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Paciaire

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Thanks for that information, in the case of the colonies we're actually considering introducing a colony holding which would be focused on garrison strength and culture conversion. It would also be available for other cultures that practiced colonisation, so we can represent the klerouchoi and katoikoi in Asia and Egypt for instance

Of nothing, Cultural conversion in Italy occured later though, via full citizenship granting, thats more a 80 BC to augustean era process. I think if you could have full citizenship through actual "feudal contract" options increasing chances of conversion to latin It would be better than just with military colonies, considering these colonies were really modest and socii retained their local administration for long(and coinage, language, military organization...etc).


Thats from this law the latin made spectacular progressions among populations:

 

KingStevenofEarth

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I might be mistaken, but from what I've read I got the impression that at this mod's start date (275 BC) the Romans didn't yet have a standing army - they had the four legions (and would raise additional ones if the situation demanded it) but these were levied from the population as opposed to being long-term volunteers. If this is the case, the early army can probably be modelled in game with the existing MaA mechanics - they're trained troops and can be raised fairly quickly, but they're not yet permanent armies that can be stationed across the realm. From there it seems the legions with permanent stations that you're referring to would only emerge later in the game once the Romans have expanded beyond Italy and need to maintain permanent garrisons on their borders.

Those events would make sense, and definitely it would be good to tie it into a regional governor system which would then open up interesting possibilities such as legions becoming loyal to their commander instead of the republic, or a wealthy governor raising legions of their own without senatorial approval in order to pursue their ambitions.
You are correct. In 275 Rome had four standing legions, and could and would raise more as needed for each campaign. This continued until Gaius Marius reformed the legions (107BC) into permanent standing armies in addition to the four that were already permanent. Until the reforms a requirement ot be a legionaries was that you had to be a land owner. After the reformations this practice was abolished and soldiers could volunteer for a minimum term of six years and a fixed salary. These standing armies then became the core of Rome's military might, and conscription was used to replenish, replace, and form legions.
However at the same time, Marius' reformations and placement of regional 'governors' is what eventually allowed Julius Caesar to cross the Rubicon with an army of Legionaries that was loyal to him, not Rome as these 'governors' would raise legions without senate approval, and their placement far from Rome meant that such soldiers stationed under one person for such a long time would eventually become more loyal to one person than to the Republic. This is the reason most modern armies routinely replace commanders after a period of two-three years, and higher level officers are also routinely replaced and watched with greater oversight (Generals), although in times of crisis one commander is often selected to lead all forces (MacArthur in WWII) for the duration.\
I digress though, I'm not attempting to lecture a room full of students who only have a passing interest if at all in History, and thus won't bore you with the details of history and how Rome still influences the world at large even though both parts of the Empire have long since fallen. I will however, continue my mini-lecture on the history of the Roman Legions since I seem to have an audience interested.

Prior to 101BC more often than not, Rome would have it's allies (territories controlled by Rome, but not considered part of Rome, it's citizens were often not considered Rome prior to 101BC) form additional legions for their various Campaigns. In fact the Legions of the Late republic and early empire are often called Marian Legions because of his influence on the Roman military. One such reason is that after the battle of Vercellae in 101BC Marius granted all italian soldiers Roman Citizenship justifying this action to the senate by saying that in the din of battle he could not distinguish Roman from ally, effectively eliminating the notion of allied legions. From that point on all Italian legions were regarded as Roman legions and full citizenship to Rome was open to all regions of Italy.

In 101BC Marius also replaced the three types of heavy infantry with a single standard type based on the Principes, making their standard battle gear to heavy javelins called pila (I think it was called pilum in the singular terminology) a short sword that became known as the gladius, chain mail, helmet and the rectangular shields that would last throughout the rest of the Republic and Empire.

Auxiliary troops, called Auxilia would eventually take over the role of allied legions. Auxilia tended to contain specialist units like engineers, pioneers, artillerymen (bowmen) and craftsmen, service and support personnel, and irregular units made up of non-citizens, mercs, and local militia. These Auxilia would form units of Light Calvalry, light infantry, and labourers. Speculation exists, and is thought by most historians to be accurate that in addition to those units a reconnaissance squad of 10 or more light mounted infantry (speculatores) served as messengers, and as the early form of military intelligence units.

Part of the reforms also consisted of the standardization of the legions internal organization. Each legion was divided into Cohorts, whereas prior to this cohorts had been temporary admin units or tactical task forces of several maniples, being even more transitory than the legions themselves prior to the reformations. Each Cohort (of which ten existed per legion) were composed of 6 Centuries with the first cohort double the strength of the others for a total of 66 cohorts. Each Century consisted of ten units or Contubernia of eight men who shared a tent, millstone, mule and cooking pot, forming the earliest known squads used in modern warfare.

The six centuries of a normal cohort were, in order, the foward hastati, rear hastati, forwar principes, rear principes, forwar triarii, rear triarii being the sixth cohort.

After the reformations Cohorts came to form the basic tactical unit of the legions with ranking within the legion based on length of service with the senior centurion commanding the first century of the first cohort (Primus Pilus or first spear) who reported dirctly to the superior officers legates and tribuni. All career soldiers could be promoted to the higher ranks in recognition of exceptional acts of bravery or valour. The newest and most junior Centurion would be assigned to the sixth century of the tenth cohort and would slowly progress through the ranks to the Primus Pilus position through his actions in battle, death of other centurions, or their promotions or transfers. Each legion typically had a large baggage train in which one mule for every 8 legionaries would carry their equipment. This, given the size of the legions, would have a baggage train of 640 or more mules. As these baggage trains were so long marius instituted a policy where each infantryman carried as much of his own equipment as he could, including their armour, weapons, and 15 days rations which weighed about 50-60 pounds each. In order to lighten their load, and speed up their movement, each legioniare was issued a cross stick to carry their loads on their soldiers, indicating the first known example of modern military movements where each soldier carries their equipment, rations, and such in bags on their back during any and all movements. During this time the legions consisted of roughly 5120 soldiers, plus a large number of camp followers, servants and slaves. The biggest known legions were said to have reached 11,000 fighting men when including the auxiliaries.

The size of the legions varied depending on the number of conflicts currently engaged in, and the size of the Roman Republic/Empire. In fact during later years, the legions numbered 1,000 to allow for easier surveillance and garrisoning of Rome's vast territories.

After the refomations the threat of the legions forming a demagogue was recognized causing the senate to ban governors from leaving their provinces. Julius Caesar broke this rule when he crossed the Rubicon precipitating a constitutional crisis and causing numerous civil wars bringing an end to the republic and the formation of the Empire under Augustus in 27BC.

Legatus Augusti Pro Praetore- Imperial Legate: Was the commander of two or more legions, and also served as the governor of the province in which the legions he commanded were stationed. It was a senatorial rank, and was appointed by the Emperor or majority of the Senate during republic days, and held command for 3-4 years unless necessity dictated they hold it longer. This is the equivalent of the modern General.

Legatus Legionis- Legion Legate: Was the overall legion commander. The post was usually held by a senator appointed by the Emperor (or the senate during the republic), and held command for 3-4 years, but could serve for a much longer period if they wanted to/or were needed to as long as they retained the Emperors or the Senate's Support. In Provinces with only one Legion stationed they also served as the governor of the province. They also commanded the auxiliary units (the games levies and MAA regiments) attached to the legion even though they were not formally a part of the legions command structure.

Tribunus Laticlavius-Broad Band Tribune: was named for the broad striped tunic worn by men of senatorial rank and legally held the position of second in command of the legion although would not serve as such in battle. They were typically appointed by the Senate or the Emperor, however were often young, though semi-experienced. Because of age and experience they rarely served as the second in command during battle, but would take command of the legion as a whole if the legate died until a new one was appointed.

Praefectus Castrorum- Camp Prefect: Was the third in command of the legion, and generally a long serving veteran of lower social status than the tribunii whom he outranked. It was a requirement that he had previously served as the Primus Pilus and have finished his 25 years with the legions. They were the second in command during battle, but were mostly in charge of training a legion or commanding a cohort of auxiliaries as needed. The Legatus Legionis typically appointed them, but the senate or emperor could override the appointment. This however rarely happened as the neither the Senate nor the Emperor usually cared much for this position as the chances of their ever actually taking command of the legion as the Imperial Legate had the power to appoint temporary commanders of a legion in the case that both the legion legate and the tribunus laticlavuius were killed. The Emperor or the senate would occasionally appoint someone to the position in preparation for a larger role or to have them be watched more closely for either honors to be given or treason. There is anecdotal evidence that giving this position to legionnaires who had displayed exceptional valor or bravery.

Tribuni angusticlavii-Narrow Band Tribunes: Of which each legion had five. Lower ranking tribunes were normally from the equestrian (upper) class and had at least some years of prior military experience, they typically served as administrative officers (supply, etc.) This was often the first, but optional step in a young man's political career.

Centurions was an officer grade that included many ranks as Centurion's would start form the last century in the last cohort of a legion and work their way up to the position of Primus Pilus (commander of the first century of the first cohort). The Centurion of the first Century of each cohort was also the commander of the entire Cohort when in battle. These were known as the Pilus Prior. The seniority of the Pilus Prior centurions was followed by the other five century commanders were known as Primi ordines. There exist more formal terminology for the centurion ranks, and historians are divided on what the most accurate version is. My research indicates as many as Twenty one different ranks within the legions. Twenty within a single legion as the twenty first was the Legatus Legionis. Centurions could be considered the modern equivalent of a captain, or company commander.

Some of the lower ranks were the Optio, which was the equivalent of a modern first sergeant. They were the second in command of a cohort, and paid twice the basic wage. The Centurions had the authority to appoint their own Optio, although getting appointed as the Optio didn't automatically include a promotion to Centurion, it was considered the first step, and Optio's were rarely replaced when they didn't get the promotion to Centurion.

A Tesserarius was the guard commander, and acted as the seconds of the Optio's being paid 1.5 times the base wage. They were the third in command of century as well as keeper of the watchword, admin assistant to HQ staff and other duties. The closest modern equivalent would be either the position of staff sergeant or sergeant first class in the us army.

A Decurion commanded a calvalry unit of 10-30 eques legionis.

The lowest rank other than that of the basic trooper was the Decanus (sometimes knowns as the Discens) who commanded a contubernium or ten men tent party. The modern equivalent is probably closest to sergeant or corporal. There were also special duty posts, such as the eagle bearer, a signifer who bore a century's standard, a horn blower, immunes who were legionary soldiers who possessed specialized skills qualifying them for better pay and excusing them from labour and guard work. Engineers, artillerymen, musicians, clerks, quartermasters, drill and weapons instructors, carpenters, hunters, medical staff, and their equivalent of Military Police. Their status did not, however, exclude them from participating in battle when needed.

Historians believe, based on evidence and historical text (not all of which can be translated or fully understood, or even read so bear in mind that a lot of what we think we know about the romans is conjecture based on what we can translate.) Anyways from Marius onwards legionaries received 225 Denarii a year base rate. This stayed until Domitian increased it to 300 Denarii, and Septimius Severus increased it to 500 denarii a year. However, soldiers did not receive their full pay as a clothing and food tax was deducted. Legionnaires on campaigns often supplemented this income with the booty of war, plunder from enemy settlements, and looting the bodies of dead enemies (and allies). Slaves could also be claimed from the POW's and divided amongst the legion for later sale which brought a sizable supplement.

They also received a praemia (Veteran's benefit) on completion of their term of 25 years or more of service: this consisted of 3,000 denarii and/or a plot of farmland. Under Caracalla, this increased to 5,000 denarii.

Much like modern militaries the Romans, throughout their history, had harsh and not so harsh punishments for various infractions of their strictly enforced regulations. These included Castigatio, being hit by the centurion with his staff or animadversio fustium, a reduction of rations-being forced to eat barley instead of grain rations. Pecuniaria mulcta or reduction in pay, fines, or deductions from the pay allowance, flogging, whipping which was more brutal than a flogging, gradus deiectio or reduction in rank, missio ignominiosa or dishonorable discharge, loss of time in service advantages, relegation to inferior service or duties or additional duties.

The harsher punishments, Fustuarium was a sentence for deserters or dereliction of duty, in which a soldier was stoned or beated to death by his fellow soldiers or those whose lives had been put in danger. In extreme cases that a large group was sentences to this, the Tribune would select a handful from them to be stoned or beaten to death, the rest would be driven out of camp and forced to live in an defended location ofr a chosen period of time while being limited to eating only barley.
Decimation has never been proven although it's thought that the romans practiced this punishment in which a sentence was carried out against an entire unit that had mutinied, deserted, or shown dereliction of duty, where one out ten drawn by lots would be beaten to death by the other nine with their bare hands, after which they would be forced to live outside the camp and in some instances obliged to renew the military oath. Again this has never been proven.

Roman currency was 1 gold aureus = 2 gold quinarri = 25 silver denarii = 50 silver quinarii =100 bronze sestertii = 200 bronze dupondii - 400 copper assess = 800 copper semisses=1,600 copper quadrantes.

Yes, most if not all of this information is publically available and can be found in multiple places. I had to look up the pay and the currency. I also just realized that instead of the time period I should have been focused on, 275 BC, I've been focusing on mostly the Marius reformations as they lasted pretty much the same with some changes until the fall of both the east and western empires. I can tell you about the legions in 275BC as well, but this took a while to confirm my facts so that I didn't post false information, so if you want that info, I'll do it tomorrow.
 
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KingStevenofEarth

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Of nothing, Cultural conversion in Italy occured later though, via full citizenship granting, thats more a 80 BC to augustean era process. I think if you could have full citizenship through actual "feudal contract" options increasing chances of conversion to latin It would be better than just with military colonies, considering these colonies were really modest and socii retained their local administration for long(and coinage, language, military organization...etc).


Thats from this law the latin made spectacular progressions among populations:

The date is closer to 100BC than 80BC and the culture wasn't latin. It was Roman. The language was latin, yes, but the Roman culture was distinctly different from the latin Culture which is what the majority of italy was until the converted to Roman.
 

Paciaire

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The date is closer to 100BC than 80BC and the culture wasn't latin. It was Roman. The language was latin, yes, but the Roman culture was distinctly different from the latin Culture which is what the majority of italy was until the converted to Roman.

Hummm...no, you seem very confused.

Herenneis satteìs seganatted plavtad

fiuusiasaìs az húrtúm sakarater

húrz dekmanniúís staít

auleśi meteliś veluś vesial clenśi / cen flereś tece sanśl tenine / tu θineś χisvlicś


Does it sounds latin to you? The first and the last are two official dedications from circa 100 BC. Two languages used in daily lifes and incidently administrative languages of two polities part of roman military alliance, as socii.
 

KingStevenofEarth

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And yet, the majority of the ruling class spoke Latin, wrote Latin, and discussed their day to day activities in Latin. At that point in time there was literally dozens of languages within the Italian peninsula. And either way, the Roman Culture, is distinctly different from the Italian culture, and the Latin Culture, which was the point of my post.
Now, I get to give another history lesson! Latin comes from the Italic languages. It was not, however the only language spoken in the region of what would become Italy. In the 6th Century BC the italic people weren't interested in residing in the southern and central parts of italy, known at the time as guess what? Latium. Fun fact did you know that the Vatican is currently in that region? Anyways Italic languages, all of them, and believe me, there was quite a few at this point in time, are members of the Indo-European Language family, which includes a lot of dead languages, and current ones such as Italian, French Portuguese, Spanish and Romanian. But, while the Italic languages were spoken around what is now known as Italy, they were weren't originally from Italy. Most historians agree that they emigrated from the Balkans around 1500BC. Prior to the founding of Rome in 753BC historians believe that the Italic Languages were heavily influenced by Greek and Estrucans. Once Rome was created, however it became hugely important in spreading the Latin Language around the region. Latin inherited 6/8 of the grammatical cases from the Indo-european languages including: The Genitive, The Vocative, the Accusative, the Dative, the Ablative, and the Nominative.
So after Rome was founded it spread to the region and parts of Western Europe, Asia Minor, and North Africa. Now by the 3rd Century BC, Latin was the official language of the Roman Republic. It was used by the Roman Administration as well as for law, politics, and religion. While it did coexist with greek dialects, Latin quickly took over other languages as their leaders forbid people from speaking Greek in favor of Latin. That's Old Latin.
Clasic Latin entered it's golden age in 75BC and lasted until 14AD when Latin Literature played an important role in it's propagation. And because Rome was responsible for the spread of Latin, similarly, the Western Roman Empire led to it's decline. The further the Western Empire declined, the more the Latin Language began to be influenced by the Huns, and the Germanic Peoples, and indeed a resurgence of the Greek Culture. But latin still survived. While politicians, artist and academics continued to use classical latin, most Roman citizens used Vulgar Latin. Think the difference between British English and American English, although a closer example would probably be to look at the way the US Constitution, and other laws are written, and comparing them to everyday speech. With the collapse of the Western part of the Empire, the region began to fracture linguistically as the connecting factor was no longer there. Should I go on to the death of Latin completely or do you get my point?
 

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Of nothing, Cultural conversion in Italy occured later though, via full citizenship granting, thats more a 80 BC to augustean era process. I think if you could have full citizenship through actual "feudal contract" options increasing chances of conversion to latin It would be better than just with military colonies, considering these colonies were really modest and socii retained their local administration for long(and coinage, language, military organization...etc).


Thats from this law the latin made spectacular progressions among populations:


I like your idea of using vassal contracts to represent full citizenship, we can probably extend that to having separate contracts for Roman citizens, Latins, Socii, free cities etc. Since the province density in Italy will likely be significantly higher than in vanilla, the culture conversion effects of military colonies would only impact small areas and the vast majority of territory would retain their original culture until you grant them citizenship. So I think we can probably have culture conversion with both colonies and contracts.

You are correct. In 275 Rome had four standing legions, and could and would raise more as needed for each campaign. This continued until Gaius Marius reformed the legions (107BC) into permanent standing armies in addition to the four that were already permanent. Until the reforms a requirement ot be a legionaries was that you had to be a land owner. After the reformations this practice was abolished and soldiers could volunteer for a minimum term of six years and a fixed salary. These standing armies then became the core of Rome's military might, and conscription was used to replenish, replace, and form legions.
However at the same time, Marius' reformations and placement of regional 'governors' is what eventually allowed Julius Caesar to cross the Rubicon with an army of Legionaries that was loyal to him, not Rome as these 'governors' would raise legions without senate approval, and their placement far from Rome meant that such soldiers stationed under one person for such a long time would eventually become more loyal to one person than to the Republic. This is the reason most modern armies routinely replace commanders after a period of two-three years, and higher level officers are also routinely replaced and watched with greater oversight (Generals), although in times of crisis one commander is often selected to lead all forces (MacArthur in WWII) for the duration.\
I digress though, I'm not attempting to lecture a room full of students who only have a passing interest if at all in History, and thus won't bore you with the details of history and how Rome still influences the world at large even though both parts of the Empire have long since fallen. I will however, continue my mini-lecture on the history of the Roman Legions since I seem to have an audience interested.

....

Yes, most if not all of this information is publically available and can be found in multiple places. I had to look up the pay and the currency. I also just realized that instead of the time period I should have been focused on, 275 BC, I've been focusing on mostly the Marius reformations as they lasted pretty much the same with some changes until the fall of both the east and western empires. I can tell you about the legions in 275BC as well, but this took a while to confirm my facts so that I didn't post false information, so if you want that info, I'll do it tomorrow.

Lots of good information there, thank you so much for putting the time into writing that all up! The information regarding the post-Marian legions is still very much useful since ultimately we'd like to be able to model the different reformations in as dynamic a way as possible.

And I'd definitely love to hear your ideas for the Roman army at our 275 BC start date, it's certainly something we'd like to model accurately, or at least as much as possible within the limits of the game.

It all makes sense, you're right. Looking good!

Cheers! And do let me know if you've got any other questions or thoughts, it's always good to hear a range of perspectives so we're not just limited to the ideas that our small team come up with.

Hummm...no, you seem very confused.

Herenneis satteìs seganatted plavtad

fiuusiasaìs az húrtúm sakarater

húrz dekmanniúís staít

auleśi meteliś veluś vesial clenśi / cen flereś tece sanśl tenine / tu θineś χisvlicś


Does it sounds latin to you? The first and the last are two official dedications from circa 100 BC. Two languages used in daily lifes and incidently administrative languages of two polities part of roman military alliance, as socii.

And yet, the majority of the ruling class spoke Latin, wrote Latin, and discussed their day to day activities in Latin. At that point in time there was literally dozens of languages within the Italian peninsula. And either way, the Roman Culture, is distinctly different from the Italian culture, and the Latin Culture, which was the point of my post.
Now, I get to give another history lesson! Latin comes from the Italic languages. It was not, however the only language spoken in the region of what would become Italy. In the 6th Century BC the italic people weren't interested in residing in the southern and central parts of italy, known at the time as guess what? Latium. Fun fact did you know that the Vatican is currently in that region? Anyways Italic languages, all of them, and believe me, there was quite a few at this point in time, are members of the Indo-European Language family, which includes a lot of dead languages, and current ones such as Italian, French Portuguese, Spanish and Romanian. But, while the Italic languages were spoken around what is now known as Italy, they were weren't originally from Italy. Most historians agree that they emigrated from the Balkans around 1500BC. Prior to the founding of Rome in 753BC historians believe that the Italic Languages were heavily influenced by Greek and Estrucans. Once Rome was created, however it became hugely important in spreading the Latin Language around the region. Latin inherited 6/8 of the grammatical cases from the Indo-european languages including: The Genitive, The Vocative, the Accusative, the Dative, the Ablative, and the Nominative.
So after Rome was founded it spread to the region and parts of Western Europe, Asia Minor, and North Africa. Now by the 3rd Century BC, Latin was the official language of the Roman Republic. It was used by the Roman Administration as well as for law, politics, and religion. While it did coexist with greek dialects, Latin quickly took over other languages as their leaders forbid people from speaking Greek in favor of Latin. That's Old Latin.
Clasic Latin entered it's golden age in 75BC and lasted until 14AD when Latin Literature played an important role in it's propagation. And because Rome was responsible for the spread of Latin, similarly, the Western Roman Empire led to it's decline. The further the Western Empire declined, the more the Latin Language began to be influenced by the Huns, and the Germanic Peoples, and indeed a resurgence of the Greek Culture. But latin still survived. While politicians, artist and academics continued to use classical latin, most Roman citizens used Vulgar Latin. Think the difference between British English and American English, although a closer example would probably be to look at the way the US Constitution, and other laws are written, and comparing them to everyday speech. With the collapse of the Western part of the Empire, the region began to fracture linguistically as the connecting factor was no longer there. Should I go on to the death of Latin completely or do you get my point?

If I'm reading this correctly, I think you're actually both correct and are talking about slightly different things. Certainly by the 1st century BC it seems that the Latin language was in use well beyond the parts of Italy that had obtained citizenship, probably in part due to Socii being exposed to the language while on campaign. But it's also certain that other languages were still alive in the peninsula, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some artificial attempts to further preserve these languages around the time of the Social War - we see for instance Allied coinage with the Oscan legend "Viteliu" (i.e. Italy). I've actually spent some time researching the Oscan-Umbrian languages - we're looking at using reconstructed toponyms so the areas these groups control at game-start (and possibly beyond) aren't anachronistically using Latin.

Funnily enough I studied Latin at school and university, so I've got a decent idea of its history though there's still a few things there I wasn't aware of so I appreciate the lesson. We probably don't need to cover the death of the language however since that's verging on being off-topic.
 
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Paciaire

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And yet, the majority of the ruling class spoke Latin, wrote Latin, and discussed their day to day activities in Latin. At that point in time there was literally dozens of languages within the Italian peninsula. And either way, the Roman Culture, is distinctly different from the Italian culture, and the Latin Culture, which was the point of my post.
Now, I get to give another history lesson! Latin comes from the Italic languages. It was not, however the only language spoken in the region of what would become Italy. In the 6th Century BC the italic people weren't interested in residing in the southern and central parts of italy, known at the time as guess what? Latium.

The quotes I shared are literally local ruling classes from etruscan and oscan societies dedicating objects in public spaces(like temples or federal sanctuaries). And they're very close to the period it started to disappear in favor of latin so don't tell me latin was their language in third century BC.
By 275 BC all socii still had their own administrations performed in their own language and had their own coins, even those with civitas sine suffragio status.

If you want closer to Rome, look for Iguvine writtings, it provides examples of how relatively autonomous were socii in their own territory. Its from the 1st century BC and reminds which neighbouring peoples aren't welcome(all but their roman overlords...).
 
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KingStevenofEarth

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The quotes I shared are literally local ruling classes from etruscan and oscan societies dedicating objects in public spaces(like temples or federal sanctuaries). And they're very close to the period it started to disappear in favor of latin so don't tell me latin was their language in third century BC.
By 275 BC all socii still had their own administrations performed in their own language and had their own coins, even those with civitas sine suffragio status.

If you want closer to Rome, look for Iguvine writtings, it provides examples of how relatively autonomous were socii in their own territory. Its from the 1st century BC and reminds which neighbouring peoples aren't welcome(all but their roman overlords...).
I'm rather trying to be polite about this, but given that my dissertation for my Masters degree was on this time frame, in particular the evolution of Latin as both a language and a culture-and how it influenced the Regions around it-Rome in particular. Never once have I said that other languages didn't exist within the Roman Republic. Not once. However, Romans, as far back as our records indicate, were speaking Latin long before they became a Republic. It isn't a conjecture-by the third Century BC Latin was the official language of the Roman Republic, and it's influence on their culture was significant, but the Republic-nor the Empire ever forbade it's people from speaking a different language. That was done by the Governors or lower on their own as they had brought sweeping powers in regards to how they managed their regions. But I digress. The official language of the Republic, and Empire was Latin although their Italian allies didn't adopt Latin as the official language for themselves until long after the republic did. By the time they did, it mattered little because they were already under the control of the roman republic/empire.
 

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I like your idea of using vassal contracts to represent full citizenship, we can probably extend that to having separate contracts for Roman citizens, Latins, Socii, free cities etc. Since the province density in Italy will likely be significantly higher than in vanilla, the culture conversion effects of military colonies would only impact small areas and the vast majority of territory would retain their original culture until you grant them citizenship. So I think we can probably have culture conversion with both colonies and contracts.
This is a good idea, vassal contracts being used for full citizenship.
Lots of good information there, thank you so much for putting the time into writing that all up! The information regarding the post-Marian legions is still very much useful since ultimately we'd like to be able to model the different reformations in as dynamic a way as possible.

And I'd definitely love to hear your ideas for the Roman army at our 275 BC start date, it's certainly something we'd like to model accurately, or at least as much as possible within the limits of the game.
As far as how to implement this, after further thought, I realized that the best way to do this would be a decision that creates legions-but cost gold and prestige and can only be done every so often say five years or maybe ten? Another decision to base legions somewhere with an added on decision to create garrisons there. Again costing gold and prestige for every garrison created. Yet another decision to appoint the Legatus Augusti Pro Praetore of multiple legions only available every four years, same with the Legatus Legionis, and Tribunis Laticlavius, with additional mechanic that allows you to appoint someone else to the positions should the holders die. I think that would work better than an event would. As far as going from the way the legions worked in 275BC to after the marius reformations, a reform decision, can only be done once, and costs a massive amount of gold and prestige. The garrisons though really only came about under Augustus. Prior to that legions as a whole were typically stationed at one spot say like Modern day Berlin, and the commanding officer would just send the required units to do whatever they needed to before they returned to the base. By doing garrisons Augustus was able to streamline their movements, and efficiency as a single garrison of 100 could react to a situation within a certain distance a lot quicker than if they had to march from miles away. That is not to say that garrisons could not be used before that, but it wasn't until then that it truly became a bigger impact.

As far as what the legions looked like in 275BC, as stated earlier, I can get that typed up at a later time today (it's 4:14am local time and I haven't slept yet so my patience isn't very high right now.) I just know that I'm looking forward to playing this mod regardless because of the opportunities. After all, this was the time period that so many interesting things happened. I'm looking forward to completely changing history, on both sides. I'm also looking forward to the opportunity to turn Rome into an Empire long before Julius Ceaser did. That would be pretty fun. It'll also be fun to play as a republic though, and a tyrannical peasant rising up to grasp power and using the most extreme methods to hold onto it long enough that any other claimants to whatever title are long dead.

If you keep the vanilla end date of 1453, will you have the same culture eras? Or are you going to include the Classical and Late antiquity periods? The Classical Antiquity stretched between 8th Century BC and the 3rd Century AD. The Late Antiquity period, (which not everyone historian agrees with the separating the late antiquity period from the classical antiquity, and the term is often used to simply denotate the change into the middle ages) so some records will say that it lasted until the the 8th Century AD, while others will have the Classical end in the 3rd Century AD and end in the 8th.
 

Super7700

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The quotes I shared are literally local ruling classes from etruscan and oscan societies dedicating objects in public spaces(like temples or federal sanctuaries). And they're very close to the period it started to disappear in favor of latin so don't tell me latin was their language in third century BC.
By 275 BC all socii still had their own administrations performed in their own language and had their own coins, even those with civitas sine suffragio status.

If you want closer to Rome, look for Iguvine writtings, it provides examples of how relatively autonomous were socii in their own territory. Its from the 1st century BC and reminds which neighbouring peoples aren't welcome(all but their roman overlords...).
I'm rather trying to be polite about this, but given that my dissertation for my Masters degree was on this time frame, in particular the evolution of Latin as both a language and a culture-and how it influenced the Regions around it-Rome in particular. Never once have I said that other languages didn't exist within the Roman Republic. Not once. However, Romans, as far back as our records indicate, were speaking Latin long before they became a Republic. It isn't a conjecture-by the third Century BC Latin was the official language of the Roman Republic, and it's influence on their culture was significant, but the Republic-nor the Empire ever forbade it's people from speaking a different language. That was done by the Governors or lower on their own as they had brought sweeping powers in regards to how they managed their regions. But I digress. The official language of the Republic, and Empire was Latin although their Italian allies didn't adopt Latin as the official language for themselves until long after the republic did. By the time they did, it mattered little because they were already under the control of the roman republic/empire.

I think you're both misinterpreting each other - no one claimed that the Romans weren't using Latin as their main language in this period, and no one claimed that the non-Roman allies had already abandoned their own languages entirely by the first century BC.

This is a good idea, vassal contracts being used for full citizenship.

As far as how to implement this, after further thought, I realized that the best way to do this would be a decision that creates legions-but cost gold and prestige and can only be done every so often say five years or maybe ten? Another decision to base legions somewhere with an added on decision to create garrisons there. Again costing gold and prestige for every garrison created. Yet another decision to appoint the Legatus Augusti Pro Praetore of multiple legions only available every four years, same with the Legatus Legionis, and Tribunis Laticlavius, with additional mechanic that allows you to appoint someone else to the positions should the holders die. I think that would work better than an event would. As far as going from the way the legions worked in 275BC to after the marius reformations, a reform decision, can only be done once, and costs a massive amount of gold and prestige. The garrisons though really only came about under Augustus. Prior to that legions as a whole were typically stationed at one spot say like Modern day Berlin, and the commanding officer would just send the required units to do whatever they needed to before they returned to the base. By doing garrisons Augustus was able to streamline their movements, and efficiency as a single garrison of 100 could react to a situation within a certain distance a lot quicker than if they had to march from miles away. That is not to say that garrisons could not be used before that, but it wasn't until then that it truly became a bigger impact.

As far as what the legions looked like in 275BC, as stated earlier, I can get that typed up at a later time today (it's 4:14am local time and I haven't slept yet so my patience isn't very high right now.) I just know that I'm looking forward to playing this mod regardless because of the opportunities. After all, this was the time period that so many interesting things happened. I'm looking forward to completely changing history, on both sides. I'm also looking forward to the opportunity to turn Rome into an Empire long before Julius Ceaser did. That would be pretty fun. It'll also be fun to play as a republic though, and a tyrannical peasant rising up to grasp power and using the most extreme methods to hold onto it long enough that any other claimants to whatever title are long dead.

If you keep the vanilla end date of 1453, will you have the same culture eras? Or are you going to include the Classical and Late antiquity periods? The Classical Antiquity stretched between 8th Century BC and the 3rd Century AD. The Late Antiquity period, (which not everyone historian agrees with the separating the late antiquity period from the classical antiquity, and the term is often used to simply denotate the change into the middle ages) so some records will say that it lasted until the the 8th Century AD, while others will have the Classical end in the 3rd Century AD and end in the 8th.

Those ideas for the legionary organisation are nice and could possibly work, though I'm somewhat cautious about incorporating too many minor decisions and titles for the player to interact with - generally speaking, if players feel like a feature is micro intensive yet has limited effect on their gameplay, they're quite likely to ignore it altogether. As for reforms, I think a special decision makes sense, but perhaps rather than a one-off decision with fixed effects we could look at doing something more dynamic where the player can actually choose what sort of changes they will make, e.g. whether to make soldiers pay for their own equipment. In this particular example I can imagine that soldiers paying would improve MaAs (i.e. the nobility) at the expense of levies, whilst state-provided equipment leads to the reverse (no more fancy breastplates for the triarii...). My lack of coding expertise means I don't know how feasible this actually is, but if it does work then it could increase depth across the map, and it would still be possible for us to give cultures like the Romans unique flavour under this mechanic.

I'm glad you're looking forward to those things, the city-state mechanics we're working on will hopefully offer some neat opportunities to sway the populace to your cause and even seize absolute power as a tyrant. As part of this we'd probably also want to introduce a dictator mechanic for the Romans and other relevant cultures, though we haven't discussed how we might go about that yet.

Regarding the end date, it's highly unlikely that we'll have any content relating to the late Romans or the transition to the medieval era. Our mod's scope is already very ambitious as is - we could quite easily spend the next few years just doing content for the Hellenistic world - and if we were to extend the timeline we'd need to spend a considerable amount of time implementing features, events and flavour appropriate to that period. Thankfully however, there is another project in the works focused specifically on the late-Roman/early-medieval period - it's called When the World Stopped Making Sense and if the CK2 mod is anything to go by, the CK3 version is going to be very good.
 

KingStevenofEarth

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I think you're both misinterpreting each other - no one claimed that the Romans weren't using Latin as their main language in this period, and no one claimed that the non-Roman allies had already abandoned their own languages entirely by the first century BC.



Those ideas for the legionary organisation are nice and could possibly work, though I'm somewhat cautious about incorporating too many minor decisions and titles for the player to interact with - generally speaking, if players feel like a feature is micro intensive yet has limited effect on their gameplay, they're quite likely to ignore it altogether. As for reforms, I think a special decision makes sense, but perhaps rather than a one-off decision with fixed effects we could look at doing something more dynamic where the player can actually choose what sort of changes they will make, e.g. whether to make soldiers pay for their own equipment. In this particular example I can imagine that soldiers paying would improve MaAs (i.e. the nobility) at the expense of levies, whilst state-provided equipment leads to the reverse (no more fancy breastplates for the triarii...). My lack of coding expertise means I don't know how feasible this actually is, but if it does work then it could increase depth across the map, and it would still be possible for us to give cultures like the Romans unique flavour under this mechanic.

I'm glad you're looking forward to those things, the city-state mechanics we're working on will hopefully offer some neat opportunities to sway the populace to your cause and even seize absolute power as a tyrant. As part of this we'd probably also want to introduce a dictator mechanic for the Romans and other relevant cultures, though we haven't discussed how we might go about that yet.

Regarding the end date, it's highly unlikely that we'll have any content relating to the late Romans or the transition to the medieval era. Our mod's scope is already very ambitious as is - we could quite easily spend the next few years just doing content for the Hellenistic world - and if we were to extend the timeline we'd need to spend a considerable amount of time implementing features, events and flavour appropriate to that period. Thankfully however, there is another project in the works focused specifically on the late-Roman/early-medieval period - it's called When the World Stopped Making Sense and if the CK2 mod is anything to go by, the CK3 version is going to be very good.
I'm aware of the mod. I'm also following it waiting for it to come to out. However, I don't think it's necessary to create content for the middle ages since with the start date being in 275BC by the earliest natural starting point in the vanila history will have changed dramatically already, but I do think that having content for the classical and late antiquity is important. I'll admit that this mod will definitely allow for far greater enjoyment since you'll be able to form the Roman Empire earlier than it actually happened, and you'll be able to prevent it's collapse, and more. As far as the decisions on reforms go, a static reform decision, instead of choosing what reforms would be easiest. I don't know much about coding but I do know that to do it as you described would take longer, and be harder than a simple decision to enact the marius reforms, although I do like the thought of being able to chose the changes, like increasing soldiers pay, or making them pay for their own gear. That's something you'd have to talk to whoever is doing the coding for it and see if they could do it, or if they think it'd be easier to simply do the minor decisions. As far as being able to chose who leads what legion, I think that definitely needs to be in there as it would play a huge part in it. After all if you chose the wrong person they could try and take over the Republic like Ceaser did, or certain powerful senators want the position and by giving it to them they're more likely to work with you or something along those lines. Similar to how the vanila version works with the placement on the council.

As far as how the legions worked prior to that-well I'm working on fact checking what I know about it now, and will have the pre-marius reforms information for you shortly. To be completely honest, I'm really enjoying teaching people about this stuff. All my titles, from soldier to son, brother, friend, student, uncle-I think I get the most joy out of being a teacher. Sharing my passion with others who have interest, especially in a day and age when not many care for history, it brings me a special kind of joy. Sounds cliche I know but I always did want to be a teacher-especially to those who truly share that same passion. Does that make any sense?
 

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Not much is truly known about the way the legions worked prior to the reforms, although we do have some information. In the later years of the Roman Kingdom, and the early days of the Republic forces are described as being organized into centuries of roughly one hundred men, and these were grouped together as required, answering to the leader who had hired or raised them. Very little information of the Roman Kingdom survives and as such, it's history is shrouded in myths. We do know that some positions were created during this time such as the standard bearers, the second in command and the formalization of the centurion. We also know that during the rule of Servius Tullius the practice of creating a census started. Citizens were divided into five classes for military service based on their wealth and that military service was both a duty and a distinguishing mark of Roman citizenship. The more wealth you had the longer you served as you more to lose should the state fall.

This is the earliest known information, and all of it, regarding the legions prior to 509BC. The following is the information that we know happened between 509-107BC.

At some point, possibly in the beginning of the republic, or possibly after as much as a decade since the forming of the republic, the Legio, one single legion, was divided into two separate legions with each consul being in charge of one. Given that warfare of this time still mostly concentrated on raiding, it isn't known if the full power of either legion was ever raised. Historical records indicate that when three foreign threats emerged in 494BC, the dictator Manius Valerius Maximus raised ten full legions, a number that is debated given the size of the republic at this time, and given that ten legions was a number far greater than had ever been raised before then. It is also doubted that ten legions were raised because some warfare was still being conducted by Roman forces that didn't exist within the legionary structure. One famous, and well known example is the campaign in 479 BC by the clan army of gens Fabia against the Etruscan city of Veii, with the clan forces being utterly annihilated. The fourth century BC as Roman warfare evolved from small raiding parties, to larger more organized and planned campaigns the number of standing legions was raised from two to four. Legions I-IV were the only permanent standing legions during this time until the Marius reforms with other legions being levied by the campaign and from Italian allies who provided approximately ten cohorts per legion, although most historians agree that these served as auxiliary forces and were not organized into official legions.

During the middle of the republic, legions were known to be composed of these units, although some evidence of additional units exists, by has not been confirmed. The units we do know existed during this time was the Equites (cavalry) which was the most prestigious unit and made up of the wealthy young roman men laying foundations for their skill and prowess for an eventual political career. Cavalrymen purchased their own equipment which consisted of a round shield, helmet, body armour, sword, and one or more lances. Each legion only had about 300 cavalry out of the roughly 3,000 men from each unit. Velites (or light infantry) was mainly poor citizens who couldn't afford to equip themselves properly and thusly their primary function was as cannon fodder and acting as skirmishers harassing an enemy. They also served as scouts.
Heavy infantry was the primary unit of a legion. the Heavy infantry was composed of citizen legionaries that could afford the equipment composing of an iron helmet, shield, armour, and pilum. After 387BC this also included the gladius.

Hastati was consisted of raw and inexperienced soldiers and were considered less reliable and served as the front line for those reasons. A more experienced soldier was valued more than a fresh recruit, and service on the front line more often than not meant death.
The Princeipes were more experienced soldiers, and often better equipped than the hastati. They made up the second line in the battle in case the Hastati failed or fled.
The triarii were veteran soldiers, to be used in battle only in extreme situations. They functioned as reserve soldiers designed to backstop the hastati and principes and were equipped with long spears. They tended to fight in a phalanx formation which often discouraged enemies from perusing the retreating Hastati and Princeipes.
Each of these lines was subdivided into chief tactical units called maniples which consisted of two centuries and was commanded by the senior of the two centurions. A hastati and principes of this time consisted of 60 men, a century of Triarii was 30 men. Twenty maniples of 120 men and ten maniples of 60 men, together with the light infantry and cavalry of the time gave a mid republican legion roughly 4500 men.
Again, because of the age and evolution of latin, as well as the various sackings of rome, a lot of information regarding the Roman Kingdom and early republic has been lost to time forever, leaving what's left shrouded in myths and legends. There is more information than what's above, but the majority of confirmed information regarding the Roman legions came from the Marius Reformations. Prior to that, admittedly not much is known about the way the legions worked.
 

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I'm aware of the mod. I'm also following it waiting for it to come to out. However, I don't think it's necessary to create content for the middle ages since with the start date being in 275BC by the earliest natural starting point in the vanila history will have changed dramatically already, but I do think that having content for the classical and late antiquity is important. I'll admit that this mod will definitely allow for far greater enjoyment since you'll be able to form the Roman Empire earlier than it actually happened, and you'll be able to prevent it's collapse, and more. As far as the decisions on reforms go, a static reform decision, instead of choosing what reforms would be easiest. I don't know much about coding but I do know that to do it as you described would take longer, and be harder than a simple decision to enact the marius reforms, although I do like the thought of being able to chose the changes, like increasing soldiers pay, or making them pay for their own gear. That's something you'd have to talk to whoever is doing the coding for it and see if they could do it, or if they think it'd be easier to simply do the minor decisions. As far as being able to chose who leads what legion, I think that definitely needs to be in there as it would play a huge part in it. After all if you chose the wrong person they could try and take over the Republic like Ceaser did, or certain powerful senators want the position and by giving it to them they're more likely to work with you or something along those lines. Similar to how the vanila version works with the placement on the council.

As far as how the legions worked prior to that-well I'm working on fact checking what I know about it now, and will have the pre-marius reforms information for you shortly. To be completely honest, I'm really enjoying teaching people about this stuff. All my titles, from soldier to son, brother, friend, student, uncle-I think I get the most joy out of being a teacher. Sharing my passion with others who have interest, especially in a day and age when not many care for history, it brings me a special kind of joy. Sounds cliche I know but I always did want to be a teacher-especially to those who truly share that same passion. Does that make any sense?

As I've said, the amount of work required to implement mechanics, flavour and everything else we'd need to reflect the massive change happening during late antiquity is substantial, and as nice as it would be it's not really feasible for a mod team of our size. We could have a late game invasion or migration of some sort mirroring Genghis Khan from vanilla, but even that would likely only be implemented much further down the line. As for the reforms, for sure it would be a lot more work to have a dynamic system, but I think it would be more interesting for gameplay and perhaps more historically accurate to allow for gradual reforms. Also we've got a lot of information about reforms elsewhere in the Hellenistic world, so it makes sense for such a mechanic to be broadly accessible.

Not much is truly known about the way the legions worked prior to the reforms, although we do have some information. In the later years of the Roman Kingdom, and the early days of the Republic forces are described as being organized into centuries of roughly one hundred men, and these were grouped together as required, answering to the leader who had hired or raised them. Very little information of the Roman Kingdom survives and as such, it's history is shrouded in myths. We do know that some positions were created during this time such as the standard bearers, the second in command and the formalization of the centurion. We also know that during the rule of Servius Tullius the practice of creating a census started. Citizens were divided into five classes for military service based on their wealth and that military service was both a duty and a distinguishing mark of Roman citizenship. The more wealth you had the longer you served as you more to lose should the state fall.

This is the earliest known information, and all of it, regarding the legions prior to 509BC. The following is the information that we know happened between 509-107BC.

At some point, possibly in the beginning of the republic, or possibly after as much as a decade since the forming of the republic, the Legio, one single legion, was divided into two separate legions with each consul being in charge of one. Given that warfare of this time still mostly concentrated on raiding, it isn't known if the full power of either legion was ever raised. Historical records indicate that when three foreign threats emerged in 494BC, the dictator Manius Valerius Maximus raised ten full legions, a number that is debated given the size of the republic at this time, and given that ten legions was a number far greater than had ever been raised before then. It is also doubted that ten legions were raised because some warfare was still being conducted by Roman forces that didn't exist within the legionary structure. One famous, and well known example is the campaign in 479 BC by the clan army of gens Fabia against the Etruscan city of Veii, with the clan forces being utterly annihilated. The fourth century BC as Roman warfare evolved from small raiding parties, to larger more organized and planned campaigns the number of standing legions was raised from two to four. Legions I-IV were the only permanent standing legions during this time until the Marius reforms with other legions being levied by the campaign and from Italian allies who provided approximately ten cohorts per legion, although most historians agree that these served as auxiliary forces and were not organized into official legions.

During the middle of the republic, legions were known to be composed of these units, although some evidence of additional units exists, by has not been confirmed. The units we do know existed during this time was the Equites (cavalry) which was the most prestigious unit and made up of the wealthy young roman men laying foundations for their skill and prowess for an eventual political career. Cavalrymen purchased their own equipment which consisted of a round shield, helmet, body armour, sword, and one or more lances. Each legion only had about 300 cavalry out of the roughly 3,000 men from each unit. Velites (or light infantry) was mainly poor citizens who couldn't afford to equip themselves properly and thusly their primary function was as cannon fodder and acting as skirmishers harassing an enemy. They also served as scouts.
Heavy infantry was the primary unit of a legion. the Heavy infantry was composed of citizen legionaries that could afford the equipment composing of an iron helmet, shield, armour, and pilum. After 387BC this also included the gladius.

Hastati was consisted of raw and inexperienced soldiers and were considered less reliable and served as the front line for those reasons. A more experienced soldier was valued more than a fresh recruit, and service on the front line more often than not meant death.
The Princeipes were more experienced soldiers, and often better equipped than the hastati. They made up the second line in the battle in case the Hastati failed or fled.
The triarii were veteran soldiers, to be used in battle only in extreme situations. They functioned as reserve soldiers designed to backstop the hastati and principes and were equipped with long spears. They tended to fight in a phalanx formation which often discouraged enemies from perusing the retreating Hastati and Princeipes.
Each of these lines was subdivided into chief tactical units called maniples which consisted of two centuries and was commanded by the senior of the two centurions. A hastati and principes of this time consisted of 60 men, a century of Triarii was 30 men. Twenty maniples of 120 men and ten maniples of 60 men, together with the light infantry and cavalry of the time gave a mid republican legion roughly 4500 men.
Again, because of the age and evolution of latin, as well as the various sackings of rome, a lot of information regarding the Roman Kingdom and early republic has been lost to time forever, leaving what's left shrouded in myths and legends. There is more information than what's above, but the majority of confirmed information regarding the Roman legions came from the Marius Reformations. Prior to that, admittedly not much is known about the way the legions worked.

Cool thank you for that information!
 

KingStevenofEarth

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As I've said, the amount of work required to implement mechanics, flavour and everything else we'd need to reflect the massive change happening during late antiquity is substantial, and as nice as it would be it's not really feasible for a mod team of our size. We could have a late game invasion or migration of some sort mirroring Genghis Khan from vanilla, but even that would likely only be implemented much further down the line. As for the reforms, for sure it would be a lot more work to have a dynamic system, but I think it would be more interesting for gameplay and perhaps more historically accurate to allow for gradual reforms. Also we've got a lot of information about reforms elsewhere in the Hellenistic world, so it makes sense for such a mechanic to be broadly accessible.
I meant cultural wise. Much as you have to discover certain things in game like onagers. Having the game start in the culture era tribal or early medieval 600-1000 years earlier would cause it to get boring rather fast as it'd take away the impact of selecting your cultural fascination with an eye towards long term planning.
As far as the reforms go like I said, I just provide the information, how you implement it is up to you, although a slow reformation of the military and cultures of the time would be more interesting. It goes back to how much work you're willing to put into it.
 

Super7700

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I meant cultural wise. Much as you have to discover certain things in game like onagers. Having the game start in the culture era tribal or early medieval 600-1000 years earlier would cause it to get boring rather fast as it'd take away the impact of selecting your cultural fascination with an eye towards long term planning.
As far as the reforms go like I said, I just provide the information, how you implement it is up to you, although a slow reformation of the military and cultures of the time would be more interesting. It goes back to how much work you're willing to put into it.

Ahh okay I see what you mean, we'll definitely have a new set of culture eras for technology, iirc we're planning something like Archaic => Classical => Hellenistic => Imperial.
 

KingStevenofEarth

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Ahh okay I see what you mean, we'll definitely have a new set of culture eras for technology, iirc we're planning something like Archaic => Classical => Hellenistic => Imperial.
Maybe a technology has to be discovered to enact the reforms? Or one to go from republic to Empire? To be honest, the vanilla game has so many historical inaccuracies across so many levels that it could do with an overhaul but that's besides the point. I've had a couple idea's for mods to better the gameplay, or increase the historical accuracy but since i don't have the knowledge needed to create a mod (I've got no coding skills, literally the only thing I can contribute to a mod is historical accuracy), I doubt that I'll ever see those come to fruition so being able to help you guys out with making sure your mod is historically accurate is fun.

One thing in the Vanilla game that drives me insane is the tendency to have their kings elected in some places like England, Scotland, Ireland, etc. That's not historically accurate. The only time the Anglo-Saxons ever met to elect a king was when the previous king died with no available heirs.
 

Gurkhal

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By the way. What is the intended end date for the mod? I know I can play without an end date if I so wish, but it would be useful with some knowledge about what period the mod has the intention to cover in terms of mechanics, flavor, historical stuff and so on.
 

Super7700

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By the way. What is the intended end date for the mod? I know I can play without an end date if I so wish, but it would be useful with some knowledge about what period the mod has the intention to cover in terms of mechanics, flavor, historical stuff and so on.

I think for now it makes sense to treat 31 BC as a soft end date for the mod, given that's when the Hellenistic period is generally considered to have ended. In the future we'll probably want to extend it, but we do run into some difficult questions - how would we model the rise of Christianity, if at all? And how would we go about creating flavour for areas that were historically Romanised but could very well remain free in-game if Rome gets destroyed early on?
 
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KingStevenofEarth

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I think for now it makes sense to treat 31 BC as a soft end date for the mod, given that's when the Hellenistic period is generally considered to have ended. In the future we'll probably want to extend it, but we do run into some difficult questions - how would we model the rise of Christianity, if at all? And how would we go about creating flavour for areas that were historically Romanised but could very well remain free in-game if Rome gets destroyed early on?
Well, as for how to model the rise of Christianity, it wasn't like there was just a massive influx of believers into the world. The Romans, and indeed many others, actually persecuted Christians for a long time. So as far as the rise of Christianity, perhaps have it start appearing slowly with a lot of hate directed towards it? I don't know which branch of Christianity came about first. My historical focus/specialty is the Roman Kingdom/Republic/Empire. I can look into it for you during my free time, but unfortunately Christmas break is over for me tomorrow, so It might take me a couple days to gather the facts on it for you.
 
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