alliance of Tuarhievel and Lluabraight the Gorgon could probably stop him with their 50-60k troops. It's not unrealistic that little Muden will have 15-20k troops in a few years time either, though half of those will probably be retinues.

I think you are just traumatised by Anuire because you keep trying to stand up to them as the dwarves

 

[Gamarasa]

Might as well be that. It DOES give a rather bad first impression if the first contact with Avanil-Anuire you have is the former Prince proclaiming "ooooh! I wanna have that foreeeest!" and sending about 30.000 men there. Especially when an ancient, dwelling evil comes from the other side and declares exactly the same thing, only for another forest.

I'll be quiet about Anuire, and wait what happens in our test game. Promise. :laugh: And just to finish things, I'll still look into Khinasi.
Which stands at about 347 points. Making the list
1.Anuire with 498
2.Brechtur with 455
3.Khinasi with 347
4.Vos with 252 and
5.Rjurik with measly 140
So...No. I don't think we should use that, definitely.

 

[Iron Gore]

We also need to realize that the Awnsheiglin in the Brechts, Vos, Rjurik and Khinasi play a huge role in slowing them from creating a state big enough to counter an early formed Anuire empire. I wonder if in fact they (Awnsheglin) will be the emerging powers from those regions (at Least the White Wich, and the Raven have the strength to do so, and perhaps the Magian or Serpent). Hard to compete with immortality and personal power, plus there is no compulsion to assassination and intrigue (their reputation is already diminished) to render large groupings asunder.

We need a mechanism that drives the Gorgon south west only. We should set a rebellion that the Gorgon can't win in Kiergard right at start (perhaps a Brecht crusade coinciding with a powerful Brand Mournsinger rebellion?). This would peal off Kiergards assets from him, and allow for a 10 year reprieve through the Basin, and reduce the armies the Gorgon has at start.

Perhaps at the same time (or shortly there after), Khurin-Azur and Baruk-Azik unite to liberate Mur-Kilad (I know they hate each other, but fair bet to assume they hate the Gorgon more...)? Supported perhaps by Dakhar-Zhigun mercenary adventurers. These early actions would whittle the super power stature of the Gorgon, allowing for an alliance of dwarves to form against the Gorgon and mutual survival.

Once one player is down on his luck (the Gorgon), perhaps the folks in Anuire gang up and take the parts of Markazor adjacent to them, eliminating the goblins that have menaced them so, while making Cariele, the Mhore, and the Elves a little stronger in the bargain.

The Gorgon would still be a huge menace, just not an all powerful one.

We should also make it an epic undertaking to reunite the empire in Anuire. After 551 years, the old empire is more fractured than ever and I think that mechanic in Birthright gave the other races a great start and chance to catch up, while the flower of Anuire was dashed against the rock of ambition.

 

[Hamanu]

I don't think that setting up the Gorgon to fall apart is a fun prospect, but turning him against Anuire is more than interesting solution.

Since he usually goes after Rohrmark and Dauren, maybe one or two holy orders for the Brecht would help.. Also, Rohrmark should be Haelyn/Cuiraecen and get the full range of Anuriean holy orders to help. That might stem the tide from that side and Avanil/Boeruine might help too.

Try to test it... if Rohrmark is Haelyn (as it should be), would that block Gorgon from that end.. That and Massenmarch as Azrai could work.

Then again, it still doesn't solve the problem that the Gorgon will hit Dauren.

 

[JonStryker]

Dauren is pretty save in the beginning. I've added most of the impassable terrain that Iron Gore wanted so it can only be accessed through Danigau. Maybe the CBs have to be amended so that only directly neighbouring provinces can be attacked. After the Gorgon expanded into Danigau he might still attack them. But the plan is to make Dauren a Merchant Republic. Their huge funds compared with enough mercenaries might allow them to permanently keep their de jure land.
Nerving the Gorgon would be silly, though. Currently the Gorgon doesn't have a real way to expand into Anuire. He can only attack for claims right at the beginning (before that Western Bay kingdom is founded) or for single counties. And whichever he chooses he would lose badly. In a religious war all Anuireans will gang up on him + their overpowered holy order. Even two Anuirean states can easily outnumber him by 2:1 (including the holy order).

Regarding the Anuirean empire I am with Iron Gore: It shouldn't be railroaded and it shouldn't be doable quickly. 100+ years for the average player would be nice. In vanilla you have to beat the Egyptians, the Persians and the Karlings at least once each to be able to restore the (proper) Roman Empire. A "roadmap" like in vanilla would be nice for Birthright, too. Something to plan a long single player campaign around. It also would be nice that once you are the emperor of Anuire you have to a) work hard to keep it and b) have dangerous enemies to pick fights with. Just rolling over anyone in opposition with the superior numbers of Anuire would be boring.
If the Vos have a too low province level we'd have to either amend the province levels or give Vos provinces something like a "warrior cult" as Pagans in vanilla.
Doing what AGOT did might be a good idea, too: Disabling technology altogether and adding buildings like "Giant Brecht castle" to all provinces which give fixed bonuses and are very expensive to increase. Seems as if technology-wise not much has changed since Deismaar, right?

 

[Blood Royal]

I don't think it's necessary to handicap the Gorgon further (besides restricting eastern expansion) Iron Gore - once we add holy orders to the Brecht and some mercenaries and Republics, I think they'll be quite capable of standing up to him. The Khinasi probably already are, at scenario-start, and so are the Anuireans as JonStryker discovered in our MP game when he tried pressing a claim against Avanil - unsuccessfully

And he doesn't attack the pagan attrition provinces of the elves, dwarves, or giants, so that's solved too.

Regarding the Anuirean empire I am with Iron Gore: It shouldn't be railroaded and it shouldn't be doable quickly. 100+ years for the average player would be nice. In vanilla you have to beat the Egyptians, the Persians and the Karlings at least once each to be able to restore the (proper) Roman Empire. A "roadmap" like in vanilla would be nice for Birthright, too. Something to plan a long single player campaign around. It also would be nice that once you are the emperor of Anuire you have to a) work hard to keep it and b) have dangerous enemies to pick fights with.

Yep, playtesting has revealed that serious work is going to be needed to fix the current Anuirean Emperor events It's probably going to be my next major scripting project, as it has such a huge impact on the mod's playability and I'll certainly try to include many of hte suggestions posted here on this thread when I get to work on it.

If the Vos have a too low province level we'd have to either amend the province levels or give Vos provinces something like a "warrior cult" as Pagans in vanilla.


Is that done in the religion files? I'd be all for giving the Vos the warrior cult, as they really should have it.

Doing what AGOT did might be a good idea, too: Disabling technology altogether and adding buildings like "Giant Brecht castle" to all provinces which give fixed bonuses and are very expensive to increase. Seems as if technology-wise not much has changed since Deismaar, right?

I'm against disabling technology in general, as choosing what to invest in is part of the game's strategic element (already weaker than in many other paradox games, in my opinion). Also if we removed it, we would have to replace it with something better - and unless someone is willing to do a major overhaul that takes into account such things as retinue size, army morale, demesne size, etc developing over time then I think the current technology/building set-up is best kept in. I'm definitely for adding custom buildings however, as needed.

 

[Gamarasa]

I agree with Blood on the technology part, as that is one of the things I dislike about AGOT. I actually prefer slowly improving what my people can do (just think of it as minor improvements than groundbreaking discoveries in fantasy worlds, e.G my dwarves developing better methods of forging) over eternal stagnation. And I prefer hoarding thousands of gold pieces for other things than improving my castle. Just a personal opinion, though.

And forgive me for the stupid question, but how strong exactly do we want the Gorgon to be in comparison to his neighbours? Earlier it was said that he should be able to threaten everyone at least a little, so they are wary. Yet we don't really want him to be able to take down anyone on his own if they don't screw up beforehand. Is that about it?
I just get a different vibe of what we all want the Gorgon to be every time we get to the topic. Could be my horrible understanding of the english language, of course. :laugh:
But still, seeing what he is meant to be sometimes gives a good idea.

All in favor of the warrior-cult of the Vos, too! We of the east are severely underpowered!

 

[Blood Royal]

As for the Gorgon, hehe, my point of view is that he should be the most powerful ruler at game-start and well into the game as well, but we just need to make him focus on Anuire (which he cant take, anyways) - we're well under way with getting this done in the current/next build.

Btw, for the regional modders and anyone else - I'm gonna take a second round of Awnsheighleen (and possible Ersheighleen) portrait making, so post any requests here.

So far I plan to do the Chimaera, the Hag, the Banshee, the Vampire, the Kraken, the Leviathan, the Sphinx, the Siren... and... who else is needed?

 

[Gamarasa]

I think I read somewhere about a basilisk and something called the Banshegh. If that's not the Banshee, then that one would be nice, I think.
Oh, and also the Manticore, perhaps?

I don't think it is possible to make the Gorgon focus on an unwinnable fight without forcing it through events. He basically NEEDS to have a chance at victory.
I have no Idea why the AI factors that in as the Gorgon, yet completely ignores holy-war-helping with the Spider, but even that little bugger only attacks when he thinks he can win.

 

[Hamanu]

As for the Gorgon, hehe, my point of view is that he should be the most powerful ruler at game-start and well into the game as well, but we just need to make him focus on Anuire (which he cant take, anyways) - we're well under way with getting this done in the current/next build.

Btw, for the regional modders and anyone else - I'm gonna take a second round of Awnsheighleen (and possible Ersheighleen) portrait making, so post any requests here.

So far I plan to do the Chimaera, the Hag, the Banshee, the Vampire, the Kraken, the Leviathan, the Sphinx, the Siren... and... who else is needed?

Well, there's el-Sheghul in the Black Spears Tribes who is just like the Magian, except he is bound to the Shadow World and cannot exert full control over his presence in Cerilia so he is handicapped to a great extent. I detailed him in my work on the Docandragh region, but it would be cool if you could find some kind of portrait similar to that of the Magian for him. Its not a biggie since el-Sheghul is, supposedly, hiding his presence, but if you have spare time, assigning him another lich image would be cool.

I gave him the weak trait to mark his tie to the Shadow World, and he's neither overpowered or overbalanced. I'm thinking there could be a quest chain or event chain that frees him eventually and gives him access to those same death knights you will, one day, introduce for the Magian.

As for the Gorgon, his focus on Anuire and disregard for the Brecht in the game setting (except for Kiergaard which is considered a "bread basket" for the Gorgon's Crown) is because he is the elder half-brother to Haelyn and Roele and his hatred for his brethren and their Empire eclipses everything else. He believes the throne should have been his and that he should have ruled the Andu, so any realms he conquers beyond Anuire pale in comparison with the Imperial City.

His ultimate goal is, supposedly, godhood and he should seek to eliminate all worshipers of Haelyn. Dunno if that can be modded or whatnot but he should have a special focus on any realm or character that follows Haelyn, I think.

 

[Blood Royal]

Ahh yes, forgot the Basilisk and Manticore!

I'll have to double check though, I'm only going to do the ones with actual landed titles this time around. And yes, Banshee = Banshegh.

As for the Gorgon, well we really just need to make it harder for him to take Brechtur and even in the current build he usually takes Cariele and parts of Mhoried which is fine to me.

 

[Blood Royal]

Well, there's el-Sheghul in the Black Spears Tribes who is just like the Magian, except he is bound to the Shadow World and cannot exert full control over his presence in Cerilia so he is handicapped to a great extent. I detailed him in my work on the Docandragh region, but it would be cool if you could find some kind of portrait similar to that of the Magian for him. Its not a biggie since el-Sheghul is, supposedly, hiding his presence, but if you have spare time, assigning him another lich image would be cool.

If you give him culture = Wraith he will have a nazgul portrait, that could be an easy work around

His ultimate goal is, supposedly, godhood and he should seek to eliminate all worshipers of Haelyn. Dunno if that can be modded or whatnot but he should have a special focus on any realm or character that follows Haelyn, I think.

Ascension to godhood event-chain is planned for those with a true bloodline and insane amounts of regency stored, the specifics aren't quite worked out yet however

 

[Hamanu]

His ascension also includes the defeat or humiliation of Haelyn. I think it is written somewhere that he could have ascended, but choose to stay to ruin his brothers empire first.