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Super7700

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Well, as for how to model the rise of Christianity, it wasn't like there was just a massive influx of believers into the world. The Romans, and indeed many others, actually persecuted Christians for a long time. So as far as the rise of Christianity, perhaps have it start appearing slowly with a lot of hate directed towards it? I don't know which branch of Christianity came about first. My historical focus/specialty is the Roman Kingdom/Republic/Empire. I can look into it for you during my free time, but unfortunately Christmas break is over for me tomorrow, so It might take me a couple days to gather the facts on it for you.

I've done some reading into the spread of Christianity and the offshoots that were present early on, and I think the greatest challenge is working out how to implement it in a way that isn't too railroaded. Bearing in mind the broad range of outcomes possible in CK3, it could very well be that there's games where the Jewish faith doesn't even survive to the approximate date of Jesus' birth, and there might not be a great empire through which Christianity can spread, so its not like we can just have a series of events that are identical each game. In any case, we probably won't look into it further until we expand our map to the Levant.
 

Gurkhal

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I've done some reading into the spread of Christianity and the offshoots that were present early on, and I think the greatest challenge is working out how to implement it in a way that isn't too railroaded. Bearing in mind the broad range of outcomes possible in CK3, it could very well be that there's games where the Jewish faith doesn't even survive to the approximate date of Jesus' birth, and there might not be a great empire through which Christianity can spread, so its not like we can just have a series of events that are identical each game. In any case, we probably won't look into it further until we expand our map to the Levant.

In my opinion it sounds like a good idea to put implementing Christianity on hold for a while.

But I would also think that Christianity shouldn't be considered as an isolated occurance but rather seen in the prospect of the rise of mystery cults and other monotheistic religions in the ancient world.

So maybe wait a while and then take it on as part of a larger project regarding such things as the cults of Mithras and Isis, Christianity, Manichaeism and Gnostic cults, philosophical schools and so on?

In a way I, personally and I am no scholar or expert on this, think that it was kind of unavoidable that there would develop alternatives to the older ethnoreligions after Alexander the Great's conquests and the creation of a more connected world in the East and across the Mediterranean. But as said, there could be many alternatives to the way things played out.
 
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Super7700

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In my opinion it sounds like a good idea to put implementing Christianity on hold for a while.

But I would also think that Christianity shouldn't be considered as an isolated occurance but rather seen in the prospect of the rise of mystery cults and other monotheistic religions in the ancient world.

So maybe wait a while and then take it on as part of a larger project regarding such things as the cults of Mithras and Isis, Christianity, Manichaeism and Gnostic cults, philosophical schools and so on?

In a way I, personally and I am no scholar or expert on this, think that it was kind of unavoidable that there would develop alternatives to the older ethnoreligions after Alexander the Great's conquests and the creation of a more connected world in the East and across the Mediterranean. But as said, there could be many alternatives to the way things played out.

That's a really good idea, we certainly want to create mechanics to allow for mystery & syncretic cults to spread dynamically so it would make a lot of sense for Christianity to function in a similar way. Perhaps we could also take advantage of CK3's faith creation mechanics so Christianity or an alternative to Christianity would have tenets and doctrines that can change according to the circumstances in which it emerged.

Another question by the way. Will the Greeks and Italics share the same religious "family" or what its called in CK3?

Yep I think that makes most sense for them to have separate religions but share the same religious family.
 
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Paciaire

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I've done some reading into the spread of Christianity and the offshoots that were present early on, and I think the greatest challenge is working out how to implement it in a way that isn't too railroaded. Bearing in mind the broad range of outcomes possible in CK3, it could very well be that there's games where the Jewish faith doesn't even survive to the approximate date of Jesus' birth, and there might not be a great empire through which Christianity can spread, so its not like we can just have a series of events that are identical each game. In any case, we probably won't look into it further until we expand our map to the Levant.

By Jesus birth Judea had been already submitted to hellenistic influence for like +300 years, despite the complete hellenisation was only concerning a small part of the population, all in all its unlikely the jewish faith would not survive, and inherent pharisee schools and finally Jesus. Just my two cents though.

After I hope no religion will spread as easy as in current game. What do you think about creating County modifiers to reflect newly introduced cults? Like now you have "Famine" or "Plague", then it could be used for minor cults. Its how MEIOU and taxes represented protestant or catholic minorities. Think of jewish community in Alexandria or christian community in imperial Rome or the great variety of oriental cults you could find in cities like Ostia, Lyon, Narbo Martius, Carthage...etc

This way you can have mithraism, christianism, or even syncretic cults represented more progressively.
The County modifier(minority cult) would eventually evolve In a majority religion at the scale of the County in several decades.

Despite I think most of these cults should remain minoritary, a good proportion of them were vehiculated by elites, merchants, soldiers.
And a fair amount of curiosities like gnostic schools or philosophical schools were more things for otiose and urban peoples.
 
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Super7700

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By Jesus birth Judea had been already submitted to hellenistic influence for like +300 years, despite the complete hellenisation was only concerning a small part of the population, all in all its unlikely the jewish faith would not survive, and inherent pharisee schools and finally Jesus. Just my two cents though.

After I hope no religion will spread as easy as in current game. What do you think about creating County modifiers to reflect newly introduced cults? Like now you have "Famine" or "Plague", then it could be used for minor cults. Its how MEIOU and taxes represented protestant or catholic minorities. Think of jewish community in Alexandria or christian community in imperial Rome or the great variety of oriental cults you could find in cities like Ostia, Lyon, Narbo Martius, Carthage...etc

This way you can have mithraism, christianism, or even syncretic cults represented more progressively.
The County modifier(minority cult) would eventually evolve In a majority religion at the scale of the County in several decades.

Despite I think most of these cults should remain minoritary, a good proportion of them were vehiculated by elites, merchants, soldiers.
And a fair amount of curiosities like gnostic schools or philosophical schools were more things for otiose and urban peoples.

I think it ultimately depends on how tolerant the overlords are - had the Maccabean revolts failed, I imagine there could've been considerable suppression of Judaism and its priestly castes under the Seleucids, at least while Antiochus IV was alive. Don't worry though - we're already looking to make religions spread considerably slower than in vanilla, and I'm personally quite keen to remove the 'convert county' court chaplain task or at least make it a bit more random.

County modifiers are probably the best way to indicate where cults are located, though we are also looking to have a dedicated UI for religious cults, perhaps along the lines of CK2's societies. However that isn't something we've discussed in detail yet, as we'll probably wait till we've expanded the map further east to the areas where many of these cults originated. Having mechanics of some sort for philosophical schools would be good too, but I'm not quite sure how we would tie that into gameplay.
 

KingStevenofEarth

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I'm hoping this mod is available soon. Do you have any update for us on it? Or any further questions regarding history? What I don't know, I can always research and I truly do enjoy giving history lessons lol.
 
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Eurypontid CoA.png

The Eurypontids of Sparta - a History Teaser

Amongst the city-states of Greece, Sparta has the unique distinction of being ruled by two kings representing their two royal lines: the Agiads and Eurypontids. The latter claim descent from the semi-mythical Prokles, who in turn is said to be a descendent of Herakles himself. Whilst considered junior to the Agiads, over the past 800 years the Eurypontids have nevertheless produced many noteworthy kings and other prominent figures:​

Eurypontidai.jpeg

One big happy family! Note that ruler titles are a work-in-progress

More recently, the Eurypontids have fallen on hard times. After Archidamos IV suffered a humiliating defeat against the Macedonians, he and his successor Eudamidas II have been effectively sidelined by their Agiad counterparts. Eudamidas' position in 275 BC is not one to envy - the man himself appears to have been at best reclusive, at worst incompetent judging from his complete absence from the decrees, coinage and events of this period. If he cannot produce a decent heir, perhaps the family's fortunes lie instead with his sister Archidameia, a prominent landowner well-regarded by her peers, and her own children.​

Eurypontidai Closeup.jpeg

The Eurypontids in 275 BC

Also worth mentioning are the dynasty's two cadet branches descended from princes deemed illegitimate and cast out. Neither branch starts in a great position - Chilonis of the Latychids is in an unhappy (and patrilineal) marriage to Kleonymos of the Agiads, whilst the Damaratids seem too far away to influence the affairs of Sparta having spent the past two centuries ruling a fiefdom in Asia Minor.

We're looking forward to seeing what you as the player can achieve with these starts! And stay tuned, we'll be showing off the Agiad line and perhaps some extra info about the Spartan kingship this coming week.​
 
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Super7700

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I'm hoping this mod is available soon. Do you have any update for us on it? Or any further questions regarding history? What I don't know, I can always research and I truly do enjoy giving history lessons lol.

We're hoping that we can put out our first release by mid-2021, but there's still a lot of work to do before that and we don't want to rush things - keep in mind we're only a small team though we're doing our best!
 

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Will you add some oliganthropia modifier for them?


Currently we're looking at representing this with a unique 'issue' that will appear in the city-state UI we teased earlier. As such there would likely be modifiers, events and decisions related to the consequences of oliganthropia as well as potential solutions. We've talked about wanting to give players the chance to carry out reforms similar to those enacted by Agis IV, Kleomenes III or Nabis, though we haven't quite nailed the specifics of how this would work yet.
 
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Gurkhal

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One idea in regards to Sparta and the Spartiates is that the Spartans could start with a few Spartiate MAA, that can only be created anew by events spawned in certain situatuons, represent the small number of Spartiates and not easily replaced after a major loss, but would kick ass to allow Sparta to punch above its weight.
 

Super7700

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One idea in regards to Sparta and the Spartiates is that the Spartans could start with a few Spartiate MAA, that can only be created anew by events spawned in certain situatuons, represent the small number of Spartiates and not easily replaced after a major loss, but would kick ass to allow Sparta to punch above its weight.

Reducing their MaA limit would make a lot of sense I think, though giving them starting troops might mess up the balance in the region (unless we gave everyone else MaAs at game-start...)
 

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Agiad CoA.png

The Agiads of Sparta

Sparta's senior royal house, the Agiads, claim descent from Herakles via the legendary Eurysthenes who lived some 800 years before our start-date (and yes, the family tree we've put together goes back that far). By 275 BC, Sparta has been seriously weakened following their loss of Messenia and the Thyreatis, but the Agiads seem poised for something great - basileus Areus has already come to dominate the Spartan political scene at the expense of his Eurypontid counterpart, and now he seemingly looks to establish himself as a king in the Macedonian fashion with no ephors or co-ruler to temper his authority.

But what's good for Areus may not be good for Sparta. The soft luxuries that he introduces to court threaten to corrupt the values that made Sparta such a formiddable foe in bygone times. The celebrated agoge has fallen by the wayside, and rising inequality and a declining citizen population will pose a significant challenge to future military capabilities.

Meanwhile, his uncle Cleonymus, the regent-turned-adventurer-turned-claimant sits in Troizen with the garrison he's established, waiting for an opportunity to place himself on the throne. He also seeks vengeance, after his wife Chilonis is discovered having an affair with Areus' son, the crown prince Acrotatus. His own force is insufficient for invading Sparta, but perhaps he can persuade a more powerful ruler to assist him...

Can Areus manage these crises, internal and external, or will someone else need to take up that mantle?

Agiadai.jpeg

As for how we're going to portray the dual kingship of Sparta, it's still very much a work in progress but here's one little thing we've done so far:

council_test.jpeg
 
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tribnia

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I think it ultimately depends on how tolerant the overlords are - had the Maccabean revolts failed, I imagine there could've been considerable suppression of Judaism and its priestly castes under the Seleucids, at least while Antiochus IV was alive. Don't worry though - we're already looking to make religions spread considerably slower than in vanilla, and I'm personally quite keen to remove the 'convert county' court chaplain task or at least make it a bit more random.

County modifiers are probably the best way to indicate where cults are located, though we are also looking to have a dedicated UI for religious cults, perhaps along the lines of CK2's societies. However that isn't something we've discussed in detail yet, as we'll probably wait till we've expanded the map further east to the areas where many of these cults originated. Having mechanics of some sort for philosophical schools would be good too, but I'm not quite sure how we would tie that into gameplay.
Couldn't be worse than Babylonian Captivity, isn't it?
I think an easy way could be giving every mystery cult a special landless title, from this court they would send preachers to approach other rulers, like in vanilla game. But less ambitious, and less interesting.
 
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Super7700

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Couldn't be worse than Babylonian Captivity, isn't it?
I think an easy way could be giving every mystery cult a special landless title, from this court they would send preachers to approach other rulers, like in vanilla game. But less ambitious, and less interesting.

That's an option too, we'll just need to work out how to make joining a cult something that's relevant to gameplay, since there's little point in us adding new mechanics if there's no reason for the player to utilise them. If anyone's got ideas to that end we'd definitely be interested to hear them.
 

Marsius

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Greetings.Thank you all for this amazing mod and hard work, it thank toy you guys the modders make the game becomes a gem by enhancing with ideas and work those missing features. I have a question : Is it possible to suggest to add Ilyrian cities and Epirus cities with also names of people with references of Hellenized Illyrian names? I have references [* give a bit time so it approves from mods due to filters]

Returning the cities names to pre-slavic invasion and pre-ottoman invasions[ forced conversion of names and religion and conversion through very heavy punishing taxes and propaganda] to Hellenistic and illyrian citiy names and people names would be amazing.


Would really appreciate if you guys can take in consideration. Thank you in advance and keep the good work. Best regards.
 
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Gurkhal

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Reducing their MaA limit would make a lot of sense I think, though giving them starting troops might mess up the balance in the region (unless we gave everyone else MaAs at game-start...)

Well, in regards to Greece I'm not sure this would be such a problem. After all the Greek poleis are famous for their warlike disposition and with seas on all sides and Macedon and Epirus being their northern borders I don't think that it would make small Greek states expand wildly into tribal areas.

***

On a different note. How developed do you intend to let Greece, and other parts, start off as? The reason I ask this is that I personally dislike symmetric starts where Athens is as developed, or not so, as some half-way backwater up in northern Epirus.

And yes, I think that places like Greece, the Fertile Crescent, Egypt etc. should start off as more developed than what you find in for example the lands east of the Rhine and so on.
 

Super7700

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Greetings.Thank you all for this amazing mod and hard work, it thank toy you guys the modders make the game becomes a gem by enhancing with ideas and work those missing features. I have a question : Is it possible to suggest to add Ilyrian cities and Epirus cities with also names of people with references of Hellenized Illyrian names? I have references [* give a bit time so it approves from mods due to filters]

Returning the cities names to pre-slavic invasion and pre-ottoman invasions[ forced conversion of names and religion and conversion through very heavy punishing taxes and propaganda] to Hellenistic and illyrian citiy names and people names would be amazing.


Would really appreciate if you guys can take in consideration. Thank you in advance and keep the good work. Best regards.
Thank you for your kind words! We're putting a lot of time into researching place names & personal names to make sure they're historically accurate, so we'd be keen to see those references once you're able to send them through.
 

Super7700

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Well, in regards to Greece I'm not sure this would be such a problem. After all the Greek poleis are famous for their warlike disposition and with seas on all sides and Macedon and Epirus being their northern borders I don't think that it would make small Greek states expand wildly into tribal areas.

Fair point, though keep in mind there were many non-Greek areas known for their warlike disposition so ideally we'd want to be consistent rather than giving Greece even more special treatment

On a different note. How developed do you intend to let Greece, and other parts, start off as? The reason I ask this is that I personally dislike symmetric starts where Athens is as developed, or not so, as some half-way backwater up in northern Epirus.

And yes, I think that places like Greece, the Fertile Crescent, Egypt etc. should start off as more developed than what you find in for example the lands east of the Rhine and so on.

We haven't done any work setting development levels yet, but when we do get around to it we'll be making sure there is a noticeable disparity between urbanised & non-urbanised locations. We're also considering doubling or otherwise increasing the benefits you get from development to make it even more noticeable.
 
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