[MOD] Apotheosis: The Hellenistic Age

[Gurkhal]

I don't expect much of what I suggest to make it into the final version, but I enjoy making these suggestion so I'll keep posting them to ensure I get them written down before I forget about them.

So, some more suggestions for the Greeks.

Sponsor poetry/the arts - Both panhellenic artists as well as local ones depending on title and culture. Panhellenic would for example be Homer and Hesiod.

Two examples for local Boiotian poets are Corinna, who for provides bonuses to counties and characters with Boiotian culture and perhaps bonus to cultural conversion/resistance to cultural conversion. Pindar, for increased relations from "vassals" towards the head of state and probably increased prestige for people who have managed to score military or athletic victories.

Great sacrifices - As decisions like in CK2 with the "blót" for the Norse.

Festivals as events - With a choice on how much to participate in them which can lead to different event chains

Membership in the Sacred Band - For homo- och bisexual characters who are "knights" which could grant some kind of bonus but perhaps also give with it increasing risk depending on how the unit fares. Like if the unit is wiped out in battle, all members naturally dies. I figure this could have some good RP potential. Same with the Spartan "Agoge" and the special behavior it seems to have fostered on the Spartans.

 

[Super7700]

I don't expect much of what I suggest to make it into the final version, but I enjoy making these suggestion so I'll keep posting them to ensure I get them written down before I forget about them.

So, some more suggestions for the Greeks.

Sponsor poetry/the arts - Both panhellenic artists as well as local ones depending on title and culture. Panhellenic would for example be Homer and Hesiod.

Two examples for local Boiotian poets are Corinna, who for provides bonuses to counties and characters with Boiotian culture and perhaps bonus to cultural conversion/resistance to cultural conversion. Pindar, for increased relations from "vassals" towards the head of state and probably increased prestige for people who have managed to score military or athletic victories.

Great sacrifices - As decisions like in CK2 with the "blót" for the Norse.

Festivals as events - With a choice on how much to participate in them which can lead to different event chains

Membership in the Sacred Band - For homo- och bisexual characters who are "knights" which could grant some kind of bonus but perhaps also give with it increasing risk depending on how the unit fares. Like if the unit is wiped out in battle, all members naturally dies. I figure this could have some good RP potential. Same with the Spartan "Agoge" and the special behavior it seems to have fostered on the Spartans.

Those are good ideas, we're definitely keen on having lots of flavour contributing to the RP side of the game - my favourite CK experiences haven't necessarily been with the most competent or virtuous rulers, but the ones who created the most interesting stories over the course of their lives, and it certainly helps if there's more events and characters for them to interact with and form relationships with. So do keep them coming!

In terms of poets, it might be more appropriate if the sponsorship relates to poets that were alive during this period - there's certainly a number of poets, scholars and philosophers who would make for interesting courtiers. I figure we could have references to Pindar and other earlier poets though I'm not quite sure how we can go about it in a way that makes historical sense.

Sacrifices and festivals will be great to have, maybe in the future we can look at tying certain practices to certain faiths or cults so you get quite the unique experience taking part in the festivals of an orgiastic mystery cult. There's even several cults in Greece that were associated with human sacrifice and cannibalism which I think would be particularly interesting to incorporate.

And that would be pretty neat to have some events & flavour for the Sacred Band - I remember in CK2 there were some shieldmaiden events where you could develop a friendship/relationship with them so we could have something that's similar but perhaps a bit more intimate. However, it may not be something we implement until later given that the circumstances that would trigger these events are quite specific (since the Sacred Band would first have to be reformed and then you'd need a character with the appropriate sexual orientation)..

The agoge is a bit of a tricky one - it would be great for flavour but since historically the heir apparent of each king didn't go through the agoge it might end up being quite rare for the player to even get the chance to go through it. Then again maybe that could actually provide an incentive for players not to min max trying to hold onto the throne. That being said, it isn't actually clear what the state of the agoge was during this period so it may be that the player has to first go through the process of restoring it, as Cleomenes III did when he was king.

 

[Gurkhal]

Those are good ideas, we're definitely keen on having lots of flavour contributing to the RP side of the game - my favourite CK experiences haven't necessarily been with the most competent or virtuous rulers, but the ones who created the most interesting stories over the course of their lives, and it certainly helps if there's more events and characters for them to interact with and form relationships with. So do keep them coming!

We think alike!

In terms of poets, it might be more appropriate if the sponsorship relates to poets that were alive during this period - there's certainly a number of poets, scholars and philosophers who would make for interesting courtiers. I figure we could have references to Pindar and other earlier poets though I'm not quite sure how we can go about it in a way that makes historical sense.

The idea with the old poets was that you sponsor present day poets to recite their works at public events and generally support their spread as opposed to sponsor long dead people directly. But I also agree that sponsoring living people would be cool, both real historical people and also such spawned by the game who in a game could become someone whose words echo across the generations.

Sacrifices and festivals will be great to have, maybe in the future we can look at tying certain practices to certain faiths or cults so you get quite the unique experience taking part in the festivals of an orgiastic mystery cult. There's even several cults in Greece that were associated with human sacrifice and cannibalism which I think would be particularly interesting to incorporate.

I agree. Not sure I believe that cannibalism was actually a thing in Greek cults beyond the rumor and mythology part of it, but a spicing of it might lead to some fun RP.

And that would be pretty neat to have some events & flavour for the Sacred Band - I remember in CK2 there were some shieldmaiden events where you could develop a friendship/relationship with them so we could have something that's similar but perhaps a bit more intimate. However, it may not be something we implement until later given that the circumstances that would trigger these events are quite specific (since the Sacred Band would first have to be reformed and then you'd need a character with the appropriate sexual orientation)..

This sounds good, but it may not be that the player needs to be a member of the Sacred Band to interact and get events involving people who are part of the Sacred Band. But yeah, probaly something for later.

The agoge is a bit of a tricky one - it would be great for flavour but since historically the heir apparent of each king didn't go through the agoge it might end up being quite rare for the player to even get the chance to go through it. Then again maybe that could actually provide an incentive for players not to min max trying to hold onto the throne. That being said, it isn't actually clear what the state of the agoge was during this period so it may be that the player has to first go through the process of restoring it, as Cleomenes III did when he was king.

True about the Spartan kings and the agogoe. What I was more thinking on is that Spartans king and also other Greeks might have to interact with Spartans who have gone through the agoge and that interaction for non-Spartans might be a bit like a hard rubbing of your face with sand papper. Not very pleasent. Not to mention the famous examples of Spartans away from Sparta getting corrupted which could also lead to some interesting RP and strategic oppertunities. Both for a expansionist Spartan king trying to keep the state together and also for the enemies of Sparta who might turn to sweet vice and soft corruption if the the spears of the Spartans are too strong to defeat.

 

[Super7700]

The idea with the old poets was that you sponsor present day poets to recite their works at public events and generally support their spread as opposed to sponsor long dead people directly. But I also agree that sponsoring living people would be cool, both real historical people and also such spawned by the game who in a game could become someone whose words echo across the generations.

Those are good points, it would certainly be interesting if you sponsored a poet at one point and then find them being referenced in events a hundred years later. I'm not too sure about the coding practicalities and it may end up being more effort than its worth, but I do like the idea for sure.

I agree. Not sure I believe that cannibalism was actually a thing in Greek cults beyond the rumor and mythology part of it, but a spicing of it might lead to some fun RP.

Yeah I'm not exactly convinced either, perhaps these cults did once have human sacrifice and cannibalism but it seems unlikely this would have survived into the Hellenistic period. Nevertheless, if I'm not mistaken there's no academic consensus on the matter yet which imo gives us some license for embellishment. Maybe one way we could do it is to limit the human-sacrifice/cannibalism side of things to characters with certain traits.

This sounds good, but it may not be that the player needs to be a member of the Sacred Band to interact and get events involving people who are part of the Sacred Band. But yeah, probaly something for later.

True about the Spartan kings and the agogoe. What I was more thinking on is that Spartans king and also other Greeks might have to interact with Spartans who have gone through the agoge and that interaction for non-Spartans might be a bit like a hard rubbing of your face with sand papper. Not very pleasent. Not to mention the famous examples of Spartans away from Sparta getting corrupted which could also lead to some interesting RP and strategic oppertunities. Both for a expansionist Spartan king trying to keep the state together and also for the enemies of Sparta who might turn to sweet vice and soft corruption if the the spears of the Spartans are too strong to defeat.

That's true I hadn't really considered the possibility of events where you interact with the affairs of the agoge/sacred band without being directly involved, that could definitely work. We've got a few ideas already for how we might handle Sparta and its issues with corruption and decadence, I'll see if we can integrate foreign interference as well.

 

[Super7700]

In the spirit of Christmas, we would like to share a small teaser of a little something we have been working on relating to City States!

 

[Gurkhal]

Great work, devs!

Here are some more idea from me in regards to the glorious Greeks of Antiquity.

Oikos

Networking - That is that when you play a character you consort can add to help you with events to become friends or end a rivalry through some backdoors diplomacy away from the two characters intended for friendship or an ended rivalry. The idea here is that it can come through events where the consort of the characters acts in inofficial channels with other actors to orchestrate the desired result.

Torn Between Loyalties - There could be interesting event chains and such from when a person married into another family is torn between demands for loyalty from both families. I think that I recall the play "Antigone", among other subjects, brings this up.

Tenets

Amazons - Either as women "knights" or as a Men-at-Arms unit, in some form or fashion Amazons should be possible to include into the game.

Old Kingdoms Returned

Knossos - Return the glories of Minoan with all manner of strange things, such as bull dancing and palaces, if the player would hold parts of Crete and so desire.

Mycenaean Seats - Same could be true that if we play as a one-man ruler with a capital and culture based in Greece, we could resurrect a kingdom from the Mycenaean world and Homeric world and so rise to new heights of glory and hybris!

Governments

Corsair/Homeric - That there's a kind of step between feudal and tribal where you can raid from the sea as Homeric heroes, the sacker of cities, and so across the Mediterranean.

Tyranny - A form of monarchy which produce very little prestige for the rulers but allows many underhanded decisions to keep hold power.

Diadochi Monarchy/Stratocratic Monarchy - In my opinion the very warlike monarchies based on the soldier-kings in the wake of Alexander the Great should have a "you've been at peace for to long" and perhaps some other mechanics to display the very militant way of the Diodochi.

 

[Super7700]

Great work, devs!

Here are some more idea from me in regards to the glorious Greeks of Antiquity.

Oikos

Networking - That is that when you play a character you consort can add to help you with events to become friends or end a rivalry through some backdoors diplomacy away from the two characters intended for friendship or an ended rivalry. The idea here is that it can come through events where the consort of the characters acts in inofficial channels with other actors to orchestrate the desired result.

Torn Between Loyalties - There could be interesting event chains and such from when a person married into another family is torn between demands for loyalty from both families. I think that I recall the play "Antigone", among other subjects, brings this up.

This is a really nice idea, We'll definitely keep it in mind for when we get to adding flavour events and the like.

Tenets

Amazons - Either as women "knights" or as a Men-at-Arms unit, in some form or fashion Amazons should be possible to include into the game.

This is interesting, though it's perhaps a bit too far away from historical plausibility - the closest we'd probably get to this is having a Sarmatian/Scythian MaA unit that includes women in its flavour description or illustration.

Old Kingdoms Returned

Knossos - Return the glories of Minoan with all manner of strange things, such as bull dancing and palaces, if the player would hold parts of Crete and so desire.

Mycenaean Seats - Same could be true that if we play as a one-man ruler with a capital and culture based in Greece, we could resurrect a kingdom from the Mycenaean world and Homeric world and so rise to new heights of glory and hybris!

Again, this might be a bit too historically implausible for us to implement - we'll probably have some decisions for restoring past glory but these will generally relate to more recent times, such as Thebes restoring a hegemonic Boeotian League or Sparta the Peloponnesian League. In the case of Crete, it would be unusual I think for a Greek realm to restore a Minoan (i.e. non-Greek) civilisation. We might still end up adding an Eteo-Cretan culture to the eastern part of the island, where a non-Greek language was spoken into the 3rd century BC, but it isn't quite clear what relationship, if any, this group had with the Minoans. Maybe they could get a decision to restore Minoan civilisation, but at that point we're verging on easter egg territory imo - it could be fun to add down the line, but we'll focus on content more directly related to the Hellenistic period first.

Governments

Corsair/Homeric - That there's a kind of step between feudal and tribal where you can raid from the sea as Homeric heroes, the sacker of cities, and so across the Mediterranean.

Tyranny - A form of monarchy which produce very little prestige for the rulers but allows many underhanded decisions to keep hold power.

Diadochi Monarchy/Stratocratic Monarchy - In my opinion the very warlike monarchies based on the soldier-kings in the wake of Alexander the Great should have a "you've been at peace for to long" and perhaps some other mechanics to display the very militant way of the Diodochi.

As with the other suggestions, we probably won't go full Homeric (though I have some ideas for flavour that might reference Homeric events or characters ), but certainly we're looking at giving some Greeks the ability to raid overseas, such as the Cretans and perhaps the Aetolians. A tyranny government is actually already in the works as part of the new city-state mechanics we teased above - the tyrant will enjoy much greater freedoms than city-state leaders elsewhere, but because their realm is incredibly prone to instability and popular uprisings, their rule will tend to be short-lived unless they can establish themselves as legitimate kings.

We've got a few ideas floating around for the diadochi kingdoms and how we could differentiate them from vanilla feudal, and a greater focus on waging war and gaining prestige could be one way of doing that. Perhaps kings who have proven themselves can access increasingly powerful CBs, with certain CBs only being available against other Diadochi kingdoms. Also, one idea we've talked about is adding court mechanics that would encompass things like court politics, regencies, honorary titles and even coups. Bear in mind these things won't be added anytime soon, as our focus is currently on fleshing out the city-states.

 

[Werson]

This looks incredible! Now I'm no expert on Greece nor this timeline, but wouldn't a more time-fitting name for the "Spartan" culture be "Laconian?" I'm pretty sure they were known as that, both the city-state, the people, and the region. I might be wrong though! Once again, this looks incredible, and might allow me to play in these sort of times after Imperator failed to capture my attention.

 

[Super7700]

This looks incredible! Now I'm no expert on Greece nor this timeline, but wouldn't a more time-fitting name for the "Spartan" culture be "Laconian?" I'm pretty sure they were known as that, both the city-state, the people, and the region. I might be wrong though! Once again, this looks incredible, and might allow me to play in these sort of times after Imperator failed to capture my attention.

Thank you so much for your kind words, I'm glad you're looking forward to it! And yes you're probably right - the name Sparta was used for the city itself but the people tended to be called Lacedaemonian or Laconian. However, we have actually updated our culture setup since posting that image, merging a number of cultures so now Messenian, Spartan and Cretan share a southern Dorian culture. For this culture we're currently using the constructed name "Myrtoan" (based on the nearby Myrtoan sea), though we're happy to hear suggestions for alternative names.

 

[Werson]

Thank you so much for your kind words, I'm glad you're looking forward to it! And yes you're probably right - the name Sparta was used for the city itself but the people tended to be called Lacedaemonian or Laconian. However, we have actually updated our culture setup since posting that image, merging a number of cultures so now Messenian, Spartan and Cretan share a southern Dorian culture. For this culture we're currently using the constructed name "Myrtoan" (based on the nearby Myrtoan sea), though we're happy to hear suggestions for alternative names.

Is there a particular reason all those cultures were merged? Spartans in general considered themselves distinct from the people who comprised the majority in their own city-state (Helots), and had a particularly distinct culture. Was it based on the Greek dialects?

 

[Gurkhal]

One radical idea is actually to have two cultures connected with Sparta; Laconian (for the periokoi) and a Spartiate culture (for those going through the agoge) which could both show the difference between the Spartiates and the Perioikoi. It could also explain why those who have gone through the agoge might feel a bonding with each other from a shared experience.

And possibly it might be easier to tie specific events and such to a single Spartiate culture than having it tied to a bunch of modifiers.

 

[KingStevenofEarth]

I'm looking forward to this mod. I can't wait to play as Rome in it's earlier days most of all, although I'm also looking forward to playing as Sparta and building an Empire to rival anything the Romans ever had.

 

[Super7700]

Is there a particular reason all those cultures were merged? Spartans in general considered themselves distinct from the people who comprised the majority in their own city-state (Helots), and had a particularly distinct culture. Was it based on the Greek dialects?

We've spent a long time discussing the culture setup and this is eventually what we settled on:

We decided to merge several of the cultures for three key reasons:

• Once we expand beyond Greece into areas that are poorly documented it would be practically impossible to maintain this level of granularity, leading to inconsistent outcomes where Greece is full of micro-cultures but everywhere else has culture blobs
• CK3's cultural head mechanics lend themselves better to larger cultures where you have to compete to become the strongest ruler of that culture - under our original setup quite a significant portion of independent rulers were also culture heads. Considering the previous point, it wouldn't be great for balance either.
• It was beginning to get quite messy, especially once we got to the Greek colonies - for example, Thera and Melos in the Cyclades were founded by Laconians, yet by the Hellenistic period they had established their own identities, to the point that giving them Spartan/Laconian culture would be about as accurate as Crete having Spartan culture. Under our previous setup, the only decent solution would've been to have a Cycladic Doric culture with only 2-3 counties. Now extend this logic to the rest of the Greek world, and you can see how messy it would be.

Our new setup takes several factors into account, including linguistic, cultural & political affinity. Since Messenia had spent centuries under Spartan rule, and a number of Cretan cities had close ties to Sparta, it made sense in my opinion to group these. Oxylian (named after the mythical Oxylus) covers the areas that spoke a northwest-Doric dialect, and during our period became mostly united under the Aetolian League.

One radical idea is actually to have two cultures connected with Sparta; Laconian (for the periokoi) and a Spartiate culture (for those going through the agoge) which could both show the difference between the Spartiates and the Perioikoi. It could also explain why those who have gone through the agoge might feel a bonding with each other from a shared experience.

And possibly it might be easier to tie specific events and such to a single Spartiate culture than having it tied to a bunch of modifiers.

Whilst it could be nice differentiating Spartiates & Perioikoi, imo it would open up a can of worms - Sparta was just one of many places in the ancient world which had a formalised class system, so for the sake of consistency we'd ideally want to model it elsewhere - not be an easy undertaking to say the least!

 

[Super7700]

I'm looking forward to this mod. I can't wait to play as Rome in it's earlier days most of all, although I'm also looking forward to playing as Sparta and building an Empire to rival anything the Romans ever had.

Thank you so much! Hopefully we can do Rome & Sparta justice

 

[KingStevenofEarth]

Thank you so much! Hopefully we can do Rome & Sparta justice

As a history lover and student, I'm seeking my PhD in History, and Roman history especially has always fascinated me. If you need any help with that please let me know, I would gladly extend my knowledge of the time period to you. Will there be a mechanic that allows users create legions while playing as Rome or to station legions elsewhere instead of disbanding and raising them constantly? As the Roman Kingdom/Republic/Empire grew they were able to maintain/gain land because they had a habit of having Rome surrounded by Legions, but also of stationing multiple legions at strategic locations throughout their holdings.

 

[Super7700]

As a history lover and student, I'm seeking my PhD in History, and Roman history especially has always fascinated me. If you need any help with that please let me know, I would gladly extend my knowledge of the time period to you. Will there be a mechanic that allows users create legions while playing as Rome or to station legions elsewhere instead of disbanding and raising them constantly? As the Roman Kingdom/Republic/Empire grew they were able to maintain/gain land because they had a habit of having Rome surrounded by Legions, but also of stationing multiple legions at strategic locations throughout their holdings.

I'm glad to hear that! Our first release will be focused on Greece and Asia Minor but once we get to the Italian peninsula we could definitely do with your knowledge. Legions are something we haven't yet discussed as a team, I imagine it will be one of the more challenging mechanics to get right. We could possibly use event troops as a way to avoid having to constantly disband and raise them, though we'd also need to figure out the circumstances for establishing legions (a technology maybe?) as well as finding a way to incorporate the political aspect (land grants to veterans, army loyalties etc). If you've got any ideas for how we could approach this, I'd be very interested in hearing them.

 

[KingStevenofEarth]

I'm glad to hear that! Our first release will be focused on Greece and Asia Minor but once we get to the Italian peninsula we could definitely do with your knowledge. Legions are something we haven't yet discussed as a team, I imagine it will be one of the more challenging mechanics to get right. We could possibly use event troops as a way to avoid having to constantly disband and raise them, though we'd also need to figure out the circumstances for establishing legions (a technology maybe?) as well as finding a way to incorporate the political aspect (land grants to veterans, army loyalties etc). If you've got any ideas for how we could approach this, I'd be very interested in hearing them.

In regards to how it could be done, I'm not entirely sure as I'm not all that good with computers and don't have the first clue as to how the modding process works, but I think that having it as an already discovered technology-given that the first known legion was already ancient by this time in history. As far as how you would work it where they aren't constantly being disbanded-maybe an event after each war where you can choose to station your known legions-with the option to create an additional legion for every duchy conquered? Maybe county? Over the history of the Roman Kingdom/Republic/Empire, the Legions made up the biggest bulk of Roman forces and typically outnumbered any opponent even without bringing their full forces to bear, so maybe a new legion per county would be better? Either way a decision for you guys.

Of course legions would require much more activity overall as there would be several levels of command that would need to be appointed. I can go into the make up of the legions deeply if you want, and If you chose to do legions, I would much prefer to give you all the knowledge on them which is a lot. Honestly the way the legions worked is probably one of the more well known aspects of Roman Culture given their semi-constant state of war and expansion, ample evidence of the inner working of their military forces survived. One of the 'blind spots' of Roman Military history is of course the ninth legion hispania. Surviving records indicate that they were involved from the beginning of the invasion of britain in 43AD, and were stationed in york until Emperor Hadrian replaced them with the newly formed sixth legion and ordered the construction of Hadrian's wall. There was a surviving manuscript that mentioned the ninth some years later in parts of what is now known as the netherlands, although records indicate it was not the full legion. The common theory is that after suffering a huge defeat, which circumstantial evidence supports, the wall was constructed the north of Britain wrote off, and that the members of the ninth in the legion in the netherlands consisted of no more than two cohorts, so roughly 1200 men or less.

But I digress, I think an event where it says something along the lines of 'You have gained more land now, and must choose to properly position your soldiers to hold onto it.' or 'You have gained more land and can create a new legion to help secure your empire.' or 'you have won the war with XXXX, some soldiers displayed exceptional valor and you have the ability to reward them with land or titles of their own.

Then you would also need the ability to appoint Governors, although they weren't called that, to oversee captured lands the further from Rome one got.

 

[Super7700]

In regards to how it could be done, I'm not entirely sure as I'm not all that good with computers and don't have the first clue as to how the modding process works, but I think that having it as an already discovered technology-given that the first known legion was already ancient by this time in history. As far as how you would work it where they aren't constantly being disbanded-maybe an event after each war where you can choose to station your known legions-with the option to create an additional legion for every duchy conquered? Maybe county? Over the history of the Roman Kingdom/Republic/Empire, the Legions made up the biggest bulk of Roman forces and typically outnumbered any opponent even without bringing their full forces to bear, so maybe a new legion per county would be better? Either way a decision for you guys.

Of course legions would require much more activity overall as there would be several levels of command that would need to be appointed. I can go into the make up of the legions deeply if you want, and If you chose to do legions, I would much prefer to give you all the knowledge on them which is a lot. Honestly the way the legions worked is probably one of the more well known aspects of Roman Culture given their semi-constant state of war and expansion, ample evidence of the inner working of their military forces survived. One of the 'blind spots' of Roman Military history is of course the ninth legion hispania. Surviving records indicate that they were involved from the beginning of the invasion of britain in 43AD, and were stationed in york until Emperor Hadrian replaced them with the newly formed sixth legion and ordered the construction of Hadrian's wall. There was a surviving manuscript that mentioned the ninth some years later in parts of what is now known as the netherlands, although records indicate it was not the full legion. The common theory is that after suffering a huge defeat, which circumstantial evidence supports, the wall was constructed the north of Britain wrote off, and that the members of the ninth in the legion in the netherlands consisted of no more than two cohorts, so roughly 1200 men or less.

But I digress, I think an event where it says something along the lines of 'You have gained more land now, and must choose to properly position your soldiers to hold onto it.' or 'You have gained more land and can create a new legion to help secure your empire.' or 'you have won the war with XXXX, some soldiers displayed exceptional valor and you have the ability to reward them with land or titles of their own.

Then you would also need the ability to appoint Governors, although they weren't called that, to oversee captured lands the further from Rome one got.

I might be mistaken, but from what I've read I got the impression that at this mod's start date (275 BC) the Romans didn't yet have a standing army - they had the four legions (and would raise additional ones if the situation demanded it) but these were levied from the population as opposed to being long-term volunteers. If this is the case, the early army can probably be modelled in game with the existing MaA mechanics - they're trained troops and can be raised fairly quickly, but they're not yet permanent armies that can be stationed across the realm. From there it seems the legions with permanent stations that you're referring to would only emerge later in the game once the Romans have expanded beyond Italy and need to maintain permanent garrisons on their borders.

Those events would make sense, and definitely it would be good to tie it into a regional governor system which would then open up interesting possibilities such as legions becoming loyal to their commander instead of the republic, or a wealthy governor raising legions of their own without senatorial approval in order to pursue their ambitions.

 

[Paciaire]

By 275 BC Romans(and Latins)+socii were articulated in two consular armies essentially, Romans+Latins at the center and socii as wings.

Despite there were effectively "legions", they didn't really worked as those from Marius era...etc

I can't recall the exact name of this disposition, which could be translated in game as garrison increase for a colony(and there were few back then, mostly locking strategical points): a few hundreds of citizens would settle a given place acquired by treaty, then these men were appointed to defend it permanently.

Edit: it was vocatio militiae

 

[Super7700]

By 275 BC Romans(and Latins)+socii were articulated in two consular armies essentially, Romans+Latins at the center and socii as wings.

Despite there were effectively "legions", they didn't really worked as those from Marius era...etc

I can't recall the exact name of this disposition, which could be translated in game as garrison increase for a colony(and there were few back then, mostly locking strategical points): a few hundreds of citizens would settle a given place acquired by treaty, then these men were appointed to defend it permanently.

Edit: it was vocatio militiae

Thanks for that information, in the case of the colonies we're actually considering introducing a colony holding which would be focused on garrison strength and culture conversion. It would also be available for other cultures that practiced colonisation, so we can represent the klerouchoi and katoikoi in Asia and Egypt for instance